Guild Wars 2

Just had an interesting conversation. “I would come back to Guild Wars 2 in a heartbeat if they reverted stability”

This is from a primarily WvW player. Everyone else that talked about it agreed. This is about 10 people, so it’s not a huge sample, but I think it’d do a lot to revitalize the community.

I would not say they should revert it, I would say they should further develop it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Breakbar-for-WvW-Player

Personally I am just in favor of adding a 1s icd to broken stability so that 2 stacks over 5s offer at least 2s stability, 6 stacks over 4s would be at least 4s stability etc. You wouldnt even need skills with stacks higher than duration anymore.

Boon rip would of course still rip the full stack.

Hammer Train meta is more fun than Pirate Ship meta. I am not sure there is a middle ground but I do know the current meta is boring as hell. Revert Stability changes +1

Again, I’m for an upgrade to skills granting stability but not a return to how it was. There was a good reason as to why they changed it that I agree with.

Let’s first try to augment the stacks to reach a sweet spot before, again, going all or nothing on something. There has to be a sweet spot. Sweeter than now and back then at least.

stability as it is = pirateship
reverting stability = hammertrains
adding internal CD on stab stack removal is I think the best middle ground… at leaast 0.5 sec CD

That would mean that I as frontline guard using Stand Your Ground, which should grant me 5 stacks for 5+ seconds (really depends on boon duration) will have 2 seconds of CC immunity in a CC bomb… that is just about right amount for me to react and dodge away, use Shelter or Renewned Focus… think that should make everyone happy…

also for skills that grant 10 stacks such as Dolyak Signet or Armor of Earth will grant about 3-4 CC immunity… and if you say thats too powerful, remember that there are still boon strips which take out entire stack, as well as the fact that these skills (i.e. Dolyak Signet, Armor of Earth) have very long cooldowns, 30-60 seconds at least… and when I use skill that has 1 minute cd, I want it to function, at least for few seconds…

Yea, the best way to view it is that we’ve gone too far in one direction; we can always dial and tweak it back the other way.

Asking about the icd-thought so I get the idea in the community right. One stack of Stability with duration x would be applied by a skill or something else. It would be required to trigger the CC immunity with a stun while that stack of stability is still active. When it is triggered, one stack per CC is “removed” or rather converted to the 0.5/1 sec immunity to CC.

That would basically revert stability back to the old state with the changes that the stacks from Stand your Ground cant be removed/corrupted/whatever at once. Doesn’t sound like a way to the sweet spot at first glance, so please elaborate.

Reverting stab would not result in hammer trains. Hammer train meta was years ago when 80% of your zerg was ptv shout wars/guards spamming 1. GWEN was the meta before anet ruined stab and there was still plenty of ranged damage to go with the frontline. As time progressed, more and more ranged were becoming normal and people were complaining about pirate ships even before the stab patch.

It will never go back to full melee trains because of the power creep of full ascended gear and elite specs. Plus, more people know how good zerker gear is in wvw, and how to not die while wearing it. There’s just a lot more damage being output than there was when wvw was new and we were all noobs. It makes melee far more difficult.

ANYTHING would be better than this awful meta, though. I’d honestly rather play in ptv melee blobs with culling than do the stupid crap we have now.

One of the biggest issues with original stab was that the counter play mechanics completely did not work, mainly, boon strips, boon corruption (conversion to condis).

There were 4 primary reasons boonstrips did not work, even in organized groups. I have been part of the meta on both ends of this playing as a stab focused guard and strip necro and mes.

1. Too many “cover boons” boon stripping did not prioritize stability and in team play boons are generated non-stop. The strip mechanics could only rarely get to the stab.
2. Too few classes had access to effective AOE boon strips at far too long CDs vs stab generating classes/builds. This also contributed to class exclusion within the old GWEN meta.
3. AOE stab was too easy to generate. Between myself + 1 more guard we could keep up non-stop or very close to non-stop stab on total of 3 groups of players. Then add individual stab abilities on top of that.
4. Some builds / classes had way too easy access to stab, such as the ones I tended to play. Bunker Guard with some (not even a lot) + boon duration, traited for stab/boons for example, was way out of hand.

To balance the current stab issues I would not buff stab itself, but rather add more of it to classes which have poor access to it in the first place, then buff individual skills which are rarely used now, some examples: hallowed ground, well of power, rev “brick road”, but there are plenty of other skills as well.

