Guild Wars 2

Anyone else feel like

- there is no siege counter to omega (unlike every other siege)
- render nearly every defense siege useless
- is a slap in the face to any defender
- it’s a pay to win solution

Only requirements to use them is to outnumber your opponents and spend 10s of golds to build them. Then let the karma train begin!

I have been on both side. I have massively used omegas to take fortified keeps and I have lost tons of fortified keeps to omegas.

But really, the biggest problem with them is :

It’s not fun to play with omegas in their current state.

It’s not fun to attack a keep with them because, if you can win the zerg fight than you will cap the keep. It’s guaranteed. You know you outnumber your opponents, you build your omegas and you take the keep. No challenge at all.

The reverse is not fun either. Defending against a big horde that use smart ballista, ram, arrow cart and catapult placement to take down your walls, gates or sieges is fun. Defending against a blob that bring omegas is super boring. Throw siege disabler, attack from top of wall, suicide on it, try to build arrow carts. No matter what you try it’s usually useless the gate will go down and your only option is to have a nice meat grinder ready inside.

Omegas also heavily favored the winning server that field the biggest blobs.

Playing with or against omegas is just not fun.

I understand what you write. Wining server have alot of Omega Golem because they have alot of money and alot of player compare to the other losing server with less money and less player. I feel it is not ok to ask to nerf Omega Golem because of that. Arena net make possible for Omega Golem blueprint be access to all player and server in trading post and in drop. Cost 2 gold 17 silver and 15> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Omega_Siege_Golem_Blueprints

For server to have alot of omega golem, they need alot of player to use. So problem is not omega golem but server population. (a server can be very rich than all other server to buy omega blueprint; if they do not have player to use them, mean nothing)

I have suggestion;

1. Suggestion- maybe arena net can limit how many Omega golem when fight losing server and against keep ? also same suggestion with fight less player in server in wvw?

2. Suggestion- maybe arena net can limit omega golem power when fight losing server and with less player in server in keep?

May make fun and challenge?

DarkSyze.8627:

For server to have alot of omega golem, they need alot of player to use. So problem is not omega golem but server population. (a server can be very rich than all other server to buy omega blueprint; if they do not have player to use them, mean nothing)

When a server has a much larger zerg, it can still be slowed down sometimes, but this is pretty much impossible if it has omegas. Any effort to deal with the population imbalance directly creates a lot of problems, but reducing the availability of omegas will help an outnumbered group by taking away one of the tools that the zerg has.

You can make golems harder to mass by doing the following:

• Increase the supply costs of golems dramatically.
• Make it impossible to refresh the despawn timer of golems.
• Make it impossible to transport supply from one map to another.

Counters to omega golems:

1)Forward scouting. Catch them before they get to your keep/tower. This gives defenders more time to get ready on the siege or for your zerg to come wipe them in open field.
2)Mesmers dropping feedback on the golems
3)Guardians dropping wall of reflection in front of the gate. You can even drop it from behind the gate and it’ll still work if I remember correctly.
4)Proper siege placement. Trebs, acs and ballistas. If you build them in the right spots, they can’t be taken out by golems.
5)Siege Disablers

A good nerf would be to disallow the ability waypoint golems in a map.

Viva la golem mastery!….Oh wait a minute….

A good nerf would also be to lower the limit from what is it, 55 I believe to something more reasonable for omegas. Like, say, 5.

Deli.1302:

Counters to omega golems:

1)Forward scouting. Catch them before they get to your keep/tower. This gives defenders more time to get ready on the siege or for your zerg to come wipe them in open field.

Have you heard of chained mesmer portals? Golem can pop from spawn to your keep in 10 seconds. I have done many such attacks. The defenders don’t have time to prepare siege or rally when you do that.

Deli.1302:

2)Mesmers dropping feedback on the golems
3)Guardians dropping wall of reflection in front of the gate. You can even drop it from behind the gate and it’ll still work if I remember correctly.

And oil reflect or any other skills that absorb/reflect stuff. Thing is, unless the golem driver is very dumb, he will not continue to shoot if he’s inside a mesmer feedback field or if he sees a wall of reflection on the gate.

What is even worse is that because of the very high health of the omegas, even very bad players that continue attacking, even if their missile are reflected, don’t even kill themselves before the gate go down. It’s ridiculous.

Deli.1302:

4)Proper siege placement. Trebs, acs and ballistas. If you build them in the right spots, they can’t be taken out by golems.

Screenshots?

ACs : There is not a single spot where you can place them that will hit every place an omega can “hide” while attacking the gate AND that can’t be destroyed by the omega (unless you are using zoom hack). Couple with the fact that arrow carts only tickle the omegas, it might very well be one of the most useless siege against omega rushes to protect the gate.

Ballista : Very hard to find a spot where it can hit the omegas AND cannot be instantly destroyed by all the players doing the golem rush. Few notable exceptions are some of the keep where you can place them above the dome. Still omegas can find spot to hide from it and the enemy zerg can kill them with their own ballista.

Trebuchet/Mortar : Very hard to hit every spots in front of the gate with it. Omega can easily find a place to hide from those shots.

