Guild Wars 2

I can’t think of one single positive thing, this could have. In the best case it isn’t used at all. In the worst case a dominating server has an even easier time at rolling over his outnumbered opponents. You might not care, because you don’t have to deal with an upgraded sm too often. But there are server, which are heavily outnumbered almost every match for weeks, months or even a whole year. No need to try it, to know, it won’t have any positive influence.

forum bug … 123

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I can’t think of one single positive thing, this could have. In the best case it isn’t used at all. In the worst case a dominating server has an even easier time at rolling over his outnumbered opponents. You might not care, because you don’t have to deal with an upgraded sm too often. But there are server, which are heavily outnumbered almost every match for weeks, months or even a whole year. No need to try it, to know, it won’t have any positive influence.

We are currently 10th, facing the 1st and 6th-rank server this week.

We still flip SM. Often with the outmanned buff.

Heck, when I had an account on ET, I flipped SM with three others. (Yes, when it was in third-bottom, and yes, during “prime” NA).

I understand the worry. Give it a try first. My guess it will be a novelty that gets used constantly at first, then is forgotten about.

Rank says nothing. The difference in rating/population between Rank 1 and 10 is smaller than the difference between rank 16 and 17/18. Yet those server have to face each other over and over again
It is not always possible to flip sm frequently enough to prevent an upgrade. And if people have the chance to use it, they will. Why should they stop and “forget” about it?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Rank says nothing. The difference in rating/population between Rank 1 and 10 is smaller than the difference between rank 16 and 17/18. Yet those server have to face each other over and over again
It is not always possible to flip sm frequently enough to prevent an upgrade. And if people have the chance to use it, they will. Why should they stop and “forget” about it?

Rank says nothing? Orly? Interesting. So you’re saying there’s little population difference between the top server and the 10th?

Did you not see me say I was also on the bottom server and flipped an upgraded SM with three other people in prime on NA too? ET was 22nd at the time I did it. It’s my second account.

Or is it just better to argue instead of actually doing?

I have already soloed sm during prime time, how does this matter? It can be flipped easily if nobody defends it, but thats usually not the case.

I still haven’t seen an argument for this stealth fountain other than “don’t worry, it won’t be that bad” …

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I have already soloed sm during prime time, how does this matter? It can be flipped easily if nobody defends it, but thats usually not the case.

I still haven’t seen an argument for this stealth fountain other than “don’t worry, it won’t be that bad” …

The main argument for why it’s bad is that “SM never flips” and gives an advantage to the bigger server.

Now you say you’ve soloed it.

Imagine what you can do with three more people vs people defending.

The main argument for why it’s bad is that it only benefits an already dominating server, making unbalanced matches even worse. Idk why this is so hard to understand.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The main argument for why it’s bad is that it only benefits an already dominating server, making unbalanced matches even worse. Idk why this is so hard to understand.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I have already soloed sm during prime time..

Idk why this is so hard to understand

UmbraNoctis.1907:

[…]if nobody defends it, but thats usually not the case.[…]

Have you tried the stealth fountain yet? Nope.

Have you been unable to flip SM during prime? Nope.

This feels like whining for the sake of whining.

As I said, Piken is currently 10th vs the TOP server in EU. We STILL flip SM. You chose to ignore the fact that population is definitely different from top server to 10th server. You have indicated it’s not impossible for your server either.

The Piken-Deso-Jade-match is fairly close. Those server obviously don’t have a too big population gap, despite the big rank difference.
Other matches are not that close, and even if sm get flipped 2-3 times a week, most of the time it is fully upgraded, because one server is outnumbering the other two by such a large margin, that it is impossible to flip it. You don’t have to deal with this situation, but i have for about a 3/4 year now. You don’t know, what i’m talking about, but i know. Fully upgraded sm is not fun to play against, and this change will make it worse.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The Piken-Deso-Jade-match is fairly close. Those server obviously don’t have a too big population gap, despite the big rank difference.
Other matches are not that close, and even if sm get flipped 2-3 times a week, most of the time it is fully upgraded, because one server is outnumbering the other two by such a large margin, that it is impossible to flip it. You don’t have to deal with this situation, but i have for about a 3/4 year now. You don’t know, what i’m talking about, but i know. Fully upgraded sm is not fun to play against, and this change will make it worse.

