Guild Wars 2

When Anet gave WvW vets, a chance to test out HoT’s new WvW maps, why didnt you all bring attention to the problems when it was in testing period?

we did, u’re new here?

Well, I wasn’t invited and didn’t want to judge, but looking at the feedback forum, it has some similar concerns…. to the ones we have now.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/31-07-NEGATIVE-Feedback/5336950

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/The-Long-Siege-and-Player-Interest/5478546

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/Map-Too-big-it-will-kill-WvW/5471914

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/I-m-foreseeing-some-problems/5336176

Let’s not pretend these concerns came out of the blue.

Yeah we have had this discussion before. They did raise concerns and Anet launched it anyway.

Beside which, the Desert BL Beta previews were only for HoT hype and to generate some quick-fix feedback. The majority of what we’ve said in the past, which can be shown to be quite opposite to the directions that EoTM and Desert BL have gone, was said in 2013, 2012, and before that during the pre-launch betas.

That was when we thought that WvW was serious about being an RvR game.

WvW’ers were invited ?

All i saw was a massive publicity stunt and a lack of actual testing.

lol. i made a whole thread about it, but all white knights came out to argue! i knew it was too big, too complex, too jp like and way too much ai control and pve elements. when i saw the shrine buffs, i was like, isnt this just like eotm and istnt this the reasone people dont really like eotm elements. anet did not listen to the eotm feedback at all and created the map we have right now and its horrible for wvw.

we never cared about pve maps or pve events. in fact there is ha ton of bugs and threads about halloween events that prevented dolyaks and the stupid toxic mobs that contested towers and keeps. did they listen? nope!!! the made a map that matches the current pve map in maguma. all white knights kept telling me, nah it will be fine u just have to get used to it. yeah i tried and it still sucks! so op maybe inform uyourself before opening a new thread!

Knighthonor.4061:

When Anet gave WvW vets, a chance to test out HoT’s new WvW maps, why didnt you all bring attention to the problems when it was in testing period?

Everyone did. Anet didn’t listen. At all.

I was in several of the betas. We talked directly to Tyler B since he was on map with us. We mentioned various problems we had, and he tweaked some minor stuff. But we were there too late in the design phase for him to effect any major changes to the map itself.

Add in to this, the WvW betas were barren. There were zergs running around when the streamers were doing their thing. After that it became a ghost town.

How can you beta test a map designed for groups of all sizes to fight other groups when you have no groups of any size running around for 90% of the test?

A part of it can be down to how little actual WvW was done in the tests from what I saw. Personally I don’t mind the new maps, the event in the middle should be changed imo and accessibility for getting around could do with “streamlining” as they might say. I like how keeps are now actual forts that can’t be solo’d or Zerg rushed as easily, was a major turn off from WvW when you saw your home garri flip because a 50 man blob ported straight into home border and went straight for WG and it dropped in minutes to 6 super Rams and PVD.

People DID give feedback. Unfortunately Ante doesn’t listen to any feedback which goes against their vision for the game…. Ever!

I played back in Alpha, a year before the game launched and feedback was given about pretty much everything which has been since launch.
This includes rallying and combat rezzing we are just about to see addressed… THIS WAS 4 YEARS AGO!!
You want to know the 1 change I recommended which made it into launch?
That little auto play tick box on the launcher…

One tickbox… Out of EVERY kitten SUGGESTION AND FEEDBACK.
I have guildees who refused to buy the game at launch because of Anet’s refusal to listen to feedback.
My guild died 8 months after launch because they made changes we all said were bad.
This trend has continued for 4 years. This upcoming sneak peak patch is the first time in 4 years I’ve seen Anet implement changes WE suggested.

Really sad state of affairs. Unfortunately there is no other wvw style game which has interested me.

Knighthonor.4061:

When Anet gave WvW vets, a chance to test out HoT’s new WvW maps, why didnt you all bring attention to the problems when it was in testing period?

We did.

Anet didn’t care, they were bent on making WvW ETOM v.2 and not listen to any players – not one of us.

Once that map was released into Beta, aside from minor changes it was set to be in HoT. Development efforts are typically on rails months out so once it got to Beta it was going into production after they shook most of the big bugs out. It is likely some of the developers probably had the same reservations but it was just too late.

The Deserted map was a screw up in design that likely happened long before it was developed. If it was going to go through a major overhaul, it would have been at the beginning of development long before a user actually saw it.

