Guild Wars 2

I feel like not enough is being said about the impact of the new spirit shards on superior siege crafting. Whereas before there was a guaranteed way of obtaining skill points for crafting them, it’s now largely down to RNG. Yes, you get 3 spirit shards for completing your dailies but you could easily use up the 21 shards you get in a week sieging up a keep once.

What are people’s thoughts on this? Are regular siegers and defenders annoyed?

From Anet’s perspective, is this a deliberate move to, for instance, lessen the prevelance of superior siege in WvW? Or a factor that they didn’t consider when implementing these changes? Or will the drop rate of spirit shards be common enough for the changes not to make much of an impact?

Yes, building superior siege as it was already a problem, and I see this as potentially making it worse unless they ensure that we receive more shards than we did skill points. Honestly we should be able to get superior siege with WvW badges, as anything used in wvw should be obtainable from playing in wvw alone.

Flip towers and keeps. Champ bags give more than plenty of skillpoints /shards.

Malediktus.3740:

Flip towers and keeps. Champ bags give more than plenty of skillpoints /shards.

Not when you go through 200+ superior flame rams a raid .. LOL

Thats why you have a zerg who donates blueprints to you. The commander isnt supposed to make them all by himself

I’d heard they drop from random enemies too, rather than just champion bags? It’d be nice to be able to get them from fights rather than PvD and the subsequent mad dash to tag the lord.

lil devils x.6071:

Honestly we should be able to get superior siege with WvW badges, as anything used in wvw should be obtainable from playing in wvw alone.

+1234567890. At least it’d be a reliable source too, rather than depending on RNG.

@Malediktus Have you had plenty of drops or are you going off what Anet said?

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

Mot anoyed that they added question do you want to buy crafing book, so you get 1 more click for every book you buy.

Sup siege should be possible by upgrading normal ones. With badges or with other means I dont care much.

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

How I would do it:

> New Recipe(s) for Artificer
5-10 T5 wood (depends on siege-type)
5-10 T5 metal (depends on siege-type)
1-5 T5 fine crafting materials (choose the currently cheaper ones, to push their price on the TP)
1-5 Siege blueprints (depends on siege-types)

There you go, the artificer is now able to craft high amounts of siege, for roughly the same price, with just a few clicks, without any artificial cap.
Since all resources are available on the TP, it’s a players choice if he rather spends silver or honor badges on his blueprints.
This courages using superior siege, eases the constraints on a commanders purse or clicking-fingers, and will make the lifes of those who supply the TP with siege a lot easier, while also increasing the amount of silver that T5 farming can earn you.
And it makes sense lorewise in light of the upcoming changes as well, since the new profession, the “scribe”, will be able to craft guild-siege anyways.

Superior siege is overpowered and should be harder to get if I think about it. Makes commanders think twice if they waste guild catas and superior rams for everything even if there is barely any defenders.

Malediktus.9250:

Superior siege is overpowered and should be harder to get if I think about it. Makes commanders think twice if they waste guild catas and superior rams for everything even if there is barely any defenders.

Rather normal siege is underpowered. You could not stop a zerg of ambient creatures with normal ac.

aspirine.6852:

Malediktus.9250:

Superior siege is overpowered and should be harder to get if I think about it. Makes commanders think twice if they waste guild catas and superior rams for everything even if there is barely any defenders.

Rather normal siege is underpowered. You could not stop a zerg of ambient creatures with normal ac.

You can. You just need slightly more. 3 normal arrow carts are as strong as 2 superior. Same with any other siege except omega golems which just have ranged attacks and more health.

I think superior siege was to common. Regular siege was all but completely phased out, atleast for the more than puglord organized groups. And even pug commanders often sieged with superior.

Either superior siege is special, and it should be harder to get and a resource you don’t dedicate lightly.
Or if it’s so essential, it should be baseline. Why stack up the costs unnecesarily for a gamemode thats always been more strapped for cash?

Arantheal.7396:

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

How I would do it:

> New Recipe(s) for Artificer
5-10 T5 wood (depends on siege-type)
5-10 T5 metal (depends on siege-type)
1-5 T5 fine crafting materials (choose the currently cheaper ones, to push their price on the TP)
1-5 Siege blueprints (depends on siege-types)

There you go, the artificer is now able to craft high amounts of siege, for roughly the same price, with just a few clicks, without any artificial cap.
Since all resources are available on the TP, it’s a players choice if he rather spends silver or honor badges on his blueprints.
This courages using superior siege, eases the constraints on a commanders purse or clicking-fingers, and will make the lifes of those who supply the TP with siege a lot easier, while also increasing the amount of silver that T5 farming can earn you.
And it makes sense lorewise in light of the upcoming changes as well, since the new profession, the “scribe”, will be able to craft guild-siege anyways.