Hahhaha! You’re kidding right?

Half of SFR transferred to Deso, plus they got a boatload of new F2P players before the big SFR evacuation occurred. They easily outnumber every server out here by 3 to 1. More so at night.

And we STILL flip SM with a massive Deso blob on the map and the outmanned buff painfully up.

In fact, when I first got to EU I watched Pikeners go rampaging up to SM after we’d just been wiped out of Overlook by a massive SFR night blob. I yelled out in map “what? are you guys crazy?! We are outmanned!” They laughed. And then flipped SM. I have never doubted them since.

You shouldn’t doubt your server either.

So yep. I have had to deal with this. For 2-3 years.

So your server constantly flips sm, which is defended by 3-5-times of numbers and plenty of siege every single time? No? Not heavily defended? Well, just like i said, you don’t know, what i’m talking about.
And i’m still waiting for a reason, why this stealth fountain would be a good idea.

Btw, i have a second account in gold league, played against every single server up there, and the difference between those server is not that big.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

So your server constantly flips sm, which is defended by 3-5-times of numbers and plenty of siege every single time? No? Not heavily defended? Well, just like i said, you don’t know, what i’m talking about.
And i’m still waiting for a reason, why this stealth fountain would be a good idea.

I listed several good reasons on the first page. It’s a new challenge.

And yep, SM is constantly flipped — even when we’re the bigger server, it gets flipped by other smaller servers. Augury Rock is particularly talented for ninja wall demolition at SM.

What server are you on by the way that you feel you’re so weak you cannot flip SM?

I play on Miller’s Sound. Just look at the EU T6 matchups of the last year and you might get an idea, what i’m talking about.

Ninja’ing towers/keeps and stealth ganking players isn’t a challenge. Doing this against outumbered opponents is even less a challenge …

On the good side if they dont actually fix any of the cheese ways to get into SM flipping it aint so hard.

I play on a server which has always been stacked in an off-hours timezone. Quite frequently during the mid week, I will log on to find SMC T3 waypointed.

I have absolutely no doubt that there will be even less fights and and overall activity in WvW as a result of these changes, in those timezones. If I were the enemy, and I kept being blasted from the face of the earth by stealthed groups that are larger than mine, I would not remain on map very long.

After reading some of the replies that are say that this idea isn’t that bad, I can conclude that their argument consists of:

SM is constantly getting flipped, so the chances of this terrible idea coming into play is negligible.

Even if this Idea (at best) is only active for a tiny amount of the match up, lets say 3 hours per week. (Lets face it, it will be more than that)Thats 3 hours of abuse and boredom before SM is flipped again. Why put in an idea that in the best case scenario will still have a negative impact on the game…?

I suppose we are ignoring the arguments that:

1: 2 minutes is a rather short time.
2: Stealth breaks when starting to fight.
3: A bunch of mesmers can already do the more or less the same thing as this, and clearly it haven’t been a major problem yet.

Doug.4930:

After reading some of the replies that are say that this idea isn’t that bad, I can conclude that their argument consists of:

SM is constantly getting flipped, so the chances of this terrible idea coming into play is negligible.

Even if this Idea (at best) is only active for a tiny amount of the match up, lets say 3 hours per week. (Lets face it, it will be more than that)Thats 3 hours of abuse and boredom before SM is flipped again. Why put in an idea that in the best case scenario will still have a negative impact on the game…?

What’s the argument against it, other than the stronger server will potentially abuse it, and SM will never be flipped … which we all know isn’t true, regardless the tier (some have even flipped it solo)?

ANY combat is insta-reveal.

Stop letting it defeat you before you even try it.

Jayne.9251

What’s the argument against it, other than the stronger server will potentially abuse it […]

Isn’t this enough?

Btw, why do you even care about a mechanic, which won’t affect you, because sm is constantly flipped?

Because I spend 90% of my time scouting and I see this as a cool new challenge to beat.

If sm isn’t upgraded, there is no new challenge to beat.

lordkrall.7241:

I suppose we are ignoring the arguments that:

1: 2 minutes is a rather short time.
2: Stealth breaks when starting to fight.
3: A bunch of mesmers can already do the more or less the same thing as this, and clearly it haven’t been a major problem yet.

