Guild Wars 2

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

LilMcGinley.3890:

KnattyDreads.1856:

Can someone smarter then I explain why a simple system of 1st goes up 3rd goes down wouldn’t work? I’m really getting a sense of over complication here…

Every week will have a T1 server playing a T2 and T3 server, no matter what.. this pattern continues all the way down the ladder. IE T2 server will be playing a T3 and T4 server..

No one in T3 will want to win because they’ll get smashed by whatever monster from T1 loses and no one in T2 will want to win because they’ll get thrown in with 2 T1 monsters.

Whats happening right now is that matchups are stale on some tiers. YB is killing it in T2 and SOS/FA are losing each week by 200k. What’s the incentive to come into that matchup at all? FA used to have Queus of 140 on EB and 50s on the BLs but not anymore. We need new blood to make things fun again.

Right now YB could hang with T1 but they have no chance because of the glicko and how T1 works their matuchup. FA is slipping and is more a T3 server. IOJ is facing GOM and SF, SF is super blobby at some times and IOJ is awol and GOM people come and go fast if all is paper and the SF blob is out KTraining again.

But the promotion/demotion system should allow servers to level out where they belong. It works in sports that way so should here. Better to be where they belong than being locked or glickoed in the same matchup.

It doesn’t work that way because everything is population based.
The players legitimately ruined any shot of a swiss style bracket system working the moment season 1 launched any many people flooded to t1/t2.

I hear what you are saying but I disagree Tex. Population is important but all I know is what I tracked for a long time. You could still transfer into FA yet it used to have Queues of 140 plus in EB on reset and 40 plus in the BLs when they were dominating T2. In order to play WvW I would go to my alt on TC. The Queues were much shorter if there were any at all. And if T1 WvW pop allowed more in it wasn’t reflected in zerg size because for a long time FA and YB were running larger zergs than TC or BG for the most part.

The only way to find balance is letting teams fight one another and use win/loss as the deciding factor, not some point system that is so convoluted no one knows what the heck is going on.

There are 8 tiers and you promote the winner, demote the loser and find a balance. You can’t use points scored for the week since some teams total points would be skewed either up or down based on the matchup from the previous week. So that’s why I say just do wins or losses.

We want fairer matchups that give servers a chance to compete. The only way to find one’s level is to see where the ceiling is and where the basement is, no?

English soccer uses this way. The bottom three teams from the Premier League are relegated to the Champions league and the top three teams from the Champions League move up. This clears out the dead wood and rewards good play. After awhile teams find their balance. They are either sent back the next year or move up the rankings to stay where their skill level is proved.

What really needs to happen is Anet has to take over their game.

Balance the population.
Balance the coverage. (No idea how they’d fix this one.)
Free transfers to lower tier servers.

And if this doesn’t work, add a map cap on servers that are overstacked.

These things alone would keep each servers glicko ratings close enough that you’d get the variation in matches that EU sees.

There has to be a way to figure how many people play per hour and for how long for a particular server based on their location. And see what totals come up.

Map cap is good but dangerous too. Don’t want to penalize active servers for the sleepy heads. How about making outnumbered deal out more damage and take less on a greater scale.

How about making Legenday defenders have greater range and not allow siege to be thrown by the other team on the path from spawn to the keep.

Get rid of the crafting booths too. Sometimes I see people sitting in there while we are losing our stuff. Aren’t there enough places in PVE to do that.

They may need to look into combining the bottom 6 servers into 3 and that should jump start things too.

Make siege usefull again. Reduce the aoe on top of walls for eles and necros. Allow less populated servers that have really dedicated people who like their server to be able to siege and protect. No one likes to sign in to EB and see everything paper. I would spend more time again in a tower while watching tv and upgrading it and sieging it out if I could hold it with fewer people. Right now no siege lasts on a wall. But this whole blob mentality of too many servers and aoes that reach the ground inside towers/keeps is too much. I just leave and won’t spend any gold or buy gems.

Simplest solution to fix stale match up?

Put a cap on the highest rating and the lowest rating a server can have.

For example, the highest could be 2000 and the lowest could be 1000.