Cannon : Siege disabled as soon as the zerg ran it to protect the golems and then focus by the players in a few seconds.

Deli.1302:

5)Siege Disablers

Sadly, siege disablers are the only real counter but they don’t do any damage. You will only delay the rushes. And if the omegas spread, you will only be able to disable 1 or 2 at a time. In the end the gate is going down, or wall.

I have commanded my fare share of omega rushes to victory and frankly, it’s boring. There is no counter to omega rushes when you outnumber your opponents. You WILL take their keep, no question asked.

Nerf that I think might work with omegas are :

1. Increase the supply required to build them : like at least double it
2. Make them do no damage to gate or wall : they would only be used to kill siege
3. Reduce their health

Solution 2-3 could be combined together and could come with a reduce cost.

So your first argument point is to nerf golems, because of mesmer portals? Talk about a broken mentality that can hamstring a game and ruin it for everyone. Call that sentence extreme if you like, but the second you start promoting a nerf to completely unrelated items, such as siege, because of a professions skill, then your clearly reaching to find any conjured excuse for what you want, over discovering an actual solution.

I have yet to see a single argument that supports this idea that golems are OP or need a nerf. I have personally destroyed, or participated in the destruction of entirely too many golems to buy this lame argument.

Screenshots you ask? Do you have any screen shots to support your claim that intelligently placed ACs and other siege do not counter golems? Seems hypocritical of you to demand such evidence of their perspective, when you seem to lack any evidence to support yours.

As too balistas, you claim “Very hard to find a spot where it can hit the omegas AND cannot be instantly destroyed by all the players doing the golem rush.”……………………..Yet balistas have an enormous range compared to both the golems and the players. Your complaint is not the same here. Previously you were defending the notion that goelems are OP, now your complaining about the enemy players countering the counter to golems. So which is it? are the enemy players OP or the golems? stop waffling and pick one.

In my experience, if siege disablers are the only counter you have, then that is your an issue you have. One thing players need to learn, is that their experiences do not encompass that of the entire player base. When you demand a nerf based on your experiences of poor planning or strategy, you participate in degrading the game for the entire population. With that in mind, perhaps you should be more concerned about how this effects everyone as a whole, and not just your limited experience.

There are very few ways to counter omegas with current siege. the way their skill 1 arcs high before hitting the target allows them to clear all the ACs from the wall that would otherwise counter rams and catas.

I would like to see some better counter play options too.

No don’t nerf them. Eliminate them.

They are just one more addtion to the game that Anet made that gives even more advantage to the strong.

Anet did not understand their game mode and the problems inherent to it. They made all these additions that did nothing but make already existing issues worse.

Get rid of all superior siege in fact. You will see how much more fun the game becomes.

In fact I propose this to be one of their “tests”. Like getting rid of white swords and adding PPK. Have a month where superior siege is unusable and see what happens.

I hate this siege wars but mobile sieges are fun

Johje Holan.4607:

No don’t nerf them. Eliminate them.

They are just one more addtion to the game that Anet made that gives even more advantage to the strong.

Anet did not understand their game mode and the problems inherent to it. They made all these additions that did nothing but make already existing issues worse.

Get rid of all superior siege in fact. You will see how much more fun the game becomes.

In fact I propose this to be one of their “tests”. Like getting rid of white swords and adding PPK. Have a month where superior siege is unusable and see what happens.

So you propose they remove a level of siege simply because you, personally are unable to deal with those attacking with siege? If you want player to player fights alone, your welcome to go play PvP or initiate battles in obsidian sanctum. I prefer the warlike aspects that WvW offers now, thanks. I prefer using strategic siege and counter siege, similarly to how battle is designed in this instance. All your doing is making claims, and demanding they redesign an already existing, fun game mode, to serve your personal desires, regardless of how it effect those who enjoy it.

If you want a with limited to no siege, then go offer that suggestion in the appropriate sub forums, and stop suggesting the ruin this one for you alone please.

I think arrow carts should be nerfed by 66%, too.

Out of all the sieges golems can be crit and conditioned putting them at a much higher disadvantage then other sieges. Its also very hard to remove these conditions on the golem.

Golems are pay to win.. need nerf.

Shouldn’t be able to use portals, shouldn’t be able to waypoint them.

Jski.6180:

Out of all the sieges golems can be crit and conditioned putting them at a much higher disadvantage then other sieges. Its also very hard to remove these conditions on the golem.

+1

And once you use all of your defending siege to kill the golems’ accompanying group, they fall like so much ripe wheat.

Indeed, golem are no fun at all if you on the defensive side. Even of the offensive side you either use them cos you are bored, the enemy have filled their tower with dozens of arrow carts and refuse to come out to play, or cos you have no skill even when you out-man the other server 3-1 and still need golems to take a tower or keep.

As said golem are pay to win, you pay gold for the blueprints; and although these prints can be bought by everyone if they so wish, lower populated servers may not have the gold needed or players required. You make a lot less gold in the losing server so the cost of buying an omega golem isnt justified to many.

Who wants their entire evenings hard-earned gold and hours of upgrading their towers to T3, only for them to fall when the enemy zerg still golem rushes when most of your server has gone to bed!