One of the good things about trying to take sm? It is very easy to get away from. So a mesmer stealth doesnt matter. It is at most what 7 seconds? Enough to jump a wall or run out an exit for the surprise. Still if you are paying attention it is still fairly easy to disengage from that.

What isnt so easy? When the whole zerg stealths behind you and pins your whole group to the wall. I honestly expect this to be the new troll move with the fountain. No no let them almost get the gate down then we willcrush them against it when they have no where to run. I know i know, counter play! On the outmatched servers the counter play will probably involve the borderlands.

lordkrall.7241:

I suppose we are ignoring the arguments that:

1: 2 minutes is a rather short time.
2: Stealth breaks when starting to fight.
3: A bunch of mesmers can already do the more or less the same thing as this, and clearly it haven’t been a major problem yet.

1: As many people who have commented will attest to, 2 minutes from SM is enough time to move an entire zerg to any point on the map undetected.
2: I assume you mean stealth breaks when you land an attack? In that case yes. Why a zerg that is trying to sneak up to a tower/keep etc would initiate combat whilst safely in stealth is beyond me in a PPT system.
3: No, they can’t. If you can post/make a video of around 5-6 mesmers stealthing 80 or more people for a complete and solid two minutes, I will concede this point.

Jayne.9251:

Doug.4930:

After reading some of the replies that are say that this idea isn’t that bad, I can conclude that their argument consists of:

SM is constantly getting flipped, so the chances of this terrible idea coming into play is negligible.

Even if this Idea (at best) is only active for a tiny amount of the match up, lets say 3 hours per week. (Lets face it, it will be more than that)Thats 3 hours of abuse and boredom before SM is flipped again. Why put in an idea that in the best case scenario will still have a negative impact on the game…?

What’s the argument against it, other than the stronger server will potentially abuse it, and SM will never be flipped … which we all know isn’t true, regardless the tier (some have even flipped it solo)?

ANY combat is insta-reveal.

Stop letting it defeat you before you even try it.

As I said in my post, the idea wont make SM unflippable, it will simply make for poor and painful game play UNTIL it is flipped. In other words, while this upgrade is active for any given amount of time, it will have a negative effect on the environment in WvW. Whether a server retains this upgrade for 5 mins or a week is irrelevant. We’re either looking at either 5 minutes of pain, or a week of pain.

Why add a mechanic that most players are going to detest? Even if its rarely used?

Any Combat is Insta-reveal is incorrect. Only if the person in stealth attacks an enemy will they be revealed, which as I explained above would be illogical to the extreme in most cases.

Its less about letting it defeat me, and more about avoiding the virtually impossible slog needed to defeat it. For instance; a PU perplex condi mesmer is a terrible and broken build in a 1v1. However it can be defeated given the right circumstances. However it would be better for most players involved if it didn’t exist at all. Much like this stealth fountain.

lordkrall.7241:

I suppose we are ignoring the arguments that:

1: 2 minutes is a rather short time.
2: Stealth breaks when starting to fight.
3: A bunch of mesmers can already do the more or less the same thing as this, and clearly it haven’t been a major problem yet.

1. Two minutes is sufficient to get from a fountain to ANYWHERE in EBG. It is ample time to place your 10 man gank squad around a group of two to ensure there is no escape.

2. Correct. However, if a large force is in range of a smaller force enough to initiate combat, the smaller force is already royally kittened.

3. Veil lasts three seconds traited on a 90 second cooldown, and requires your force to bottleneck through the veil itself, and also leaves evidence of their passage by the veil’s particle effects. Mass invis lasts 7.5 seconds traited, on a 90 second cooldown, and has a huge blast particle effect and obvious telegraph.

Calculating it out, a Mesmer can provide 11.6% stealth uptime (traited with PU), with the absolute maximum chain stealth being 10.5 seconds, in addition to the drawbacks mentioned above.

SM invis fountains give 50% uptime on stealth by themselves, achieved by simply walking into a fountain, and provide 120 seconds of stealth chained with absolutely no drawback. This stealth is 11.4 TIMES LONGER than any continuous stealth a mesmer could ever hope to output. Thus, you would need twelve mesmers to cast their skills both in perfect timing and in perfect order in order to maintain 120 seconds of straight stealth for an arbitrary sized group of players.
This is also ignoring the fact that veils give away your groups position every 10 seconds.