Interesting. Gudradain. I’m a bit old school though. I don’t mind ratings but I am about wins and losses. Nothing moves someone more than the simple fact of busting butt to win because there is a reason to win.

Gudradain.3892:

Simplest solution to fix stale match up?

Put a cap on the highest rating and the lowest rating a server can have.

For example, the highest could be 2000 and the lowest could be 1000.

Would mean nothing for EU – just two servers are below 1000 and none are above 2000.

Bracket limitations would be better. Not quite one up one down, but enough so that glicko actually drops you a position when you loose a couple of times.

We can come up with all the ideas on how to fix WvW but Anet has said in the past they don’t want to punish players by lowering map cap or adjusting stats of the outmanned.

Now they will finally limit transfers, but that will take a long time to even out the players because some FULL servers are more full than others. There’s no mechanic that will motivate a player or a guild to transfer off a server that’s dominating. The only reason to leave an overstacked server are boredom, server politics, or quitting GW2.

Anet already acknowledges the snowball effect of night capping, supply and upgraded vs paper keeps and towers, but nothing’s been done other than siegerazer, and that only helps with one tower.

Jethro.8725:

Interesting. Gudradain. I’m a bit old school though. I don’t mind ratings but I am about wins and losses. Nothing moves someone more than the simple fact of busting butt to win because there is a reason to win.

There is zero incentive to win in a winner up/loser down system. If you win, you will get promoted and then lose next week. If you lose, you will get demoted and then win next week. If you come in the middle, you will likely come in the middle next week, too.

Where’s the incentive to want to win? The 3 bonus boxes containing crap greens you get for winning? I don’t think so.

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

FA has owned that tier for a long time, and YB is like in what Week 4 or so of the push for T1???

The amount of salt generated by YB is amazing…Just sit back and let the process work and see how it ends up. You can’t win every week tiger.

bob.8632:

coglin.1867:

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

FA has owned that tier for a long time, and YB is like in what Week 4 or so of the push for T1???

The amount of salt generated by YB is amazing…Just sit back and let the process work and see how it ends up. You can’t win every week tiger.

Why do you assume coglin is in tier 2? (he isn’t)

Blix.8021:

bob.8632:

coglin.1867:

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

FA has owned that tier for a long time, and YB is like in what Week 4 or so of the push for T1???

The amount of salt generated by YB is amazing…Just sit back and let the process work and see how it ends up. You can’t win every week tiger.

Why do you assume coglin is in tier 2? (he isn’t)

I was speaking in general and quoted the conversation.

+1 for your white knighting tho.

bob.8632:

Blix.8021:

bob.8632:

coglin.1867:

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

FA has owned that tier for a long time, and YB is like in what Week 4 or so of the push for T1???

The amount of salt generated by YB is amazing…Just sit back and let the process work and see how it ends up. You can’t win every week tiger.

Why do you assume coglin is in tier 2? (he isn’t)

I was speaking in general and quoted the conversation.

+1 for your white knighting tho.

I dont think you know what that phrase means

First place up, third place down, constant variety, no need for glicko, and purpose for winning the week (or losing).

It would hurt some servers but really with the way things are currently, servers get crappy match ups all the time.

Blix.8021:

bob.8632:

Blix.8021:

bob.8632:

coglin.1867:

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

FA has owned that tier for a long time, and YB is like in what Week 4 or so of the push for T1???

The amount of salt generated by YB is amazing…Just sit back and let the process work and see how it ends up. You can’t win every week tiger.

Why do you assume coglin is in tier 2? (he isn’t)

I was speaking in general and quoted the conversation.

+1 for your white knighting tho.

I dont think you know what that phrase means

Are you sure?

Blix.8021:

Jethro.8725:

Interesting. Gudradain. I’m a bit old school though. I don’t mind ratings but I am about wins and losses. Nothing moves someone more than the simple fact of busting butt to win because there is a reason to win.

There is zero incentive to win in a winner up/loser down system. If you win, you will get promoted and then lose next week. If you lose, you will get demoted and then win next week. If you come in the middle, you will likely come in the middle next week, too.

