Guild Wars 2

Hi, i know there is a thread for this already:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Shout-Warrior-vs-Shout-Guardian

but this guy uses too complex calculations. I am doing the same with simple math and the result i get is different.

This is the build i m playing with my guardian:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQJARWlsApVo1CxZI8DNRCRl9M8fBI2fQIkCXFAA-TVCDABPcEAkS5HYKBB4CA4o6PZcIAaa/hpfAAypLIAACwNvZ28mBG6QH6QH6Q772co3coDtUA9oMC-w

and this is the build that shout warriors play on my guild:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNBiYDbkpjKP78wME6QDkFUoH8AoAU9Dp/gTIEA-TlSBwAGV+hT9nDXAgGm/Sp7h6+DSUCu4IBo5gAA4BAQGglxA-w

So lets say within 1 min a guardian can cure:

4 conditions with stand your ground
4 conditions with hold the line
6 conditions with purging flames
6 conditions with virtue of resolve (its 42 secs cooldown but you have Renewed Focus as well)

That’s 20 condis per minute.

A warrior on the other hand can cure:

3 conditions with for great justice
6 conditions with shake it off

9 total per minute.

Even if you used Fear Me which you can’t because warriors lack stability a lot and Shrug it Off from traits (which again you can’t because you need Quick Breathing or Empower Allies) you still only get 3 more condis removed per minute. That’s 12 in total.

Now, average damage on both builds is around 1k. BUT if you could change your warrior into a dps warrior (providing almost nothing to the group except For Great Justice) you could easily reach your average damage to 1.5k.

So, lets say you are in a guild raid and as usual, the leader requests for 10 guardians and 5 warriors (all shouters). You get:
10(guardians) x 20(conditions removed per minute) = 200 condi rem per min
5(warriors) x 9 (conditions removed per minute) = 45 condi rem per min
Total: 245 condis removed per min
Average damage: 1k.

but if you could change the distribution and had 12 guardians and 3 DPS warriors you would get:

12(guardians) x 20(condis per min) = 240 condis per min
Average damage: [12(guardians) x 1k(average damage each) + 3(warriors) x 1.5k(average damage each)] / 15 = 1100

You can see that the condi removal is the same but you get to increase the average damage of the group by 10%.

So (finally) my question is this:

Why do ppl get obsessed with Shout Warriors and how needed they are in WvW? They will never offer more than a guardian (keep in mind that a guardian also provides your group with useful boons like stability and protection, along with the condi removal) and you are basically turning one of the best professions for dps (warriors) into bad condi removal puppets.

Sorry for the long post. It’s just that i am tired of ppl suggesting the same build over and over again. PTV gear with trooper runes. It’s op for guardians, i know but warriors? Really?

You kinda missed to account for the condi removal (condi→boons actually) from warhorns on that warrior build, didnt you?

Wanze.8410:

You kinda missed to account for the condi removal (condi->boons actually) from warhorns on that warrior build, didnt you?

Quick Breathing only applies to yourself. I am counting condi removal on the group (5 allies targeted) only. + you would get that with a dps warrior as well.

Vermillion.4061:

Those stats are so painful… Trooper runes really? lmao

Support builds tend to cripple your dps. And i am fine with that as long as i play with my guardian. But warriors are supposed to be doing most of the damage there. Why on earth would you cripple their dps as well for a minimum condi removal?? That is what i can’t understand. If any guild leader/member can grant me insight on that i would be very happy.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

Wanze.8410:

You kinda missed to account for the condi removal (condi->boons actually) from warhorns on that warrior build, didnt you?

Quick Breathing only applies to yourself. I am counting condi removal on the group (5 allies targeted) only. + you would get that with a dps warrior as well.

Are you sure that quick breathing only applies to yourself as warhorn skills are AoE?

Anyways, even if you are right, Charge still removes immo/chill/cripple for up to 10 allies. So thats an additional (situational) condi removal of up to 120 every 50 seconds (considering cast time).

Nut sure, if a DPS warrior should equip a warhorn.

Quick Breathing will convert conditions on anyone affected by the WH skill as well as the user. Try it yourself.

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Wanze.8410:

Anyways, even if you are right, Charge still removes immo/chill/cripple for up to 10 allies.

Nut sure, if a DPS warrior should equip a warhorn.

