Some suggestions for improving WvW since HoT

Some suggestions for improving WvW since HoT

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Posted by: Grendels Mother.5713

Grendels Mother.5713

Be forewarned that this is a very long post. These are just my opinions. I have tried to offer constructive commentary and propose 6 recommendations,

It is an attempt at proposing changes to the new Desert Borderland (DB) map and to some elements of WvW related gameplay. I believe these changes would achieve the following;
a) encourage strategic decision making
b) strengthen the feeling of investment in a map which encourages scouting and defense
c) provide greater opportunity for player vs. player engagement at all scales

Desert Borderland Map

The challenges the new map presents are;
a) increased pathing options when navigating from A to B leading to a feeling of isolation with reduced chance of small scale encounters
b) increased path lengths when navigating between locations increasing the response time to hot-spots on the map
c) the lack of waypoints which both increases map traversal (predictive and reactive) time and impedes defensive play
d) objectives with no strategic meaning lowering the maps offensive and defensive value

Map design is resource (and hence cost) intensive, so any recommended changes should be of such a scale as to remain practical from an implementation perspective.

Recommendation 1

All four towers on the DB map have limited strategic value. In particular the north east (NE) and north west (NW) towers have no effect on game play apart from their contribution to PPT. In the Alpine Borderland (AB) maps the NW and NE towers posed a direct threat to Garrison if held by the enemy, or presented an opportunity for capping Garrison depending on your perspective. In addition, the south west tower in the AB map presented the same dynamic with respect to Bay. This created many opportunities for player vs. player encounters from the small to the large scale. This is missing in the new DB map.

In figure 1. a high resolution map of the new DB map is presented. Based on the range of a trebuchet (10,000 units) I have identified three positions (labelled A, B and C in yellow on the map with a range circle centred) from which the Main (central), Fire and Air keeps can be attacked. Re-positioning the towers would be too impractical so I want to introduce the concept of an Outpost.

http://i.imgur.com/YIGHi3e.jpg
Figure 1. Desert Borderland Map. Showing proposed Outposts locations with Trebuchet ranges and associated destructible keep walls.

Outposts are located at positions A, B, C and D in the map. Each Outpost is affiliated with its closest tower and is incorporated into the structural upgrade path (see my Upgrade System recommendations). Pre-upgrade the outposts are ruins, so this is the state immediately after a tower is flipped. The effect of the Outpost upgrade is to repair it. The Outpost upgrades inline with a towers structural upgrade. Cap the tower and the Outpost returns to a ruined state. The purpose of each outpost is to provide opportunities for scouting and offensive sieging against keeps. The towers now present a vicarious threat to the keeps through their outposts, the only way to remove that threat is to cap the associated towers.

With regard to implementation they are a simple model with a small footprint. Reuse of existing GW2 assets would minimize this change. Two formats come to mind – either a single tower or a small walled enclosure. A platform, single destructible gate and supply depot. Something along the lines of Klovan or Bravost without the lords room extension, these are approximately 1800 units square and their scale on the DB map are indicated. For offensive sieging against keeps, modifications to the south east Main keep corner walls and the Air keep wall to the west of the north gate need to be made destructible

Recommendation 2

Your home borderland is just that, it is your home. By definition in your home you should have a defensive advantage. Waypoints provide exactly that. On a map the scale of the DB map this is more important than ever before. Waypoints facilitate quick movement around a map enabling effective scouting , defensive play-styles and access to the more open areas for guild oriented fighting .

To this end, waypoints need to be instated in the Fire and Air keeps and removed from the southern towers. The southern towers are already convenient to the enemy spawns and combined with the fact that home players can’t use these waypoints means there is little, if any, advantage in keeping these waypoints. These waypoints should be removed. I have indicated on the DB map those waypoints that need removing by a red cross, and the positions of the waypoints in each of the keeps (see figure 1).

On a minor note the waypoint in the Main keep (central north of the DB map) seems inconveniently placed. In my opinion this waypoint would be better placed to the north of the Keep Lords platform. This would enhance the defensive advantage of your main home keep, that is, allowing players to quickly get back into the fight when the keep needs contesting. The position of the waypoints can be seen in figures 2, 3 and 4.

http://i.imgur.com/vm7jPBe.png
Figure 2. Main (central north) Keep Waypoint Location

http://i.imgur.com/UFWWFph.png
Figure 3. Fire Keep Waypoint Location

http://i.imgur.com/gXfPAMC.png
Figure 4. Air Keep Waypoint Location

Waypoints should not support blobbing by large zergs on a map, and so a cap on the number of players than can use a waypoint over a given interval may help to split up large groups. This functionality is similar to that employed for mesmer portals where a limit of 20 players is placed. I would suggest a limit of 30 to 40 players being allowed to use a waypoint over a 2.5 minute interval. An exception to this would be the spawn waypoint.

Recommendation 3

Remove the Oasis Event (OE) from the centre of the DB map. The effect of this event which spawns every 3 hours is to enable the more organised (and usually larger) force to severely weaken all enemy owned objectives. The old breakout event favored that server being at a disadvantage, which is how these events should work. Events such as the OE only foster an easy win and wxp/karma orientation; which diminishes any strategy and tactical approaches to WvW game play.