Where’s the incentive to want to win? The 3 bonus boxes containing crap greens you get for winning? I don’t think so.

Even without incentive,1 up and 1 down should move a server to a point where it is competitive now – not based on what was a month or weeks ago. A “winning server” could go up and then fall back down, but it may also take second or win again to move up yet again. The same for servers bleeding players. If they drop down fast enough to where they can be competitive and have fun, they may not totally implode….

Some places like t1/t2 and t7/t8 (U.S.) may have 2 servers swapping constantly. I don’t think this would be the case with t2/t3 and t6/t7 (and all between). Until it is attempted – maybe a 6-8 week trial “event” we can only speculate……

I believe there’s not enough interest or general population for 8 tier’s and 24 worlds anymore. Having locked Tiers of descending map population limits would generate the best the mode can be. Off the top of my head I’d guess at 5 tiers with map pop’s of 75, 60, 50, 40, and 30, for the 5 tiers. This would allow players to find the best fit and community for their play style. I’d simply unlock and have free transfers for a month to let players find their way. Then I’d have a small fee, again a SMALL fee, for transferring afterwards. Because if you want a more refreshing and variable experience, then you want to generate player movement more than whole world movement.

Side note, the WvW population is probably 1/2 to 1/3 what the Dev’s believe it to be. Because many of us have multiple accounts on multiple worlds skewing any data the Dev’s have generated.

I think 5 tiers would be a perfect number, even T5 would have quite a bit more action in WvW, making all tiers enjoyable and populated.

The multiple accounts is definately a factor that I don’t think they can do anything about. Let’s face it, ET is not a medium server in NA.

Dawdler.8521:

Gudradain.3892:

Simplest solution to fix stale match up?

Put a cap on the highest rating and the lowest rating a server can have.

For example, the highest could be 2000 and the lowest could be 1000.

Would mean nothing for EU – just two servers are below 1000 and none are above 2000.

Since when does EU have stale match up except for tier 9?

DeWolfe.2174:

I believe there’s not enough interest or general population for 8 tier’s and 24 worlds anymore. Having locked Tiers of descending map population limits would generate the best the mode can be. Off the top of my head I’d guess at 5 tiers with map pop’s of 75, 60, 50, 40, and 30, for the 5 tiers. This would allow players to find the best fit and community for their play style. I’d simply unlock and have free transfers for a month to let players find their way. Then I’d have a small fee, again a SMALL fee, for transferring afterwards. Because if you want a more refreshing and variable experience, then you want to generate player movement more than whole world movement.

Side note, the WvW population is probably 1/2 to 1/3 what the Dev’s believe it to be. Because many of us have multiple accounts on multiple worlds skewing any data the Dev’s have generated.

I think I’d go for 6 tiers so you could still have some kind of tournament system in place. Let Gold tier have map cap of 70, Silver could cap at 60 and Bronze at 50. Eliminate tiers 7 and 8 and roll them in with 5 and 6 in some way.

If the expac actually brings enough players back to tiers 7 and 8 to be meaningful I would be very surprised.

coglin.1867:

Jethro.8725:

Here is the most simple way to fix the stale matchups.

If you come in first you move up, if you come in second you stay, if you come in third you drop down. This way you will be fighting two new teams each week.

This would even apply to both T1 and T8. The top 2 servers stay in T1 and the bottom 2 servers stay in T8. Gives incentive.

Dump the stupid glicko, win move up, lose move down. Simple.

And what better way is there than to see how you could do against better talent than having to prove it. If you’re down by 8K on a Thursday night (NA time) then wouldn’t it be more fun to have to fight to stay or fight to move up? Wouldn’t more people wan to come into WvW if there was a chance to move up or at least a new matchup the next week? And how about giving the winner something silly like a few laurels or silver or some sort of token that could be traded in after enough are acquired to make it even more lucrative to want to win in WvW?

What do you think?

I think all that does is trade what you deem as a stale match up for unbalanced matchups that I feel would be boring.

I would have to agree. If variety is something unplayable, then I could care less for it. As it currently goes, the servers would have to be much closer in population but it appears that the disparity between tiers is just too great to even bother with.

