Guild Wars 2

Something needs to be done about servers “tanking” before the WvW tournaments. Some possibilities would be to:

1) Fix the rankings for the tournament the day the tournament is announced. This may require some other restriction on movement or participation (if you do move) after the announcement to prevent flocking to the top servers.

2) Make the worst reward in a higher tier better than the best reward in a lower tier. I don’t know that people play for rewards, but those who do would be motivated to do their best rather than fall to a lower tier intentionally.

Finally, in cases where a server is provably tanking on a large scale, such servers should be banned from the upcoming tournament. I have been a proud member of Dragonbrand since 8/25/2012, but I’m absolutely ashamed by the massive number of people and guild leaders on Dragonbrand choosing to lose between now and the tournament start. Proof of this can easily be found in the chat logs from WvW.

In Guild Wars I, “match fixing” was a bannable offense for HA and other PvP formats. I would like to see this form of match fixing, that has the goal of “beating up” weaker opponents during the tournament, punished similarly.

Tanking before the tourney brings a WvW community together, facing 5 weeks of being out coveraged and stomped is what destroys it.

Db cd sbi dr YB are all in a good place right now with even matches that any side can win. T2 – not so much……

1) There is no way to prove that a ser er is tanking. So banning without evidence is not something Anet will do.
2) Even if you look at the result, they may say that they are taking a break. You can’t prove otherwise.
3) You can’t force people/guilds to WvW. It’s completely upto them.

Stora Ge.9207:

2) Make the worst reward in a higher tier better than the best reward in a lower tier. I don’t know that people play for rewards, but those who do would be motivated to do their best rather than fall to a lower tier intentionally.

As a member of a lower tier server, I resent the fact that you think that being from a higher tiered server should give a player better rewards. I understand that you are trying to combat a problem that sounds incredibly frustrating, but if you tried playing on a low tier server for a while and you understood how much work it takes to actually complete the meta events just to qualify for any reward at all, I think you would see the issues with your proposition.

The fact that a server is even coordinated enough to tank on purpose is something that low tier servers can’t even imagine. We have limited coverage and even less coordination, never mind long-term goals like match fixing. While I agree that tanking before the tournament is shady, punishing the already struggling servers is NOT the way to fix it.

Do you even understand why servers like Dragonbrand are tanking? Sorry but no thank you to another WvW tournament like Season 2. #6 in Gold league because other servers managed to out-tanked us on their way to silver. Were it not for the ticket fiasco we wouldn’t even have a weapon skin. This server learned its lesson last season by not tanking hard enough.

This is the kind of mess you get when you have coverage wars, a slow-moving rating system, bandwagon servers, and rewards heavily dependent on performance within a league/matchup.

DaveGan.8065:

Do you even understand why servers like Dragonbrand are tanking? Sorry but no thank you to another WvW tournament like Season 2. #6 in Gold league because other servers managed to out-tanked us on their way to silver. Were it not for the ticket fiasco we wouldn’t even have a weapon skin. This server learned its lesson last season by not tanking hard enough.

This is the kind of mess you get when you have coverage wars, a slow-moving rating system, bandwagon servers, and rewards heavily dependent on performance within a league/matchup.

Whichever server moves up in our matchup is going to be so screwed…Sadly it looks like if one does it will be us.

Not necessarily. If we get to T2 next week (most likely) we are gonna get destroyed and will be back to T3

The server most screwed will be the one who sucks up all of Mag’s ratings, not the one who ends up rolling T2 for 1 week before leagues.

NiloyBardhan.9170:

1) There is no way to prove that a ser er is tanking. So banning without evidence is not something Anet will do.
2) Even if you look at the result, they may say that they are taking a break. You can’t prove otherwise.
3) You can’t force people/guilds to WvW. It’s completely upto them.

As I mentioned, in the case of DB, it is very provable. Simply look at the chat logs from WvW. You’ll see guild leaders saying not to siege, not to cap, and describing the events of the “server meeting” where the decision to tank was made. I agree with (2), you can’t prove it based on score. I’m not talking about making people WvW, just the cases where there is hard evidence that a large proportion of the WvW participants are trying to lose intentionally.

