Guild Wars 2

Shortly back Thief Infiltrator Strike was changed to teleport back 1200 range. Ok, fine. How is it that Elemental Vapor running into keeps and self reviving being ignored? Honestly I’m seeing double standards with this.

Anyway, Vapor running into keeps after being downed (warrior or elemental) needs to stop. Players should not be able to use these types of abilities past keep/tower doors from a downed state.

With Infiltrator Strike I never got downed and ran into a Keep/Tower and self revived and rinse and repeat.

Or you could gear up with Runes of the Vamp and get it too.

lol no…

@OP: Yes, this is a double standard that needs fixing inmho, although if timed right, you can CC an ele just before he pops into vapor form. At least the ele shouldn’t be able to pass through gates in downed form. The warrior on the other hand can still be killed and easily CCed once he goes into vengance.

lol the fact you even put the warrior vengeance into this is laughable, lets complain about the most useless class in downed state

does anyone even remember when anet SWITCHED vapor form on ele downed from the non insta cast to the insta cast skill? they WANTED it like this. why would they reverse their own decision?

JJBigs.8456:

does anyone even remember when anet SWITCHED vapor form on ele downed from the non insta cast to the insta cast skill? they WANTED it like this. why would they reverse their own decision?

I don’t care if it’s insta or not, it should allow the player to run into keep/tower entrance portals.

Oh hey. This same thread is also in the elementalist forums. I’ll just copy post my response from there.

“We shouldn’t be discouraging the creative use of abilities. It takes away from tactics and strategies that can be used and makes the game less dynamic and interesting.”

Its ok as long as each class has a similar ability.. engineer has abysmal downed state skills compared to the other classes. Skill 3 should be rocket boots that can shoot you towards a keep gate.

Ehecatl.9172:

Oh hey. This same thread is also in the elementalist forums. I’ll just copy post my response from there.

“We shouldn’t be discouraging the creative use of abilities. It takes away from tactics and strategies that can be used and makes the game less dynamic and interesting.”

Of course every Elemental player will say this. Sadly, this ability is abused heavily and out of control. NO player, I repeat, NO player should be able to just get up from downed and run inside a keep then self resurrect themselves. This is not what World vs World is about.

And yes for the Record: Warriors should not be able to do this either — but at least they have a timer.

I don’t see how this is a problem at all. If you are solo/small man then just don’t down ele/war in front of a keep or at least try to lure them away from tower or use pulls to move them further away from a keep. If you are zerging then just wait until you smash in whatever they mist into.

And lets not ignore the fact that any of the people posting in this thread (including myself) would all mist into a keep for self rez….

zerospin.8604:

Its ok as long as each class has a similar ability.. engineer has abysmal downed state skills compared to the other classes. Skill 3 should be rocket boots that can shoot you towards a keep gate.

That would be funny if it could launch you over the walls.

kingcragus.6810:

I don’t see how this is a problem at all. If you are solo/small man then just don’t down ele/war in front of a keep or at least try to lure them away from tower or use pulls to move them further away from a keep. If you are zerging then just wait until you smash in whatever they mist into.

And lets not ignore the fact that any of the people posting in this thread (including myself) would all mist into a keep for self rez….

I get ele’s that purposely stay near the door because of this. Most will refuse to go out of mist form range so they can just run back in.

I agree, you shouldn’t be able to cross any portals while in mist form.

As for vengeance, even if the warrior does make it inside, he dies anyway, so I guess that’s okay.

USUALLY wouldn’t reply to this sort of kitten post, but i guess OP critical success’d on his enrage roll..

OP → I suppose i understand what it is that you’re trying to hint at – that mist / vapor form is overpowered yadda yadda..

But your justification seems a bit..how can i put this? childish? IDK, just the way i read it sounded like this . WAAAAAAAAA THIEVES SKILL GETS NERFED BUT ELES DONT GET NERFEDED TOO?!

If you’re going to try and justify a skill being nerfed or losing it’s current form for another, please don’t whine and kitten about your class’s own nerfs. It really makes you sound petty.

While I agree with what the OP is saying, this is just another case of why the downed state in general should be removed from WvW.

It would solve so many problems over night.

Person A: X class can do something Y class can’t. NERFZITZZZZZ!!!
Person B: But… Y class can do 40 things X class can’t. Should we nerf those too?
Person A: NO! THAT WOULD BE STUPITS!

This is why I just made a post saying #2 and #3 should be removed from downed state, fixes everything.

i can see where OP is coming from. It gets beyond annoying that you can’t spike a guy because of it. I downed a player on the side of a tower next to the siegeable wall and the guy mist formed around the corner of the tower and jumped into the keep. The least they could do is turn the timer down on mist form.