I’m in T3. Having one of us move up to t2 and another to t4 will just create trash matchups for 3 tiers. What’s the point?

Anyhow, I’m all for awarding tokens or whatnot at the end of the week, but these issues are separate.

At least with win/loss you won’t see the same teams. And if you win and move up that is incentive enough to fight even harder to stay up. If you slack or can’t handle the upper tier then you drop back down. Same theory applies if you lose, you go down and either fight or give up but either way after a few mathces a level will be found that keeps things more fair and balanced.

Enough with needing a masters in Chaos Theory to figure out that SF should be higher, YB should be T1 and IOJ should be T7 or T8 right now.

All the 1000 2000 and glicko has us in this problem with blobs dominating and other servers in Fractals or Dungeons.

Win and go up, lose and go down. Sounds simple enough to me. I don’t feel like enrolling at University again to figure out the glicko. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that YB is stuck in T2 even though they have the numbers and coverage to get a taste of T1. I know it’s not skill that will get them there but at least they can go back to their roots hugging towers and keeps and siege capping everythng they own.

Why is T1 so exclusive? Every tier has had blow outs at some point so why not T1? Is that by design? It definitely seems like there’s some sort of deal or rotation system up there but enough is enough. FA was so strong for months and they should have cracked T1 for at least one week. And now YB is a juggernaut and stuck. Is the T1 lock out really good for the game or fair to those on other servers?

Jay.7546:

Win and go up, lose and go down. Sounds simple enough to me. I don’t feel like enrolling at University again to figure out the glicko. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that YB is stuck in T2 even though they have the numbers and coverage to get a taste of T1. I know it’s not skill that will get them there but at least they can go back to their roots hugging towers and keeps and siege capping everythng they own.

Why is T1 so exclusive? Every tier has had blow outs at some point so why not T1? Is that by design? It definitely seems like there’s some sort of deal or rotation system up there but enough is enough. FA was so strong for months and they should have cracked T1 for at least one week. And now YB is a juggernaut and stuck. Is the T1 lock out really good for the game or fair to those on other servers?

I don’t think ArenaNet intended it to be locked out, but I do think it is unfair because none of the servers below the top three have the feeling that they could be #1 if they pushed for it. That’s the biggest fault of this system, the inability for servers to aim for the top. The incentive is totally lost. At least a win up, lose down system would bring some of that feeling back. Using higher variance and messing with glicko in general would be total anarchy, you can already see how fidgety T5 to T8 is in NA.

I like the idea, but maybe not now cause SoS and FA have a really good chance to restructure before our ratings drops too far. Once everything in T2 has settled down I would like ArenaNet to at least try it out for awhile. They tried that terribad higher glicko variance model for awhile, and this is way better than that.

Jay.7546:

Win and go up, lose and go down. Sounds simple enough to me. I don’t feel like enrolling at University again to figure out the glicko. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that YB is stuck in T2 even though they have the numbers and coverage to get a taste of T1. I know it’s not skill that will get them there but at least they can go back to their roots hugging towers and keeps and siege capping everythng they own.

Why is T1 so exclusive? Every tier has had blow outs at some point so why not T1? Is that by design? It definitely seems like there’s some sort of deal or rotation system up there but enough is enough. FA was so strong for months and they should have cracked T1 for at least one week. And now YB is a juggernaut and stuck. Is the T1 lock out really good for the game or fair to those on other servers?

Perhaps you should enroll in University. Higher education would be good for you.

That said, this will be horrible for everybody. I do not feel match ups are stale, I enjoy the consistent rivalry. I suspect others do too. What no one will enjoy, is having one server be extremely under or over powered in a match up every other week.

By the way, what server are you on?

For those of you that don’t remember, one up one down is what season 2 became. It was the worst tournament for NA except for T1 where JQ and TC teamed up to beat BG.

Season 3 was only less bad because it was shorter.

Until the NA populations even out, there is no reason for a season 4 and I think that is why we haven’t had a season 4.

coglin.1867:

Perhaps you should enroll in University. Higher education would be good for you.