At the same time, I would also take a look at the counter play mechanics, prioritize stab strips and provide more reliable boon strip mechanics, again, to the classes that lack it.

Make all these changes into, or tie them into active abilities, no passives, this way team coordination / skill comes into play thus helping out other issues at the same time.

One of the biggest issues with original stab was that the counter play mechanics completely did not work, mainly, boon strips, boon corruption (conversion to condis).

There were 4 primary reasons boonstrips did not work, even in organized groups. I have been part of the meta on both ends of this playing as a stab focused guard and strip necro and mes.

1. Too many “cover boons” boon stripping did not prioritize stability and in team play boons are generated non-stop. The strip mechanics could only rarely get to the stab.
2. Too few classes had access to effective AOE boon strips at far too long CDs vs stab generating classes/builds. This also contributed to class exclusion within the old GWEN meta.
3. AOE stab was too easy to generate. Between myself + 1 more guard we could keep up non-stop or very close to non-stop stab on total of 3 groups of players. Then add individual stab abilities on top of that.
4. Some builds / classes had way too easy access to stab, such as the ones I tended to play. Bunker Guard with some (not even a lot) + boon duration, traited for stab/boons for example, was way out of hand.

To balance the current stab issues I would not buff stab itself, but rather add more of it to classes which have poor access to it in the first place, then buff individual skills which are rarely used now, some examples: hallowed ground, well of power, rev “brick road”, but there are plenty of other skills as well.

At the same time, I would also take a look at the counter play mechanics, prioritize stab strips and provide more reliable boon strip mechanics, again, to the classes that lack it.

Make all these changes into, or tie them into active abilities, no passives, this way team coordination / skill comes into play thus helping out other issues at the same time.

Arcan Soulstorm.4356:

Asking about the icd-thought so I get the idea in the community right. One stack of Stability with duration x would be applied by a skill or something else. It would be required to trigger the CC immunity with a stun while that stack of stability is still active. When it is triggered, one stack per CC is “removed” or rather converted to the 0.5/1 sec immunity to CC.

That would basically revert stability back to the old state with the changes that the stacks from Stand your Ground cant be removed/corrupted/whatever at once. Doesn’t sound like a way to the sweet spot at first glance, so please elaborate.

I don’t quite follow your explanation here.
It would simply be a cooldown on stab removal. For instance: you use “Stand Your Ground!”, giving you 5 stacks of stability for 5 seconds. The first time you get hit by CC, you lose 1 stack. For the next x seconds (that’s the icd) you will not be able to lose another stack no matter how much CC hits you. After those x seconds have passed, the next CC removes yet another stack.
Once all your stacks are gone, you’re vulnerable (i.e. there’s no lingering immunity after the last stack goes) and it can still be corrupted.

It would be akin to a reversal in the sense that it would guarantee CC immunity for at least [(number of stacks-1) * icd]. However, this duration would be much shorter than the full duration (if 0.5s icd, Stand Your Ground would give you 2s guaranteed stab).

This offers several benefits:
(1) You don’t get your stab insta-stripped by CC bombs like you do right now.
(2) Frontlines are rewarded for avoiding as much CC as possible. The reward is a longer stab duration, allowing a deeper push/easier pull out.
(3) Good stability rotation retains its current awareness requirement while making the margin for error a bit larger. Old stab you could rotate like clockwork, current (and this proposition) require you to pay attention to your party’s stab situation all the time.
(4) CC would require more thought to use. Instead of simply dropping massive CC bombs, you’d need to space it out and run proper CC rotations to get the optimal effect.

Basically, it would strengthen heavy trains and raise the skill ceiling on pirateshipping a bit, while leaving room for both in the meta.

vana.5467:

Arcan Soulstorm.4356:

Asking about the icd-thought so I get the idea in the community right. One stack of Stability with duration x would be applied by a skill or something else. It would be required to trigger the CC immunity with a stun while that stack of stability is still active. When it is triggered, one stack per CC is “removed” or rather converted to the 0.5/1 sec immunity to CC.

That would basically revert stability back to the old state with the changes that the stacks from Stand your Ground cant be removed/corrupted/whatever at once. Doesn’t sound like a way to the sweet spot at first glance, so please elaborate.