Here is a DPS warrior one of my friends is playing :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJIQNBiYDbkojKPLDxLEORD8DUov9WIHMFAqnjwoMA-TVDBABlfEAUUHQXKdMWTQlqEcmSQsUGBwFAoYNCFt/ADHEgMV3JgHAQAAEgbezsZADdoDdoDdoddhezhezhWKg8UGB-w

He is getting some very nice numbers and managing to survive for as long as most of the guild members do.

But even if you go for gs/hammer (for higher mobility than sword/warhorn and therefore better survivability), you can’t expect Charge to cure all three Crippled, Immobilized, Chilled from ALL 10 players. Most of the times you are using it to cure simple conditions on you, not taking into account other player’s condi status. So it’s a very small overall condi removal to take into account. I think that IF you played with no warhorn, the ability you would miss most (for the group) would be Call to Arms, for blasting water fields and therefore healing yourself and your group. And this is why i would not suggest even for a dps warrior to play without a warhorn.

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Pls explain “secure kill with flurry”. I am not suggesting not to use warriors at all. I am just saying to use them more offensively. Keep the warhorn, keep the 4 points on Tactics to secure Quick Breathing, keep For Great Justice to give might+fury. But hell, trooper runes and shake it off? That’s crippling your dps for very little payoff.

Off hand axe > warhorn, because warhorn doesn’t tag kitten in EotM.

Hamster.4861:

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

and are those stats with trooper runes? That’s the point of this thread. Also, 2900 power is fully buffed. I am talking about base damage with no bloodlust and no Guard Stacks.

Why would you want a shout warrior in WvW raids? isn’t it better to have Hammer tanks? Where Endure Pain and Balanced Stance are a must, no room for shouts. Multiple and well-timed Ele Water Staff Cleansing Rain is more than enough to cleanse an entire group of condi’s and the occasional Purging Flames from Guard’s.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Pls explain “secure kill with flurry”. I am not suggesting not to use warriors at all. I am just saying to use them more offensively. Keep the warhorn, keep the 4 points on Tactics to secure Quick Breathing, keep For Great Justice to give might+fury. But hell, trooper runes and shake it off? That’s crippling your dps for very little payoff.

Flurry imobilizes and aoe damages, so its a kind of secure kill when the target can’t run aways from the group.

And most WvW players I play with make sure to get all their stacks before engaging in any skirmishes, isn’t that basic? so shouldn’t it be basic to include those stats in your calculations? Unless you roll with a group that doesn’t care for stacks and doesn’t want to maximize their chances of coming out on top of skirmishes.

Are you really playing your Guard with this build and this set of gear?
And you enjoy it?

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Only 2900 armor with 30% crit? What kind of gear are they running? Clearly power primary, but what would reduce them to only 2900 armor? Mostly valk with maybe a mix of cav? Full soldier’s would get them a lot more than 2900 armor.

ChoChoBo.6503:

Flurry imobilizes and aoe damages, so its a kind of secure kill when the target can’t run aways from the group.

And most WvW players I play with make sure to get all their stacks before engaging in any skirmishes, isn’t that basic? so shouldn’t it be basic to include those stats in your calculations? Unless you roll with a group that doesn’t care for stacks and doesn’t want to maximize their chances of coming out on top of skirmishes.

Regarding flurry, i always though warriors would use the hammer burst like 99% of the time. What i was asking is if there was some advanced using of flurry or something. Because isn’t a 2 sec stun always better than a 4 sec immobilize???

Regarding stacks, yeah, they help a lot, yeah, ppl should focus on getting them if some downed player or some veterans are around, but when you are in a guild raid you are always running for something. Running to save a tower, running to help some other guild, running to counter attack your opponent’s corner… Most of the times there is no time for stacks. So you can’t rely on always having them.

But this is out of topic. I am interested in knowing if any other guilds are running with Shout warriors and if so with what analogy to the guardians of the group.

Avit.3165:

Are you really playing your Guard with this build and this set of gear?
And you enjoy it?

Yes and yes. Support means you need to survive for as long as you can in order to provide for your group. If you die then the party collapses. I sometimes switch to a more offensive build though and i do find it more amusing.

But again, WE ARE OUT OF TOPIC.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Flurry imobilizes and aoe damages, so its a kind of secure kill when the target can’t run aways from the group.

And most WvW players I play with make sure to get all their stacks before engaging in any skirmishes, isn’t that basic? so shouldn’t it be basic to include those stats in your calculations? Unless you roll with a group that doesn’t care for stacks and doesn’t want to maximize their chances of coming out on top of skirmishes.