That said, this will be horrible for everybody. I do not feel match ups are stale, I enjoy the consistent rivalry. I suspect others do too. What no one will enjoy, is having one server be extremely under or over powered in a match up every other week.

By the way, what server are you on?

Are you a joker Coglin? I offer my opinion and you insult me. Classy move. I’m sure some like the comfort of knowing who they are going to battle each week. I don’t think that’s the consesus though. Have you been reading the forums? No one likes to be stuck in a bad matchup week after week. Have you noticed any SOS or FA threads where they are happy being blobbed by YB every week with no end in sight? Have you seen any YB threads saying gee thanks for the fights guys, beating you by 200K with no prosptect of moving up is great.? Nope, me either.

T1 is fixed and there is no current reward system for finishing first in any matchup so what’s the incentive? The glicko and whatever is being used has created locks in T1 and T2 and probably T3. Is that good for the game?

SF is winning by 100K in their matchup with GOM and IOJ as of tonight (Thurs). GOM is trying but really outnumberede and IOJ has tried but badly outnumbered. If GOM or IOJ see SF next week do you think anyone is gonna stay past reset or will they assume another but kicking and find other games to play or things to do after dailies?

Winning and moving up is the basis of every freakin’ sport in the world. Lose and you drop in the table/rankings/box score whatever you personally call it. Good teams get out of bad matchups by going up. Bad teams fall and find their level and then, wait, wait, they find equal matchups. Of course there will be some problems but isn’t that what I see happening now without hope or change?

And Coglin don’t open up with an insult on my threads. Be respectuful or don’t leave one at all.

Swamurabi.7890:

For those of you that don’t remember, one up one down is what season 2 became. It was the worst tournament for NA except for T1 where JQ and TC teamed up to beat BG.

Season 3 was only less bad because it was shorter.

Until the NA populations even out, there is no reason for a season 4 and I think that is why we haven’t had a season 4.

I’m not referring to any season. I’m referring to just weekly battles. NA will not balance itself if things are locked and if transfers like what happened to YB are permitted then stopped. I just think there is no reward system in WvW other than getting to play. If you win a week who cares, you just didn’t lose is the reward. If you lost then you are stuck possibly playing in the same matchup with even less interest by your server come the following week. If I lost and went down I’d be like cool, we have a chance. If I stomped two servers I’d be like cool, moving up, lets see how we do against better competition. Seems sound enough to me.

Would 1 up 1 down work better than glicko? I’d say so.

Are people actually using seasons as a reason to keep the glicko freeze going? With winner up loser down you’d be getting the closest matchups possible still, and new opponents each week.

Any excuses about getting stomped in PPT is weak. Now that the population issues are getting worked on T2 should not get blown out by T1, nor T3 by T2 and so on.

The only real issue is people want to say “im in tier 3” or “tier 2 is like this and tier 1 is like this” which they couldn’t do anymore.

displayname.8315:

Would 1 up 1 down work better than glicko? I’d say so.

Are people actually using seasons as a reason to keep the glicko freeze going? With winner up loser down you’d be getting the closest matchups possible still, and new opponents each week.

Any excuses about getting stomped in PPT is weak. Now that the population issues are getting worked on T2 should not get blown out by T1, nor T3 by T2 and so on.

The only real issue is people want to say “im in tier 3” or “tier 2 is like this and tier 1 is like this” which they couldn’t do anymore.

You’re joking right ?

You seriously think T3 can compete with T2, and T5 with T4 ?

Get real. It’s population and coverage which we all know is warped. Swiss style won’t work and is a poor solution that does lead to worse matches. Seasons already proved this. Just look back to last season and look at where GoM and DH are now. Ask them how great Swiss was for them.

TexZero.7910:

displayname.8315:

…..

You’re joking right ?

You seriously think T3 can compete with T2, and T5 with T4 ?

Get real. It’s population and coverage which we all know is warped. Swiss style won’t work and is a poor solution that does lead to worse matches. Seasons already proved this. Just look back to last season and look at where GoM and DH are now. Ask them how great Swiss was for them.

