Guild Wars 2

Defending an objective still worthless and fruitless. All the advantages are to the attacker no matter how many times the solution is given to Anet. The fact that the answer to any defense of an objective is for the defenders to leave the objective and engage their aggressors shows Anet still doesn’t get it.

Why does anet keep the Karma Train so strong?

I’m not sure what your talking about. I just spent over an hour attacking NSPs ebg keep and they defended it pretty well. I don’t know, maybe your doing it wrong.

Bearded.6485:

I’m not sure what your talking about. I just spent over an hour attacking NSPs ebg keep and they defended it pretty well. I don’t know, maybe your doing it wrong.

Did they defend it with Siege, or did they organize a team, run out, and destroy you?

Yeah, I’d like to know too. I’m in that matchup this week. Doesn’t really matter, though, because as soon as the 3 headed Dragonbrand SEA map que logs on, everything will flip.

If they come with rams you can place 2 superior trebs and deny everything at the gate. Oils and canons are worthless against zergs

If they come with proxy catapults no matter how many carts you put on the walls they can have carts too and destroy you.

We are matched against vizuna quite often now and no matter how good I siege up a place I always know that if they destroy my puny cart on the wall and place 4 superior catas I’m done for.

Easy solution to this: make walls wide enough so carts placed at the end of wall don’t get sniped by other carts or meteor shower. Done.

This will make it that proxy catas and rams are both vulnerable and should only be tried if there’s no one defending or no good siege placed. This forces the enemy into building catapults in spot where mortar/trebs can’t reach or trebs further away. This makes capping with zergs much slower and will make players blob less cause they have to wait.

Siege.

But you can’t ,and shouldn’t be able to, defend anything with one arrow cart. It takes cannons, mortars, trebs, cats, carts, and people. If you only got 3or 4 guys show up to defend your keep, you should lose it.

I disagree. I’m not saying that any random pugs that don’t what supply is should successfully defend an objective, but if there’s one active scout that eats WvW as his breakfast playing 11 hours a day and knows all the good spots for siege, he should be able to defend against the infamous proxy catapults with successful arrow carts. It’s the same way as he can defend from rams with trebuchet at the gate.

This doesn’t mean a zerg can’t do anything against it, but it forces zergs to not be lazy and go for more time consuming attacks like catapults further aways or trebuchets. This gives more time for the defenders to call for reinforcements.

It’s a very powerful feeling when you know that one person can repel 100 enemies. It’s one of those 300 movie moments and will make more people scout/defend objectives. Like I said, enemies can still capture stuff with catas/trebs, but punish them if they go for quick dirty means like rams and proxy catas.

This is mostly why I stopped defending/scouting. I prefer to capture stuff since I know all the good spots. It’s much more rewarding.

Walls need to be made higher, so that people can’t AoE up onto them. That would also make cannons and oil useful, instead of the death traps they’ve always been. Then the only way to attack someone that’s on a wall is to set up siege, and to put it far enough back to have an angle to reach the top of the wall. Then counter siege can be built by the defenders, to take out that siege. Then counter siege can be set up by attackers to take out that siege. It’s all about counter play.

For a typical scenario, the attackers set up catas against the wall. The defenders set up a cart on the top of the wall, to attack the catas. The attackers set up carts (or even balistas) back from the wall to attack the carts on top of it. The defenders set up a treb to hit those carts. The attackers set up a couple trebs in different spots to attack those defensive trebs from different angles. Unless the defenders have trebs/mortars already facing those spots, the defensive treb will go down, then the cart on top of the wall will go down, then the wall can be dealt with. A smart group would just start with taking out the trebs/mortars first, and narrow in from there. A bad group would just drop 3 rams, and then come to the various WvW forums to demonize siege and try to shame anyone that uses it properly, because they didn’t understand anything beyond simple facemashing. Or they’ll blame PUGs for their bad choices. Sometimes even both.

Unfortunately, that process has already been going on for a very long time, because there’s a lot of people that think that all it takes to be good at WvW is to just watch some old youtube videos of RG, and scream into their microphone. Failing to realize that they’re not par, and that while RG was fantastic at GvG, they weren’t really famous for focusing on the objectives.