This event should be replaced with a ‘King of Hill’ type of scenario where players must cap and then hold the area (not like the ruin bloodlust event where you only had to hold for a short period of time). Holding this area results in a boon being applied to all held objectives, such as, 10% increased healing or similar. Maybe, someone else can come up with a better idea here.

Upgrade System

Devolving players power from making choices and introducing automated upgrades has a negative impact on gameplay. Manual upgrades provide an emotional connection where players have invested time and resource; they have been involved in strategic decision making that can have wide ranging effect. It is this investment that is at the root of driving a sense of ownership and hence, defensive play. This encourages players to come to the DB map.

Recommendation 4

Return all upgrades to be manually driven and supply based as in the AB map. Deciding which upgrades to run, how much supply was available versus how much was required, whether enough camps were owned and what upgrades they had; these were all central to scouting and defensive gameplay. Disrupting this flow was central to roaming and havoc groups.

I suggest a hybrid approach to funding upgrades. Players have complained about the upgrade cost in the past, but I believe that this lies at the heart of the feeling of investment. The hybrid upgrade process should be driven by a cost based on a combination of Badges of Honor and gold. This lowers the overall gold cost without removing it altogether.

Recommendation 5

Restructure the upgrades. The upgrade paths introduced with HoT are over simplified and offer no opportunity for choice to effect the outcome. I suggest the keep and tower upgrades are regrouped into “Defensive” and “Structural” paths (similar but not identical to the old upgrades). The paths have three tiers (as in the AB system) each consisting of an upgrade pair, that can be considered as major and minor upgrade. The major item is based on the path type, and the minor item a personnel upgrade. This pairing avoids the mistakes of the past where miss-timed upgrades could frustrate players needs. I have attached new dialogs describing keep, tower and camp upgrades; see figures 5, 6 and 7. To support the supply driven upgrade model the camp upgrades have reinstated increased supply delivery.

http://i.imgur.com/gGvTtBL.png
Figure 5. Camp Upgrades

http://i.imgur.com/qOQDwc5.png
Figure 6. Tower Upgrades

http://i.imgur.com/2CoD3SV.png
Figure 7. Keep Upgrades

Guild Halls

Guild Halls through the War Room and associated WvW upgrades can have the effect of alienating the smaller guilds and frustrating the larger guilds. Placing all WvW upgrades behind the HoT expansion has removed gameplay that was previously available and purchased under the core game title. The considerable costs, both material and time gated, associated with the guild WvW upgrades have removed gameplay from WvW that was pre-existing and now must be re-earned. So there are two outcomes, a loss of rights and a loss of content.

Recommendation 6

Separate the pre-Hot guild upgrades from Guild Halls and make these available to all players. A player can start a guild but should not be obliged to go down the Guild Hall path to access these core upgrades. Upgrades could be managed through the guild dialog with a tab similar to the guild initiative representative npc upgrades. The upgrades should be applied through the guild claiming npc at each objective, as they were before. In addition, I would remove the Tactivators (one for each tier of tactics which just looks like a kludge) and incorporate these into the npc dialog as well.

Guilds no longer earn influence as an upgrade currency, so this can be traded for favor (time gated via a LA npc) or converted to resonance. Currently, resonance is used to speed up the research queue. Implementing a currency for these non-HoT gated upgrades would possibly need to based on favor. However, the earning of favor would need to supported outside of completing guild missions and the influence gating removed.

All “WvW Guild Claiming” upgrades (camp, tower, keep, sm) should be under a single upgrade and made available outside of the Guild Halls. Scribing: Packed Dolyaks that give double supply capacity should be removed inline with the upgrade changes outlined previously. Scribing: Guild “Siege” should be made available outside of HoT. Among the Objective Aura upgrades “Supply Capacity” similarly should be available outside of HoT. The Objective Aura upgrades “Power”, “Vilatilty, “Precision”, “Toughness” appear to be all +100 to the stat which is quite higher than previous which IIRC was +40. This could be implemented in two levels, the lower available outside of HoT.

End Note

If you have read this far thank you. Well that’s it. I hope this makes sense and that someone from Anet reads this. WvW was the staple of my day, and since HoT I just don’t have the desire to play anymore. I made this post in the hope that it strikes a nerve with the players and summarises some of what could change WvW for the better. I am sure there are other things that could be tweaked and if you can think of any then please add to this post.

(edited by Grendels Mother.5713)

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Posted by: madpig.3615

madpig.3615

Wow Grendel….

nothing more to say… simply +1 for this…

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Posted by: Dawntree.7246

Dawntree.7246

I mostly agree with Grendel suggestions, I really hope a dev takes his time to read this, it gives a good insight of why a lot of new features feels bad now.

1) I like the added “road patrol” value of tower, however not at the cost of losing connection with keeps. Especially for 2 northern towers.
2) Waypoints would help making the map feeling “smaller”. I would still keep the waypoint for spawn towers though.
3) Haven’t really tried Oasis properly, for now it’s a good opportunity to damage gates against all T3 stuff, but most of the time it’s empty in our tier, so it’s just a PvE event.
4-5) Autoupgrades are BAD. Players want and need to be part of it. Otherwise it’s just a timer. I won’t reintroduce gold though. It was harsh to dump gold into an upgrade and then watching a blob of enemies come and just sweep with no one defending. It made me stop upgrading. I think the element of choice and interaction with player is enough to make feel people more “connected” to structures. This could also be amplified by claiming. I could live with the idea of spending a few BoH, but ask me to spend 10g for upgrading a keep is a no go.