Regarding flurry, i always though warriors would use the hammer burst like 99% of the time. What i was asking is if there was some advanced using of flurry or something. Because isn’t a 2 sec stun always better than a 4 sec immobilize???

Regarding stacks, yeah, they help a lot, yeah, ppl should focus on getting them if some downed player or some veterans are around, but when you are in a guild raid you are always running for something. Running to save a tower, running to help some other guild, running to counter attack your opponent’s corner… Most of the times there is no time for stacks. So you can’t rely on always having them.

But this is out of topic. I am interested in knowing if any other guilds are running with Shout warriors and if so with what analogy to the guardians of the group.

One of the primary techniques with using Flurry is to cancel it so you don’t get rooted as well. If the warrior is running shouts (likely) and they’ve traited Inspiring Shouts, they can easily swap to hammer quickly with at least 1.5 bars of adrenaline and launch into burst immediately. Pretty common stuff.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

But this is out of topic. I am interested in knowing if any other guilds are running with Shout warriors and if so with what analogy to the guardians of the group.

You mean apart from the massive condi removal traited warhorns give you?

If you remove soft cc constantly, the other aoe condi removals from whatever source can focus on the damaging condis before they stack up.

Wanze.8410:

You mean apart from the massive condi removal traited warhorns give you?

If you remove soft cc constantly, the other aoe condi removals from whatever source can focus on the damaging condis before they stack up.

True but i am not against WH. I am against PTV gear, trooper runes and Shake it off. Because if you use a different set of runes you can instantly get a nice bonus to Power along with some other offensive stat possibly and if you use Endure Pain you can also switch to some more offensive trinkets/armor (since you will have better survivability), therefore increasing your average damage a lot.

What’s wrong with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNBiYDbkpjKPLDxLE6QDsFUo/7BIAUuDBeyGYEA-TFDBABdp8rPNBVq+zZKBB4CA4xRAoFNC5pDghDGQP7PonGiAeAABAQAu5NzmBM0hO0hO0h21t5Qv5QvZpAYSZE-w

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Only 2900 armor with 30% crit? What kind of gear are they running? Clearly power primary, but what would reduce them to only 2900 armor? Mostly valk with maybe a mix of cav? Full soldier’s would get them a lot more than 2900 armor.

It’s a soldiers/zerker hybrid – No cav, no valk. 30% crit is the base – with fury up, which you have most of the time, you sit at 50% crit chance. With a guardian in your party you get thrown up to 3050 armor, so you’re able to sacrifice some of the soldiers gear for zerker.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

Wanze.8410:

You mean apart from the massive condi removal traited warhorns give you?

If you remove soft cc constantly, the other aoe condi removals from whatever source can focus on the damaging condis before they stack up.

True but i am not against WH. I am against PTV gear, trooper runes and Shake it off. Because if you use a different set of runes you can instantly get a nice bonus to Power along with some other offensive stat possibly and if you use Endure Pain you can also switch to some more offensive trinkets/armor (since you will have better survivability), therefore increasing your average damage a lot.

What’s wrong with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNBiYDbkpjKPLDxLE6QDsFUo/7BIAUuDBeyGYEA-TFDBABdp8rPNBVq+zZKBB4CA4xRAoFNC5pDghDGQP7PonGiAeAABAQAu5NzmBM0hO0hO0h21t5Qv5QvZpAYSZE-w

Your base calculations from your op are still off because you disregarded condi removal from charge and the aoe condi removal from quick breathing.

Wanze.8410:

Your base calculations from your op are still off because you disregarded condi removal from charge and the aoe condi removal from quick breathing.

True dat.

So do you think the first group (10 guards, 5 shout warriors) would run better than the second group (12 guards, 3 dps warriors with WH+quick breathing)?

Should’nt this be in the profession forum???

Widebody.5071:

Should’nt this be in the profession forum???

Uum, don’t think so. We are talking about group builds and profession distribution regarding WvW only.

Why the focus on condition removal? The extra HP a warrior has makes up for the lack of support. Properly built warriors will usually be the last to fall in any fight.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

But this is out of topic. I am interested in knowing if any other guilds are running with Shout warriors and if so with what analogy to the guardians of the group.

The only shout warriors I know of in WvW are commanders/group leaders. I don’t know why though. They tend to be in the middle of things, putting their tag where they want the group to hit. So it makes some since to run shouts, for themselves rather than as a support for the group. Probably to maximize their chances of surviving a skirmish, really sucks when your leading and you get stun/immobilized and can’t effectively lead the group.