Anet have always used the excuse about balance; you call this balance?!
I’ve said it a few times before, WvW needs to be torn down and rebuilt properly; I very much doubt they spent much time on the expansion additions and changes, in fact I feel things could get a lot worse for WvW when the expansion comes out.

coglin.1867:

Stuff…

Way to take things out of context and create unrelated arguments.

Deli wrote that forward scouting could give you way enough time to prepare for a golem rush. To which I replied that good mesmer portals completely remove any advantage that scouting might provide. Don’t know what there is to argue here.

Next, you are telling that it is possible to counter omegas with sieges? Then go ahead, provide a screenshot of any siege placement you want and I will show you a screenshot how it can be countered by Omega by either moving to a place where it cannot hit the omega or can be destroyed by them. The most useful siege that I see is the cannon at garrison water gate, but even that can be line of sight by the omegas shooting at max range from the stairs.

But the biggest problem is that even when you don’t really counter all the defending siege by smart use of the omegas, the gate still go down before all your omegas get killed.

Rimmy.9217:

And once you use all of your defending siege to kill the golems’ accompanying group, they fall like so much ripe wheat.

Only really useful sieges to kill an entire zerg in front of your door/wall are arrow carts that can be destroyed by omegas in a few seconds.

There is no counter to a Zerg + Omega Combo, unless you also have a zerg of nearly the same size that can simply wipe every enemies.

Gudradain.3892:

Next, you are telling that it is possible to counter omegas with sieges? Then go ahead, provide a screenshot of any siege placement you want and I will show you a screenshot how it can be countered by Omega by either moving to a place where it cannot hit the omega or can be destroyed by them. The most useful siege that I see is the cannon at garrison water gate, but even that can be line of sight by the omegas shooting at max range from the stairs.

Given all of the video of my guild and server mates, as well as other guilds and servers, fending off and destroying attacking omegas, the challenge falls to you to prove you can attack a sieged location and prove that you cannot be defended against.

Gudradain.3892:

Only really useful sieges to kill an entire zerg in front of your door/wall are arrow carts that can be destroyed by omegas in a few seconds. By your logic, anything with as much as a mediocre ranged AoE needs a nerf.

There is no counter to a Zerg + Omega Combo, unless you also have a zerg of nearly the same size that can simply wipe every enemies.

I can train a monkey to destroy the same ACs with eles or engineers or necros or rangers etc.

As well, there is a plethora of counter to golems+zergs. Players have been fending off large forces with golems for almost 3 years now. Twitch and YouTube are packed with video evidence proving that.

Lopsided matches aren’t won because winning server has gold to buy blueprints. They have the supply to build them in en masse…. I’ve never been a fan of the omegas myself, but others like them so meh…..

Gudradain.3892:

Rimmy.9217:

And once you use all of your defending siege to kill the golems’ accompanying group, they fall like so much ripe wheat.

Only really useful sieges to kill an entire zerg in front of your door/wall are arrow carts that can be destroyed by omegas in a few seconds.

There is no counter to a Zerg + Omega Combo, unless you also have a zerg of nearly the same size that can simply wipe every enemies.

*cough*Ranked mortar from a distance*cough*

Plus instead of doing the “build a treb behind a gate to kill rams” thing, you build it so that you can still do the aoe through the gate, but can also arc over the wall to hit at least some of the area a bit back from the gate.