Double standards as in.....

Ele RTL nerfed with a 250% duration increase because "eles were able to escape groups of 5+ people" meanwhile thief.....

Yeah....

I find that it undermines the danger of running out of keep/tower during a siege and gives the Elementalist class a sort of free pass where they don’t really need to worry about being defeated as long as they stay within a set distance of that portal. I’ve witnessed pairs of D/D eles taking turns running out of a keep/tower AoEing rams at a gate safe in the knowledge that they are pretty much exempt from the risks of being defeated. Luckily for me they were on my server, but still, it’s a bit ridiculous to watch. I’m kind of surprised too that it’s been left like this for so long now.

Eles have light armor, low health and do comparably low damage. They’re made of wet paper and attack you with noodles. So they can escape death if they’re close enough to a tower. That’s your beef? Really? How about we strive for class balance instead?

if you do that make it so thief’s are visible the entire time they are downed and guardians cant push people off them..oya necro no life steal while downed…..wait every class can do special things hmmm weird its almost like they can use skills they can while fighting but downed

zerospin.8604:

Skill 3 should be rocket boots that can shoot you towards a keep gate.

I’m OK with this idea as long as the Ranger Skill 3 has my pet dragging me to the keep gate while rezzing me.
Yup – that would work nicely for me!

Mooodster.3470:

wait every class can do special things

Hmm what special engineer can do..

Bubbles.1047:

Eles have light armor, low health and do comparably low damage. They’re made of wet paper and attack you with noodles. So they can escape death if they’re close enough to a tower. That’s your beef? Really? How about we strive for class balance instead?

Your not playing ele right at all maybe you should reroll eles can put out really high damage or be one of the hardest to kill classes in game

I agree that this needs to be looked at, but in no way it should affect how Elementalist downed state works normally.
It should be balanced just like the Thief downed state: you can teleport around but you can not get through a keep door. This way Elementalists get their downed mode untouched and it stops the abuse that certain players do at tower doors ( losing? RTL+Mist Form+Vapor Form and you are safely back inside). Or enable it for thieves and other classes to enter the keep door with their downed teleport and laugh as QQ ensues.

On to the warrior use of this same mechanic, I really have a hard time justifying not allowing warriors from running inside and dying in 10 seconds, breaking their armor, giving you the loot and potentially taking allies time as he gets resurrected (let’s face it, they rarely get a rally from vengeance). The Elementalist will not die and will be back before you know it.

There is an easy way to counter this strategy, all you need to do is have Guardians place Line of Warding and Sanctuary on the tower/keep/castle portal entrance, preventing them to pass even in Vapor Form and Vengeance.

Simonoly.4352:

I find that it undermines the danger of running out of keep/tower during a siege and gives the Elementalist class a sort of free pass where they don’t really need to worry about being defeated as long as they stay within a set distance of that portal. I’ve witnessed pairs of D/D eles taking turns running out of a keep/tower AoEing rams at a gate safe in the knowledge that they are pretty much exempt from the risks of being defeated. Luckily for me they were on my server, but still, it’s a bit ridiculous to watch. I’m kind of surprised too that it’s been left like this for so long now.

Sorry to say but those ele’s were dumb then, they could have always just hit the Ram from the inside of the gate instead.

On the actual skill itself its quite situation, what about the following?
Guardian gets downed near cliff they can push people off kill them and get a revive.
Necros ability to escape when near very high cliffs
Thiefs shortbow 5 skill to ignore some z axis sometimes (more on pvp maps than wvw though)
Rangers ability to self heal only when underwater
Mesmers ability to get people into keeps that they are already in
Warriors ability to imob people whilst on arrow cart (Not sure have they fixed this yet its been a while since i heard a complaint so possibly not anymore)
thief and mesmers ability to pull people off walls

All is OP, plznerf

I understand the frustration.

I have taken weeks, that have turned into months now, off of running with any groups larger than 10 or so for a similar reason.

I got tired of going head on into WvW battles where a large portion of the front line enemies are; clones, pets, minions, and eles that mist back into the zerg after being downed just to get right back up again.

One day I just logged out of the map and decided I needed a break from it because the fun was lost somewhere along the line.

I don’t blame the players for using the skills or for adopting the play style. Everyone has to find a way to enjoy themselves. I just can’t find mine in a zerg on zerg format that favors gimics, tricks, and pets over full on battle.

I now prefer to take part in smaller scale assaults where it is much more difficult for the enemy to hide from the combat. If an Ele wants to hind behind a tower or keep, then bash down the door.