So you want to push t5s as a substitute for shards? Sounds interesting, this game should really reduce the risk of RSI more, honestly.

ArchonWing.9480:

Arantheal.7396:

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

How I would do it:

> New Recipe(s) for Artificer
5-10 T5 wood (depends on siege-type)
5-10 T5 metal (depends on siege-type)
1-5 T5 fine crafting materials (choose the currently cheaper ones, to push their price on the TP)
1-5 Siege blueprints (depends on siege-types)

There you go, the artificer is now able to craft high amounts of siege, for roughly the same price, with just a few clicks, without any artificial cap.
Since all resources are available on the TP, it’s a players choice if he rather spends silver or honor badges on his blueprints.
This courages using superior siege, eases the constraints on a commanders purse or clicking-fingers, and will make the lifes of those who supply the TP with siege a lot easier, while also increasing the amount of silver that T5 farming can earn you.
And it makes sense lorewise in light of the upcoming changes as well, since the new profession, the “scribe”, will be able to craft guild-siege anyways.

So you want to push t5s as a substitute for shards? Sounds interesting, this game should really reduce the risk of RSI more, honestly.

Exactly.
Shards should be used to craft stuff that have high prestige, special effects or simply exist to entertain (box of fun anyone?).
Superior Siege on the other hand is a commonly used “resource” for WvW, in fact it’s its life-blood. Be it Omegas to storm T3 keeps, superior AC’s to defend it or rams for quick-cappin’ a t2 – or lower – tower. Without easily available Superior Siege WvW will start to stagnate, leading to even more deserted Servers, hence to more stale match-ups.
Making one of the Core resources for Superior Siege only available via RNG just worsens the Situation for everybody.
Be it the crafter who runs out of Shards eventually, therefore sells high, the Commander who has to wait for his placed orders for ages or has to replace them even (and spend extra-silver) due to rising prices, the trader who suffers from rising prices as well as commanders, and therefore will sell higher and higher, and at the end of the chain the pugs, who will see less and less commanders because they simply cant be asked to pay for this grind anymore.

Yes, guilds will keep themselves above the water, but when all the pug-scouts, havoc groups and roamers disappear one after another they will eventually run out of defenders and suddenly find themselves on board of a sinking ship.

Ofc I’m over-exaggerating and speculating pretty hard here, but one thing is for sure:
More RNG means rising prices, which everybody will feel in their purse…

Malediktus.9250:

Superior siege is overpowered and should be harder to get if I think about it. Makes commanders think twice if they waste guild catas and superior rams for everything even if there is barely any defenders.

I disagree with this notion. This would increase the gap between haves and have nots because it would not affect the people with lots of resources to acquire it anyways. Just look at Guild catapults, for example; my guild isn’t even dedicated to wvw but we can pull out a bunch on demand. As for pugmanders, they reap so much from trains and loyal followers donations that it would barely make a dent.

If it’s truly that overpowered, it should just be flat out nerfed. No point in beating around the bush.

In any case, there’s no point in punishing the common joe who wants to just make a few dozen for their own use.

So let me ask the question, what is the point and use for regular siege, if superior siege is barely more expensive to use, but 50% better (in terms of damage per siege slot, health points are the same)? Wouldnt it make sense to make superior baseline then, but make a new superior which is better, but much more expensive than now?
It feels a bit redundant to have superior siege, if you do not have to think about wether normal or superior siege is the way to go.
Currently I see plenty of commanders using superior siege for even unupgraded structures, just because they are not really expensive in the grand sheme of things.

Regular siege costs less supply! This is quite useful when you only have like 2-3 people and not everyone has supply capacity maxed. I would never toss a superior in those cases unless it’s one of those rare "every point matters’ matchups which is rare.

Not to mention those situations where say, the outer keep gate is half down and building a superior would be overkill, and you have to break in inner.

Maybe the mentality is different on our server because we are zerg heavy, but its actually a rarity to see normal siege being used here. Of course in a zerg supply is rarely a problem unless you walked through some supply draining cows.
Only in edge of the mists I see the vast majority in regular siege used.