And then the game gets dumbed down to the point where bad tactics and strategy not only is ok but actively encouraged by the way things are set up. And good strategy gets tossed completely out the window and ends up as some bizarre foreign concept. Though ironically, when taking an objective, actual good strategy will always hold the advantage, simply because it’s good strategy. But everything else gets nerfed to the point where bad strategy is almost on par, and the maps end up being changed to where a karma train is pretty much all that’s left. Because it’s easy, and not much thinking involved. Just like the champ trains in PvE. Then Anet can look at the silent blobs, and call it a “social experience”.

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

Phantom.8130:

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

+1

The blobmentality is what broke WvW.

Masori.3528:

Phantom.8130:

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

+1

The blobmentality is what broke WvW.

Well…. yes and no. The maps are a major part of the problem. They need completely redesigned. The layout of where the areas are needs fixed. The design of each of those areas needs fixed. The overall structure of the system needs fixed. That’s all on Anet.

However, I think back to previous MMO’s I’ve played, and look at how the PvP went with that. There was always a small portion of players who played for the objectives and wanted to focus on them, and learn the best way to capture/defend them. But there was always a larger portion of players who just….. facemashed against each other in every match, and were entirely irrelevant to the outcome of the matches. They just wanted to fight each other and didn’t care about anything else. Or anyone else. Many of those players would be the ones who ignored everything and just focused on grinding so they could get top PvP gear and have easier wins in their useless fights. Look at TOR as the perfect example of that playing out. How many Huttball matches had a tank and a healer just….. standing in the acid pit the whole time to get their medals for healing and soaking, while ignoring the entire match and just being a burden on the rest of their team? It was commonplace by the time I quit that game.

There’s players who want to focus on strategy, there’s players that just want to focus on the fighting mechanics themselves, and then there’s a LOT more players that just want easy wins for selfish reasons. And the kicker is, I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of PvP guilds across all of the MMOs, that start off with one or two big names that excelled at either the strategy/objectives or the mechanical fighting, and then the guild was filled in with some people that legtimately wanted to improve in either aspect, but also a LOT of people that just wanted that tag recognition so they could try to lord it over people. “I’m in (insert guild name here), so you HAVE to do what I say!” yet…. when it came down to it, those people were completely useless buffoons.

So it’s the combination of several factors. Bad design being a major portion of it. But some lazy, selfish, narcissistic players, who pretty much suck the life out everything they touch, because that’s all they’re good for. And then the odd dynamic of the good players who actually know what they’re talking about, but end up being drowned out by a combination of ignorance, psychotic politics, and sometimes even outright harassment.

However, Anet can’t fix the problems with the playerbase. Those are problems that exists in every MMO, and furthermore every online game. Good parenting is the only solution for that. But Anet can fix the problems with the game itself, but…. they have to actually know what they’re doing in order to be able to do that. All signs point towards them not only not knowing what they’re doing, but being able to admit that they don’t know. An error doesn’t become a mistake until it’s refused to be corrected, and by that standard, Anet’s made a LOT of mistakes concerning WvW. The sad part is, they can’t even really trust the playerbase to teach them. There’s so many conflicting answers, from people who actually know what they’re talking about and people that just think they do, that the whole thing is a wash. They need to do some legitimate studying of the subject matter. Research maps of battlefields from real historical wars, read The Art of War by Sun Tzu, and similar literature. Learn what actual militaries learned over centuries of trial and error, and apply that knowledge. Look back to the Renaissance era, to see how battles were fought then, how battlefields were selected and prepared, and apply that knowledge. But…. they’re not going to. The do PvE, they make PvE, they know PvE. That’s their wheelhouse. They’re not going to broaden their horizons. They’ll just keep quiet until people are sick of complaining, take whoever’s still left, and spin a new narrative. That’s much easier than actually cracking open a book and learning.

A big part of the problem is Anet does not seem to have anyone who lives and breathes WvW, someone who spends the majority of their game time playing, who can see and understand the problem areas. The out-of-control AoE, the broken LoS issues that have plagued WvW since launch.

I’m sure the Anet devs are trying their best but they are, in the main PvE orientated and until such times as they spend TIME in WvW rather than simply throw limited resources at it they will never understand the true nature of the beast.