Autoupgrade also have the side effect of making nightcap even worse. So nice to wake up to 4 maps full of T3.

I also agree that dolyaks should be part of the equation. Who cares about giving dolyaks a defence if their role is almost completely gone..

6) I do like the gating because it prevent troll or undesired claims on important structures. However, guilds should be able to get a camp and +5 without having to throw thousands of gold. Now I guess most of the smaller one will just give up, and bigger will also feel less attracted to claiming and everything else related. So less guild involvement. Which is INCREDIBLY BAD for WvW.

HoT gating is bad for a lot of reasons.

Emanuel Dawntree – Nord Guardian of [TasH] – 9×80
Whiteside Ridge

(edited by Dawntree.7246)

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

+1 … This is a very good documentaton of what shoul happen and seems quite doable.

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Posted by: CornishRose.2815

CornishRose.2815

By far one of the most detailed and logical alternatives for the new WvW Maps. +1

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Posted by: riva.1357

riva.1357

Amazing post Grendel. The most important changes, and maybe the easiest for ANET to make, in my opinion are related to scribing and upgrades. As of now small guilds are indeed getting shafted and a ton of content has been gated for no reason. In the long run it will probably only serve to greaten the feeling of apathy around WvW. Same for upgrades. The automatic upgrades and virtual redundancy of dolyaks only serves towards apathy in defense. There’s no interaction.

The new map is something else. It seems hard to make big changes there by its nature and layout alone. I agree that the oasis event needs to go and the waypoints need to be moved. All in all, wvw needs work they broke a lot with HoT and I hope Anet is listening for once.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

This is exceptionally well written and well thought out. I do indeed hope Anet reads it all. I agree with everything in the OP.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Nedus.6952

Nedus.6952

Recommendation 1.
EDIT: ok i’ve red your edit. I got clearer picture now so, i second this.

Recommendation 2
Totally yes on the WP back to W and E keeps but i think these wp still should be earned even in home BL, so they should be a result of upgrades like good old times. This would incite people to actually care even more about defense (if you don’t def -> you lose WP -> enjoy walking this endless map).
I’m not sure about the limit players x WP at a given time tho. It would split guilds/commanders groups in half making things a bit uneasy, maybe even leading to flame and such “omg commander why you wped your gruop? We said we [GUILD] wanted to wp there!”

Recommendation 3
Yes, just yes, remove oasis. Pointless full pve event that doesn’t make any sense in WvW and it is unbalanced since it is an additional tool for the strongest server on the field. But for this same reason, i don’t think something like “king of the hill” would be ok either (still the stronger server would benefit from it).
My idea: maybe they could make some small arenas where only a minimum/maximum ammount of players can be inside at same time and they can fight inside there for something that will lead to a small boon that grants some small benefits to whole server (ONLY in that map, not like former bloodlust).

Like immagine 5 circle areas like former ruins: if 3 green are inside 1 area then 3 and only 3 blue can enter this same area and join w/e quest inside. The winner gets the temporary server boon.

Or something else, i don’t know and tbh i don’t care, but oasis event must disappear.

Recommendation 4
I agree, upgrades must be human made so that everything is earned and not granted. Make the costs a mix of badges and karma and very low coins, so scouts can afford it.

Recommendation 5
EDIT: Ok i looked a bit better the picture and i think i figured out the whole “pair” “tiers” “major and minor” etc, makes sense. +1

Recommendation 6
All i care about guild claiming is this: It doesn’t matter if you’re in a 300 man guild or 1 man guild. If you are a WvW player you deserve full rights to give +5 to a structure. The rest is more “guild focused” stuff; altho i understand these problems i can’t say much about it since i’m a lone wolf.

Good job Grendel and nice detailed walltext. But i hate you because you didn’t read my own thread T_T
EDIT: It’s ok i was joking Grendel

Passero ~ Jade Sea
Former member of WSR and AG.

(edited by Nedus.6952)

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Posted by: Grendels Mother.5713

Grendels Mother.5713

Sorry Passero, I have not paid much attention to GW2 related things for a week or so. During which time I have been working on this post on a very part time basis. I have edited and emphasized the point of the Outposts so hopefully their purpose is a little clearer.

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

d) objectives with no strategic meaning lowering the maps offensive and defensive value

What does that mean precisely?

I assume you have locations in mind, but which ones? How did you determine their strategic value?

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Grendels Mother.5713

Grendels Mother.5713

d) objectives with no strategic meaning lowering the maps offensive and defensive value

What does that mean precisely?

I assume you have locations in mind, but which ones? How did you determine their strategic value?

Read “Recommendation 1” I think that answers this question.

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Posted by: PariahX.6970

PariahX.6970

very well thought out ideas that could enhance the game-play of these maps and which mostly feel very doable and possible. Nicely done. Someone make sure a copy of this gets to reddit just in case we don’t have enough ANET eyes around here.