Let’s be real here…

It’s been nice knowing whoever takes mags spot. Enjoy the fun while it last and bring lube. You’ll need it, a lot of it.

DaveGan.8065:

Do you even understand why servers like Dragonbrand are tanking? Sorry but no thank you to another WvW tournament like Season 2. #6 in Gold league because other servers managed to out-tanked us on their way to silver. Were it not for the ticket fiasco we wouldn’t even have a weapon skin. This server learned its lesson last season by not tanking hard enough.

This is the kind of mess you get when you have coverage wars, a slow-moving rating system, bandwagon servers, and rewards heavily dependent on performance within a league/matchup.

I’ve been on Dragonbrand since the beginning and was there every day last season. We came in last every week except one (when we came in 2nd). I understand why people want to tank, just like I understand why people wanted to fix matches in HA, or have “RedDead” day in Hero Battles, and various other forms of cheating which weren’t considered acceptable.

Stora Ge.9207:

NiloyBardhan.9170:

1) There is no way to prove that a ser er is tanking. So banning without evidence is not something Anet will do.
2) Even if you look at the result, they may say that they are taking a break. You can’t prove otherwise.
3) You can’t force people/guilds to WvW. It’s completely upto them.

As I mentioned, in the case of DB, it is very provable. Simply look at the chat logs from WvW. You’ll see guild leaders saying not to siege, not to cap, and describing the events of the “server meeting” where the decision to tank was made. I agree with (2), you can’t prove it based on score. I’m not talking about making people WvW, just the cases where there is hard evidence that a large proportion of the WvW participants are trying to lose intentionally.

Punish this “match fixing” retroactively and there will be no players left on any server. Declaring that you will start enforcing and punishing will simply make it so you never see these conversations in chat…or guilds/commanders in WvW. You know something is up but you don’t know what or who exactly, and anyone can claim that they “weren’t feeling it” for the week.

Also, looking up at your original post again, lol @ punishing HA match fixing in GW1. Take a look at obs mode. Only way to win nowadays is to fight your own AFK alts, and that’s exactly what people do. Rupt bots? Heal bots? AFK leech bots? JQ bombers? Yeah let’s keep cherrypicking ideals from the cesspool reality of GW1 PvP.

EDIT: So I went to check the maps just now, this is what I saw.

Servers that tank are cowards. Why would you want to be in Silver League and get no good fights when you can be in Gold League where there will be bags galore?

Tanking is a punishable offense in officially organised sport events.

GW2 is a game which players pay (they are customers and not contestants) and nobody can ever force you to play wvw if you don’t feel like it, build siege (which you pay for) if you don’t want to, or capture a keep if you feel like running circles instead.

Nothing of what tanking is made of is a punishable offense in GW2.

hopefully Tier 3 and 4 remain as is. By far the best match up

I think us folks in BG/JQ/TC are just eager to have some fresh meat to beat up on for a change. -cracks knuckles-

Deli.1302:

Why would you want to be in Silver League and get no good fights when you can be in Gold League where you will be bags galore?

Fixed

DaveGan.8065:

Deli.1302:

Why would you want to be in Silver League and get no good fights when you can be in Gold League where you will be bags galore?

Fixed

So you are incapable of winning a real fight. Gotcha. Now I know why you want to be in Silver. It must be more fun to fight doors and upscales

Deli.1302:

DaveGan.8065:

Deli.1302:

Why would you want to be in Silver League and get no good fights when you can be in Gold League where you will be bags galore?

Fixed

So you are incapable of winning a real fight. Gotcha. Now I know why you want to be in Silver. It must be more fun to fight doors and upscales

“Good fights” = Buygate and 2v1 scandals? Fort Bandwagonwood and Oceanic PPT Wars?

DB never belonged in Gold last season and the fights were horrendous. The only reason we were in that position was because other servers tanked harder.

Here are the last 5 weeks of T2 and T3 matches. I think it’s pretty clear why so few people here want to move back up to T2. You’ll have to excuse us if our definition of “good fights” does not match yours.