Ideally you use the ranged siege while your people are attacking/suiciding on the golems/zerg. I’ve suicided omega rushes down many times. And if it doesn’t succeed on that particular objective, then they have a bunch of damaged golems when they get to the next one.

~~~~~

And to people calling them pay to win – all it takes it 500 badges of honor and a few skill points to make one. If you don’t have ten people on your server who can afford that then you’re at a more serious disadvantage than a few golems.

Rimmy.9217:

*cough*Ranked mortar from a distance*cough*

Mortar placements are easily taken out by ground force AoE.

Rimmy.9217:

Plus instead of doing the “build a treb behind a gate to kill rams” thing, you build it so that you can still do the aoe through the gate, but can also arc over the wall to hit at least some of the area a bit back from the gate.

arc over the wall to hit at least some of the area a bit back from the gate… that doesn’t work on a omega driver with a brain.

Rimmy.9217:

Ideally you use the ranged siege while your people are attacking/suiciding on the golems/zerg. I’ve suicided omega rushes down many times. And if it doesn’t succeed on that particular objective, then they have a bunch of damaged golems when they get to the next one.

With mastery golems can stand in siege fire long enough to wipe all siege and still have plenty of health.

Rimmy.9217:

And to people calling them pay to win – all it takes it 500 badges of honor and a few skill points to make one. If you don’t have ten people on your server who can afford that then you’re at a more serious disadvantage than a few golems.

500 badges + 10 Mithril Ore + 10 Elder wood logs+ 3 skill points for a single golem.. why do think they are almost 3 gold each on the black lion trading company.. they are very expensive.. pay to win expensive.

Golems hardly pay to win….. Buying entire guilds to move maybe, but still don’t believe that myself….

coglin.1867:

Johje Holan.4607:

No don’t nerf them. Eliminate them.

They are just one more addtion to the game that Anet made that gives even more advantage to the strong.

Anet did not understand their game mode and the problems inherent to it. They made all these additions that did nothing but make already existing issues worse.

Get rid of all superior siege in fact. You will see how much more fun the game becomes.

In fact I propose this to be one of their “tests”. Like getting rid of white swords and adding PPK. Have a month where superior siege is unusable and see what happens.

So you propose they remove a level of siege simply because you, personally are unable to deal with those attacking with siege? If you want player to player fights alone, your welcome to go play PvP or initiate battles in obsidian sanctum. I prefer the warlike aspects that WvW offers now, thanks. I prefer using strategic siege and counter siege, similarly to how battle is designed in this instance. All your doing is making claims, and demanding they redesign an already existing, fun game mode, to serve your personal desires, regardless of how it effect those who enjoy it.

If you want a with limited to no siege, then go offer that suggestion in the appropriate sub forums, and stop suggesting the ruin this one for you alone please.

No its not about being able to deal with them. As mentioned by others, sure it is possible to defeat an Omega rush. But that’s not the point. Its that WvW would be better without them.

You seem to be assuming a lot and making things up. I never said “no siege”. Siege is an integral part of WvW. I like it too.

Getting rid of Superior Siege would not limit the warlike nature of WvW. Nor would it eliminate the strategic siege and counter siege that you, and I, enjoy.

What it would do is lessen the power creep that has occurred since launch. And power creep gives advantage to the already advantaged. Superior siege benefits the larger server as do most forms of power creep.

I always have to laugh when the server that vastly outnumbers the other two and is ahead by 200K brings 5 Omegas to attack the Gari or last Keep of the weak server. Like seriously as if you don’t outnumber them 5 to 1 anyway.

Deli.1302:

Counters to omega golems:

1)Forward scouting. Catch them before they get to your keep/tower. This gives defenders more time to get ready on the siege or for your zerg to come wipe them in open field.
2)Mesmers dropping feedback on the golems
3)Guardians dropping wall of reflection in front of the gate. You can even drop it from behind the gate and it’ll still work if I remember correctly.
4)Proper siege placement. Trebs, acs and ballistas. If you build them in the right spots, they can’t be taken out by golems.
5)Siege Disablers

1) A decently organized blob can chain port and or stealth omegas. Even a sloppier one can flash build them at your doorstep. Counter blobbing sometimes just isn’t an option.

2) and 3) The operator would have to be real dumb to have those skills which last a few seconds and have long CDs actually threaten such a large hp pool.

4) once again, who would sit there and let the slowest siege weapon in the game destroy an omega. I’ve yet to see a legit AC spot that can hit an omega without being shredded in seconds. Ballistas are prone to line of sight issues and omegas are mobile enough.

5) Disablers delay, that’s it. If there are several golems and the operators have the good sense to spread out and or actually use their bubbles, then good luck.

Their auto attack is so ridiculous because of the sheer range and high arc which is compounded by them being sooooo accessible. I think it does need adjusting. But then again so does being able to plop down 6 sup Rams on a gate.

coglin.1867:

As well, there is a plethora of counter to golems+zergs. Players have been fending off large forces with golems for almost 3 years now. Twitch and YouTube are packed with video evidence proving that.

Twitch and youtube are filled with video evidence of people winning 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v5, etc. Does that prove that having less people is better than having more people?

Johje Holan.4607:

No its not about being able to deal with them. As mentioned by others, sure it is possible to defeat an Omega rush. But that’s not the point. Its that WvW would be better without them.