The way Anet develops content, no discussing anything before its done leads to the major problems with the new map and maps like EotM. I am pretty sure Mike O’Brien and upper management feel that this is their game and player feedback is only for very minor tweaks. We are supposed to play what they give us because they define what the game is supposed to be. That’s how the PvE side works. I think they have been forced to take feedback seriously in PvP to build up esports. Now we see a whole batch of suggested changes coming to WvW in “early 2016”. Does that and the “overhaul” represent a change in design philosophy, or just lip service. hard to say, clearly the advertised changes are damage control, as I am sure WvW participation is at an all time low that is far worse than Anet expected

atheria.2837:

Knighthonor.4061:

When Anet gave WvW vets, a chance to test out HoT’s new WvW maps, why didnt you all bring attention to the problems when it was in testing period?

We did.

Anet didn’t care, they were bent on making WvW ETOM v.2 and not listen to any players – not one of us.

This.

The devs are like most politicians, they mouth the words that they are listening but in reality they have on full blinders and ear plugs.

The only thing the devs listen to is their egos.

WvW players have been telling the devs for years that their “improvements” are garbage. And you can bet that their new WvW revamp will be nothing we asked for and most probably just more craptastic PvE.

Crowfall and / or Camelot Unchained are the only hope for Realm vs Realm gaming at this point. ANET has proven over and over that they don’t have a clue.

After the HoT fiasco it has also become very clear to players that resistance is futile.
Anet doesn’t negotiate, they just do as they please and feedback is meaningless.
They will never get the amount of quality feedback anymore that they have gotten in the past. This will seriously hamper any attempt to restore WvW to what it should be if they ever intend to (not likely anyway).

Tspatula.9086:

The way Anet develops content, no discussing anything before its done leads to the major problems with the new map and maps like EotM. I am pretty sure Mike O’Brien and upper management feel that this is their game and player feedback is only for very minor tweaks. We are supposed to play what they give us because they define what the game is supposed to be.

Yes.

I honestly don’t understand the obsession with wanting to own and manage the game design by those who don’t actually make investments in the company. I suppose it has to do with some nostalgic attachment developed by being a customer for the past few years. Don’t consume the product if you are no longer enjoying it. No one is forcing you to play what you are given. Another game company will compete.

That they’re “listening” now with the minor tweaks, supposedly coming up sometime in January, just shows how desperate they are and how bad their WvW metrics must be.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, I wasn’t invited and didn’t want to judge, but looking at the feedback forum, it has some similar concerns…. to the ones we have now.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/31-07-NEGATIVE-Feedback/5336950

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/The-Long-Siege-and-Player-Interest/5478546

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/Map-Too-big-it-will-kill-WvW/5471914

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/I-m-foreseeing-some-problems/5336176

Let’s not pretend these concerns came out of the blue.

lol, OP sure feel stupid now, eh?

Chaba.5410:

Tspatula.9086:

The way Anet develops content, no discussing anything before its done leads to the major problems with the new map and maps like EotM. I am pretty sure Mike O’Brien and upper management feel that this is their game and player feedback is only for very minor tweaks. We are supposed to play what they give us because they define what the game is supposed to be.

Yes.

I honestly don’t understand the obsession with wanting to own and manage the game design by those who don’t actually make investments in the company. I suppose it has to do with some nostalgic attachment developed by being a customer for the past few years. Don’t consume the product if you are no longer enjoying it. No one is forcing you to play what you are given. Another game company will compete.

It’s not an obsession with wanting to own and manage. It is a desire to be involved and respected as more than a consumer. The desire is coming from multiple origins, not the least of which is marketing that plays on and exploits precisely that desire.

MMO gaming is not the only first-world stage where this drama plays out. It does have some special characteristics here, good and bad, for all involved parties.

You say “no one is forcing you to play”—a common white knight shield—and that glosses over the fact that coercion is grey and fundamental to all sides of adversarial issues between profit seekers and their sources of income.

Certainly, competitors are preparing their wares. What they’ll deliver, and the itches they’ll scratch, are open to question. I think that we do well to press them toward improved versions of themselves, to encourage that competition, and I don’t think that means always being nice about it.

Adapting to costumers needs is what will make McDonald’s still be here long after GW2 is dead.

ANet can only offer the same burger again and again, with some small changes to the seeds over the bread.

RedBaron.6058:

Adapting to costumers needs is what will make McDonald’s still be here long after GW2 is dead.

LOL no one here is asking for cheap, processed food with bits of plastic inside of it, but high quality French cuisine. Yea, McDonald’s provides really what customers “need”.

Caliburn.1845:

There were zergs running around when the streamers were doing their thing. After that it became a ghost town.