~Cheers

~Xylla~ [oG] on Ehmry Bay [PiXi]
Xyleia Luxuria / Sweet Little Agony / Morning Glory Wine / Precious Illusionz /
Near Fanstastica /Ocean at the End / Blue Eyed Hexe / Andro Queen / Indie Cindee . . .

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Posted by: Sich.7103

Sich.7103

very good post, just bad that Anet don’t care and want to kill WvW…

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Posted by: Diku.2546

Diku.2546

Amid all the posts that scream for a fix & offer solutions that are half baked.

This is like finding a diamond in the rough…

I’ll remember this thread…and if you don’t mind…I’ll be referencing it in the future to point out areas that ANet should consider implementing to improve our WvW gameplay in the Desert Borderland.

Diku

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Posted by: Algerius.5238

Algerius.5238

High quality post, I hope they read this.

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Posted by: MarkSG.8109

MarkSG.8109

Very well put and well done. I have been 100% WvW for years now and I haven’t been in WvW for much more than a hour since the expansion and I have tried. The changes to WvW have pretty much taken away all the enjoyment I had when being a scout. I miss the old WvW days.

Mollori

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Posted by: Gerby.6219

Gerby.6219

Like everyone has mentioned, everything is on point +1 to OP. Another thing Anet could add on top of everything the OP has recommended is a way to incentivize players on the server. I can only speak from experience but in the past there used to be a WANT to defend an upgraded structure, whether it be hills, bay, garri or even an upgraded north/home camp. Even before HoT release, as a returning player that sense of wanting to help defend your home BL or an upgraded structure on any map was still lost. There are still those few that defend day in and day out, not trying to discredit them however there once was a time when everyone would give a kitten and all of a sudden start flooding onto the map when a call was made for help! Both pre and post HoT, with the addition to the new maps there is still little to no reason for me as a single player to hop onto a map and help (aside from server pride which is long gone due to lack Dev love for WvW). All it’s become is wanting a map that is accustomed to large scale fights, which I’m also totally for but what people also tend to forget is that some of the best fights were also from defending those precious keeps, towers and camps and not wanting a rival/opposing server to take it! Please dont mistake this for a “Buff loot drop” post because it’s not. As for ways to resolve this issue, I’m still at a loss myself.

TLDR No love for WvW from Anet

Hm

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Posted by: Grendels Mother.5713

Grendels Mother.5713

At the suggestion of PariahX.6970 I have duplicated this post on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3sawej/some_suggestions_for_improving_wvw_since_hot/
Per Diku.2546 feel free to use as you wish.

(edited by Grendels Mother.5713)

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Posted by: Gaab.4257

Gaab.4257

Big +1 on this post, now we only need someone from Anet to read it and do something..

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Posted by: Sakara Prime.5370

Sakara Prime.5370

BUMP

Great post.

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Posted by: Jaidy.1824

Jaidy.1824

Thank you for this post, now hope its get much needed attention.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Excellent suggestions and analysis by the OP. I really hope Arenanet developers read this.

Few things to add:
1. The various pve events, like the shrines merely add complexity to the already complex game mode. This is very bad for beginners and often feel like a chore also for the veteran players. Another problem is that the some of them are actually overpowered e.g. the fire shrine gives ability to turn into fiery hound, which does massive damage. You can travel in that form outside the fire keep as well. The swim in lava seems bugged as it doesn’t affect pet.

Just remove the shrine functionalities and maybe offer some pve-related rewards if some players choose to do them.

2. The keeps, towers and the entire map are simply too large. Previously we used to have 1 scout per keep, sometimes 1 scout hopping between 1-3 keeps in one border. Even a EU tier 1 could not afford more scouts at many time slots. Now it is even a chore to run around the keep e.g. getting from the main outer gate to lord room simply takes too long time. I suggest overall 25% shrink to every X, Y, Z coordinate of the map (of course that would need some manual fine tuning).

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

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Posted by: BrickFurious.7169

BrickFurious.7169

Thank you OP for a high-quality, well thought-out post. A diamond in the rough indeed. I have hope for this forum yet.

I have some thoughts on your recommendations:

Recommendation 1

All four towers on the DB map have limited strategic value. In particular the north east (NE) and north west (NW) towers have no effect on game play apart from their contribution to PPT.

I get the sense that this was a particular design decision on Anet’s part. As you noted, in the old BL you could treb bay from the SW tower, but you couldn’t treb hills from the SE tower. Trying to make it so that each keep was treb-able from each tower may have been too much of a hindrance on the design of the new map (especially since they were aiming for verticality).

That said, in theory the towers in the new BL do have some strategic value, I just think there needs to be some tweaks to make it work. In particular, each tower has associated side walls that block off paths through the map for everyone except the owners of the tower. Right now though those side walls are “barricades”; they don’t seem to upgrade along with the tower, they are exceptionally weak, and, well, they’re plain ugly. There needs to be some tweaks so that this “path-blocking” aspect of towers actually feels meaningful.

In addition, the northern towers, for instance, in theory act as a major hindrance limiting the ability for enemy groups to attack the north supply camp and supply lines. But this doesn’t feel very meaningful, not only because the path blocking doesn’t seem meaningful, but also because supply management in general doesn’t feel very meaningful. You’ve addressed this in your recommendation 4, which I have my own thoughts on, but on which I completely agree with the sentiment: supply management has lost its strategic value. Re-introducing that value through tweaks to the upgrade system would go a long way toward making the northern towers feel more valuable all on its own.

