Guild Wars 2

Nearing half a year of this nonsense now, every guild runs hammer train. Even we have to start using them to counter hammer trains since we can’t use any light or medium classes against them unless we have more numbers.

(anyone who claims otherwise is welcome to prove me wrong with a proper GvG video where a hammer train is beaten by a non hammer train)

I’m really reaching my limit when it comes to patience for balance patches and I started wondering if I just should buy ESO even though I disliked the combat greatly in it.

How long was the last balance patch ago? Half a year now? This is beyond ridiculous.

It’s time to nerf the hammer train and buff other classes into viable WvW roles.

#neededtovent
#wtbrealskillinsteadofwarriorautoattackspam

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Here you go INC GvG whit almost full range:

@OP:

Protip: dodge. I rarely ever die to a hammer train.

someone hasnt seen a guild running with 6-7 full zerker Eles all dropping meteor shower at once.

only baddies complain about hammer trains.

its all about glass eles/necros, hammer trains are only a distraction, you can generally tell the bigger/tankier the hammer train the worse the guilds/players are

Calling it a “hammer train” is misleading since there is a lot more to it than earthshakers and mighty blows.

Xuro.5861:

Nearing half a year of this nonsense now, every guild runs hammer train. Even we have to start using them to counter hammer trains since we can’t use any light or medium classes against them unless we have more numbers.

(anyone who claims otherwise is welcome to prove me wrong with a proper GvG video where a hammer train is beaten by a non hammer train)

I’m really reaching my limit when it comes to patience for balance patches and I started wondering if I just should buy ESO even though I disliked the combat greatly in it.

How long was the last balance patch ago? Half a year now? This is beyond ridiculous.

It’s time to nerf the hammer train and buff other classes into viable WvW roles.

#neededtovent
#wtbrealskillinsteadofwarriorautoattackspam

ummm [VR] from maguuma is probably one of the only guilds that doesn’t run a hammer train in raids or gvg and we do very well i think. yes i think that comp doesn’t run so well in gvg but its different and alot more fun

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

style.6173:

@OP:

Protip: dodge. I rarely ever die to a hammer train.

You can only dodge so much and it’s not always possible to see what’s going on when the enemies are in a graphical blob.

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

Valid point in a game where every class has equal access to stability, which isn’t this game.
The fact that Heavies fart stability only exacerbates the problem.

What fapppz said. Hammer train is low risk average reward. Ranged /balanced groups are more challenging and rewarding

Once you know what to expect from a guild you can think of how to counter them. The first range zerg I run into melted my old guilds hammer train. Mesmer/necro remove stability, elementalist/theif cc and so much AE. Hammer trains are pug friendly, while range zergs are not. Kiting around a hammer only works when everyone is on voice comms. The problem with range zerg is few pugs stick on the commander. So only gulds can run a range type zerg.

Go to T8. Definitely no hammer trains there

Follow this instructional video on how to deal with hammer trains. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgyk71VRoUE

Reliance on CC’s open up other options. Goad the hammer train in close, have them use their stuns then juke back and resume playing range :]

I would make a video with my all thief guild, but I dont really want to. All you have to do is dodge. Hammer trains are fundamentally flawed, as they rely on a couple of certain skills which have long cast times. The true stun lock class is thief. Off hand pistol spam 4

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

Chris.3290:

Follow this instructional video on how to deal with hammer trains. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgyk71VRoUE

I laughed.

style.6173:

@OP:

Protip: dodge. I rarely ever die to a hammer train.

Most people don’t die directly to the Hammer-Train. They die to the AoE that is dropped on top of it. CC, not damage is what makes the Hammer-Train so powerful.

It’s not the hammer trains that are deadly, it’s just that most of the compositions have the hammer train as a core component. It’s the combination of hard hitting backlines AND tanky frontlines that are deadly.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I know not of this stability he speaks of either.

~Thieves

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I know not of this stability he speaks of either.

~Thieves

Hi! My name is Dodge. Pleased to meet you! Have you met my friend Positioning?

Well, to me it sounds like one of a few things…
your frontline needs to be coordinated (if you are melee)
if you are ranged, you need to position yourself better, bad positioning will equal death… Even if you are melee. Also, hammer trains are very avoidable, just need to open your eyes and look for them.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I sense that you have no clue how to position yourself. The only thing you should be getting pressured by is the enemy’s backline. Move out of the way when you see that kitten coming and there you go.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I know not of this stability he speaks of either.