I think if anyone wants to still play the wvw game mode , should stay positive and focus on the current state of it and not dwell on the shoulds and coulds.

The easiest way to fix blobs is by making wvw completely separate like spvp is. No farming, no blobs, no more complaining about rewards.

Anyone of SFR that plays wvw for siege warfare and not just fights? Maybe we can band together to do stuff together.

tichai.4351:

A big part of the problem is Anet does not seem to have anyone who lives and breathes WvW, someone who spends the majority of their game time playing, who can see and understand the problem areas. The out-of-control AoE, the broken LoS issues that have plagued WvW since launch.

I’m sure the Anet devs are trying their best but they are, in the main PvE orientated and until such times as they spend TIME in WvW rather than simply throw limited resources at it they will never understand the true nature of the beast.

^touché!
They might have devs that breath wvw but their “defenition” of WvW sometimes is a bit weird and based on broken mechanics wich ends to be anoying to some players but we also have the peeps that like what dev do when they just need the press of 2 or 3 buttons to win.

Phantom.8130:

But there was always a larger portion of players who just….. facemashed against each other in every match, and were entirely irrelevant to the outcome of the matches. They just wanted to fight each other and didn’t care about anything else.

If people are having fun and enjoying the game, why not?

Just as I thought! Your doing it wrong. Operator error cannot be accounted for. I have fat fingers, but that’s not my keyboards fault.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Bearded.6485:

I’m not sure what your talking about. I just spent over an hour attacking NSPs ebg keep and they defended it pretty well. I don’t know, maybe your doing it wrong.

Did they defend it with Siege, or did they organize a team, run out, and destroy you?

Is it reverent becuse its the same thing. If you run out and destroy them you less def and more actively attked them all though it is a type of defing. If you use siege or ranged from the walls that more of a passive def.

You def points to deployment points mostly by wp but also by safe points to presser the other teams objectives or groups.

Masori.3528:

Phantom.8130:

There’s problems on so many levels, that even fixing one level completely won’t have much impact. Everything from the very foundation all the way up needs redesigned and completely reset. And that even includes the mindsets of a loooooot of players. Unfortunately, that’s just plain not possible. Anet isn’t going to fix the foundation as well as all of the details built on top of said foundation, and the playerbase isn’t going to go do some studying of actual strategy. So….. we end up with the constant karma train. Because that’s what it’s set up for, and that’s all a lot of people know.

+1

The blobmentality is what broke WvW.

What broke WvWvW is WvWvW, it simply is not sustainable when it needs large scale participation but is so incredibly prone to imbalance and thus cannot even be rewarded so players will evaporate rapidly. People blob because “safety in numbers” and “taking the easy road”, that’s just human nature. If someone is making games and isn’t taking this into account then they should probably consider a career switch.

Like it or not, GW2’s combat is made with small teams in mind not massive battles, in PvE blob fights like temples and bosses, its not so apparent because the encounters are simplistic and NPCs don’t get annoyed at being on the wrong end of game mechanics and log off. AoE caps and rally system issues aside, actual large fights lag the ever living kitten out of the servers, which is hilarious considering the mode. WvWvW doesn’t have another three years of “soon” left in it and its not because of blobbers.

Bearded.6485:

I’m not sure what your talking about. I just spent over an hour attacking NSPs ebg keep and they defended it pretty well. I don’t know, maybe your doing it wrong.

Or maybe you are attacking wrong…
One or the other really. Plenty of bad defenders and bad attackers currently, specially generals.

Currently all the advantages fall to the attacker though, ‘if’ you take advantage of all the exploits. Make a list of each position’s pro’s and con’s, check it twice, and you will discover for yourself.

The fact is that you need siege to defend, but the attacker needs nothing to clear your siege.

Siege disablers hitting mortars on walls from below lol. Meanwhile you have to tip toe on the lip of the wall with a giant bulls-eye on your kitten just to toss one down. Having waypoints make roaming easier, but it’s hardly worth this mess.

I can’t believe they haven’t introduced a wall buff or defender buff yet.

I can’t believe they haven’t introduced a wall buff or defender buff yet.

There are some tactics that make walls/gates invulnerable for a set duration, but no one has grinded enough to achieve guild level 999