I don’t quite follow your explanation here.
It would simply be a cooldown on stab removal. For instance: you use “Stand Your Ground!”, giving you 5 stacks of stability for 5 seconds. The first time you get hit by CC, you lose 1 stack. For the next x seconds (that’s the icd) you will not be able to lose another stack no matter how much CC hits you. After those x seconds have passed, the next CC removes yet another stack.

It would be akin to a reversal in the sense that it would guarantee CC immunity for at least [(number of stacks-1) * icd]. However, this duration would be much shorter than the full duration (if 0.5s icd, Stand Your Ground would give you 2s guaranteed stab).

This offers several benefits:
(1) You don’t get your stab insta-stripped by CC bombs like you do right now.
(2) Frontlines are rewarded for avoiding as much CC as possible. The reward is a longer stab duration, allowing a deeper push/easier pull out.
(3) Good stability rotation retains its current awareness requirement while making the margin for error a bit larger. Old stab you could rotate like clockwork, current (and this proposition) require you to pay attention to your party’s stab situation all the time.
(4) CC would require more thought to use. Instead of simply dropping massive CC bombs, you’d need to space it out and run proper CC rotations to get the optimal effect.

Basically, it would strengthen heavy trains and raise the skill ceiling on pirateshipping a bit, while leaving room for both in the meta.

Sounds better.

But wouldn’t “(2) Frontlines are rewarded for avoiding as much CC as possible. The reward is a longer stab duration, allowing a deeper push/easier pull out.” just allow for pop your stability for 2 seconds of running through every CC the enemy has thrown? Would support (4), though.

Arcan Soulstorm.4356:

pop your stability for 2 seconds of running through every CC the enemy has thrown?

It would. But the basic idea is that hitting the minimum stab duration (due to plowing through CC) is a big enough punishment to encourage people to juke/veil/avoid the CC.
If we assume a 0.5s icd, with 2 guards you’d have between 6 seconds (utility + courage) and 20 seconds of stability depending on how well you and your enemy play. That’s a very wide range, and you can’t get much done with the lower end of it.

That’s essentially how it already works except that the minimum duration is currently 0 seconds.

vana.5467:

Arcan Soulstorm.4356:

pop your stability for 2 seconds of running through every CC the enemy has thrown?

It would. But the basic idea is that hitting the minimum stab duration (due to plowing through CC) is a big enough punishment to encourage people to juke/veil/avoid the CC.
If we assume a 0.5s icd, with 2 guards you’d have between 6 seconds (utility + courage) and 20 seconds of stability depending on how well you and your enemy play. That’s a very wide range, and you can’t get much done with the lower end of it.

That’s essentially how it already works except that the minimum duration is currently 0 seconds.

I think the next possible step twards routing around CC if possible would be capping the immunity at 1sec (with each stack potentially giving 1sec of immunity) instead of stacking the cooldown. That way you have some immunity while wasting potential stability when unnecessarily eating stuns.

I think the major problem with keeping stability like it currently is comes when groups drop multiple ccs without aoe caps. Statics have a mechanic built into them which prevents you from being hit by multiple at the same time. Guardian rings and longbow 5s don’t have that same mechanic, so we are left with easily stripped stability. 5 stacks quickly disappear if one or two guardians drop longbow 5 (from range, too).

I like the idea of in internal cooldown to the amount of stability which can be removed by cc. At the moment, there is no reason to try anything to do with soft cc when we’ve got easily spammable hard cc to lock a zerg down. A 0.5 or 1 second icd would help a lot. 10 stacks of stability are relatively difficult to come by, but aside from a straight up boon strip they should last a minimum of 5 seconds, I’d think. I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t even bother with traiting for stability. It’s easier to just grab a ranged weapon. Not as fun.

I think that them changing all the skills involving stability is too much to ask… it would take ages to balance everything out etc. so I think we should not ask for that, it’s not gonna happen…

although I think adding internal cd of 0.5 sec on stab stack removal can be implemented and at least tested for a few weeks…

PS: what I really want is when I am in enemy CC bomb, floating around in gravity wells, surrounded by statics guardian (invisible) longbow rings and I use a break stun that grants me 3-5 stacks of stab to be able to AT LEAST DODGE AWAY, instead of my stab stacks disappear INSTANTLY…
seriously though, is it that much to ask? happened to me countless times, used breakstun with some stab stacks but the moment I clicked the skill and tried to dodge away or use invulnerability skill or something I couldn’t because the stab disappeared in 0.001 sec and I was back where I started, being CCd to death….