That said, your outposts idea is very interesting. I’ve never been a big fan of being able to hide a treb inside an objective with walls and gates (especially if it is difficult to counter-treb), but perhaps if the outposts were placed in a way that players with ranged attacks could still hit the trebs in the outposts, I could be on board with that.

Recommendation 2
To this end, waypoints need to be instated in the Fire and Air keeps and removed from the southern towers.

As long as waypoints were no longer automatic for ownership (only earned though upgrading the keeps to T3) I’d be on board with this. That said, I’d be more in favor of just changing waypoints to be no longer automatic first, and keep the waypoints where they are for now and see what happens. While they’re at it, make it so one enemy can’t troll a structure and contest a waypoint just by killing a few guards.

Recommendation 3

Remove the Oasis Event (OE) from the centre of the DB map. The effect of this event which spawns every 3 hours is to enable the more organised (and usually larger) force to severely weaken all enemy owned objectives. The old breakout event favored that server being at a disadvantage, which is how these events should work. Events such as the OE only foster an easy win and wxp/karma orientation; which diminishes any strategy and tactical approaches to WvW game play.

I think the oasis event deserves a little more time. In theory it could definitely problematic as you describe. But right now there hasn’t been any time to develop a meta strategy around it. If only one server is completing it on an empty map, well they were just gonna ktrain that map anyway; with T3 gates being a thing now, this just helps that process be less cumbersome. If indeed there are multiple servers contesting the event though, a viable strategy could be to ignore the event and go after the more populated server’s objectives. There’s definitely a trade-off to a populated server devoting significant player resources to the event, which could prompt some interesting strategic play. There just hasn’t been enough player activity lately to say for sure whether the interesting theoretical strategy outweighs the theoretical problematic aspects of it. Plus apparently the event has been super laggy, that doesn’t help.

Recommendation 4

Return all upgrades to be manually driven and supply based as in the AB map.

Supply-driven upgrades were problematic though. It made it very possible for players to troll the supply, wasting a lot of it on the “wrong” upgrade, or wasting supply that would have been better used for siege or made available for repairing walls/gates. I also really like now that upgrades don’t cost gold. It’s hard to make gold as a WvW player; even though this did increase player investment in objectives somewhat, it still felt like a very punishing mechanic. I feel like there has to be a better way of getting players to feel invested in a structure than just making them sink gold into it.

That said I could definitely be on board with more player interaction in order to progress the upgrades. And I’d be really, really, really in favor of making yaks/supply line management mandatory again, and not just optional as a way of speeding up upgrades.

Recommendation 5

Restructure the upgrades. The upgrade paths introduced with HoT are over simplified and offer no opportunity for choice to effect the outcome.

While I agree that this limits player choice in upgrading, it also limits the ability for players to troll upgrades. It became quickly apparent that there was an optimal upgrade path in WvW pre-HoT; it’s hard to design any upgrade system involving choice that won’t devolve to a meta strategy. Might as well just make the meta strategy the only choice and allow player decision making to focus more on fights and objective defense/capture.

Guild Halls through the War Room and associated WvW upgrades can have the effect of alienating the smaller guilds and frustrating the larger guilds….

Completely agree with all of your points regarding guild halls and the war room. I don’t feel like this mechanic was implemented well, and is a severe gate for not only smaller WvW guilds, but larger ones too. It seems like a significant amount of the new map was balanced around these guild upgrades, but I haven’t seen any of them in use yet because they are so time-consuming/expensive to acquire for your average poor WvW guild.

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Posted by: Jocksy.3415

Jocksy.3415

All great, imho, except for 4 and somewhat 5.
1. Before changing the way upgrades are ordered, I would just change how they are gotten. I mean that dolly and camp should be required and that time should play no role.

2. Money, badges, whatever, they have to be earned, or gotten through the community. I used to send gold to scout, because scouting is something I cannot do, but their work is awesome.
I can’t send badges… it would just be back to “always the same contribute”. So I do not believe it should be paid. Might be ordered, but not earned.

3. I don’t mind the current block upgrades, but I wouldn’t mind a six-tier approach.

For the little I played, the upgrading choice is not the main problem. Automatic and relatively fast upgrades with no camps needed is.
Take that off, then we can see if the upgrading scheme needs changing…

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Posted by: styx.7294

styx.7294

This is great.

I will just add that I think removing the gold cost for upgrades was correct (though making them automatic is not correct). It’s already an investment in time and energy to upgrade without gold costs. Gold costs only were felt by a very small group of players and it was burdensome on them. You could easily sink dozens of gold inside a day by being a very vigilant player and punishing very vigilant players is not what we want to do.

Gate of Madness

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Posted by: Yougottawanna.7420

Yougottawanna.7420

OP made a very good post, good work, I agree with most of it. I do have some issues though.

First is that I don’t think upgrades should cost anything. I don’t think they should be automatic but they shouldn’t cost gold either. I actually think Anet is relatively close to a good upgrade system – they should just increase the amount of time it takes to upgrade but ALSO increase the amount of time getting a yak in decreases the timer. Right now yaks are frankly kind of irrelevant. So using the same system but changing the timers could result in a good mechanic.