Enjoy your loot bags, but certainly not from us.

lol, ban an entire server?!
But how do you know which WvW players are the ones tanking?
Anet will never ban transfers, transfers = gem purchases = $$$

I mean it’s not like we’ve been complaining about WvW to anet for the last 2 years to fix it or anything.
This is how anet wants WvW to be, and the guildmag interview with devon we found that there are absolutely no plans for it in the near future.

This is WvW, this is how WvW will be, and this is how anet want WvW to be.

DaveGan.8065:

DB never belonged in Gold last season and the fights were horrendous. The only reason we were in that position was because other servers tanked harder.

Get your facts straight. You are right that DB didn’t belong in Gold last season, but it wasn’t because of tanking.

DB got into gold by leapfrogging over Mag and FA because of the SoR implosion, not because of any tanking by FA or Mag. In fact both FA and Mag were trying their hardest to NOT go to silver, especially the GvG oriented guilds.

The last weeks before season 2 DB got over 160 glicko gain just from the three matches against a dying SoR to leapfrog over Mag and FA without even playing either of them. The last week before season 2 FA was against a T3 server and a T4 server, SoR had dropped out of T3. FA didn’t have enough spawn camping to catch up to DB’s 40 point lead or Mag’s 15 point lead.

Once FA was assured of silver, several guilds jumped from FA to SoS, Mag and DB just to avoid what happened in season 1.

DB did their time in gold, it is now time for YB to step up, and luckily for them it will only be 4 weeks.

DB is not the problem, nor is the tanking….The problem is that ANET should have thrown out Bronze/Silver/Gold and used that Swiss system to rank all 24 servers during leagues and in doing so left leagues 9 weeks or whatever it was.

The swiss system (or the variant of Winner goes up loser goes down) is the best way to balance the Glicko over time (IMO).

2 12 leagues might have been ok too…. Go CD !

Tanking is done due to a poor format. The only thing they can do to prevent tanking is to change the format of the tournament or the amount of information they give out about the format of the tournament ahead of time. I see zero chance of Arenanet banning for tanking or manually changing a server’s rating in response to tanking.

Also, if you decide the cutoffs a few weeks in advance, then everyone will just transfer before the tournament and servers will be even more stacked. If Anet cuts off ratings in advance AND prevent the option of transferring, then Arenanet isn’t profitting from server transfers.

Whoever decide to tank the match to be in a “better spot” is a sore looser, not a winner. What will you winning cardboard matches prove? That you are good? Uh, please… That you are clever? Sure, you are the only one who ever thought of doing something like that…

Do your best out of respect for the enemy, but first and foremost for you.

For those servers that were on the bubble of Gold it really didn’t matter in Season 2. Move up to gold got smashed. Stayed in silver got smashed worse.

Season 2 HoD was a T2 server stuck in Silver.

I think DB is just avoiding getting smashed like last season.. lets face it, there is 3 T1 servers and 2 true T2 servers.. and whoever ends up 6th is a T3 server up against T2 and T1 servers. Hell even the other two T1 servers ganged up to fix the results vs Blackgate

so the format should be changed, 2 × 12 team swiss style is best suggestion I have heard, but there has to be a better way.. because when a server gets smashed as hard as DB did last year, they lose ALOT of dedicated players (transferring servers, and many left the game altogether).. don’t think Anet wants to keep losing players, but they seem to love the transfer $$$

Stora Ge.9207:

1) Fix the rankings for the tournament the day the tournament is announced. This may require some other restriction on movement or participation (if you do move) after the announcement to prevent flocking to the top servers.

This is all that needs to be done. Rankings need to be fixed on the date of announcement. However I really don’t expect Arena Net to do anything about this. They’ll just look the other way, after all – it’s only WvW.

As for transfers – just make all transfers between the announcement and start 2K gems – that way they can soak even ore out of those of us who mainly WvW for pretty much crumbs.

