Guild Wars 2

The original WvW system required manual input to start upgrades. This required defenders to be on the map to nurse the structures along. It also had problems – cost and trolling to name two – but if you didn’t look after your BL you got paper structures. One or two defenders could tend a whole BL (and gave roamers a running target…)

The post HoT system made everything automatic – this changed the emphasis completely: no need for defenders at all. It was also a pain for attackers who could do nothing to stop the upgrades (you could delay them but not stop them) so you’d log in and find yourself facing fully fortified everything. As an attacker the best you could hope for was run a big enough group to ignore the upgrade status or flip stuff quickly if you could catch it in time. As a defender the only time you visit a camp/tower/keep is if you see swords on it, and then the challenge is to get there in time to do anything about it.

The updated post HoT system means the emphasis on action still lies with the attackers. You must kill the dolyaks to postpone upgrades – indefinitely if you keep killing the yaks I guess. Still no human input needed from the defending side.

The thing is, I think the original system makes more sense. If there was no one on to start upgrades then you had a paper BL. Let’s face it, the upgrades benefit the defending server and should be their responsibility.

The new system requires an attacker at each objective killing the yaks coming from each direction. To be honest this is great if you want an excuse to get Yak-Slapper but beyond that who’s going to hang around to just keep killing the yaks? As soon as you think you can take the camp/tower/keep you’ll do it and move on.

I can’t really see the advantage tbh. Blobs will still take stuff with relative ease whatever the upgrade status. Roamers will either take stuff if they can or move on or maybe kill yaks while waiting for reinforcements. The only real change to game play is that the whole auto upgrade process is slower by default.

At least with a manually started upgrade there was a reason for defenders to be on the map, and that’s when you get people calling for help to repel an attack and that leads to more fights. The current version of the upgrade system still does not require defenders to be present on the map – and I think the game play is the poorer for it.

Well, people have always killed yaks regardless of yakslapper or not. Personally, I stopped caring when the new changes came along and yaks didn’t matter as much. Also, defenders were escorting yaks very commonly before HoT and while a few people still do that, it just doesn’t feel nearly as worthwhile.

I think the main thing is that it’d be easier to deal with cleanup should an overwhelming karma train roll over your land. It doesn’t seem like much now, but it’s much easier to backcap paper structures than it is reinforced by a lot with only 2-3 people. Before they roll elsewhere, it is often the case that the only thing you can do is kill dolyaks and maybe take camps.

Of course, atm, it seems like the requirements for upgrade are rather high and a bit towards the other extreme atm.

But I have to say I won’t miss waking up and seeing the karma train left behind a stream of t3 structures that they really didn’t work for at all. Now a few people that log in now and then during that time frame can help prevent some of that.

I actually like it more since I was one of the few people that ran around and spent my money to upgrade stuff.

Old way I would run around maps and start upgrades in towers that had full supplies, go out roaming, ninja camps and kill some yaks.. Go back to check our side and find out that nobody started the next upgrades and once again towers had full supplies.. All those wasted yaks because only a few people actually took care of the upgrades while everyone else ran around on a tag. There are still people defending/babysitting towers.

Plus trolls used to order guards etc etc when you needed those supplies or order a wp with 0 supplies in your keep and it would never finish leaving you with no supplies for siege if an attack came. Not to mention the many arguments and name calling when someone tried to be helpful and order an upgrade but got scolded for doing so because it wasn’t in the correct order in someone else’s eyes.

The structures require no defenders if there are no attackers. It is the attackers’ responsibility to cause people to have to sacrifice their time to defend. This is completely fair.
Managing a tower on an empty map is never fun. By allowing an unassaulted tower to upgrade without somebody sacrificing several hours to do it, the upgraders can actually go to where there is combat, which for most is preferable to spending money and doing nothing for several hours. WvW is built around time periods where there are substantial amounts of people on each map. Anet did state that one of their future goals is to make the maps work better in low population time slots.

I would have to disagree a bit with you Yuffi (fellow guildie). Defenders need to be much more active now since an attacking army can cut off supply and drain keep supply by attacking and weakening walls and gates.

Defenders can’t just hold out for the timer to fix a wall any more; they must venture out to retake camps and protect dolyaks, and they must protect and fix walls at the same time. These are leading to more fights IMHO, and I like the “Art of War” feel that it is bringing back to the game.

Without auto upgrade, taking a reinforced or fortified objective is a HUGE deal now that roamers can work to keep them paper by flipping camps and killing yaks as often as possible.

I have been there upgrading towers and keeps in the small hours of the day. I know the old costs, and the time it took. I also know that most players prefer to be attackers – and have no issue with this. I like a mix of both.

I have never had a commander complain about me spending time staying in the Alpine BL keeping an eye on and upgrading our stuff. I’ve only ever done this because I wanted to, and I know a number of players who actively preferred to do the job of caretaker in the old BL maps. We were often instrumental in spotting enemy attack and rallying players for a fight. Now there is no reason for us to stay.

Isn’t the attackers aim to cap stuff or kill players (or both). The only time attackers really want to see defenders is when they’re looking for the fun of a fight. How many times have you been in a group that tapped a keep, found no defenders and so waited for defenders to turn up? Didn’t you just go ahead and cap it anyway? This is what I tend to see when I’m on Cecilia: cap and move on rather than looking to cause defenders to sacrifice their time, or are you referring to capping stuff in an opposing BL to draw opponents out of yours/EB? That’s a valid strategy but again it relies on someone being home to notice and put out a call…

If defenders are away attacking another BL then they’re not defenders by definition; and there are few if any defenders on the BL maps these days. If you own all the objectives already why stand around doing nothing? No defenders means no opposition and no opposition means no fights… and that was my point: it’s not good for WvW.

