Guild Wars 2

The 2,1,1 system atm is terrible it makes no sense what so ever . atleast the 3,2,1 way aloud the 2nd and 3rd place servers to compete. Now it is just pointless.

It’s a push to get second and third place servers to gang up on the first place server. Nothing to gain by hitting the weaker server, might as well team up and hit the stronger one.

Eventually people will clue in.

3-2-1 is better if you wanna focus the top server though.

Right now across 2 skirmish with 2-1-1 if you focus top and trade the win both of you get 3, the ‘first’ gets last place for both = 2.

In a 3-2-1 you can both trade win and end up with 5 while forcing the ‘first’ to get last for both = 2.

You can see that 3-2-1 actually incentivizes 2v1 harder and lets you trade wins with the 2nd/3rd server to gang up on the first better since you can achieve 2.5 the points in a 3-2-1 rather than a 1.5 in 2-1-1 across 2 skirmishes.

fishball.7204:

3-2-1 is better if you wanna focus the top server though.

Right now across 2 skirmish with 2-1-1 if you focus top and trade the win both of you get 3, the ‘first’ gets last place for both = 2.

In a 3-2-1 you can both trade win and end up with 5 while forcing the ‘first’ to get last for both = 2.

You can see that 3-2-1 actually incentivizes 2v1 harder and lets you trade wins with the 2nd/3rd server to gang up on the first better since you can achieve 2.5 the points in a 3-2-1 rather than a 1.5 in 2-1-1 across 2 skirmishes.

This is well said. You can push the first server into last for the skirmish and gain more ground. People argue scores are closer with 211, but really that’s because there are less points to go around. A sort of placebo illusion.

Am I the only one who likes the new system? It actively helps your server if you have a weak timezone and don’t have 24/7 coverage, and takes the stress off having to PPT 24/7 or risk falling out of your tier.

Digikid.7230:

Am I the only one who likes the new system? It actively helps your server if you have a weak timezone and don’t have 24/7 coverage, and takes the stress off having to PPT 24/7 or risk falling out of your tier.

You’re on Maguuma with 22/24 skirmishes won so any system would be ‘good’ to someone on Maguuma tbh.

Right now you guys are at 1.84 ratio compared to TC/BG – 46 skirmish points to 25 (BG/TC).

If we used the old ‘warscore’, Mag has 160k and BG/TC have around 125k which is a ratio of 1.28.

If we look at the ratios, the blowout is far higher under this new system than the old warscore so I’m not really sure you can say this system helps someone without 24/7 coverage more since the blowouts are far higher.

211 is fine. scoring shouldn’t even matter. game mode has more problems. capping keeps and towers is boring as is.

all this 2v1 stuff should be a thing in the first place, tell me how the following makes sense, how can a server that has come 2nd twice and third 19 times be winning over a server that has come 2nd 18 times and last 4 times. this is basically making 2nd and 3rd place redundant .

What I meant by what I said is imagine a typical server that is strong in a few timezones and weak in others, under the new system you can tryhard to get 1st place in your skirmish, without having to worry about 2 servers getting massively ahead in your weak timezone which happens in 3-2-1 scoring, overall I feel that 2-1-1 is just better system for scoring. (Ignoring the issues of PPT itself)

Tails.5491:

all this 2v1 stuff should be a thing in the first place, tell me how the following makes sense, how can a server that has come 2nd twice and third 19 times be winning over a server that has come 2nd 18 times and last 4 times. this is basically making 2nd and 3rd place redundant .

Stop going for second and go for first. i’m sure YB knows what’s up. They don’t wanna go T1 again so they don’t really care about the score.

jamesdolla.3954:

Tails.5491:

all this 2v1 stuff should be a thing in the first place, tell me how the following makes sense, how can a server that has come 2nd twice and third 19 times be winning over a server that has come 2nd 18 times and last 4 times. this is basically making 2nd and 3rd place redundant .

Stop going for second and go for first. i’m sure YB knows what’s up. They don’t wanna go T1 again so they don’t really care about the score.

Of cause we don’t want to go to tier 1 , tier 1 is just bg map blobs and mag 15 omega rushes and flying mesmers , but when JQ has a map blog 24/7 it is hard to anything about that and dropping down to t3/4 just means another week of farming db or hod again, no one wants that, but with the system how it is atm there is not much choice.

The number “2” is the point of having the most online players at that time.

I think scoring in WvW is mostly pointless but 2-1-1 is just dumb. The dominant coverage ends up winning the round and the two less populated servers go into a why bother mode since 2nd is as good as 3rd.

If they want more score competition make the 1st place server objectives worth more loot.