I can’t speak for anyone but me – and as distasteful as it is, if Mags tanks better than us – that’s it for me. I’m just having way to much fun in a certain other game to deal with the frustrations imminent with this tournament

Orswich.6423:

I think DB is just avoiding getting smashed like last season.. lets face it, there is 3 T1 servers and 2 true T2 servers.. and whoever ends up 6th is a T3 server up against T2 and T1 servers. Hell even the other two T1 servers ganged up to fix the results vs Blackgate

so the format should be changed, 2 × 12 team swiss style is best suggestion I have heard, but there has to be a better way.. because when a server gets smashed as hard as DB did last year, they lose ALOT of dedicated players (transferring servers, and many left the game altogether).. don’t think Anet wants to keep losing players, but they seem to love the transfer $$$

Most of those guilds left when DB dropped back down to T3 after the tournament. And they transferred to T2. Now you know where DB wanted to be. The only ones that wanted to be in silver were the ones that wanted to faceroll the tournament and get easy achievements.

Pokitic and server level tactic is the part of the game. Lose a game to win 4? Sounds like a good plan

Deli.1302:

Most of those guilds left when DB dropped back down to T3 after the tournament. And they transferred to T2. Now you know where DB wanted to be. The only ones that wanted to be in silver were the ones that wanted to faceroll the tournament and get easy achievements.

Nice convenient narrative you got there. Yes a lot of the server was initially proud of being in gold. It took less than a week for that to turn to hindsight and regret. At least we seem to be learning. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…

As far as the guilds who transferred, are you talking about guilds like the ones who transferred to SoS? They were looking for “good fights”, too, yes? It’s clear where the good fights won’t be in Season 3.

Someone in T3 better grow some and be ready to move up because even if it doesn’t happen in season it will happen immediately afterwards.
Mag is dropping down, that’s a real thing; not a temporary thing that’s just happening for the Season.

Something to also point out, tanking has never been good for any server that has attempted it.

Those who want to play the game get disgusted, and they either quit or transfer.

I know that if I were looking for a server the last place I’d be looking for is a bunch of cowards looking for cheap and easy rewards in Silver.

Also remember, there’s opportunity here. SoS is where it is now specifically because we pushed for Gold; and that’s what kept Maguuma pushing hard for a long time once people saw their willingness to fight they got transfers as well.

Servers 1-4 have Full Status (SoS only sometimes) so people looking to move up only will have two choices.

Dragonbrand: Come hug your old buddies in gold league, pls. We haz malk and Saltine crackerz.

if i am understanding correct the phrase tanking the problem is coming that all people want to go to tier 1 and to first servers because of bigger chance of the best results and as result of this to have better rewards .

so the problem is coming from rewards and not so much from the current position.

i had suggested in the past the first prices are not double from the the third , but anet continues to give the double rewards to first server and they are screwing the second and much more the third .

in real sport leagues same happens ( big cities , have big money and big teams ) , but iin gw2 this situation creates paradise servers with 300% coverage all the time and toxic servers that nobody wants to be in ….

for this reason the prices should be

first : 200 , second : 175 , third : 150 and not 200 / 150 /100 as it is now.

in 4 weeks tournament one server with 4 wins will have 800 tournament tickets and one server with 4 defeats will have 600 tournament tickets .600 tickets is a good reward compared to 800 …. 400 is the half of 800 and people join the servers with more chances to have 800 tickets after 4 weeks.

now a bad coverage server ( history proved that bad coverage servers have better players ) with 4 defeats will win the half rewards from a server that have 100% coverage all the time .

p.s. i hope server transfers that triggers the current reward system is not something that is coming from any business model …..

Make the rewards 100 tickets a week for the lowest rankings ones (ie 4+), 105 for third, 110 for 2nd, and 115 for first every week, and most of that will go away (or just make them all the same outside of the finishers and minis you get at the end of season) and the system will stop to be that toxic (for a bit at least).

I don’t see how Anet can justify PUNISHING players for not bandwagooning the server(s) most likely to join.
If transferts were free all day long, i would maybe understand (it would still be stupid and a problem but bearable) but this way it’s ridiculous.