You appear to have difficulty discerning objective fact from subjective opinion. Yes, being able to defeat them, and how it is done, is precisely the point when folks are claiming they are over powered, when they are not. It may be your personal opinion that WvW would be better without them. Unfortunately, you do not know this, yet state it as if it were a fact. As I see it, that is a strong sign of irrational bias in someone who is unwilling to listen to any other perspectives or as in your case, to pretend their own opinion, is a fact.

Johje Holan.4607:

You seem to be assuming a lot and making things up. I never said “no siege”. Siege is an integral part of WvW. I like it too.

My bad. You said

Johje Holan.4607:

Get rid of all superior siege in fact.

Yet you offer no reasoning, logic, or explanations as to why. As well, you might be wary of tossing out the “claim” that others are making folks up, after “claiming” your personal opinion as if it were fact.

Johje Holan.4607:

Getting rid of Superior Siege would not limit the warlike nature of WvW. Nor would it eliminate the strategic siege and counter siege that you, and I, enjoy.

Please, by all means, offer some factual evidence to support that.

Johje Holan.4607:

What it would do is lessen the power creep that has occurred since launch. And power creep gives advantage to the already advantaged. Superior siege benefits the larger server as do most forms of power creep.

That seems counter intuitive. Care to prove how equivalent “power creep” isn’t equivalent?

Johje Holan.4607:

I always have to laugh when the server that vastly outnumbers the other two and is ahead by 200K brings 5 Omegas to attack the Gari or last Keep of the weak server. Like seriously as if you don’t outnumber them 5 to 1 anyway.

Because 1 to 5 can defend that easily. As well, it can be just plain fun. Although you do expose your agenda here. Clearly this isn’t about golems for you. It is a weaker, sideways argument to complain about population imbalance feelings.

Cake.4920:

coglin.1867:

As well, there is a plethora of counter to golems+zergs. Players have been fending off large forces with golems for almost 3 years now. Twitch and YouTube are packed with video evidence proving that.

Twitch and youtube are filled with video evidence of people winning 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 2v5, etc. Does that prove that having less people is better than having more people?

No, not that I am aware of. Good thing I never suggested it did. As well, it has nothing to do with the conversation, other then confirming that some posters have an agenda to change the game mode as a whole for their personal issues with there limits in current match ups. For that, I thank you.

I don’t think so. On Kaineng, we were defending our keep (hills) with about 15 people against about 30-35. They had 4 Omegas. The trick is to get them as low as possible w/ ballistas and cannons. Having 2 sup ACs preventing players from AoEing the ballis/cannons is also necessary. Once the omegas down balli/cannons, keep up AC Fire on the golems, send 5 people out at a time, with stability on, to aim ONE golem at a time. Keep the targeted golem chilled and disabled. This will prevent it from running, and allow you to kill it without repercussions. I have killed many omegas with this strategy. Of course, the gate has to be upgraded if there are more than 2…

Johje Holan.4607:

No its not about being able to deal with them. As mentioned by others, sure it is possible to defeat an Omega rush. But that’s not the point. Its that WvW would be better without them.

coglin.1867:

You appear to have difficulty discerning objective fact from subjective opinion. Yes, being able to defeat them, and how it is done, is precisely the point when folks are claiming they are over powered, when they are not. It may be your personal opinion that WvW would be better without them. Unfortunately, you do not know this, yet state it as if it were a fact. As I see it, that is a strong sign of irrational bias in someone who is unwilling to listen to any other perspectives or as in your case, to pretend their own opinion, is a fact.

You’re way too literal and argumentative. Of course its my personal opinion that WvW would be better without Omegas – that’s why I said it. Would it help if I put “I believe” in front of all my statements? Well fine, you can just imagine that the “I beleive’s” are there. I think you’re the one who has trouble discerning objective fact from subjective opinion.

Johje Holan.4607:

You seem to be assuming a lot and making things up. I never said “no siege”. Siege is an integral part of WvW. I like it too.

coglin.1867:

My bad. You said

Let’s see, you assumed that I couldn’t deal with it. Being able to deal with something and thinking that it would be better without that something are not the same thing. You made up that I wanted player vs. player fights alone, you made up that I was demanding anything, you made up that I wanted limited to no siege.

Johje Holan.4607:

Getting rid of Superior Siege would not limit the warlike nature of WvW. Nor would it eliminate the strategic siege and counter siege that you, and I, enjoy.

coglin.1867:

Please, by all means, offer some factual evidence to support that.

Superior siege has not always existed in the game. The warlike nature and strategic siege and counter siege has always existed in the game. Therefore the warlike nature and strategic siege and counter siege has and will exist whether superior siege is in the game or not.

Johje Holan.4607:

What it would do is lessen the power creep that has occurred since launch. And power creep gives advantage to the already advantaged. Superior siege benefits the larger server as do most forms of power creep.

coglin.1867:

That seems counter intuitive. Care to prove how equivalent “power creep” isn’t equivalent?

I don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Johje Holan.4607:

I always have to laugh when the server that vastly outnumbers the other two and is ahead by 200K brings 5 Omegas to attack the Gari or last Keep of the weak server. Like seriously as if you don’t outnumber them 5 to 1 anyway.

coglin.1867:

Because 1 to 5 can defend that easily. As well, it can be just plain fun. Although you do expose your agenda here. Clearly this isn’t about golems for you. It is a weaker, sideways argument to complain about population imbalance feelings.

Now who’s having difficulty discerning objective fact from subjective opinion?

coglin.1867:

No, not that I am aware of. Good thing I never suggested it did. As well, it has nothing to do with the conversation, other then confirming that some posters have an agenda to change the game mode as a whole for their personal issues with there limits in current match ups. For that, I thank you.