Second, I see having a player limit on waypoint use as leading to all sorts of potential problems. Guild groups getting split up is the most obvious one. I think the waypoint player limit fixes a problem that isn’t really a problem. When I’ve run havoc groups and I can make a big blob port in to respond to my 5-8 or however many people, I consider it a victory because a few of us occupied many of the enemy, meaning that my allies elsewhere and on other maps have more breathing room.

Third, and this isn’t really a criticism of your proposal but more a comment on WvW as a whole. WvW’s primary problems are not directly related to map mechanics. IMO WvW’s primary problem is that it basically is not actually a competitive game mode, because the outcomes of matches are determined primarily by coverage imbalances. No map mechanics can be a true solution to that problem.

To give an example, your idea for outposts is a good one. But I’ve never once on the new borderlands maps had to use a treb on anything (with the exception of defensive gate trebs), because there’s never been sufficient defense or siege to justify using a treb over a ram or cata. Right now WvW’s population is just not high enough to fill these maps (and more worryingly I’m not sure Anet’s servers can even handle the number of players it would take to make them play properly).

I can see potential in the desert borderlands maps if they make some changes AND the maps are full. But I don’t see how we’re going to fill them with the current server system.

To the extent that I believe Anet is serious about focusing on WvW once the expansion stuff is settled, I hope they’re looking at solutions for coverage imbalances first. As I see it, no attempt to use game mechanics to dilute the advantage you get from superior coverage has ever been successful.

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

Simply increase the range on trebs. No map/objective changes needed.

See https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/It-isn-t-the-total-size-it-is-the-spacing/first#post5707674

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Diku.2546

Diku.2546

At the suggestion of PariahX.6970 I have duplicated this post on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3sawej/some_suggestions_for_improving_wvw_since_hot/
Per Diku.2546 feel free to use as you wish.

Thank you…

+1

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

d) objectives with no strategic meaning lowering the maps offensive and defensive value

What does that mean precisely?

I assume you have locations in mind, but which ones? How did you determine their strategic value?

Read “Recommendation 1” I think that answers this question.

Okay, I see what you meant now. I am not entirely certain I agree, but I get your logic there now.

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

As others have pointed out, I think the auto upgrade system is a catch 22. On o e hand, players claim they hate it. On the other hand, they hated siege and supply trolls, and this was designed to prevent that. So do we prefer the option we have now, or the easy to troll option that we know happens as well, and was strongly demanded to have changes to prevent?

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

(edited by coglin.1867)

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

All good suggestions except I’m unsure whether 4 is a good idea. Just re-introduce manual choice and interaction into the process without any cost to players.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

The more I read threads complaining about the new borderland, the more funny in an ironic sort of way it gets. Anet should just stop listening to players because clearly the new map does some things that attentive readers remember players asking for, such as breaking up zergs, encouraging fights in open field, and an end to upgrade costs.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: erKo.9586

erKo.9586

Bring the old maps back and all problems are solved.

[WvW] Thanks Anet for listening to your players during 2016.
Far Shiverpeaks – EU – Since release.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

The more I read threads complaining about the new borderland, the more funny in an ironic sort of way it gets. Anet should just stop listening to players because clearly the new map does some things that attentive readers remember players asking for, such as breaking up zergs, encouraging fights in open field, and an end to upgrade costs.

It hasn’t done either of those thing in T1. As has been mentioned before the multiple paths make it very easy for groups to bypass one another.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

The more I read threads complaining about the new borderland, the more funny in an ironic sort of way it gets. Anet should just stop listening to players because clearly the new map does some things that attentive readers remember players asking for, such as breaking up zergs, encouraging fights in open field, and an end to upgrade costs.

It hasn’t done either of those thing in T1. As has been mentioned before the multiple paths make it very easy for groups to bypass one another.

I played many hours Sunday and Monday night (I am in T1 myself) and my experience is different then your. After a large fight on the event in the middle, we had to set trebs and rams out to attack the walls. Thier options were let us get the walls down or come out and fight. Where as before, we could bunker in a keep in safety while doing those siege attacks. Which offers both sides to bunker, or one or the other to bunker while trebing. This options offers a better value in drawing both sides out into the open . Both in the event, and the siege attacking.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Before I say anything else, let me acknowledge that I really appreciate a constructive post on what ails WvW. It just so happens that I disagree with most of it.

Recommendation 1 – Outposts

You’re right that the towers no longer directly threaten the keeps, but I disagree that this is a problem. When towers could be used as trebbing platforms, they provided spaces to put nigh uncounterable siege that took ages to do anything about. Rather than encouraging objective control, they made it impossible to defend the outer walls against an equal force.

I do agree that towers need to have some strategic significance, but it should be elsewhere. If the barricades upgraded with the tower, like someone suggested in this thread, they could function as very effective barriers. It would also help if there were barriers on both sides of the tower so that groups could not access the northern map without breaking a barrier or controlling a tower. The benefits are obvious—enemies are funneled into very few paths unless they break a barricade and, thus, give up the element of surprise.

Finally, once guild upgrades start rolling in, towers will serve as large sentries. This alone is hugely important. Repelling an attack is much, much easier if you’re waiting for the zerg when it rolls up to your keep.