Peterson.8345:

I think that them changing all the skills involving stability is too much to ask… it would take ages to balance everything out etc. so I think we should not ask for that, it’s not gonna happen…

although I think adding internal cd of 0.5 sec on stab stack removal can be implemented and at least tested for a few weeks…

PS: what I really want is when I am in enemy CC bomb, floating around in gravity wells, surrounded by statics guardian (invisible) longbow rings and I use a break stun that grants me 3-5 stacks of stab to be able to AT LEAST DODGE AWAY, instead of my stab stacks disappear INSTANTLY…
seriously though, is it that much to ask? happened to me countless times, used breakstun with some stab stacks but the moment I clicked the skill and tried to dodge away or use invulnerability skill or something I couldn’t because the stab disappeared in 0.001 sec and I was back where I started, being CCd to death….

Exactly. Stability should function as a sort of preemptive stunbreak. At the moment, there’s no reason to pop stab if you’re in a guardian longbow 5 because you’re not getting out unless you’ve got at least 5 stacks and even then it’s iffy.

Dawdler.8521:

Personally I am just in favor of adding a 1s icd to broken stability so that 2 stacks over 5s offer at least 2s stability, 6 stacks over 4s would be at least 4s stability etc. You wouldnt even need skills with stacks higher than duration anymore.

Boon rip would of course still rip the full stack.

This is an interesting idea, not one that I agree with, but a step in the right direction. I like that stab can be ripped very quickly, and as I’m sure most of you will agree with its a little too quick. Before when stab stacked duration, game play was very watered down, aaannnd, less punishing. Its good that stab isnt god mode anymoreee, it emphasizes a players skill, to react in time, rather than letting them face dive into a zerg spamming aa for daysssss, while keyboard turning. Nothing wrong with that per se, but ya know, these huge battles should have some risk, because thats where the fun is.

This notion of stab having an icd, is rather, uhhhhm ridiculous, not only would it require even more calculations per minute from our beloved wvw servers, it rewards poor standards of play. We should, as a community, support anets decision to nerf stab, it was done with our interests at heart, but lets just say they did their job a little too well (cue laughter). Lets not bicker over what was or what should be, lets come together as a nation, and build upon whats here now.

Stand The Wall.6987:

This notion of stab having an icd, is rather, uhhhhm ridiculous, not only would it require even more calculations per minute from our beloved wvw servers, it rewards poor standards of play. We should, as a community, support anets decision to nerf stab, it was done with our interests at heart, but lets just say they did their job a little too well (cue laughter). Lets not bicker over what was or what should be, lets come together as a nation, and build upon whats here now.

And the question I have for that is.. why?

Being in a 60 man zerg while facerolling the keyboard all the time is hardly what I would call “good” standards of play to begin with.

When it comes to skillful play – ie duels and small scale – an icd wouldnt make much of a difference. A single player can hardly CC stab faster than 1/sec (or halfsec, whatever). A group of players would just have to spread out their CC a little instead of nuking a single player, encouraging thought behind their CC.

An icd would only affect the massive CC bombs from zergs that insta-rip 10-20 stacks of stab.

Regarding the calculations, I dont know how it would affect performance but tbh I think it would be marginal.

hunters ward needs to go before anything else can really be judged at this point

I mean it’s one player dropping 10 lines of warding for all intents and purposes.

The biggest problem people have with rollbacks is that they don’t understand their nature. It is a question of creating the shortest route to- and best platform for a position to build from. No one is suggesting that there are rollbacks of maps or stability to just leave them there for sentimental reasons. There are suggestions for rollbacks because it is easier to build up from a stable ground than to sift down from an unstable ground. Nevermind the short-term gains of playing in a less-broken balance until easier-implemented changes are implemented.

Tongku gives us nice examples of that in this thread. I may not entirely agree with his perspective on eg., rips (I found them to be working a tad better than he describes), but I think we can agree on that it is much easier to roll back and make small adjustments (improvements) to rips than it is to make large exhaustive adjustments to stability or throw in ad-hoc, less stable stability mechanics (like shoehorning in break bars or adding strip cooldowns to existing balance). Rolling back and improving rips is both more stable, easier to do and more likely to yield immidiate results that can be to improved upon.