Thank you, but it sounds like confirmation that some users have an agenda to keep the game mode unbalanced as a whole for their personal issues with there limits in current matchups, but that also has nothing to do with the conversation.

match ups are irrelevant and off topic. We have existing topic for that discussion, please push your agenda there please. This discussion has to do with specific siege. WvW is stated as never intended for balance. The fact that you guys cry balance based on imbalanced man power in fights as a justification to nerf something is irrational as i see it.

Don’t cry agenda at folks cake, then throw in your off topic and irrelevant complaint about equivalent manpower, it simply sabotages the fact that your derailing the topic.

Johje Holan.4607:

Johje Holan.4607:

I always have to laugh when the server that vastly outnumbers the other two and is ahead by 200K brings 5 Omegas to attack the Gari or last Keep of the weak server. Like seriously as if you don’t outnumber them 5 to 1 anyway.

coglin.1867:

Because 1 to 5 can defend that easily. As well, it can be just plain fun. Although you do expose your agenda here. Clearly this isn’t about golems for you. It is a weaker, sideways argument to complain about population imbalance feelings.

Now who’s having difficulty discerning objective fact from subjective opinion?

If I have videos of my guild using 15 players to defend and push back a 30 man zerg with 2 omegas, and videos like it, are all over internet, wouldn’t you agree that it is fact that it occurs, and not opinion?

Gudradain.3892:

Have you heard of chained mesmer portals? Golem can pop from spawn to your keep in 10 seconds. I have done many such attacks. The defenders don’t have time to prepare siege or rally when you do that.

You can’t go from spawn to keep in one portal. It would take more than 3 portals and the golems would have to do some walking in between. Plenty of time to spot them.

And oil reflect or any other skills that absorb/reflect stuff. Thing is, unless the golem driver is very dumb, he will not continue to shoot if he’s inside a mesmer feedback field or if he sees a wall of reflection on the gate.

A golem that’s not attacking sounds like a good thing to me.

Screenshots?

ACs : There is not a single spot where you can place them that will hit every place an omega can “hide” while attacking the gate AND that can’t be destroyed by the omega (unless you are using zoom hack). Couple with the fact that arrow carts only tickle the omegas, it might very well be one of the most useless siege against omega rushes to protect the gate.

Ballista : Very hard to find a spot where it can hit the omegas AND cannot be instantly destroyed by all the players doing the golem rush. Few notable exceptions are some of the keep where you can place them above the dome. Still omegas can find spot to hide from it and the enemy zerg can kill them with their own ballista.

Trebuchet/Mortar : Very hard to hit every spots in front of the gate with it. Omega can easily find a place to hide from those shots.

You build them high and you build them far. For ac’s you build them behind obstacles where it cannot be targeted. It’s really not my problem if you don’t know the spots.

dancingmonkey.4902:

If I have videos of my guild using 15 players to defend and push back a 30 man zerg with 2 omegas, and videos like it, are all over internet, wouldn’t you agree that it is fact that it occurs, and not opinion?

oscuro.9720:

I don’t think so. On Kaineng, we were defending our keep (hills) with about 15 people against about 30-35. They had 4 Omegas.

What about a 50 – 60 man zerg with 15 – 20 Omegas? A handful of defenders won’t stall enough for backup or respawn or anything.. they just bought themselves a PVD session.. pay to win.

dancingmonkey.4902:

match ups are irrelevant and off topic. We have existing topic for that discussion, please push your agenda there please. This discussion has to do with specific siege. WvW is stated as never intended for balance. The fact that you guys cry balance based on imbalanced man power in fights as a justification to nerf something is irrational as i see it.

Don’t cry agenda at folks cake, then throw in your off topic and irrelevant complaint about equivalent manpower, it simply sabotages the fact that your derailing the topic.

Johje Holan.4607:

Johje Holan.4607:

I always have to laugh when the server that vastly outnumbers the other two and is ahead by 200K brings 5 Omegas to attack the Gari or last Keep of the weak server. Like seriously as if you don’t outnumber them 5 to 1 anyway.

coglin.1867:

Because 1 to 5 can defend that easily. As well, it can be just plain fun. Although you do expose your agenda here. Clearly this isn’t about golems for you. It is a weaker, sideways argument to complain about population imbalance feelings.

Now who’s having difficulty discerning objective fact from subjective opinion?

If I have videos of my guild using 15 players to defend and push back a 30 man zerg with 2 omegas, and videos like it, are all over internet, wouldn’t you agree that it is fact that it occurs, and not opinion?

Yes it is a fact that it occurs, I never disputed that.

This statemet is subjective opininon though: “Because 1 to 5 can defend that easily.”

And this is again just making things up: “Although you do expose your agenda here. Clearly this isn’t about golems for you. It is a weaker, sideways argument to complain about population imbalance feelings.”

Chairface.9036:

Rimmy.9217:

*cough*Ranked mortar from a distance*cough*

Mortar placements are easily taken out by ground force AoE.

Which you are supposed to protect with your ACs, before the golems get there. If the golems are within range to hit the ACs, they’re close enough to get hit by the mortars.

Chairface.9036:

Rimmy.9217:

Plus instead of doing the “build a treb behind a gate to kill rams” thing, you build it so that you can still do the aoe through the gate, but can also arc over the wall to hit at least some of the area a bit back from the gate.

arc over the wall to hit at least some of the area a bit back from the gate… that doesn’t work on a omega driver with a brain.

Works on omega drivers who are trying to stay spread out from each other but still within range of the gate. Their range is already known, and dropping large aoe blasts will hit something. Their ground crew if not the golems themselves.