~Thieves

Why is a thief anywhere near the enemy’s frontline is what i want to know. Also you have shadowstep – a dual stun break that removes condis if you slip up and get hit by a hammer train.

It’s easy to beat hammer trains. Focus your DPS, spread out, and use both dodges and mobility as soon as you feel the slightest pressure.

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

True. It’s the sheer tankiness of the hammer train combined with bombs from the back line that make it powerful. If maneuvered around it however, the backline should be the first to go then take care of the tanks :]

Annoying by design but not unbeatable.

Soothing Images, Ward Against Melee, revert blindness to GW1 style.
Problem solved.

Yet it’s rarely the melee train that is dealing the bulk of the damage. That job is usually the responsibility of the necromancers and elementalists.

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

apart from you not knowing the buff: stability you do make a valid point that immobilize should be added to the immunity to CC list

edit what is this stabilty
~mesmer

I love how people are complaining about tanky support builds being tanky, and supportive.

Really, it is hilarious.

You people complaining have no clue.

WOW! is really glad to see too many pro players helping newbies. Dodge, positioning, stability, that is great. They forgot that mechanics since the lvl1 tutorial!

Now the game seems balanced! : ) Nothing to fear a 20+ hammer warriors spamming CC without almost CD!

And, by the way, i have a hammer warrior, because is kittening overpower in zerg play.

Reverence.6915:

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

meh, want anti hammer train? bring some rangers with muddy terrain and entangle and a bunch of soft CC. Watch them stand there helplessly eating whatever your zerg can dish out.

Prysin.8542:

Reverence.6915:

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

meh, want anti hammer train? bring some rangers with muddy terrain and entangle and a bunch of soft CC. Watch them stand there helplessly eating whatever your zerg can dish out.

Runes of Melandru + Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup + Dogged March

And if you want, horn traited.

Easily the core of any zerg hammer warrior.

urieldhynne.2743:

Prysin.8542:

Reverence.6915:

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

meh, want anti hammer train? bring some rangers with muddy terrain and entangle and a bunch of soft CC. Watch them stand there helplessly eating whatever your zerg can dish out.

Runes of Melandru + Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup + Dogged March

And if you want, horn traited.

Easily the core of any zerg hammer warrior.

yes that reduced the immob duration to about 1 second. However this is important and some people fail to understand this concept; Chaining skills counters the counter.

So say you got 5 rangers;
Each has Entangle + Krytan Drakehound + Muddy Terrain. 3 AOE immob sources. Each capped at 5 (MT was fixed in december/november and buffed from 3 to 5) players.

So ranger one fires off the pet, who knows if it goes off but we assume it does, for once. The dog pet can also provide cripple if traited for it.
Then applies muddy terrain. This also applies 10x cripple pulses, each delivering 4-6 seconds cripple, so even if you DO manage to “ignore” immob, you will still be slowed.
Then ranger one fires off Entangle.
Ranger one is now on full CD, Ranger two starts using the same rotation untill he/she is on full CD, then ranger 3,4,5 follows this pattern.

Regardless of how much -condi duration you got, regardless of dogged march, melandru or mobile strikes, your frontline will still be bogged down by anywhere between 12-70 seconds of immob.

It does not take much skill to pull this maneuver off, it only takes a single commander with an IQ above a single digit and 5 players willing to listen. Neither of which is that rare of an commodity in WvW.

EDIT; by now someone will argue that the enemy team will just use some condi cleanses… yes they will, however if you chain skills, those cleanses will be spent on the first or second wave, resulting in a immob time between 12-70 seconds. Guardians will die very quickly as they have few ways to reduce immob duration, unlike warriors, so they end up dieing fast. Once the guards die, the warriors stability uptime suffers greatly, and thus they get stunlocked/dazed to death. Seen it repeat itself so many times its not even funny. Guards gone, warriors get trapped in static fields and eat 30k damage from meteor showers and necro marks in less then 3 seconds. Then the backline was destroyed.

Another thing about rangers is that they can easily go toe to toe with warriors in melee, yet effortlessly switch to ranged kiting when called for. This ability to swap between the two makes them even harder to deal with.