Recommendation 2 – Waypoints

Waypoints present a huge get-out-of-jail-free card as you can instantly move an army into a structure. Given how long it takes to get in, this guarantees that the attackers will have to contend with as big a force as finds it convenient to WP in when they get the chance. They don’t even have to be on the same map and they can still show up to defend in time. In addition, as they allowed defenders to reach every point on their home BL in less than a minute, there wasn’t much room for invaders to get anything done.

Now, the difference between a server that has seen a lot of action on its BL and one that hasn’t is not as great. Before, if one server had WPs and the other didn’t, it was always a better idea (for PPT) to keep whacking the one without WPs for relatively easy points. Chances of success were much higher and it ensured that they would remain easy pickings. Also, the weakened server could not realistically apply pressure through a counter invasion because of the huge difference in mobility.

Since the only WPs in those keeps will be through guild upgrades and will have a large CD, it will now be possible to threaten a BL even if it has been untouched for days. Hitting it once won’t be enough, probably, but actually laying siege to it will be rewarded. Thus, we have less snowballing in terms of mobility and ease of defense—which translates to less snowballing in terms of score.

Recommendation 3 – Oasis

I agree that the Oasis event is problematic. It most often is won by a landslide, perhaps because there’s no reward for second place. Rather than removing it, though, I propose we refine it.

The total number of cores should be static: each time a core is turned in, by any team, it counts towards the maximum. The laser should hit all structures and damage done should be based on the number of cores turned in by that server. In this way, a small team can mitigate the damage caused by the laser even if they can’t win the event outright.

Additionally, the lasers should hit only the gates, not the walls nearby or the oil’s above.

We should also note that whoever owns Rampart spawns much, much closer than anyone else, which is usually a homefield advantage.

Upgrade System

Recommendation 4 – Manual Upgrades with Hybrid Cost

Having any sort of price for the upgrades is going to make them few and far between, as in the past. It is especially cruel to demand a price of scouts as they see even fewer rewards than the average WvW player.

Manual upgrades are also fairly unnecessary. The reason they were consolidated was to make it possible to defend a tower/keep earlier on. Before, a paper objective was often given up as a loss. With the consolidation, there’s no reason to have a player start the upgrade since there’s only one choice. It would be nice to have player investment, but this is not the place to find it.

Finally, making upgrades compete for supply felt awful. It made the process take much longer since obligatory thrown siege would eat up most of the supply unless run from camps…but that was dangerous is as the left the structure unscouted and the player could run into roamers. Not to mention, it was too slow.

Right now, assuming 2 yaks get in every ~4 minutes, It takes 10 minutes for a structure to get cannons/oils. That means that none of the four yaks were sniped. If they are, it takes 30 minutes. For reinforced walls/gates, it would take 2 hours with no yaks and ~40 minutes with them. Fortified takes 6 hours with no yaks and 2 hours with them. That means that roamers can make upgrades take 3 times as long—That seems like ample involvement. At the same time, ensuring those yaks get in has a tangible benefit for the defending team. Thus, I cannot accept the argument to go back to supply with ‘giving roamers something to do’ as a basis.

Recommendation 5 – New Upgrade Paths

I’m rather indifferent to this. I prefer the fully consolidated upgrades, though.

Recommendation 6 – Guild Upgrades

The old upgrades were all temporary. While they are no longer available, that doesn’t amount to taking away paid content. It can be argued that any queued upgrades should be able to be used, but that’s only 12 hours of missing time. This patch removed the old upgrades entirely (like any balance patch) and added new upgrades in their place.

It’s rough right now, but ultimately the new upgrades will give much more power. In addition, since +5 isn’t guaranteed, it encourages the formation of guilds—which are the lifeblood of WvW. Understandably, lone wolves with shell guilds are upset, but since +5 will now be a permanent upgrade we should see as much of it or more as we did when they could still prop it up artificially. Just, it will be the work of a guild. They could even join a guild and just turn off the chat it they want the perks without the rest.

Finally, while guild halls are HoT gated, only the leader actually needs to have HoT. Once the hall is up, all members can visit and contribute. Thus, I would not say that it is problematic.

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Posted by: Expunge.4926

Expunge.4926

the waypoint limitation idea seems way too easily griefed by spies/trolls and really doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. other than that i would be happy with all of these ideas being implemented.

maybe the center event could be changed to be significantly easier to complete and deal damage or temporarily disable siege instead of killing gates. this would at least reduce the effectiveness of turtling.

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Posted by: Fellfoot.8156

Fellfoot.8156

Those ugly barricades someone mentioned mean nothing. You can jump over them.

As for the oasis… isn’t an oasis supposed to be a place of refuge in a desert? Currently it isn’t anything of the sort.

[AIR] Henge of Denravi aka Pink Abu, [BAMA] RollTide
chopping wood one day, dropped a piece,
all I could say was, “…fell…foot…”

(edited by Fellfoot.8156)

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

Those barricades were walls in the beta. They were changed to player-breakable barricades thankfully. Two sets of the barricades were also removed.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

The more I read threads complaining about the new borderland, the more funny in an ironic sort of way it gets. Anet should just stop listening to players because clearly the new map does some things that attentive readers remember players asking for, such as breaking up zergs, encouraging fights in open field, and an end to upgrade costs.