The idea that 2:1:1 promotes 2v1 is fine in theory but is it actually happening in any tier in practice? For all the endless, tedious complaining about “double teaming” it’s always been very hard to maintain any determined 2v1 for more than a few sessions. Mostly what you see is a couple of large guilds co-operating for the duration of their raids. Once they log off it all reverts to a free for all.

The current system makes an organized 2v1 even harder to maintain because, if it were to be successful and the leading server were to be pushed out of first place in successive skirmishes, there would then be an issue over which of the other two servers was benefiting most. The idea of both maintaining a 2v1 and also trading wins so that both those servers gain equal points is laughable. Not going to happen.

In my experience it’s relatively easy to get a lot of people on both servers to co-operate in a loose 2v1 when both servers really hate a third server (being on YB that’s been very common to see, unsurprisingly) but as time goes on, as the scores flatten out and old grudges get forgotten it gets harder to fan the flames of those rivalries. What I see under the current scoring system isn’t a move to rational 2v1 play but a much more ad hoc approach where everyone pretty much goes where the action is regardless of the strategic value. That allows a dominant server to become even more dominant because neither of the other teams really cares about the overall result, which is a foregone conclusion Also, looking only at the NA league, since the scores are now so flattened that wildcards mean almost anyone could be in any tier from 2 to 4 at any time, playing for places becomes even more meaningless.

What will change this is if ANet attach meaningful rewards to placement. If coming 2nd gets you an Ascended Weapon or Armor chest and coming third doesn’t, then you will see behavior change, just to give one example.

2:1:1 promotes 2 vs 1ing the larger server more then 3:-2:1 promotes 2vs 1ing the larger server though which is kinda the point….. and isn’t promoting action a good thing?

I actually prefer the 2-1-1 system its a lot easier for a server to tank even with the ppt tryhards, also as for a 2v1 and if any tier is doing it, yesterday CD and DB were basically 2v1ing SBI in EBG for hours at end to the point that in about 8hours I think they fought a whole 3 times, not that either servers could do anything when there EB blobs can be held with 10 people, CD at least fought back once VII got on and put a hurting on SBI for a bit.
That be said I don’t think they are “actively” 2v1ing SBI just some major focus on SBI because they wanted to prevent SM from T3ing which is impossible cause both server were one pushing once SBI active zerg came

2-1-1 is fine, reduce passive ppt or make the scoring every 10mins or back to 15. making it harder to PPK scrims. so kitten hard to get into t3 structures to start a bag farm as is.

Straegen.2938:

I think scoring in WvW is mostly pointless but 2-1-1 is just dumb. The dominant coverage ends up winning the round and the two less populated servers go into a why bother mode since 2nd is as good as 3rd.

If they want more score competition make the 1st place server objectives worth more loot.

I think skirmishes are a great idea. It gives you a short term goal to work for even if you are losing the match. It does keep matches closer that the old way of just adding up warscore because it it doesn’t result in a big warscore point deficit accumulating overnight when you have no coverage and lose everything. You just lose the 1 point, same as if you lose the warscore by a small margin.

Even better would be some sort of reward tied to the skirmish win. Extra tokens or some such.

I don’t think we’ve found the best scoring method for it though. 2-1-1 is too all or nothing. Really 2-1-1 is the same thing is giving everyone a participation point and then just one additional point for a victory. You would get exactly the same result with 1-0-0.

It does push people harder to go for first. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they will attack the first place holder harder. It may mean they will farm the 2nd or 3rd place team harder.

In order to REALLY encourage people to attack the first place team you have to make more rewarding – which is why I think the idea of increasing the ppk or point reward for hitting the first place team could be a really good way of doing it.

Yeah, I’m sorry but, the image that Tails linked says it all. 2nd and 3rd place are now irrelevant. That is ridiculous… I really hope this addressed. I haven’t posted in the WvW forums in well over a year but this new scoring system is outrageous, so here I am.
The new 2 hour skirmish periods are nice though, IMO, but only as 3-2-1 scoring system.

shiri.4257:

2-1-1 is fine, reduce passive ppt or make the scoring every 10mins or back to 15. making it harder to PPK scrims. so kitten hard to get into t3 structures to start a bag farm as is.

You are confusing scrims with the tick. Scrims last for 2 hours. And it’s dirt easy to get into a t3 structure. 2 shield generators + rams/catas and you’re in. The only way you could fail that is if the opponent has more numbers and/or you suck.

211 could be ok, but dominant_servers are too strong.

For example, it’s very easy to move that giant zerg around and obliterate all invading groups, especially when dominant_server’s stuff is Tier 3.

I feel stupid for repeating the same thing for four years and expecting different results.