Chairface.9036:

Rimmy.9217:

Ideally you use the ranged siege while your people are attacking/suiciding on the golems/zerg. I’ve suicided omega rushes down many times. And if it doesn’t succeed on that particular objective, then they have a bunch of damaged golems when they get to the next one.

With mastery golems can stand in siege fire long enough to wipe all siege and still have plenty of health.

You missed the “while your people are attacking/suiciding on the golems/zerg” part?

Chairface.9036:

Rimmy.9217:

And to people calling them pay to win – all it takes it 500 badges of honor and a few skill points to make one. If you don’t have ten people on your server who can afford that then you’re at a more serious disadvantage than a few golems.

500 badges + 10 Mithril Ore + 10 Elder wood logs+ 3 skill points for a single golem.. why do think they are almost 3 gold each on the black lion trading company.. they are very expensive.. pay to win expensive.

500 badges is trivial for a non-casual player. For a more casual player, it’ll take a bit longer but it’s not some epic quest.

Mithril ore and elder wood logs are among the most common crafting materials in the game – salvage almost anything you get and you’ll get these.

Three skill points. Even with loads of ascended recipes, two legendaries, and stacks of superior siege the skill points come in faster than I can spend them. I’m sure most people who are level 80 would be able to manage three.

So, you can’t find ten people on your server who each have these things to make a single omega? There’s your “pay to win” overwhelming force. Not so expensive though, is it?

Omega’s are fun! Large scale Omega rushing requires servers to coordinate the effort, bringing players together. Being in IOJ and terribly outnumbered for weeks and weeks in a row, having an omega can be the only way to get PPT when you don’t have a huge blob. Come on, keep some fun in WvW. No Omega nerf!

Catleana [One] IOJ

Deli.1302:

For ac’s you build them behind obstacles where it cannot be targeted. It’s really not my problem if you don’t know the spots.

And I’m sorry that you don’t know how to kill them with an omega.

cathistar.5482:

Omega’s are fun! Large scale Omega rushing requires servers to coordinate the effort, bringing players together. Being in IOJ and terribly outnumbered for weeks and weeks in a row, having an omega can be the only way to get PPT when you don’t have a huge blob. Come on, keep some fun in WvW. No Omega nerf!

Catleana [One] IOJ

I’m not in your match up but I would bet that omegas also cause a couple of your defenders to lose all hope. It sure is a nice event to have a golem rush, but omega rushes are horrible for everyone because there is no hard counter to them.

Gudradain.3892:

Deli.1302:

For ac’s you build them behind obstacles where it cannot be targeted. It’s really not my problem if you don’t know the spots.

And I’m sorry that you don’t know how to kill them with an omega.

Clearly he does know. What he was pointing out, is how you don’t know how to limit or prevent it from occurring to a point that you can defeat your opponent.

The problem to me, appears to be that you expect a “no effort, hard counter”. Which is fine, you can prefer that if you like. I on the other hand prefer that organization and skill win out over hard counters designed to support unorganized and unskilled play.

Gudradain.3892:

cathistar.5482:

Omega’s are fun! Large scale Omega rushing requires servers to coordinate the effort, bringing players together. Being in IOJ and terribly outnumbered for weeks and weeks in a row, having an omega can be the only way to get PPT when you don’t have a huge blob. Come on, keep some fun in WvW. No Omega nerf!

Catleana [One] IOJ

I’m not in your match up but I would bet that omegas also cause a couple of your defenders to lose all hope. It sure is a nice event to have a golem rush, but omega rushes are horrible for everyone because there is no hard counter to them.

Just because you cannot counter them, does not mean there is no hard counter. Just because you, personally, feel they are horrible, doesn’t mean a majority feel that way. Perhaps you would serve the conversation better, if you kept your opinion for yourself, instead of disingenuously suggesting that you speak for “everyone”. When you resort to disingenuous claims of representation, instead of facts, for your argument, you lose credibility quickly.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Stuff…

Indeed it is my opinion. Did I stated otherwise? Do I need to write down before each post that it is my opinion? No…

Still it remains

How do you counter an omega rushes when the enemy outnumber you 3 to 1 or worse?

I have yet to see any post that explain how do deal with them. Sure there are video around of skill groups or smart defenders wiping 30 pugs + omegas with only 15, but the omegas don’t even matter in that equation. The keep could have had no door/wall and those 30 players would still have wipe to the 15 players.

When you take 2 groups that have the same skill level, the group that has the more player will win. Could we agree on that?

This is probably one of the reasons why Anet put walls, gates and sieges in this game. To give a chance to outnumbered players to be able to hold objectives by using smart siege placement. Can we still agree?

Then you have pretty much every siege that can be used to attack an objectives that can be countered by other sieges before the wall/gate go down if you do it right. Working as intended if you ask me.

And finally you have the omega… No matter what you do, when the enemy have the same skill level as you and outnumber you 3 to 1, your keep gates will go down before you can kill the omegas. Even if you prebuilt ton of sieges. The gate will go down and then you might be able to fight it out in the lord room.

It’s horrible. It’s nearly impossible to kill the omegas before they take down your gate/wall when they are protected by a smart zerg outnumbering you.

Yes it is my opinion and feel free to prove me wrong but since I have participated in 100s of successful omegas rushes and effectively countered 100s of omegas rushes, I’m very curious what you could show me.

Defending against outnumbered odds has nothing to do with dealing with golems, it has to do with manpower.

How do you defend against golems when you have 3 times as many fighters as your opponent?

Lets make this about the golems, not the manpower.