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

nirvana.8245:

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

Could an Ele getting mist form for 8+ seconds to get somewhere without notice?
(like thiefs have +8s stealth)

Terrorsquad.2349:

nirvana.8245:

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

Could an Ele getting mist form for 8+ seconds to get somewhere without notice?
(like thiefs have +8s stealth)

This is a discussion about the downed state of Elementalists in WvW. Even if a downed Thief had 8s+ of stealth, he still would not be able to get inside.

Mist form is the devil! I for one will not stand for elementalists finding intelligent ways to use their downed skills! How dare they not stay in one place for me to murder! And thieves they take things and stealth it’s madness! I once saw a thief stealth only to pass my entire zerg and reappear on the walls of the tower we were mindlessly headbutting! It’s all too much! I demand change!

When elementalists enter mist form they should die instantly because of the wind! Thieves should be visible all the time and unable to teleport all over like nutcases!

VOTE FOR ZUER!

Seth.4927:

Terrorsquad.2349:

nirvana.8245:

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

Could an Ele getting mist form for 8+ seconds to get somewhere without notice?
(like thiefs have +8s stealth)

This is a discussion about the downed state of Elementalists in WvW. Even if a downed Thief had 8s+ of stealth, he still would not be able to get inside.

I’ll repeat what i said in the other topic. Class balance currently exists of armor/hp, traits, skills, weapon damage modifiers, and downed state. It’s the complete picture that makes the profession. Not one or the other apsects. Some have better downed state, but have worse time surviving burst attacks (ele’s, low armor/hp). If you nerf ele’s downed state escapism, i want Stealth stomping also nerfed. (requires no skill, it should make you visible since it’s an attack, but it doesnt, and only thiefs can do it so by op logic it’s op). And while we are at it, Shadow refuge basically grants free access to portals. Thiefs have an ‘alive’ way to get in tower, Ele’s a downed state one. If you nerf ele ones, i want Shadow refuge nerfed as well. As long as you are cloacked, you cannot access portal. Deal? Nope, thought so…

Immobilize the ele as soon as he goes down?

Kill him before he gets within range?

Maybe stop tunnel visioning the door?

I’d say it’s perferfectly fine; the repetitive use of the mechanic is the annoying part. I suggest improving downed penalty.
Maybe by having it affect downed skill cooldowns? Or longer duration?

Terrorsquad.2349:

nirvana.8245:

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

Could an Ele getting mist form for 8+ seconds to get somewhere without notice?
(like thiefs have +8s stealth)

See a Thief use Shadow Refuge + AoE knock-backs on the ground where you saw them use Shadow Refuge. DUH, big red truck!

Terrorsquad.2349:

glaphen.5230:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Crawford,

Please make use of the (forum)signature you’re using now.. Before calling something OP, look for counters..

Every class in this game has the counters for this, I’m talking about immo-skills.. Every class has immo-skills.. If you don’t use immo-skills in your current build, so be it but bear with the consequences and don’t ask for changes which u can change yourself..

Cheers

You realize that you have around 2 seconds of invulnerability when downed with a 0 cooldown instant cast on mist form. Immobilize would only work if the elementalist decides to sit there till the invulnerability ends and then gets hit by a 2+ second immobilize.

You realize u can immo your target before it goes to downstate right?

Zenjii.6819:

Immobilize the ele as soon as he goes down?

Kill him before he gets within range?

Maybe stop tunnel visioning the door?

Alright since apparently neither of you know the basics, when you are downed all conditions are instantly wiped and you receive the invulnerability buff for about 1-1.5 seconds. An elementalist can also chain RtL and Lightning Flash to go 2100 range nearly instantly while also having Mist Form utility. If that still isn’t enough you have 5 seconds of moving invulnerability on the focus off hand through Obsidian Flesh or Armor of Earth for 6 seconds of protection and stability. The build doesn’t even matter since all these are weapon and utility skills that can be changed at will before entering. There is literally 0 ways to kill an elementalist that wants to get into a tower.

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

Seth.4927:

Terrorsquad.2349:

nirvana.8245:

Faeryll.1673:

A thief can stealth in combat and walk through the gate without notice. This is overpowered and should be removed from the game. Same logic OP is using, or lack of.

Can he do it whilst in downed state?

Could an Ele getting mist form for 8+ seconds to get somewhere without notice?
(like thiefs have +8s stealth)

This is a discussion about the downed state of Elementalists in WvW. Even if a downed Thief had 8s+ of stealth, he still would not be able to get inside.