T3? well Maguuma is fairly stacked and yes if they show up and PPT in T2 they would do ok.. probably get 2nd over sos or whoever. But since it’s run by matchfixing peops and such thats a whole different discussion.

T5.. DB and DH both have some good zerg numbers thruout the day.. not like they would get vaporized in T4 or something…

Again with seasons as if it applies to current populations and balancing…. that type of round robin was not the same thing being discussed here.

One up one down only works with equal populations through several tiers.

Allowing returning players for HoT to return to their overstacked servers will just delay the balancing of populations.

It could take years to evenly spread out the populations. Even then this doesn’t guarantee a balanced population in each timezone.

What is in place now does not work. I fail to see how a 1 up 1 down trial for 2 months or so labeled as an “event” would do more harm than good. If it works well, it can be made permanent. If it works exactly like some of you think it will, then it goes away…..

If you hadn’t noticed, SOS went high and fa very high yesterday. You don’t think mag/sbi/cd can compete with them? Db has made a bit of a comeback, shouldn’t they get the chance to 1 up until they can go no farther?

Glicko takes way too long to adjust to shifting populations and NA has had huge shifts in the last month…..
————-
As far as returning players from HOT goes, I see all sorts of neat PVE things….. Wvw – where’s the beef? (Ok ancient reference there) I haven’t seen anything yet that will draw AND keep new bodies in wvw…..

First up, third down, it’s simple, clean, and easy, then we can ditch the Glicko system once and for all. When Hot Releases keep the one up, one down, one stays system and ditch 6-9 server worlds, people will be unhappy at first until they realize they can actually play against people again.

Liston.9708:

What is in place now does not work. I fail to see how a 1 up 1 down trial for 2 months or so labeled as an “event” would do more harm than good. If it works well, it can be made permanent. If it works exactly like some of you think it will, then it goes away……….

How do you fail to see it? That is precisely what happened in the WvW tournaments. Every other week, the server that moved down, dominated with extreme prejudice, while the server that moved up got beat like a yolked oxen.

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket to a place where they belonged. The fact some servers were stuck where they did not belong continued to influence the rest of the bracket. The other problem with this comparison is people stacked, and continued to stack, to various servers they predicted would win the bracket. This left quite a difference between bottom gold/top silver and bottom silver/top bronze. Would hod have been stacked if they could have climbed to gold?

This is the main difference I see.

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing. Basically tournaments made population issues worse than they ever were.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

Using tournaments as an example is a poor decision, people over stacked servers which drained population from others. The difference in populations was far worse during tournaments. IF they get rid of or merge some of the servers that should sort itself out.

Jethro.8725:

Get rid of the crafting booths too. Sometimes I see people sitting in there while we are losing our stuff. Aren’t there enough places in PVE to do that.

Dunno if you knew, but there’s a hefty bonus chance to critical crafting based on War Score each server gets while in WvW. It’s one of the many WvW-only buffs.

The crafting one should be applied to all players in PvE based on their home server, as this then keeps people from creating unnecessary queues. I think the intention by the original developers was to have these bonuses be a reason for fighting, but since it’s not attributed to individual performance, you just see leeches jumping in for a while to get from 0-500 crafting and talking in map chat.

Random.4691:

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing. Basically tournaments made population issues worse than they ever were.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

Using tournaments as an example is a poor decision, people over stacked servers which drained population from others. The difference in populations was far worse during tournaments. IF they get rid of or merge some of the servers that should sort itself out.

People already do this without tournaments. Stacking is the result of people just wanting a high population server and free wins for the sake of winning and steamrolling other people. Merges and constant fluctuations really won’t do much except demoralize people across the board for coming in second, because it pretty much leaves them no way to ever advance, as they’ll constantly be fighting against first place and a tier ahead of them, and subsequently, third will pretty much only have the ability to advance downward.

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

My memory could be failing, but was there not a ceiling and a floor? Silver could never get to t2 (gold) or t6 (bronze).

Each season that I recall had servers that would have dropped through that floor if they could-sor and maguuma come to mind. Some may have risen through that ceiling as well- hod comes to mind.