Prysin.8542:

urieldhynne.2743:

Prysin.8542:

Reverence.6915:

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

meh, want anti hammer train? bring some rangers with muddy terrain and entangle and a bunch of soft CC. Watch them stand there helplessly eating whatever your zerg can dish out.

Runes of Melandru + Bowl of Lemongrass Poultry Soup + Dogged March

And if you want, horn traited.

Easily the core of any zerg hammer warrior.

yes that reduced the immob duration to about 1 second. However this is important and some people fail to understand this concept; Chaining skills counters the counter.

So say you got 5 rangers;
Each has Entangle + Krytan Drakehound + Muddy Terrain. 3 AOE immob sources. Each capped at 5 (MT was fixed in december/november and buffed from 3 to 5) players.

So ranger one fires off the pet, who knows if it goes off but we assume it does, for once. The dog pet can also provide cripple if traited for it.
Then applies muddy terrain. This also applies 10x cripple pulses, each delivering 4-6 seconds cripple, so even if you DO manage to “ignore” immob, you will still be slowed.
Then ranger one fires off Entangle.
Ranger one is now on full CD, Ranger two starts using the same rotation untill he/she is on full CD, then ranger 3,4,5 follows this pattern.

Regardless of how much -condi duration you got, regardless of dogged march, melandru or mobile strikes, your frontline will still be bogged down by anywhere between 12-70 seconds of immob.

It does not take much skill to pull this maneuver off, it only takes a single commander with an IQ above a single digit and 5 players willing to listen. Neither of which is that rare of an commodity in WvW.

Is not how that works. I have my warrior with that setup and i am immune to cripples, chills and immobilizes. With the horn traited i can remove that effects from my allies.

It works, been using that rotation against warriors many many many many times.
Almost all warriors run melandru + lemongrass + dogged march these days.
It isn’t that hard, yes warriors can reduce the duration a LOT. However the lowest iv’e seen a warrior reduce my immob duration was from 7 seconds to 1.5 seconds… That is absolute max. At that point i had +40% duration and he had prolly all the -duration he could muster. even so, Signet melee build you can get +70%, dooming all warriors as their negative duration will only be -23% to my original duration which is over 2 seconds.

Yes you can get the duration down, a lot, but not enough to 100% “remove” it.

Change the topic to remove retaliation which would make a LOT more counters to hammer trains. Costs half of my life to push sword 2 on mesmer in the middle of retaliation heavies nice game design!

Retaliation is as unfun as pre-nerf confusion was in large scale fights, but people tend to not notice it because it’s a lot of smaller numbers. Keep an eye on casual damage you take when you try to range heavy trains.

Even in 15v15 GvG’s on my necro you can easily notice that for each aoe button you push you’re eating a free 1k damage, and that’s conservative. If you play the game too much you’re spending every 3rd heal on just retaliation. Don’t even try to toss a grenade in EoTM.

Pinko.2076:

Change the topic to remove retaliation which would make a LOT more counters to hammer trains. Costs half of my life to push sword 2 on mesmer in the middle of retaliation heavies nice game design!

Retaliation is as unfun as pre-nerf confusion was in large scale fights, but people tend to not notice it because it’s a lot of smaller numbers. Keep an eye on casual damage you take when you try to range heavy trains.

Even in 15v15 GvG’s on my necro you can easily notice that for each aoe button you push you’re eating a free 1k damage, and that’s conservative. If you play the game too much you’re spending every 3rd heal on just retaliation. Don’t even try to toss a grenade in EoTM.

Or Barrage + Rapid Fire on rangers…

Prysin.8542:

It works, been using that rotation against warriors many many many many times.
Almost all warriors run melandru + lemongrass + dogged march these days.
It isn’t that hard, yes warriors can reduce the duration a LOT. However the lowest iv’e seen a warrior reduce my immob duration was from 7 seconds to 1.5 seconds… That is absolute max. At that point i had +40% duration and he had prolly all the -duration he could muster. even so, Signet melee build you can get +70%, dooming all warriors as their negative duration will only be -23% to my original duration which is over 2 seconds.

Yes you can get the duration down, a lot, but not enough to 100% “remove” it.

Idk how it work, but never ever a ranger can immobilize my tanky warrior for more than 0.5 sec and that is because i use cheap food (36% condi duration)

Maybe with a lot of condi duration, so you need a full condi duration “squad” with a lot of AOE immobilization (with low CD) and pretty coordinated to stop a hammerspam unorganized zerg. And still, thats warrior can blow up your immobilization with the horn.