How is this anything like a group of mesmers?

Today. Prime time. Havoc squad took it.

Doug.4930:

Any Combat is Insta-reveal is incorrect. Only if the person in stealth attacks an enemy will they be revealed, which as I explained above would be illogical to the extreme in most cases.

Aren’t you saying the same thing as me? You attack, you lose stealth. That’s what I said. Seems that’s what you’re saying too.

That means attacking anything — including doors, sentries, butterflies, other players.

And one guy is insta-revealed and gets aoe’d then the rest of his teammates magically appear because aoe puts a player into .. wait for it .. combat. Well I guess max five players per aoe, technically.

Thanks for proving, that this change won’t affect balanced matchups.

Now go to T6 and try to flip this thing with your “havoc squad”. Keep in mind, a 40+ man blob will show up as soon you touch a wall or door. Good luck.

Edit: You don’t get revealed if you are put into combat. You only get revealed if you deal dmg.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Thanks for proving, that this change won’t affect balanced matchups.

Now go to T6 and try to flip this thing with your “havoc squad”. Keep in mind, a 40+ man blob will show up as soon you touch a wall or door. Good luck.

Did you not see the outmanned buff? I put a big red arrow over it to identify it.

How is that balanced?

Deso and JS are currently running 40-50 man blobs each on map. It’s why we’re, uh, outmanned.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Edit: You don’t get revealed if you are put into combat. You only get revealed if you deal dmg.

Dear me, you love to argue don’t you?

“Revealed is an effect applied when stealth is broken, for example by entering combat or exiting a Shadow Refuge circle prematurely. "

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

It doesn’t matter, how much or big blobs are running arround, as long the don’t defend and upgrade sm. Which they obviousely didn’t. Maybe because they were busy fighting each other.

Also you are ticking for 260. You may be outnumbered on EB at this time, but most likely not in general. And the outnumbered buff doesn’t show, by how much you are outnumbered. Somebody will always have this buff, regardless of how balanced a match is.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

It doesn’t matter, how much or big blobs are running arround, as long the don’t defend and upgrade sm. Which they obviousely didn’t. Maybe because they were busy fighting each other.

Also you are ticking for 260. You may be outnumbered on EB at this time, but most likely not in general. And the outnumbered buff doesn’t show, by how much you are outnumbered.

Y’know I heard rumour that the Internet breeds people who will argue regardless of facts presented to them.

Last time I’ll reply because apparently it’s going nowhere. You believe what you want to believe and remain stuck, instead of helping yourself and your server out.

The wiki is wrong. Never seen somebody stealthing during combat? Do you even play the game?
And which facts are you talking about? Nobody says, you can’t take an undefended sm. You haven’t proved yet, to be able to flip sm with low numbers, regardless of how many ppl are defending it.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The wiki is wrong. Never seen somebody stealthing during combat? Do you even play the game?
And which facts are you talking about? Nobody says, you can’t take an undefended sm. You haven’t proved yet, to be able to flip sm with low numbers, regardless of how many ppl are defending it.

Oh dear me.

People go into stealth during combat because it’s a class skill.

The stealth from the fountain in SM is like a buff, it has a toggle on/off. You cannot recast it — you have to run back to get the buff if you lose it.

Sorry, I replied this one last time because it seems to be an understanding issue of how it functions. Hopefully that clears it up.

The video says nothing about a special buff. Or did i missed something (if yes, which minute? – I just watched the part with the fountain at ~ 9 min). It seems to apply the usual stealth. The fountain itself has a cooldown, just like stealth skills have a cooldown. Nothing special there.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The video says nothing about a special buff. Or did i missed something (if yes, which minute? – I just watched the part with the fountain at ~ 9 min). It seems to apply the usual stealth. The fountain itself has a cooldown, just like stealth skills have a cooldown. Nothing special there.

Hahahaha. You’re starting to be really funny now.

Can you recast the stealth from the fountain if you get revealed outside of SM?

Nope.

How is stealth revealed? By entering combat — per the wiki.

How do you get the stealth back again?

You have to run back to SM and run through the fountain.

So it’s like a buff. If you enter combat, you lose it.

That means if you get tagged by aoe, you enter combat and get revealed. That includes AC aoe, and other tools players have to distribute damage. Heck, I bet any of the class pulls would do it, too.