I will end it that I think comparing to a season / tournament where the stacked can’t rise far enough and the imploded can’t fall far enough is not comparable.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jethro.8725:

Get rid of the crafting booths too. Sometimes I see people sitting in there while we are losing our stuff. Aren’t there enough places in PVE to do that.

Dunno if you knew, but there’s a hefty bonus chance to critical crafting based on War Score each server gets while in WvW. It’s one of the many WvW-only buffs.

The crafting one should be applied to all players in PvE based on their home server, as this then keeps people from creating unnecessary queues. I think the intention by the original developers was to have these bonuses be a reason for fighting, but since it’s not attributed to individual performance, you just see leeches jumping in for a while to get from 0-500 crafting and talking in map chat.

Random.4691:

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing. Basically tournaments made population issues worse than they ever were.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

Using tournaments as an example is a poor decision, people over stacked servers which drained population from others. The difference in populations was far worse during tournaments. IF they get rid of or merge some of the servers that should sort itself out.

People already do this without tournaments. Stacking is the result of people just wanting a high population server and free wins for the sake of winning and steamrolling other people. Merges and constant fluctuations really won’t do much except demoralize people across the board for coming in second, because it pretty much leaves them no way to ever advance, as they’ll constantly be fighting against first place and a tier ahead of them, and subsequently, third will pretty much only have the ability to advance downward.

Yes they do BUT, we’re talking about Migration vs. Tournament stacking. The tourney stacking takes stacking to a whole new level, that’s the difference and also why it is a bad example to use.

Liston.9708:

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong. We had tournaments that literally used the exact winner moves up to the next tier and loser moved down a tier, every week of the tournament, precisely like the system your describing.

It was an utter disaster. Just as I detailed in my post above. We very literally have tested this system through the tournaments, and it was a complete failure.

My memory could be failing, but was there not a ceiling and a floor? Silver could never get to t2 (gold) or t6 (bronze).

Each season that I recall had servers that would have dropped through that floor if they could-sor and maguuma come to mind. Some may have risen through that ceiling as well- hod comes to mind.

I will end it that I think comparing to a season / tournament where the stacked can’t rise far enough and the imploded can’t fall far enough is not comparable.

We had tournaments that were straight up set so the winner moves up and the loser moved down, with no floor or ceiling at all. Some servers did drop through the floor.

How is comparing a tournament not comparable? It was an literal trial of what your asking for. And what do you think will happen if they do a trial of this again? Players will stack and play more WvW then normal, exactly like they do in a tournament, in order to hold their position. Because they know it will be a short trial, so they will pile onto the servers just like a tournament.

I agree Glicko sucks. But I think 1U1D would suck too. I may be being selfish because my tier is the best its been in a long time.

But anyway lets see. Lets project out the next few weeks results of a 1U1D system. (Since I’m NA I’ll only do that). The 8/28 match is based on the current match results staying as they are right now.

8/28
BG/JQ/YB | TC/SoS/SBI | FA/Mag/HoD | CD/Ebay/DB | NSP/DH/SoR | BP/AR/SF
Kain/GoM/FC | IoJ/ET/DR

9/4
BG/JQ/TC | YB/XXX/XXX | XXX/XXX/CD | HoD/XXX/NSP

Hmmm. This is more difficult and interesting than I thought it would be. I found I couldn’t really pick the Sept. 4th week after the initial 1u1d. And I absolutely couldn’t go past the T4 match because I don’t know the servers beyond that since I’m in T3.

Questions/Difficulty Predicting:

In a TC/SoS/SBI match, could SBI come in second? I personally dont’ think so due to SoS Ocx population.

FA/Mag/HoD: Could Mag beat FA? I really don’t know. Is FA just sleeping or has their population really dropped?

CD/Ebay/DB: Could DB beat Ebay for second?

Also, feel free to add the lower tier matches if you play there and know how it could turn out.

Johje Holan.4607:

I agree Glicko sucks. But I think 1U1D would suck too. I may be being selfish because my tier is the best its been in a long time.