I’ll repeat what i said in the other topic. Class balance currently exists of armor/hp, traits, skills, weapon damage modifiers, and downed state. It’s the complete picture that makes the profession. Not one or the other apsects. Some have better downed state, but have worse time surviving burst attacks (ele’s, low armor/hp). If you nerf ele’s downed state escapism, i want Stealth stomping also nerfed. (requires no skill, it should make you visible since it’s an attack, but it doesnt, and only thiefs can do it so by op logic it’s op). And while we are at it, Shadow refuge basically grants free access to portals. Thiefs have an ‘alive’ way to get in tower, Ele’s a downed state one. If you nerf ele ones, i want Shadow refuge nerfed as well. As long as you are cloacked, you cannot access portal. Deal? Nope, thought so…

I wasn’t aware shadow refuge was broken…

Just because one of the ele’s broken skills needs to be fixed, does not mean to also nerf an unbroken thief skill. ALL classes can stomp while in stealth (Via thief or Mesmer) and ONLY eles can use downed #2 to escape into a tower.

And stealth stomping takes far more skill than pressing 2 and walking into a tower. You can be downed, interrupted, and otherwise CC’d while finishing even while in stealth. You cannot be killed, interrupted, or otherwise CC’d while in vapor form.

You do know immobilize works right? Whenever I down an ele with my guardian I Immediately hit Chains of Light before they get the chance to do anything. Line of Warding also works but not every class can block off an area like that, but every class does have atleast 1 immobilize skill. They try to mist form, float in place for a few seconds, drop, then get stomped. If you can’t immobilize them and secure the kill before they escape, that’s a L2P issue on your part. The same way immobilize also worked on RTL pretty much making ele a free kill if you did it just as they activated the skill since they would be locked out of all of their skills for the duration of the spell. But no, heaven forbid anyone actually use their brain and the skills their class has at their disposal. lets all cry on the forums till it’s nerfed into oblivion instead. The only thing that does need to be nerfed in this game is a thief’s stealth as unlike the skill you’re kitten ing and moaning about, it doesn’t have a counter to it to stop them from doing it.

Nikkinella.8254:

You do know immobilize works right? Whenever I down an ele with my guardian I Immediately hit Chains of Light before they get the chance to do anything. Line of Warding also works but not every class can block off an area like that, but every class does have atleast 1 immobilize skill. They try to mist form, float in place for a few seconds, drop, then get stomped. If you can’t immobilize them and secure the kill before they escape, that’s a L2P issue on your part. The same way immobilize also worked on RTL pretty much making ele a free kill if you did it just as they activated the skill since they would be locked out of all of their skills for the duration of the spell. But no, heaven forbid anyone actually use their brain and the skills their class has at their disposal. lets all cry on the forums till it’s nerfed into oblivion instead. The only thing that does need to be nerfed in this game is a thief’s stealth as unlike the skill you’re kitten ing and moaning about, it doesn’t have a counter to it to stop them from doing it.

Once again you are fighting elementalists who are sitting there till their invulnerability goes off before using vapor form. A downed player is invulnerable for the first 1-1.5 seconds and all previous conditions are wiped. Vapor form is up the moment they are downed and can be used while they are still invulnerable with 0 conditions on them.

Nikkinella.8254:

You do know immobilize works right? Whenever I down an ele with my guardian I Immediately hit Chains of Light before they get the chance to do anything. Line of Warding also works but not every class can block off an area like that, but every class does have atleast 1 immobilize skill. They try to mist form, float in place for a few seconds, drop, then get stomped. If you can’t immobilize them and secure the kill before they escape, that’s a L2P issue on your part. The same way immobilize also worked on RTL pretty much making ele a free kill if you did it just as they activated the skill since they would be locked out of all of their skills for the duration of the spell. But no, heaven forbid anyone actually use their brain and the skills their class has akittens disposal. lets all cry on the forums till it’s nerfed into oblivion instead. The only thing that does need to be nerfed in this game is a thief’s stealth as unlike the skill you’re kitten ing and moaning about, it doesn’t have a counter to it to stop them from doing it.

I’m getting tired of hearing this because this is not true.

As soon as you enter downed state all conditions are cleared and you receive roughly one second of invulnerability. During that one second they can still use vapor form and you can’t immobilize them because they’re invulnerable. Vapor form bypasses line of warding since they are invulnerable during vapor form.

Do you see the problem with what you said?

Then why have I never had a problem doing it? The second you see them hit the floor, you immobilize them. Works every single time. I don’t know what you’re doing wrong that you can’t do it when everyone else can. Maybe your timing is off.