That is correct. Organized zergs generally don’t have to peddle their supply that carefully, but it does exist. On my server, some pugs aren’t even grabbing supply so it gets a bit more annoying. In EOTM, people just concern themselves with making gold, so superior siege would be used at a loss.

But a few small groups threatening towers is still useful.

ArchonWing.9480:

Regular siege costs less supply! This is quite useful when you only have like 2-3 people and not everyone has supply capacity maxed. I would never toss a superior in those cases unless it’s one of those rare "every point matters’ matchups which is rare.

Not to mention those situations where say, the outer keep gate is half down and building a superior would be overkill, and you have to break in inner.

This is honestly the best option. Regular siege costs too much for its much lower effectiveness. I know we tend to shut it out as its not true WvW, but commanders in Eotm use siege also, and unlike guilds and pugmanders, don’t get a good supply of donations of superior or guild siege, thus they have to use regular. As someone who likes to command in Eotm for fun when i’m not WvWing, using regular siege is a pain, especially when I’m trying to pull together a zerg on overflow.

Yes, ArenaNet needs to fix this. There are many annoying things with superior siege going on.

1. The confirmation dialog when you try to buy Siege Masters Guide is completely unnecessary.

2. Why can’t I buy Siege Masters Guides in bulk? 1/10/100?

3. 1 spirit shard for 1 Siege Masters Guide is absurd now. If you’re going to insist on making them available ONLY via spirit shards then a better ratio would be 1:5 or 1:10 shard:guides. The better answer as said above is to also make them available for Badges of Honor.

4. For god’s sake the Mystic Forge is the WRONG PLACE for upgrading siege!! I should not have to click five times to make a single piece of siege, when I normally go to make 100+ items at a time. The Mystic Forge is just a terrible, awful, no good, very bad UX for making ANYTHING, let alone something that I use a lot of on a regular basis.

Ever since this thread was started, I have picked up one spirit shard as a drop, and they seem pretty scarce from champ bags. Mostly been getting them from dailies.

Because you don’t get them for leveling up as with skill points unless you use a tome with a level 80, it would seem a lot harder to make siege.

I haven’t made siege en masse for a long while because the mystic forge interface is too annoying, but I think if I were to make say, 10 a day, I would be having trouble in about 2 months from now. I have 690 atm.

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

Do away with the paper seige and let superior take its place on the vendor for the same price since the reward is so little in WvW.

That would be my suggestion…and I do agree with you on this one :P

Added Note: Even when I was in my most noobish gear starting out in WvW the paper seige really just kind of tickled and wasn’t really effective as it should have been.

Another solution would be to do away with superior seige and bring the paper stuff up to superior standards and leaving it on the vendors.

Kamara.4187:

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

Do away with the paper seige and let superior take its place on the vendor for the same price since the reward is so little in WvW.

That would be my suggestion…and I do agree with you on this one :P

Added Note: Even when I was in my most noobish gear starting out in WvW the paper seige really just kind of tickled and wasn’t really effective as it should have been.

Another solution would be to do away with superior seige and bring the paper stuff up to superior standards and leaving it on the vendors.

+100

Simplify, simplify, simplify. This solution seems the best one.

robotempire.2451:

Kamara.4187:

ArchonWing.9480:

It is my honest opinion that the current process of producing superior siege is outdated, especially taking in the new system in context. You have to create them ONE at a time; of which it is pretty absurd. So it is my unfortunate assessment that wvw was not taken into account.

What would be some reasonable ways to tackle this?

To compensate for the harder to obtain shards, would it be reasonable to change the pricing, to say 1 shard for 2-3 guides, sell for badges, or allow it be possible to craft them— perhaps we could get some wvw specific crafting siege materials.

Do away with the paper seige and let superior take its place on the vendor for the same price since the reward is so little in WvW.

That would be my suggestion…and I do agree with you on this one :P

Added Note: Even when I was in my most noobish gear starting out in WvW the paper seige really just kind of tickled and wasn’t really effective as it should have been.

Another solution would be to do away with superior seige and bring the paper stuff up to superior standards and leaving it on the vendors.

+100

Simplify, simplify, simplify. This solution seems the best one.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

I came back because I wanted to add that targeting poor (most) WvW players for the material and credit sink for making siege is a huge negative to WvW in general.

WvW players are usually very dedicated to staying on the map and expecting them to leave the map to farm materials or gold so they can craft siege is a negative to WvW teams and players. Anet got their money when everyone bought the game so creating obstacles that try to force ppl to buy gems instead is nothing short of gouging players by design. Please stop. At least where WvW is concerned.