It hasn’t done either of those thing in T1. As has been mentioned before the multiple paths make it very easy for groups to bypass one another.

I played many hours Sunday and Monday night (I am in T1 myself) and my experience is different then your. After a large fight on the event in the middle, we had to set trebs and rams out to attack the walls. Thier options were let us get the walls down or come out and fight. Where as before, we could bunker in a keep in safety while doing those siege attacks. Which offers both sides to bunker, or one or the other to bunker while trebing. This options offers a better value in drawing both sides out into the open . Both in the event, and the siege attacking.

I’m on JQBL same as you but play during ocx. In your example yes you literally have an open field fight but as a replacement for 1 that would occur at NE or NW tower on Alpine BL. Except now the strategic importance of NE or NW as an objective is gone.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Fellfoot.8156

Fellfoot.8156

Those barricades were walls in the beta. They were changed to player-breakable barricades thankfully. Two sets of the barricades were also removed.

Ahh, so the WvW betas weren’t a total loss then. Thank goodness!

[AIR] Henge of Denravi aka Pink Abu, [BAMA] RollTide
chopping wood one day, dropped a piece,
all I could say was, “…fell…foot…”

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Posted by: Sich.7103

Sich.7103

I see some people speaking about troll supply or troll upgrade….
But I didn’t see that very often…. Yes we see it sometimes…. But not everytime….
The way to fight troll supply is not to remove the need of supply, but to ban those account ! At least from WvW… The real solution is that anet give tools to kick out from WvW those players…
Maybe remove server and make something like guild alliance… Then if someone is a spy or a troll you can kick this guy out… Or maybe anet should start to ban those player who are reported for that…

The supply troll was the problem, not the upgrade and supply system !

It’s like in real life… Oh kitten , this guy use a knife to kill someone… Ok, just remove all the knife from the world…

And most of the bad upgrade started that I have see, was from people who don’t know what they are doing…. Then someone else speak about giving the ability to start upgrade behind wvw ability… Like now with the guild upgrade (supply camp / tower / keep).
Then only people who want to do that will place point in this… And you need to play some hours in WvW to be able to do that….

I have spend many hours on my server to explain to new people how to manage upgrade, and that help a lot…

Yes we asked for solution against supply troll (not me but lot of people have), but they have kill all the system… This is not the good answer…

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

I think the point was to prevent players from free trebing from the safety of keeps. At least that was a complaint often laid forward about the old BLs. I got the impression, the idea there was to for e people out of keeps in order to siege another keep. Thus creating more organic open field fights.

The more I read threads complaining about the new borderland, the more funny in an ironic sort of way it gets. Anet should just stop listening to players because clearly the new map does some things that attentive readers remember players asking for, such as breaking up zergs, encouraging fights in open field, and an end to upgrade costs.

It hasn’t done either of those thing in T1. As has been mentioned before the multiple paths make it very easy for groups to bypass one another.

I played many hours Sunday and Monday night (I am in T1 myself) and my experience is different then your. After a large fight on the event in the middle, we had to set trebs and rams out to attack the walls. Thier options were let us get the walls down or come out and fight. Where as before, we could bunker in a keep in safety while doing those siege attacks. Which offers both sides to bunker, or one or the other to bunker while trebing. This options offers a better value in drawing both sides out into the open . Both in the event, and the siege attacking.

I’m on JQBL same as you but play during ocx. In your example yes you literally have an open field fight but as a replacement for 1 that would occur at NE or NW tower on Alpine BL. Except now the strategic importance of NE or NW as an objective is gone.

It isn’t an open field fight if it is at a keep. Because one side is fighting from behind walls. That was the point I was trying to make.

I play during your schedule at least half the time, because I am on a swing shift schedule.

I do not see how the tower is relentless different in time zone references. As a rule of thumb, the other servers have less players in off peak hours as well.

@Sich
troll supply use doesn’t specifically break rules that allow for banning. The issue is that changes of this nature were demanded in many post, in many threads, for that reason. The provlem is That so many changes we got with HoT were strongly demanded in the past. Yet now everyone decides to talk about them as bad ideas after they are implemented. My question now, is why we’re folks not arguing againstst these ideas when they were presented and repeatedly cclamored for in the first place.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

(edited by coglin.1867)

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Posted by: Bond.4602

Bond.4602

I do wonder if the problem is slightly deeper than changing the placement of a few waypoints. (I don’t say this to belittle your post because I think there are some very good points made in a constructive manner)

From my experience the pirateship is ruling at the moment, far more than it ever has. Basically on entering into the fights, more than ever, it appears to be the team with the most players wins. This has not always been the case and there was a time when experienced and a well played outnumbered team would prevail.

For me there is a more underlying issue with the removal of defensive stats from the traits making builds more glassy, the amount of damage and lack of defence that seems to be the meta at present. Basically the nerfs and buffs recently. This is making skilled play and pushing larger forces impossible making for rather stagnant ranged fights.

I think potentially the balance of the game needs to be looked at, however, how you do this without people playing I don’t know.

I may have this wrong but from my experience this along with the above issues with the borderland maps is part of the decline in player numbers.

Skirr
37 WvW kills, R2 PvP and no legendary