Archon.6481:

Nikkinella.8254:

You do know immobilize works right? Whenever I down an ele with my guardian I Immediately hit Chains of Light before they get the chance to do anything. Line of Warding also works but not every class can block off an area like that, but every class does have atleast 1 immobilize skill. They try to mist form, float in place for a few seconds, drop, then get stomped. If you can’t immobilize them and secure the kill before they escape, that’s a L2P issue on your part. The same way immobilize also worked on RTL pretty much making ele a free kill if you did it just as they activated the skill since they would be locked out of all of their skills for the duration of the spell. But no, heaven forbid anyone actually use their brain and the skills their class has akittens disposal. lets all cry on the forums till it’s nerfed into oblivion instead. The only thing that does need to be nerfed in this game is a thief’s stealth as unlike the skill you’re kitten ing and moaning about, it doesn’t have a counter to it to stop them from doing it.

I’m getting tired of hearing this because this is not true.

As soon as you enter downed state all conditions are cleared and you receive roughly one second of invulnerability. During that one second they can still use vapor form and you can’t immobilize them because they’re invulnerable. Vapor form bypasses line of warding since they are invulnerable during vapor form.

Do you see the problem with what you said?

Agreed. And further more, the one saying eles entering towers and keeps in downed mode is no problem, says that thief stealth should be nerferd. That makes me just laugh (yes I have a thief, but barely use her). Thiefes are no issue for me at all. Stealth is a L2P issue…

Back on topic: Imho it shouldn’t be possible for eles to enter towers while downed (as long as the walls or gates aren’t broken that is^^). It leaves them with very little risk to hack away in front of the tower and is inconsequent design, when a thief can’t blink in the keep in downed state, a mesmer can’t blink in a keep in downed state (if by any chance he teleports in the right direction). I do not want the eles to lose the skill, just don’t let the get in keeps by using this, that’s all.

It’s not fair that thieves can turn invisible while downed. Ele can’t do that.
It’s not fair that mesmers can summon a phantasm while downed. Ele can’t do that.
It’s not fair that rangers can outheal multiple attackers with their pet heal. Ele can’t do that.

And on…
And on…
And on…..

Better nerf them all to insure class balance.

Classes have different abilities with different advantages and disadvantages. Unless an ele has a safe place to vapor form to, he has the worst downed state in the game. He’s 100% for certain going to be stomped. If he goes down at the same time as any other class, he will 100% lose that downed fight. Even if he vapor forms out of range the enemy will be able to start healing first and the ele is going to get stomped.

Being able to vapor form through a portal is a nice perk, but it’s not that big of a deal. An ele can cover ~800ish range during that time. You should have people intercepting people trying to enter the tower much farther out. If you wait until they’re at the gate, pretty much everyone but terribles are going to get in. If he was already in the tower and jumped out to melee you (lol), you should be thankful that he’s flat out doing it wrong. A staff ele inside a tower makes it nearly impossible to build rams or take a tower without multiple golems.

“Nobody else can do that” is not a valid reason to change an ability, because every single class has abilities that qualify (most even in downed state). This is a discussion that has been had a dozen times and it’s time for people to get over it.

Can Thieves use Shadow Escape to get through tower/keep portals? I’ve never actually had an opportunity to try it.

frostshade.3617:

Bubbles.1047:

Eles have light armor, low health and do comparably low damage. They’re made of wet paper and attack you with noodles. So they can escape death if they’re close enough to a tower. That’s your beef? Really? How about we strive for class balance instead?

Your not playing ele right at all maybe you should reroll eles can put out really high damage or be one of the hardest to kill classes in game

And how exactly does this clash with what I’ve said? Reading is hard?

Bubbles.1047:

Eles have light armor, low health and do comparably low damage. They’re made of wet paper and attack you with noodles. So they can escape death if they’re close enough to a tower. That’s your beef? Really? How about we strive for class balance instead?

How is one profession being almost unkillable when within a certain range of a tower/keep class balance? Yes, it can be countered with a preemptive immobilize, but even so Vapor Form is extremely more powerful than the downed skills of any other profession in WvW.

I think movement speed during vapor form should reduced to make it more in line with other downed skills that offer mobility and while in vapor form you should not be allowed to enter towers/keeps. In terms of downed states at least, that would be a step towards class balance.

Bubbles.1047:

frostshade.3617:

Bubbles.1047:

Eles have light armor, low health and do comparably low damage. They’re made of wet paper and attack you with noodles. So they can escape death if they’re close enough to a tower. That’s your beef? Really? How about we strive for class balance instead?

Your not playing ele right at all maybe you should reroll eles can put out really high damage or be one of the hardest to kill classes in game

And how exactly does this clash with what I’ve said? Reading is hard?

I didn’t know wet paper could 1v10. And that 6k ms crits wakittenting like a wet noodle