Which should have been the huge sign that the map wasn’t good. If it was, players would have stayed on it as much as they could. It’s a ghost town then as it is now.

DeWolfe.2174:

Caliburn.1845:

There were zergs running around when the streamers were doing their thing. After that it became a ghost town.

Which should have been the huge sign that the map wasn’t good. If it was, players would have stayed on it as much as they could. It’s a ghost town then as it is now.

Most people including myself didn’t realize there was even a second beta going on, it wasn’t handled very well at all so that’s the main reason there weren’t many people. Not saying the map doesn’t suck but it definitely wasn’t the main reason imo

there were post with lots of replies complaining but of course you have the fan boys who were defending it saying they, “love it,” not as if anet would have back tracked after produce a completed map anyways.

That’s what happen when you throw a bounch of developers that have 0 clue about WvW to design maps and,on the top of that,you force them to follow directives gived from peoples that know WvW even less than them .

Beta was to test map mechanics,not to hear our opinions.
The new maps were already designed,and it required a lot of work for them.
Do you think after all that work and money investment to design that map they could ever care about people screaming “Huston we have a problem” !?
No of course.

But don’t worry,a genius told us they are working on improvements for the WvW,because that Desert borders were not ready at the HoT release yet.
With that improvements it will be a complete different experience walk around in a giant empty map,because things will have no auto upgrade,catapults will cost less supply,and players will come back.

Both of the actual WvWers that were invited did complain. Both of them.

They did. The thing to keep in mind is it was also being packaged with a new release and I’m sure they were pushing deadlines. They we’re open and upfront with the community that it would have to be revisited after the expansion was released.

No curve ball’s were thrown.

Adula.3698:

Both of the actual WvWers that were invited did complain. Both of them.

I was invited but didn’t know until the last few hours. It took quite a while to download the game client – so I hadn’t had a lot of time to look around. Also the map was pretty empty. I couldn’t actually test combat but what I wrote on the forums was: “Map too big, too much PvE” (tried to be constructive). What I told my friends: “Half of the zerg will be killed by the map before reaching their destination” and “Everybody will be on EB”. They didn’t believe me.

Anyway: I still think that the new map could work with some tweaks here and there. To me it’s lots of other stuff that needs work in wvw – the map itself is the least of the problems, in my opinion.

Jana.6831:

Adula.3698:

Both of the actual WvWers that were invited did complain. Both of them.

I was invited but didn’t know until the last few hours. It took quite a while to download the game client – so I hadn’t had a lot of time to look around. Also the map was pretty empty. I couldn’t actually test combat but what I wrote on the forums was: “Map too big, too much PvE” (tried to be constructive).

Same here. The beta test was almost over two hours after it started. The only thing left, was a green zerg ktraining and some try hard cheese build roamers, who tried to kill everyone exploring the map.
The map was already dead during the beta test. I’ve never seen something like this.

Jana.6831:

Adula.3698:

Both of the actual WvWers that were invited did complain. Both of them.

I was invited but didn’t know until the last few hours. It took quite a while to download the game client – so I hadn’t had a lot of time to look around. Also the map was pretty empty. I couldn’t actually test combat but what I wrote on the forums was: “Map too big, too much PvE” (tried to be constructive). What I told my friends: “Half of the zerg will be killed by the map before reaching their destination” and “Everybody will be on EB”. They didn’t believe me.

Anyway: I still think that the new map could work with some tweaks here and there. To me it’s lots of other stuff that needs work in wvw – the map itself is the least of the problems, in my opinion.

I disagree. There is no way the new map can work at this point. Anything short of outright removing it and reinstating Alpine would have little to no effect on bringing back players they lost over it. It would be a too little too late situation if they just tried to tweak it now. They should have taken their beta results seriously and not released the map until it had a positive reception in beta, it is too late now to change that, so all they can do is remove it and maybe try to make new smaller less gimmicky maps and use them for a week at a time to see how they work instead.

I tried telling people EoTM is the future of WvW long ago.. No one wanted to believe it, but they have not yet tested anything outside of that, so we can expect that to be what we get. The new maps were based on EoTM, the mechanics were tested in EoTM. ( as I said they would be the second they started describing them and people told me " you can’t know that, wait and see") So if what we have seen come from this is the new maps.. the only " alliance" system they have yet tested in the game is the EoTM alliance system.. doesn’t that sound lovely? Even tweaked it is horrendous.

Ahh some of the very people complaining about the maps today told me that would not be the case …

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/EoTM-is-the-future-of-wvw/first

lil devils x.6071:

I disagree. There is no way the new map can work at this point. Anything short of outright removing it and reinstating Alpine would have little to no effect on bringing back players they lost over it.