And yes, you used statements of fact. Perhaps your not understanding what definitive statements are.

Not to mention, you claimed to speak for “everyone”.

Rimmy.9217:

Which you are supposed to protect with your ACs, before the golems get there. If the golems are within range to hit the ACs, they’re close enough to get hit by the mortars.

Golems can double dodge roll and pop a anti-ranged shield till they are under the arc of treb/mortar, that is if they are not simply being portaled in.
If golems are in range to hit AC’s they are under the high arc of the mortar and cannot be hit, and can hit the AC and mortar at the same time.

Rimmy.9217:

Works on omega drivers who are trying to stay spread out from each other but still within range of the gate. Their range is already known, and dropping large aoe blasts will hit something. Their ground crew if not the golems themselves.

Taking a few pot shots at stuff while they melt the gate down doesn’t really help much….

Rimmy.9217:

You missed the “while your people are attacking/suiciding on the golems/zerg” part?

Suiciding into 50 people + 15 golems only works when counterblobbing, otherwise its just feeding bags.

Anyways saying you have to suicide and respawn on the other side of the map just to weaken their OP siege should prove that it is OP.

Rimmy.9217:

500 badges is trivial for a non-casual player. For a more casual player, it’ll take a bit longer but it’s not some epic quest.

If it was trivial they wouldn’t cost 2.5 – 3 gold per golem.

Gudradain.3892:

How do you counter an omega rushes when the enemy outnumber you 3 to 1 or worse?

What does 1v3 or 3v1 have to do with anything? This is about thread about siege, not balance of players online between competitive servers. Stop changing the subject please.

Gudradain.3892:

I have yet to see any post that explain how do deal with them. Sure there are video around of skill groups or smart defenders wiping 30 pugs + omegas with only 15, but the omegas don’t even matter in that equation. The keep could have had no door/wall and those 30 players would still have wipe to the 15 players.

You explained it yourself. I bolded the simple explanation that folks keep posting, that you say no one explained. Glad to see you agree.

And your right, omegas do not mater in that scenario because skill and smart defending trump out. This is exactly the reasoning everyone has tried to explain, as to why golems are fine.

This is precisely what we have been trying to tell you. I am glad we were able to come to an agreement. Thank you my friend.

Make ballistas 3 skill take 25-50% of the omega’s health makes Ballistas have more of a use and a solid counter to omega’s

dancingmonkey.4902:

Gudradain.3892:

How do you counter an omega rushes when the enemy outnumber you 3 to 1 or worse?

What does 1v3 or 3v1 have to do with anything? This is about thread about siege, not balance of players online between competitive servers. Stop changing the subject please.

Gudradain.3892:

I have yet to see any post that explain how do deal with them. Sure there are video around of skill groups or smart defenders wiping 30 pugs + omegas with only 15, but the omegas don’t even matter in that equation. The keep could have had no door/wall and those 30 players would still have wipe to the 15 players.

You explained it yourself. I bolded the simple explanation that folks keep posting, that you say no one explained. Glad to see you agree.

And your right, omegas do not mater in that scenario because skill and smart defending trump out. This is exactly the reasoning everyone has tried to explain, as to why golems are fine.

This is precisely what we have been trying to tell you. I am glad we were able to come to an agreement. Thank you my friend.

Did you forget to read or you are doing it on purpose?

I did start by saying that skilled players and smart defenders will be able to stop an Omega rush if they have roughly the same size or the enemy is very bad. THEN, I continued saying that if the enemy group doing the omega rush is as skilled ans as smart as you, and also outnumber you, then the omega rushes will be a pure PvDooring experience.

And the only requirement to get it rolling is to spend a couple of gold or badge of honor.

Omega are a problem and we do not agree.

coglin.1867:

Defending against outnumbered odds has nothing to do with dealing with golems, it has to do with manpower.

In fact, it has everything to do with golems.

Let’s look at 2 scenario that start the same way :

You take one of your keep and spend 10s of gold to upgrade it and siege every gates/walls to counter every possible attacks you are able to imagine. Your keep is now fully upgraded/sieged and you are ready to receive the enemy zerg. You know the enemies will hit at dawn, when most of your troops are asleep leaving you with only a few defenders. This is why you spent all day making sure your defense were ready to receive them. And then they come, greatly outnumbering you…

Scenario 1

The enemy come at you with flame rams, catapults and trebuchets. But since you prepared a nice defense, you are able to counter their attacks one after another. Still, your keep is taking damage slowly. They were able to take most of your siege down with their own and your supply is running low. Slowly and surely, they are getting inside your keep that you want it or not, but you will not give up without a fight.

After many successive attacks from your enemies, the keep is finally taken… Still it has been an awesome fights where you called in every reinforcement you could find, where you made suicidal run on enemy trebuchets to delay them, where you ran supply from a far distant camp just to be able to build some counter siege at last minute and where a kitten ton of awesome fights happened.

All in all, it was a pretty nice experience.

Scenario 2

The enemy charge in with a couple of Omegas. You don’t even have time to wake up your fellow defenders that are currently dreaming about guild missions that the keep is already taken.

Not much happen. They appeared, PvDoored the gate, walked in lord room and took it. It wasn’t much of fight, certainly not a challenge in any way and hardly interesting for anyone.

So, which one are you? #1 or #2?

The time it takes to take it and the fact that there is no hard counter unlike every other siege is what make it a problem.

If you are from Arena Net and happen to read it (which I really doubt), I have one thing to say :

Bring back WvW!