I don’t usually see random militia warriors run shouts, rather its best to divide parties with at least 1 guard in them that can provide the support.

(lols, me trying to stay on topic, hope that gives you some insight)

Wanderer.3248:

Why the focus on condition removal? The extra HP a warrior has makes up for the lack of support. Properly built warriors will usually be the last to fall in any fight.

Its not about who will still stand when everyone else is dead. This is guild raids we are talking about. The point is all the players in the group to be able to survive pretty much the same time, while having major condi removal but decent dps as well.

Problem is that decent dps with a Shout Warrior is not an option.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Only 2900 armor with 30% crit? What kind of gear are they running? Clearly power primary, but what would reduce them to only 2900 armor? Mostly valk with maybe a mix of cav? Full soldier’s would get them a lot more than 2900 armor.

I thought 2900 armor wit 2900 power was very impressive. Its easy to get one or the other over 3k, but for both of them to get that high, doesn’t that make them really balanced? I thought the meta for warriors in groups was going towards balanced stats versus Zerky/Glass or Tanks? I’ll be honest my war sits at 2700power and 2900armor, but its crit chance is 44%, I’d like 2900power and 30% crit chance to what I have now. Since fury can boost u to 50% easily.

ChoChoBo.6503:

(lols, me trying to stay on topic, hope that gives you some insight)

Yeah it does man and thx for all the replies so far.

ChoChoBo.6503:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Hamster.4861:

Guardians keep everyone alive and moving with protection and stability -
warriors keep everyone alive and moving by clearing soft CC like chill, cripple immobilize, condition conversion, as well as securing kills with flurry.

they are just different.

A melee train that can’t lock down enemies with warriors is a dead or a useless melee train.

also – in CORE, our ascended warriors run 2900 power and 2900 armor with 30% crit, not sure we’re going to loose much DPS…..

Only 2900 armor with 30% crit? What kind of gear are they running? Clearly power primary, but what would reduce them to only 2900 armor? Mostly valk with maybe a mix of cav? Full soldier’s would get them a lot more than 2900 armor.

I thought 2900 armor wit 2900 power was very impressive. Its easy to get one or the other over 3k, but for both of them to get that high, doesn’t that make them really balanced? I thought the meta for warriors in groups was going towards balanced stats versus Zerky/Glass or Tanks? I’ll be honest my war sits at 2700power and 2900armor, but its crit chance is 44%, I’d like 2900power and 30% crit chance to what I have now. Since fury can boost u to 50% easily.

My war sits at 2.6k power and 3.2k armor, with a base crit of 62%. He’s mostly used for roaming (burst mastery) and small group fights but is still pretty effective in zergs when retraited properly. Pretty happy with the balance, to be honest.

One thing, if you are using guard shouts for condi cleanses, you are doing it wrong. Thats why alot of guilds now run hoelbrak runes instead of trooper

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

Wanze.8410:

Your base calculations from your op are still off because you disregarded condi removal from charge and the aoe condi removal from quick breathing.

True dat.

So do you think the first group (10 guards, 5 shout warriors) would run better than the second group (12 guards, 3 dps warriors with WH+quick breathing)?

If i run a warrior in a guild set up, i would either build him defensively/support or offensive, no hybrids like WH-dps warriors. I agree though that 5 shout heal warriors with warhorn traited might be a bit much though for a 20 man guild group because of the huge range (1200) and 10 target aoe cap of Charge. So just like you suggested, i would propably run less warriors, but not because guard has superior condi cleansing but because warrior condi cleanse is OP. And if I run with less warriors, i wouldnt substitute them with guards.

Your doing it wrong if ur using guards for shout cleanse…guards and war does good damage, my guard hits 6-7k mighty blows on backlines all the time and has 3k armor 18k base health.

The OP is neglecting the fact that guilds run hoelbrak -20% condi, -40% condi food, that’s 60%, have good purging rotations and its -93% condi duration, essentially making most condis tick once, shout cleanse guards are useless in guild raids as I almost never feel condi pressure with the guild

Soft CC is the most important CC you need to prevent and Warrior warhorn/guardian purging flames usually provide enough removal, along with eles, and with -condi duration food. The warriors main role in a train are to lock down the enemy melee with flurry, keep the train moving with warhorn cleanses, and of course banners. Hammer Stuns are hard to get off with good stab rotations so it’s not as good as the sword so running axe isn’t optimal over the sword.