I doubt those who left will be coming back – but that aside:
You get the Alpine Borderlands back. WPs not working. Ok. Walls at 0% health after an upgrade. Ok. You step outside are hit by a spaceship zerg and rev hammer 2, dragon banners. Ok. You try to roam and are killed by elite specs – and anyway no one is solo roaming anymore anyway as the overall damage is too high. You try to build an AC to defend a tower, but you’re alone and need to run 3 times to get that thing up while the enemies just use their aoe spells to destroy it before you have a chance to get it up.

And yes, by the looks of it wvw is pretty much dead – doesn’t matter what they do, except giving control back to the players = getting all the OP kitten that’s favouring blobs, though was meant to beat them, out and let us play our game. But I don’t think a reroll to the Alpine Borderlands would solve anything. Not saying I’m opposing it, but people think that it’s the new maps that killed wvw and that’s not true.

Edit: Spelling

ETA (on general topic) : We’ve had guild groups of ~20 on our BL before HoT – it worked pretty well. But they had to combine forces from time to time against the enemy blob.
The new maps are designed to break blobs but at the same time: Enemies have only one spawn, so 3 groups of 20 come from the same direction. The map is that complicated that they basically jam and become a blob – and that can’t be solved that easily.

Jana.6831:

lil devils x.6071:

I disagree. There is no way the new map can work at this point. Anything short of outright removing it and reinstating Alpine would have little to no effect on bringing back players they lost over it.

I doubt those who left will be coming back – but that aside:
You get the alpine borderlands back. WPs not working. Ok. Walls at 0% health after an upgrade. Ok. You step outside are hit by a spaceship zrg and rev hammer 2, dragon banners. Ok. You try to roam and are killed by elite specs – and anyway no one is solo roaming anymore anyway as the overall damage is too high. You try to build an AC to defend a tower, but you’re alone and ned to run 3 times to get that thing up while the enemies just use their aoe spells.

And yes, by the looks of it wvw is pretty much dead – doesn’t matter what they do, except giving control back to the players = getting all the OP kitten that’s favouring Blobs though was meant to beat them, out and let us play our game. But I don’t think a reroll to the Alpine Borderlands would solve anything. Not saying I’m opposing it, but people think that it’s the new maps that killed wvw and that’s not true.

I disagree, I think everything hangs on what they do, and that IS all that matters here. You can bring back WVW players, but you have to do it right. step 1) Immediately reinstate old Alpine maps immediately and revert WvW to pre Hot and email all your players letting them know you did and and are working on it immediately, making it your first priority.. Int he meantime, they run WvW tournaments with big prizes and increase loot for WvW to buy them time and get people back in there.That is NOT the final solution here, that is just to stop the bleeding.. They can do a variety of loot related events in WVW to gain interest while repairing it. Can be " Retro WvW tournaments" or some nonsense.

THEN make a variety of smaller maps and just implement the maps with the old WvW mechanics and implement them for a week at a time to see how they are received ( which takes much less time than adding all new mechanics.) Adding in small changes for test periods makes things happen at a much higher pace and will have them better received than dumping a massive bouncing PVE gimmicky map on the people and telling them to deal with it. LOL

What they do now and how quickly they do it is what is most important here to salvage WvW.

When they ever did listen to players? Green$ are better voice.

Jana.6831:

lil devils x.6071:

I disagree. There is no way the new map can work at this point. Anything short of outright removing it and reinstating Alpine would have little to no effect on bringing back players they lost over it.

I doubt those who left will be coming back – but that aside:
You get the Alpine Borderlands back. WPs not working. Ok. Walls at 0% health after an upgrade. Ok. You step outside are hit by a spaceship zerg and rev hammer 2, dragon banners. Ok. You try to roam and are killed by elite specs – and anyway no one is solo roaming anymore anyway as the overall damage is too high. You try to build an AC to defend a tower, but you’re alone and need to run 3 times to get that thing up while the enemies just use their aoe spells to destroy it before you have a chance to get it up.

And yes, by the looks of it wvw is pretty much dead – doesn’t matter what they do, except giving control back to the players = getting all the OP kitten that’s favouring blobs, though was meant to beat them, out and let us play our game. But I don’t think a reroll to the Alpine Borderlands would solve anything. Not saying I’m opposing it, but people think that it’s the new maps that killed wvw and that’s not true.