But anyway lets see. Lets project out the next few weeks results of a 1U1D system. (Since I’m NA I’ll only do that). The 8/28 match is based on the current match results staying as they are right now.

8/28
BG/JQ/YB | TC/SoS/SBI | FA/Mag/HoD | CD/Ebay/DB | NSP/DH/SoR | BP/AR/SF
Kain/GoM/FC | IoJ/ET/DR

9/4
BG/JQ/TC | YB/XXX/XXX | XXX/XXX/CD | HoD/XXX/NSP

Hmmm. This is more difficult and interesting than I thought it would be. I found I couldn’t really pick the Sept. 4th week after the initial 1u1d. And I absolutely couldn’t go past the T4 match because I don’t know the servers beyond that since I’m in T3.

Questions/Difficulty Predicting:

In a TC/SoS/SBI match, could SBI come in second? I personally dont’ think so due to SoS Ocx population.

FA/Mag/HoD: Could Mag beat FA? I really don’t know. Is FA just sleeping or has their population really dropped?

CD/Ebay/DB: Could DB beat Ebay for second?

Also, feel free to add the lower tier matches if you play there and know how it could turn out.

Perhaps a program running with the matchmaking code where glicko is overridden if a server gets first 3 weeks in a row, while a server in the next tier up gets last 3 weeks in a row; they swap places.

This would have 2 immediate and positive effects.

A. It will allow the system to respond to major population shifts more quickly; where glicko can take months to correct.

B. If a server is happy in it’s tier but does not want to move up; they will be less encouraged to keep racking up the score and killing enjoyment for their enemies.

Two cons of course:

1. playing for 2nd among the 2nd and 3rd servers would be brutal and raise acrimony

2. 2v1’s or 1v0’s (2 servers sitting out) to move a server out of the tier would become more common.

Liston

What is in place now does not work. I fail to see how a 1 up 1 down trial for 2 months or so labeled as an “event” would do more harm than good. If it works well, it can be made permanent. If it works exactly like some of you think it will, then it goes away…..

I am not a fan of the 1up/1down system, largely because it will create a lot of very unbalanced match-up’s. Many servers have trouble finding someone remotely near themselves in numbers/skill/coverage/etc, and often there is but a single server or perhaps two other servers that are similar to you in all over capability. and then you keep getting changed into other match-up’s instead.

We already have a problem with how the tiers work, servers like IoJ and FC that are pretty close in points and possibly would be a good match for each others are locked out because one keeps rolling T7 and the other T8. With glicko they at least have a slight possibility of meeting each others once in a blue moon, with the 1up1down they would always get stuck moving past each others.

My own server Kaineng is also in a weird spot, where its 60 points up to next, and 80 points down to the next server, we don’t really have any good match-ups at all right now. So if we keep getting the two closest servers (SoR and IoJ) we can at least fight back somewhat, and not completely dominate the weaker server in the match-up. But with the 1up1down, that would be changed constantly for servers with larger size differences.

Or T1+2+3+4 Where whoever goes up gets destroyed, anyone goes down bulldoze the entire match-up. So basically every other week is "fair fights week" with straight match-up’s, and the opposite week is "crazy steamroll week" where half the population basically doesn’t bother to show up, because it is no fun to play when t1 vs t2 vs t3.

The population/coverage/size/whatnots between servers of different tiers is to large, which is *why* glicko doesn’t give huge variations in match-ups. If the variable match-ups was viable, glicko would give them. Notable exception here is how T1 glicko locked themselves, that should have been fixed by ANet from the start. Starting to like the idea of max/min glicko rating.

Liston

Glicko takes way too long to adjust to shifting populations and NA has had huge shifts in the last month…..

This can also be solved by adjusting the glicko calculations, to allow for faster changes.

coglin.1867:

Liston.9708:

And some servers were trapped because they could not rise above their bracket or drop below their bracket during a tournament……

That is wrong.

No that isn’t wrong. HoD should have been in Gold league and SoR in Bronze during Season 2. In Season 3, Maguuma should have been in Silver. The slow adjustment of glicko made those servers be in the wrong brackets for seasons without the possibility of moving into their proper place.