A dps war is completely different playstyle and purpose and shouldn’t be mixed into a hybrid with the melee train warrior or you’re just gimping the build overall.

I wouldn’t run Trooper runes on guard btw.

Wanze.8410:

If i run a warrior in a guild set up, i would either build him defensively/support or offensive, no hybrids like WH-dps warriors. I agree though that 5 shout heal warriors with warhorn traited might be a bit much though for a 20 man guild group because of the huge range (1200) and 10 target aoe cap of Charge. So just like you suggested, i would propably run less warriors, but not because guard has superior condi cleansing but because warrior condi cleanse is OP. And if I run with less warriors, i wouldnt substitute them with guards.

Thx a lot. That’s exactly the kind of insight i was looking for. Btw, the group with 10 guards and 5 warriors would be around 25-30 ppl. Basically, 2 guards, 1 warrior, 1 necro and 1 ele for each party with a room for 2 mesmers and a thief (for scouting) in total. If we would run with a 20 man group then perhaps 8 guards, 4 warriors, 4 necros, 3 eles and a mesmer would be enough.

DtC.4806:

The OP is neglecting the fact that guilds run hoelbrak -20% condi, -40% condi food, that’s 60%, have good purging rotations and its -93% condi duration, essentially making most condis tick once, shout cleanse guards are useless in guild raids as I almost never feel condi pressure with the guild

L Step.8659:

Soft CC is the most important CC you need to prevent and Warrior warhorn/guardian purging flames usually provide enough removal, along with eles, and with -condi duration food. The warriors main role in a train are to lock down the enemy melee with flurry, keep the train moving with warhorn cleanses, and of course banners. Hammer Stuns are hard to get off with good stab rotations so it’s not as good as the sword so running axe isn’t optimal over the sword.

A dps war is completely different playstyle and purpose and shouldn’t be mixed into a hybrid with the melee train warrior or you’re just gimping the build overall.

I wouldn’t run Trooper runes on guard btw.

Yeah i think i get it now. You are all basically saying that with Hoelbrak/Melandru runes and Lemongrass you don’t need more condi cleansing than what Purging Flames +WH already provide so there is no need for trooper runes and Shout Builds, therefore increasing the damage output of the group with pretty much the same survivability.

Thx guys. You ’ve been really helpful.

ComeAndGetThem.3152:

DtC.4806:

The OP is neglecting the fact that guilds run hoelbrak -20% condi, -40% condi food, that’s 60%, have good purging rotations and its -93% condi duration, essentially making most condis tick once, shout cleanse guards are useless in guild raids as I almost never feel condi pressure with the guild

L Step.8659:

Soft CC is the most important CC you need to prevent and Warrior warhorn/guardian purging flames usually provide enough removal, along with eles, and with -condi duration food. The warriors main role in a train are to lock down the enemy melee with flurry, keep the train moving with warhorn cleanses, and of course banners. Hammer Stuns are hard to get off with good stab rotations so it’s not as good as the sword so running axe isn’t optimal over the sword.

A dps war is completely different playstyle and purpose and shouldn’t be mixed into a hybrid with the melee train warrior or you’re just gimping the build overall.

I wouldn’t run Trooper runes on guard btw.

Yeah i think i get it now. You are all basically saying that with Hoelbrak/Melandru runes and Lemongrass you don’t need more condi cleansing than what Purging Flames +WH already provide so there is no need for trooper runes and Shout Builds, therefore increasing the damage output of the group with pretty much the same survivability.

Thx guys. You ’ve been really helpful.

The only time I would every suggest melandru to a player anymore is if they were brand new to the game/wvw. In an organized group the Meta is generally Hoelbrak Frontline and Strength Backline rune wise.

As said above, Soft CC is your most dangerous thing as it can spread a group out horribly or lock you down for a half second and thats all thats needed to gain an advantage and warriors WH excels at cleansing those things. Guardian is mainly used for might uptime between the trait empowering might and empower with their stability. and like DtC said, guardians can hit quite hard. Them mighty blow trains hurt mang.

This thread. Our guild use super lame tactics and spec, our guild use even more lame tactics and specs.

Shout ranger! 16 char

Junkpile.7439:

This thread. Our guild use super lame tactics and spec, our guild use even more lame tactics and specs.

Says the EotM Hero….