Patching things up is usually something you do to postpone larger reinventions and it tends to both have worse short- and medium-term constructive results, because they require an ingenious invention rather than something functional that you can build on.

The old system wasn’t perfect, but we could revert to build on its imperfections.

The existing system is patchwork that will spring new leaks for every band-aid.

On a similar note, people seem to have alot of misconceptions when it comes to meta too. Meta is something that develops as creative groups adapt to changes and establishes when other groups start to copy them. There is a delay before it settles.

Things like rip-bombs, havoc-parties and assist-bombs became norm after the stability mechanics changes but they existed before the changes and developed in response pre-existing norms. Good groups never played full hammer train, they used rips and havoc (among other things) to dismantle and stomp hammer trains. The meta would have developed in that direction even without the change. The change did not drive that meta, instead the change drove the meta we see now. The creative groups warned about this situation (2016) already back then (2014) and have long since left the game.

ded game, anet doesn’t care, no one really cares

Reverting stab would be a huge step in the right direction because combat in GW2 was frigging dynamic, now it is just who can range more snoozeroni.

But anet can’t see far enough ahead of their noses to pull themselves out of their death spiral so they will keep plugging away at adding more overpowered pve crap to wvw, along with destroying spvp and abandoning more things that people enjoyed in pve, like dungeons. I have been playing wvw since the first betas and I knew a lot of wvwers. I have played in SoRs glory days to the T2 revival and back to JQ after OnS and TW decided to destroy T2 for their own amusement. Which is hilarious since they wanted to bring up YB to “fight” but YB doesn’t fight and they have been destroying T1 since they were brought up… it is amusing. I, and many players have stuck it out as long as we possibly could, but it just isn’t worth it. Anet doesn’t care about the game mode itself, why do you guys care about a change that could help it?

Dawdler.8521:

Stand The Wall.6987:

snip

And the question I have for that is.. why?

Being in a 60 man zerg while facerolling the keyboard all the time is hardly what I would call “good” standards of play to begin with.

When it comes to skillful play – ie duels and small scale – an icd wouldnt make much of a difference. A single player can hardly CC stab faster than 1/sec (or halfsec, whatever). A group of players would just have to spread out their CC a little instead of nuking a single player, encouraging thought behind their CC.

An icd would only affect the massive CC bombs from zergs that insta-rip 10-20 stacks of stab.

Regarding the calculations, I dont know how it would affect performance but tbh I think it would be marginal.

It promotes late reaction times. If you get caught by 20 ccs, you should die. Its something to get used to, and I wish they had it like this since the beginning because there likely would not have been an exodus. The proposed stab icd is a huge buff, it might as well be a reversion. Anet is not likely to go for it. I will admit it is intriguing.

I can see that point of view, and even agree to a point. The fact that your cc would be wasted though will receive a lot of bad juju and for good reason, it shouldnt happen. I can imagine a scenario where boon strips are on cd, you both jump on someone with 2 stacks of stab stomping your mate, but fail to get in a 3rd cc because of this stab icd. Its really janky if you think about it.

Regarding the calculations, honestly that was filler.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Dawdler.8521:

Stand The Wall.6987:

snip

And the question I have for that is.. why?

Being in a 60 man zerg while facerolling the keyboard all the time is hardly what I would call “good” standards of play to begin with.

When it comes to skillful play – ie duels and small scale – an icd wouldnt make much of a difference. A single player can hardly CC stab faster than 1/sec (or halfsec, whatever). A group of players would just have to spread out their CC a little instead of nuking a single player, encouraging thought behind their CC.

An icd would only affect the massive CC bombs from zergs that insta-rip 10-20 stacks of stab.

Regarding the calculations, I dont know how it would affect performance but tbh I think it would be marginal.

It promotes late reaction times. If you get caught by 20 ccs, you should die. Its something to get used to, and I wish they had it like this since the beginning because there likely would not have been an exodus. The proposed stab icd is a huge buff, it might as well be a reversion. Anet is not likely to go for it. I will admit it is intriguing.