Tails.5491:

jamesdolla.3954:

Tails.5491:

all this 2v1 stuff should be a thing in the first place, tell me how the following makes sense, how can a server that has come 2nd twice and third 19 times be winning over a server that has come 2nd 18 times and last 4 times. this is basically making 2nd and 3rd place redundant .

Stop going for second and go for first. i’m sure YB knows what’s up. They don’t wanna go T1 again so they don’t really care about the score.

Of cause we don’t want to go to tier 1 , tier 1 is just bg map blobs and mag 15 omega rushes and flying mesmers , but when JQ has a map blog 24/7 it is hard to anything about that and dropping down to t3/4 just means another week of farming db or hod again, no one wants that, but with the system how it is atm there is not much choice.

Thing is, we don’t want you in the tiers below that either. Many of us don’t wanna fight with you, or against you due to your servers playstyle and think T1 is exactly and precisely what you deserve.

As far as the original topic and scoring goes, I like 2-1-1. While in the previous scoring scheme servers would fight for 2nd much more, it also made it logical and most efficient for the 2 stronger servers to fight and decimate the weakest one.

So in practice what too often ended up happening is the weakest server got almost non-stop farmed and its players demoralized and logging out of the game mode. There was no incentive to go after the strongest server. Now there is.

The weakest servers still get ganged up on and farmed but far less then they did before this change because farming them has been made somewhat irrelevant with this change.

Gwaihir.1745:

fishball.7204:

3-2-1 is better if you wanna focus the top server though.

Right now across 2 skirmish with 2-1-1 if you focus top and trade the win both of you get 3, the ‘first’ gets last place for both = 2.

In a 3-2-1 you can both trade win and end up with 5 while forcing the ‘first’ to get last for both = 2.

You can see that 3-2-1 actually incentivizes 2v1 harder and lets you trade wins with the 2nd/3rd server to gang up on the first better since you can achieve 2.5 the points in a 3-2-1 rather than a 1.5 in 2-1-1 across 2 skirmishes.

This is well said. You can push the first server into last for the skirmish and gain more ground. People argue scores are closer with 211, but really that’s because there are less points to go around. A sort of placebo illusion.

The 211 doesn’t appear to be benefiting wvw and there appears to be a deadlock with the 2nd and 3rd place servers in my tier even though we own more than the other.

Not a very good scoring system at all, we should be pulling away not neck and neck. It rewards servers for slacking off thus making the matchup even more stale.

Deli.1302:

shiri.4257:

2-1-1 is fine, reduce passive ppt or make the scoring every 10mins or back to 15. making it harder to PPK scrims. so kitten hard to get into t3 structures to start a bag farm as is.

You are confusing scrims with the tick. Scrims last for 2 hours. And it’s dirt easy to get into a t3 structure. 2 shield generators + rams/catas and you’re in. The only way you could fail that is if the opponent has more numbers and/or you suck.

You get passive PPT for T3 structures and various caps, which was fine til they increased the amount. But the increase in passive PPT every 5 mins made it more difficult to farm the turtling ninja ppt heroes. Taking a t3 keep/smc during anything outside of EU/early NA and Sea is difficult unless you have that overwhelming advantage in that time zone. When it’s map queue vs map queue, defense has advantage.

The overall scores don’t quite matter as much if your guilds want to fight more than ninja empty bls. just keep it fresh so we can farm scrubscakes like you. hope to see you in t4 purgatory soon baby cakes. Or t1 with Magswag farming you.

Used to be able to make up 2k points on PPK in 30mins sitting inside smc lords/keep lords. not so much anymore.

I prefer 3-2-1 over 2-1-1 (though I’m not sure I’m really fond of the skirmish system at all, besides saying “our guild won that match”). In tier 4, 2v1 just doesn’t happen. There’s no collaboration or even implicit collaboration between 2nd and 3rd place. Instead, 1st and 2nd place just goes after 3rd place. This allows 2nd place to gain easy PPT and easier PPK without losing anything to 1st place, potentially allowing them to win the skirmish. And of course, 1st place does the same to 3rd place for the same reason.

To provide an example from last night, CD was in SBI’s tier 3 SMC inner last night. We were doing quite well against SBI and simply wanted to cap for the sake of papering SMC — we have zero expectations that we will hold onto SMC for a long period of time due to our overnight coverage. DB decided to enter SMC, and we were hoping they might cap as we were on the 2nd floor fighting. And who comes up the ramp? DB. While we wiped them, it didn’t make sense for DB to come after us, they should have worked on lord and only fought CD if CD came back down to lord. Eventually CD capped SMC. Again, this is the 2nd place server (DB) going after 3rd place (CD) — not the goal of the current 2-1-1 system.