Basically Anet is saying : “you want nice things, pay us to transfert out of your server that is screwed because WE decided to use a system screwing it over.
You are loyal/have friends on your server ? You’re shafted trolololololol”

DB is tanking because we know what happened to us last season. We ended up in gold with no coverage to actually be able to compete on that level. We were constantly out numbered in wvw. This destroyed our playerbase. Our fairweathers went back to pve. Our guilds got jaded and transferred off with the exception of the few loyal ones.

Gold sucked.

That’s why we’re trying to stay silver T3. The servers at this tier are even matches for us. It can be anyone’s game. That keeps us fighting through thursday afternoon. It will be healthier for our community as fairweathers will come out. Our guilds need new faces to replenish our rosters.

We’re not trying to game the system for easier rewards. We’re trying to keep our server’s WvW population intact. That won’t happen in T2 so we have to tank to stay in T3.

lioka qiao.8734:

DB is tanking because we know what happened to us last season. We ended up in gold with no coverage to actually be able to compete on that level. We were constantly out numbered in wvw. This destroyed our playerbase. Our fairweathers went back to pve. Our guilds got jaded and transferred off with the exception of the few loyal ones.

Gold sucked.

That’s why we’re trying to stay silver T3. The servers at this tier are even matches for us. It can be anyone’s game. That keeps us fighting through thursday afternoon. It will be healthier for our community as fairweathers will come out. Our guilds need new faces to replenish our rosters.

We’re not trying to game the system for easier rewards. We’re trying to keep our server’s WvW population intact. That won’t happen in T2 so we have to tank to stay in T3.

I totally agree with this. Right now there are 5 T3 servers. Any week we get good fights all week long. This season is going to be a lot of fun because we are all balanced and the result can go any way. This will be fun. Now one of us is going to have to go to gold tier and being out number will not be fun.

Chris.3290:

Someone in T3 better grow some and be ready to move up because even if it doesn’t happen in season it will happen immediately afterwards.
Mag is dropping down, that’s a real thing; not a temporary thing that’s just happening for the Season.

There is no guarantee that Mag is dropping before seasons and looking at the current scores a decent chance they will stay T2 for the tournament. If Mag doesn’t drop, all the current T3 servers will be able to stay put until mid-October.

Everyone is making the assumption that Mag can and will drop but it will probably take a lucky match up roll in the next two weeks. Even then Mag may very well be a T5 or lower server before the bloodletting is done.

lioka qiao.8734:

DB is tanking because we know what happened to us last season. We ended up in gold with no coverage to actually be able to compete on that level. We were constantly out numbered in wvw. This destroyed our playerbase. Our fairweathers went back to pve. Our guilds got jaded and transferred off with the exception of the few loyal ones.

Gold sucked.

That’s why we’re trying to stay silver T3. The servers at this tier are even matches for us. It can be anyone’s game. That keeps us fighting through thursday afternoon. It will be healthier for our community as fairweathers will come out. Our guilds need new faces to replenish our rosters.

We’re not trying to game the system for easier rewards. We’re trying to keep our server’s WvW population intact. That won’t happen in T2 so we have to tank to stay in T3.

It is still a sad way to behave. The one that truly deserve the spot should be the one that get there period. Mag was demolished in all the tournaments and it is not what is making us implode now. Yes, whoever end-up 6th in gold league is doomed. You will at best be 5th if you try effing hard. But knowing this in advance there is no shame in not making the best score. Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

It is still a sad way to behave. The one that truly deserve the spot should be the one that get there period. Mag was demolished in all the tournaments and it is not what is making us implode now. Yes, whoever end-up 6th in gold league is doomed. You will at best be 5th if you try effing hard. But knowing this in advance there is no shame in not making the best score. Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

I don’t think you understand, T3 is FUN right now. There are 5 VERY even servers right now. If Season 3 is set up even halfway decent, and none of us end up having to move into gold, it’s going to be a fun 4 weeks for all of us. Of course this could all be for nothing if we don’t even fight each other and have to fight the lower servers in Silver for the 4 weeks….