I can see that point of view, and even agree to a point. The fact that your cc would be wasted though will receive a lot of bad juju and for good reason, it shouldnt happen. I can imagine a scenario where boon strips are on cd, you both jump on someone with 2 stacks of stab stomping your mate, but fail to get in a 3rd cc because of this stab icd. Its really janky if you think about it.

Regarding the calculations, honestly that was filler.

The issue comes when a longbow guardian pops lb 5 and 5 rings appear, but right on top of each other. To get out, I need more than one stack of stab. That should not be the case. If 2 guardians were to ring me with their hammers, one stability stack will get me out. If 2 eles static me, one stab stack will get me out. If one guardian longbow 5s me, I need at LEAST 3 stacks of stab to get out. An ICD would allow for something other than stability ripping bombs. At present, I don’t use soft cc for anything, as I’ve mentioned. Hard cc is god. Why have soft cc if it’s not going to be needed in any way? I’m not asking for stability to be a pop once and you’re free from everything kind of skill, but I’m asking for it to prevent me from getting locked into a cc that I can’t get out of unless I have infinite stacks of stability.

Pretty much.

There’s a mismatch between the relative strength of CC and stability. They’re implemented in a way that suggests they should be equal (1 stab for 1 CC), but the difference in target limit (none for many CCs, 5 for primary stab) means that stability scales horribly with fight size.

While certain cases (e.g. Hunter’s Ward) are problematic in small scales as well, this is mainly an issue that effects 25+ fights.

So what can you do? It’s important to retain the functionality of hard CC (lines, static etc..) because it benefits outnumbered players. That leaves stab to be tweaked. It has to be done in a way that doesn’t strengthen the unorganized blob more than the guild group. I can not think of a better way to meet this requirement than with the icd idea. It effectively caps the amount of CC that’s useful, equalizing that aspect of a fight between groups of different sizes. The larger group is now only superior in damage mitigation and damage output. Since WvW fights revolve a lot around good movement, this produces a much more favorable environment for the more skilled group.

vana.5467:

Pretty much.

There’s a mismatch between the relative strength of CC and stability. They’re implemented in a way that suggests they should be equal (1 stab for 1 CC), but the difference in target limit (none for many CCs, 5 for primary stab) means that stability scales horribly with fight size.

While certain cases (e.g. Hunter’s Ward) are problematic in small scales as well, this is mainly an issue that effects 25+ fights.

So what can you do? It’s important to retain the functionality of hard CC (lines, static etc..) because it benefits outnumbered players. That leaves stab to be tweaked. It has to be done in a way that doesn’t strengthen the unorganized blob more than the guild group. I can not think of a better way to meet this requirement than with the icd idea. It effectively caps the amount of CC that’s useful, equalizing that aspect of a fight between groups of different sizes. The larger group is now only superior in damage mitigation and damage output. Since WvW fights revolve a lot around good movement, this produces a much more favorable environment for the more skilled group.

THIS !! THIS !! THIS !!
but still think old stab is even better than a icd on loosing stacks cause it require no skill for a bigger blob to jsut spam random cc to make sure the smaller guild lossing there stacks even with icd faster than the big blob.

stabilty wise a small guild should be equal powerful to a big blob. the big blob have way more dmg and player for dmg mitigation, but plz let the skilled group not just get rekt in random aoe/cc spamming by the bigger blob without counterplay.

The old stabily had 1 simple counterplay, not spam your cc randomly , you must have some skill and rek the enemy in the short periodes without stab. way more skillfull than this meta atm

we never get the old hammertrain meta back cause the aoe and dmg power creep in this game make bl playing so op it will still dominate the fights

Olli.9028:

vana.5467:

Pretty much.

There’s a mismatch between the relative strength of CC and stability. They’re implemented in a way that suggests they should be equal (1 stab for 1 CC), but the difference in target limit (none for many CCs, 5 for primary stab) means that stability scales horribly with fight size.

While certain cases (e.g. Hunter’s Ward) are problematic in small scales as well, this is mainly an issue that effects 25+ fights.

So what can you do? It’s important to retain the functionality of hard CC (lines, static etc..) because it benefits outnumbered players. That leaves stab to be tweaked. It has to be done in a way that doesn’t strengthen the unorganized blob more than the guild group. I can not think of a better way to meet this requirement than with the icd idea. It effectively caps the amount of CC that’s useful, equalizing that aspect of a fight between groups of different sizes. The larger group is now only superior in damage mitigation and damage output. Since WvW fights revolve a lot around good movement, this produces a much more favorable environment for the more skilled group.