Edit: Spelling

ETA (on general topic) : We’ve had guild groups of ~20 on our BL before HoT – it worked pretty well. But they had to combine forces from time to time against the enemy blob.
The new maps are designed to break blobs but at the same time: Enemies have only one spawn, so 3 groups of 20 come from the same direction. The map is that complicated that they basically jam and become a blob – and that can’t be solved that easily.

I agree with pretty much most if not all of what you say here. Alpine won’t save WvW, though it might help a tiny bit. Bronze NA was practically dead before HoT. And now the majority points that are scored are by so called “off hours” PVD against NPCs with little to zero. It’s pretty bad when at reset there’s no more than 30 players on a server across all maps, and within 2 hrs. of reset it’s down to maybe a party sized group or 2 at most.

I honestly think we (as WvWers) have lost so MANY experienced people or people in general that I don’t think it can be saved. I doubt Anet is really going to do some meaningful changes that we want. It would take a Festivus miracle to save it IMO. Yeah T1 is doing “ok”, but EB is the only place people fight. Yeah, there’s one server that likes to PVD in the empty BLs like PPT means anything, but that can’t be fun and I’m sure they’ll get sick of it soon and probably leave also. Things in regular WvW have gotten so bad that EOTM is more fun and there’s more fights. Now that’s just sad.

I tell you, if I was one of the Devs of WvW or a project manager, I’d feel sick and want to go in on off hours to fix it. But I’m the type of person who takes my job seriously and I would constantly work on it till it was perfect or tell the MASSIVE complaints stopped pouring in. I’d also be on here interacting with my customers constantly getting the feel of what I could do to make it better. I know you can’t make everyone happy, but you can tell by the population and the hourly threads online that people are beyond fed up. It’s not like there’s a new MMO out that is amazing where people are leaving to, it’s this game driving people away sadly. That would just bug me so much as a dev or manager. I don’t understand the almost total lack of communication and interaction from Anet for over a year, if not longer. I used to have PvP to fall back on, but that’s a mess also, though not as bad imo.

They had like 2 beta tests for the new map. The very first night had a lot of legit wvw commanders and guilds around, not just streamers, but I only got to play about 2 hours of that test so I don’t know how the rest of it went.

For the second test, everyone from the first test could participate, only they weren’t notified of this. The only players who got emails were the newly invited testers, so the first day was basically a ghost town. Anet had to come to the forums and post a reminder that players from the first test could still participate, but that was too late. I think a lot of players had already wrote the map off from the first test.

In any case the new map isn’t the only thing that has killed wvw, it’s one of many nails they hammered on crooked and now it’s bent and it’s a pain in the kitten to straighten, and you just want to rip that sucker back out and use screws instead, but they’ll end up just hammering the kitten thing until it’s down one way or another.

Knighthonor.4061:

When Anet gave WvW vets, a chance to test out HoT’s new WvW maps, why didnt you all bring attention to the problems when it was in testing period?

We did on every beta that was made, i was on all but one, and we told this will happen and it did happen. So we have fullfilled our part by leaving feedback, writing posts and what not, A-Net choose to not listen to it. And gave us everything we did not want. Dead homeborders are the results. Comunites and guilds breaking up are the results. New players coming in have no clue how to fight so they get run over and leave because they dont understand how great this game mode is, because they never got to see it when it was at it’s best. And it did not go down because lack of players, players were complaining for a long time, and we also said people will leave, and now they are.

ArchonWing.9480:

Well, I wasn’t invited and didn’t want to judge, but looking at the feedback forum, it has some similar concerns…. to the ones we have now.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/31-07-NEGATIVE-Feedback/5336950

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/The-Long-Siege-and-Player-Interest/5478546

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/Map-Too-big-it-will-kill-WvW/5471914

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/wuvtest/I-m-foreseeing-some-problems/5336176

Let’s not pretend these concerns came out of the blue.

It hurts me to read that the only change the devs considered was adjusting the timers, which likely takes less than an hour to implement.

I’m guessing that the guild upgrades weren’t behind a 3 month paywall in the beta, lol?

Svarty.8019:

I’m guessing that the guild upgrades weren’t behind a 3 month paywall in the beta, lol?

Nope, and we didn’t even have an hint about how stupidly time/money gated they would be.

During the beta, every upgrade was available for free and in unlimited quantities.

Changing that would make for a completely different experience in WvW – right now.

Svarty.8019:

I’m guessing that the guild upgrades weren’t behind a 3 month paywall in the beta, lol?

Everything was for free and all they told us, was to buy HoT for all those awesome features…then they took us away all the guild upgrades and put it behind a huge grindwall like they did with specializations. I loved this move. The game is sooo much better now! <3