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

When rewards are involved all bets and honor are off. We may not change your mind but there is no longer any guilt in manipulating the outcome taking a break from WvW for the next few weeks.

sirflamesword.3896:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

It is still a sad way to behave. The one that truly deserve the spot should be the one that get there period. Mag was demolished in all the tournaments and it is not what is making us implode now. Yes, whoever end-up 6th in gold league is doomed. You will at best be 5th if you try effing hard. But knowing this in advance there is no shame in not making the best score. Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

I don’t think you understand, T3 is FUN right now. There are 5 VERY even servers right now. If Season 3 is set up even halfway decent, and none of us end up having to move into gold, it’s going to be a fun 4 weeks for all of us. Of course this could all be for nothing if we don’t even fight each other and have to fight the lower servers in Silver for the 4 weeks….

Believe me I do understand. The ironic part for Mag is that the first few weeks vs SoS and FA was extremely FUN and decided on Friday (it tells you a lot about what actually went wrong). However, someone has to fill that spot and if someone does it has to be the real strongest server that get it. It’s not just fair, it is logical.

DaveGan.8065:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

When rewards are involved all bets and honor are off. We may not change your mind but there is no longer any guilt in manipulating the outcome taking a break from WvW for the next few weeks.

No wonder the world circle the drain…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

No wonder the world circle the drain…

You act as if it’s completely our fault. When the system tells you “we’ll significantly punish whoever of you in this group (T3 level servers) tries the hardest” you can bet that people on those servers stop wanting to try and have the same feelings toward ANet that you’re expressing to us.

The ends 110% justify the means, and there is nothing ANet can do to punish the server that is worse than the outcome achieved by “trying hard”. Perhaps you could focus just a bit of that outrage toward them as well.

DaveGan.8065:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

No wonder the world circle the drain…

You act as if it’s completely our fault. When the system tells you “we’ll significantly punish whoever of you in this group (T3 level servers) tries the hardest” you can bet that people on those servers stop wanting to try and have the same feelings toward ANet that you’re expressing to us.

The ends 110% justify the means, and there is nothing ANet can do to punish the server that is worse than the outcome achieved by “trying hard”. Perhaps you could focus just a bit of that outrage toward them as well.

A-Net does share responsibility. It is true. It’s the part where ppl won’t even try if there is no external carrot that I find sad.

Straegen.2938:

Chris.3290:

Someone in T3 better grow some and be ready to move up because even if it doesn’t happen in season it will happen immediately afterwards.
Mag is dropping down, that’s a real thing; not a temporary thing that’s just happening for the Season.

There is no guarantee that Mag is dropping before seasons and looking at the current scores a decent chance they will stay T2 for the tournament. If Mag doesn’t drop, all the current T3 servers will be able to stay put until mid-October.

Everyone is making the assumption that Mag can and will drop but it will probably take a lucky match up roll in the next two weeks. Even then Mag may very well be a T5 or lower server before the bloodletting is done.

It’s more likely that Mag will continue to lose over 50 points the next two weeks and drop to 9th-10th ranked server regardless of what the T3 servers do. If Mag does happen to get paired with a T3 server the week before tournament they will lose even more points.

SoR imploded before last season losing 260 points in just three weeks, but SoR did fall from a higher rank. You can expect less and less Mag players in the next two weeks before the tournament starts as they transfer or take a break.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

DaveGan.8065:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Too many play to win instead of playing as winners regardless of end results. If your server is so full of people who will only play if they win it might be good news for you if they go elsewhere…

When rewards are involved all bets and honor are off. We may not change your mind but there is no longer any guilt in manipulating the outcome taking a break from WvW for the next few weeks.

No wonder the world circle the drain…

WvW tournaments are like having a sPvP tournament where instead of 5 man teams, one side gets 5 and the other gets 4, or 3, or 2, or 1.

Would you play in that tournament? Didn’t think so.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

A-Net does share responsibility. It is true. It’s the part where ppl won’t even try if there is no external carrot that I find sad.

There’s a difference between “no external carrot” and being punished. In the context of defending in WvW, one is like “great job keeping watch and deterring the enemy, here’s nothing for your efforts!” while the other is closer to “great job keeping watch and deterring the enemy, we’re now taking 5 gold from each of you!”

Also keep in mind a lot of the players who participate in these tournaments don’t find WvW fun in the first place.