Sorry, I know you really really want to make this more powerful than it is, but that’s all there is to it.

I truly hope that helps this time.

Again – the wiki is wrong. You get revealed if you deal direct dmg or through special reveal abilities (stealth trap, engi trait, …). You don’t get revealed if you enter combat. Best example is condi trapper thief who can kill ppl without being visible/revealed ever.

Soooo basically WvW will have the new mode PaP, Player avoiding Player. Why did we need more stealth ? I mean I get it for engagements in open field but this ? Why ? how is this good for WvW ? There is no need for this.

Why would anybody support a 2 min mass invis fountain in EBG? I don’t get it.

It’s mind boggling, once again Anet has shown how out of touch they are with WvW. There is literally zero need for this and won’t do anything but cause complaints.

Jayne.9251:

Have you tried the stealth fountain yet? Nope.

Have you been unable to flip SM during prime? Nope.

This feels like whining for the sake of whining.

I don’t need to cut off my arm to know it’s a bad idea and I don’t need to have my angus stretched wide open to know unlimited 2min stealth is an equally terrible one.

And this doesn’t even just apply to zergs. it also applies to gank squads that are already bad enough. prepare yourself because you’re going to be jumped… a lot.

lordkrall.7241:

I suppose we are ignoring the arguments that:

1: 2 minutes is a rather short time.
2: Stealth breaks when starting to fight.
3: A bunch of mesmers can already do the more or less the same thing as this, and clearly it haven’t been a major problem yet.

Your point #1 is “ignored” because it’s borderline trolling to pretend such a thing. The game mode already has too much stealth and all they do is add even more and more and more.

Your #2 is irrelevant to the problem it poses.

Your #3 is only making something bad worse. Now it doesn’t require many character working together. It’s available to all and much more potent…

vespers.1759:

Jayne.9251:

Have you tried the stealth fountain yet? Nope.

Have you been unable to flip SM during prime? Nope.

This feels like whining for the sake of whining.

I don’t need to cut off my arm to know it’s a bad idea and I don’t need to have my angus stretched wide open to know unlimited 2min stealth is an equally terrible one.

And this doesn’t even just apply to zergs. it also applies to gank squads that are already bad enough. prepare yourself because you’re going to be jumped… a lot.

That’s not nice to do to cows.

If it’s crap it’s crap. And you have reason to call out Anet.

But at least TRY the crap first?

Then you have an experiential means of criticizing.

I could wind up hating it too. Dunno. But going to give it a fair go first — and I’m going to be just that stubborn enough to learn how to counter and master it.

you just have to accept that the WvW we know and luv is dead and everything becomes alright.

Synosius.9876:

you just have to accept that the WvW we know and luv is dead and everything becomes alright.

Considering that WvW is what keeps me playing…

what I mean is that we joined guilds and made friends based on the mechanics of wvw. for example anet takes away the arrow cart and our defense groups disband. now the defense groups are gone the scout network cant justify their time sitting around in towers.

take this a step further, now that structures auto upgrade those tireless souls who walked yaks will go away. I know on my server we had pairs of players who would do this. maybe they will find something else to do together, maybe their friendship was based on necessity.

wvw will still exist after but you might not recognize it.

Synosius.9876:

what I mean is that we joined guilds and made friends based on the mechanics of wvw. for example anet takes away the arrow cart and our defense groups disband. now the defense groups are gone the scout network cant justify their time sitting around in towers.

take this a step further, now that structures auto upgrade those tireless souls who walked yaks will go away. I know on my server we had pairs of players who would do this. maybe they will find something else to do together, maybe their friendship was based on necessity.

wvw will still exist after but you might not recognize it.

That is the least we can say…

Interesting idea, but I would drop it to about 20-30 seconds. That way it will allow SM defenders to ambush anyone hitting the door. That would be good for a laugh but not be game breaking. Being able to stealth all the way to an enemy keep and drop rams before being revealed seems excessive.

Where this could really go wrong is on crowded servers. For example, on Maguuma, our problem is getting SBI to leave their keep and come out and fight. They will be even less inclined to do this if they think a stealthed blob will come out of nowhere and massacre them.

….stealthed chilled to the bone….un breakable 2second stun that applies chill