There’s zero incentive for 2nd and 3rd place servers to go after 1st place; the 3rd place server still won’t ‘win’ that skirmish, significant effort for zero gain. 1st place is 1st place for the most likely reasons of coverage and map population.

With 3-2-1, it provides 3rd place an opportunity to elevate to at least 2nd place without having to fight 1st place for the entire skirmish.

I can see 2-1-1 being preferred by Tier 1, where they collaborate (or sometimes ‘server leaders’/commanders beg) to keep all three servers in Tier 1/1.5. But for the lower tiers, I don’t think 2-1-1 provides any benefit.

Jayne.9251:

It’s a push to get second and third place servers to gang up on the first place server. Nothing to gain by hitting the weaker server, might as well team up and hit the stronger one.

Eventually people will clue in.

The problem with this is that it will not incentivize the 2nd and 3rd place server to focus the 1st place server. For one, you’d need both servers focusing the 1st place server during the same scrimmage and how often is that realistically gonna happen? Secondly, whenever that does happen, only one of those two servers will be the beneficiary of it. The other gets nothing unless they are somehow able to keep it up for another 2 hour scrim and trade the win. But you’d need some serious coordination/collusion across both servers and we know most players don’t care enough to go down that road.

Additionally, most players don’t decide which server to attack based on the score. They make their decision based on which server they perceive to be stronger/weaker at the time or which one would provide better fights.

So what we have now is a pretty ridiculous system where it is pointless for the two weaker servers to even play. If you can’t get 1st place during a given scrim, there was at least a reason to still play wvw and get 2nd. Now it doesn’t matter, just log off.

shiri.4257:

Deli.1302:

shiri.4257:

2-1-1 is fine, reduce passive ppt or make the scoring every 10mins or back to 15. making it harder to PPK scrims. so kitten hard to get into t3 structures to start a bag farm as is.

You are confusing scrims with the tick. Scrims last for 2 hours. And it’s dirt easy to get into a t3 structure. 2 shield generators + rams/catas and you’re in. The only way you could fail that is if the opponent has more numbers and/or you suck.

You get passive PPT for T3 structures and various caps, which was fine til they increased the amount. But the increase in passive PPT every 5 mins made it more difficult to farm the turtling ninja ppt heroes.

They never increased passive ppt from the tick. They merely re-balanced it to fit the new 5 minute timer. They reduced it to 5 minutes so that camps mattered, something players wanted. Getting higher points from flipping stuff that is more upgraded is something players also wanted. None of this takes anything away from ppk since ppk has nothing to do with the tick, only the scrim, which lasts 2 hours.

Straegen.2938:

I think scoring in WvW is mostly pointless but 2-1-1 is just dumb. The dominant coverage ends up winning the round and the two less populated servers go into a why bother mode since 2nd is as good as 3rd.

If they want more score competition make the 1st place server objectives worth more loot.

this is what it seems like to me as well. if all 3 servers are in t he same ballpark size wise, maybe it works. if 1 server is so much larger at certain times, 2 v 1 wont matter so why bother?

Deli.1302:

They never increased passive ppt from the tick. They merely re-balanced it to fit the new 5 minute timer. They reduced it to 5 minutes so that camps mattered, something players wanted. Getting higher points from flipping stuff that is more upgraded is something players also wanted. None of this takes anything away from ppk since ppk has nothing to do with the tick, only the scrim, which lasts 2 hours.

Higher PPT ticks from upgraded stuff most definetly diminish the importance of PPK to negligable at best. Problem is that they boosted PPT far too high. This wouldnt have been so much of an issue with an extra 10% for each tier. Instead, we are seeing 50% higher PPT just going T0->kitten->T3 keep is almost 3 times the PPT and the others arent far behind. This is just massive.

This is what wrecked PPK.

Edit: kitten Anet and censoring. T*zero* to T*one* and T*zero* to T*three* kittenmit kittening kittens.

Exactly what Delis wrote is right now happening with Kodasch: we lost 20 people to RS, add the other Guilds and Players which transferd there and you have one massive hyped blobbserver. Ok, that one is on the kill greedy bandwagoners.

The problem right now is: glicko is still to slow, so we have a MU with RS and Vizu.
RS is dominating the whole MU, Vizu and Kodash don’t play that much and many players in our community are like “who gives a f***?”. Our whole nightcrew was trying to secure the 2nd place so that we secure our 2nd place. And now? It’s basiclly dead, why should i waste my time in wvw when 2nd and 3rd gain 1 point? There is no point in staying up late, when you don’t have a chance to get to number 1 and you don’t have any benefit, when you are number 2.

The system is just not working.