The ideal system would be a fixed upgrade path as now (no trolling), with zero cost to the player as now, with X number of dolyaks required but triggered by player interaction at each location.
Currently the upgrades have remained passive and don’t encourage active participation in defence and that gives players less reason to stay on the map.

Yuffi.2430:

The ideal system would be a fixed upgrade path as now (no trolling), with zero cost to the player as now, with X number of dolyaks required but triggered by player interaction at each location.

Agreed. When a keep reaches 20/20 dollys for T1 the counter stops and no dollys count (but they still add supply). A player would go to the lord as say “Yes, upgrade to T1 now please!”. Then its T1 and the next counter to T2 start.

Dawdler.8521:

Yuffi.2430:

The ideal system would be a fixed upgrade path as now (no trolling), with zero cost to the player as now, with X number of dolyaks required but triggered by player interaction at each location.

Agreed. When a keep reaches 20/20 dollys for T1 the counter stops and no dollys count (but they still add supply). A player would go to the lord as say “Yes, upgrade to T1 now please!”. Then its T1 and the next counter to T2 start.

+1

I concur! This would be sweet what you two guys have said above. It would create opportunity for the defender(s) to scout and report the enemy if spotted, and/or get into a confrontations on the way to the tower/keep and call in for back up, which means more fights! And all of this creates an atmosphere where if you put in the time to watch over an asset and see it thru to fortified, you’ll be more apt to keep an eye on said asset. And it’s another reason for the enemy to want to take if from you! And… having a “set path” for upgrades makes trolling a non-issue and promotes more people willingly kick-starting the upgrades because it’s free and they’ll have no fear of screwing it up.

Anet, you’ve taken some good steps in the right direction, please consider what the community has said above for implementation. Thank you!

I would be happy to press a button to upgrade a keep, if i could have the wp in fire and air back. I would even be happy if those upgrades didnt happen to t3. Its really feels like you dont have a home bl anymore when you start with one keep and the other servers can start so far north. Make all wp apear at the t3 upgrades and give it to any server that can do it.

I just find it funny some ppl here consider the need for there to be a person to press a button to start an upgrade as an “active play”.

The current system is pretty great. Servers that lack nighttime coverage have better chance to prevent the stronger server from upgrading the whole maps into t3. Scouts and yakslappers are relevant again. Towers and camps now become an asset rather than a target for k-train. So yea, it’s a wonderful change overall

BlueBoy.1236:

I just find it funny some ppl here consider the need for there to be a person to press a button to start an upgrade as an “active play”.

The current system is pretty great. Servers that lack nighttime coverage have better chance to prevent the stronger server from upgrading the whole maps into t3. Scouts and yakslappers are relevant again. Towers and camps now become an asset rather than a target for k-train. So yea, it’s a wonderful change overall

Except no one is playing WvW….

Other than that, it’s fine!

I’ve been a home border defender, scout, and roamer for about 3 years. In my opinion, the current upgrade system is fine. It is an improvement over the old in the sense that dolyaks are once again needed, but no one can blow 800 sups on a useless upgrade just as the enemy horde is advancing.

On the other hand, the upgrade system is rendered meaningless due to the fact that home defenders cannot use the keep waypoints and the travel time by foot through the hamster maze is far too long.

I’ve timed this. It takes a zerg less than 6 minutes from touching the outer gate of a fortified keep to lord down and ring up. If a tower is contested in the south when I am in the rampart, I know it’ll be lost by the time I reach it, so why bother upgrading it unless I am going to sit in it.

It is difficult to get zergs from EB to respond to calls for help without a waypoint, because, well, once again, the hamster maze. Add to this the constant threat of fall damage death, I’ve had to many times start over from spawn because I never made it to the contested keep at all due to some paw slip. The map is just one platform jumper game.

Traditionally, there have been just a small handful of roaming scouts responding to contested keeps and towers. With the old map, this was not much of an issue, because in any tower you could immediately see all the walls and gates, and it didn’t take a whole lot of walking to see which wall was damaged in Bay or Hills either. On the new map, especially Fire has way too many walls to check and long distances to travel between them. Start from spawn, walk to the keep, check all the walls and gates – all within the six minutes it takes for a zerg to cap a T3 keep. Go.

Yuffi.2430:

The ideal system would be a fixed upgrade path as now (no trolling), with zero cost to the player as now, with X number of dolyaks required but triggered by player interaction at each location.
Currently the upgrades have remained passive and don’t encourage active participation in defence and that gives players less reason to stay on the map.

+1
But some kind of ‘upgrade points’ instead of ‘dolyaks count’, or buildings will have upgrade time based on range from camp.

This was someone else’s idea but make all structures T3 from jump and nothing auto-repairs even between flips. Could solve all these woes… basically fix it or lose it.

Straegen.2938:

This was someone else’s idea but make all structures T3 from jump and nothing auto-repairs even between flips. Could solve all these woes… basically fix it or lose it.

while the idea might shake things up a little, once again, I’d rather not be the few people repairing something while everyone else runs around on the tag.

plus this is wvw where we are suppose to be fighting over objectives.. not bob the builder where the few dedicated repairers will stick around and repair something.

:D