I have a warrior, i know how powerful and op is the hammer train and the warrior itself. I used to play with the hammer build 0.10.30.0.30 full zerker and they do a great job nerfing it. That affect me? of course, was the build i used to use. but was pretty op. Like the lowCD in one weapon AoeCC nowadays.

you dun need a lot of rangers to do it, its just a case where the more you got the more efficient it is. It all comes down to the durations that rangers have at their disposal;
Dog; 4.5 seconds Immob, 11.5 seconds cripple 16 sec CD
MT; 3,5 seconds immob, 10x 3,5 seconds cripple 20 sec CD
Entangle; 14x 1.75 immob. 120 sec CD
Bonus CC;
Alpine Wolf – 6,5 seconds Chilled, 11,5 seconds Cripple. 24 sec CD
Barrage (LB 5) 12×2.75 seconds cripple. 30 sec CD

Doesnt matter what you can reduce the durations by, that is what ONE ranger produces in AOE CC. that is a SINGLE ranger. Now multiply that by 5 and you understand how doomed you are if a party of 5 rangers really want to CC you.

Prysin.8542:

you dun need a lot of rangers to do it, its just a case where the more you got the more efficient it is. It all comes down to the durations that rangers have at their disposal;
Dog; 4.5 seconds Immob, 11.5 seconds cripple 16 sec CD
MT; 3,5 seconds immob, 10x 3,5 seconds cripple 20 sec CD
Entangle; 14x 1.75 immob. 120 sec CD
Bonus CC;
Alpine Wolf – 6,5 seconds Chilled, 11,5 seconds Cripple. 24 sec CD
Barrage (LB 5) 12×2.75 seconds cripple. 30 sec CD

Doesnt matter what you can reduce the durations by, that is what ONE ranger produces in AOE CC. that is a SINGLE ranger. Now multiply that by 5 and you understand how doomed you are if a party of 5 rangers really want to CC you.

I used to play in a organize zerg with my guild. The soft CC wasn’t a problem at all. With guardians (traited virtues) 1 or 2 for party and hammer/horn warrior… too much condition reduction, too much condition cleanse. Is more problematic the necro’s blind well if you don’t paid attention for example, you miss a lot with that because that renew every second and your dogged march don’t work on blinds. Or boons removal, if you lose your stability you can be heavily CCed by the enemy’s hammertrain.

urieldhynne.2743:

I used to play in a organize zerg with my guild. The soft CC wasn’t a problem at all. With guardians (traited virtues) 1 or 2 for party and hammer/horn warrior… too much condition reduction, too much condition cleanse. Is more problematic the necro’s blind well if you don’t paid attention for example, you miss a lot with that because that renew every second and your dogged march don’t work on blinds. Or boons removal, if you lose your stability you can be heavily CCed by the enemy’s hammertrain.

yes, in general soft CC has no use, however the way me and another friend of mine (no longer playing together) used CC, we applied immob then stacked cripple, chilled, bleeding and poison ontop so whatever removal you had wouldnt touch the immob. This is also why you CHAIN skills.
Apply first immob, wait for it to pass/get cleansed, apply second, wait a second or two for it to pass/cleansed and apply third… inbetween these applications you spam soft CC. The reason it IS effective is because it forces you to burn through your cleanses. So even IF you manage to cleanse all the CC, you are now completely exposed to the necro mark spam. It is a double edged sword; wait it out or eat necro marks and engi nades.

However, it takes discipline and organisation to pull it off efficiently. That is true, and one ranger will not make a whole lot of difference (other then snaring your guards so they die pretty fast)

Deli.1302:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Ulion.5476:

RyuDragnier.9476:

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I know not of this stability he speaks of either.

~Thieves

Hi! My name is Dodge. Pleased to meet you! Have you met my friend Positioning?

Thief: “So dodge out of the way of the melee train, and position myself in sPvP? Cause I know you arent talking about PvE.”

style.6173:

@OP:

Protip: dodge. I rarely ever die to a hammer train.

good luck dodging every second….

no really if you’re dying to a hammer train you’re bad if the discussion is about killing the hammer train then yeah retaliation is dumb