THIS !! THIS !! THIS !!
but still think old stab is even better than a icd on loosing stacks cause it require no skill for a bigger blob to jsut spam random cc to make sure the smaller guild lossing there stacks even with icd faster than the big blob.

stabilty wise a small guild should be equal powerful to a big blob. the big blob have way more dmg and player for dmg mitigation, but plz let the skilled group not just get rekt in random aoe/cc spamming by the bigger blob without counterplay.

The old stabily had 1 simple counterplay, not spam your cc randomly , you must have some skill and rek the enemy in the short periodes without stab. way more skillfull than this meta atm

we never get the old hammertrain meta back cause the aoe and dmg power creep in this game make bl playing so op it will still dominate the fights

I don’t care so much about the random aoe cc spam, because in blob-busting groups it was always a good idea to be careful of them. Eles and necros and most people that aren’t frontline were able to get by without stability if they were smart. Now, this isn’t the case. Taking on a group that outnumbers you requires the ability to move and some skills are usable from range which prevent that movement unless you have stability. A static, once hit, will let you out. That’s reasonable, in my opinion. You can be static’d once every second or two, I think, so you’re not completely immune to them, but they can’t keep you there indefinitely.

Melanion.4892:

The issue comes when a longbow guardian pops lb 5 and 5 rings appear, but right on top of each other. To get out, I need more than one stack of stab. That should not be the case. If 2 guardians were to ring me with their hammers, one stability stack will get me out. If 2 eles static me, one stab stack will get me out. If one guardian longbow 5s me, I need at LEAST 3 stacks of stab to get out. An ICD would allow for something other than stability ripping bombs. At present, I don’t use soft cc for anything, as I’ve mentioned. Hard cc is god. Why have soft cc if it’s not going to be needed in any way? I’m not asking for stability to be a pop once and you’re free from everything kind of skill, but I’m asking for it to prevent me from getting locked into a cc that I can’t get out of unless I have infinite stacks of stability.

Thats an issue regarding individual skills. I agree with you, skills like guard lb 5 are horrendous. Having stab should not be able to negate 50 ccs like it did before, and an icd is basically a reversion seeing as how you would be running through several ccs at once.

if peeps didn’t blob so much stability wouldn’t be an issue

Stand The Wall.6987:

Melanion.4892:

The issue comes when a longbow guardian pops lb 5 and 5 rings appear, but right on top of each other. To get out, I need more than one stack of stab. That should not be the case. If 2 guardians were to ring me with their hammers, one stability stack will get me out. If 2 eles static me, one stab stack will get me out. If one guardian longbow 5s me, I need at LEAST 3 stacks of stab to get out. An ICD would allow for something other than stability ripping bombs. At present, I don’t use soft cc for anything, as I’ve mentioned. Hard cc is god. Why have soft cc if it’s not going to be needed in any way? I’m not asking for stability to be a pop once and you’re free from everything kind of skill, but I’m asking for it to prevent me from getting locked into a cc that I can’t get out of unless I have infinite stacks of stability.

Thats an issue regarding individual skills. I agree with you, skills like guard lb 5 are horrendous. Having stab should not be able to negate 50 ccs like it did before, and an icd is basically a reversion seeing as how you would be running through several ccs at once.

How is this an issue of individual skill? I can dodge most of the longbow 5s, but when the enemy group has 5, you run out of dodges or the visual cues just disappear. As it is, an attentive guardian can follow a static with their longbow 5 and nobody can move. Unless you’re one of the few classes that can run around with 5+ stacks of stability, you’re not getting out of that. Normally I’m not the one hit with these things, but when you ARE hit with the wall, it should be similar to guardian hammer rings. Eg: one stack of stability lets you get out. The only reason we’re suggesting an ICD for stability removal is because apparently stability as it is does not guarantee exit from cc like this, even though it should. 2 rings on top of each other are not flaws in out skill, it’s cheese because we can’t get out.

If 2 eles drop statics on top of each other, one stack of stability gets you out of both. Simple. If 2 necros drop a fear wall on top of each other, one stack of stab, again. All other cc in the game, if placed in exactly the same place, will negate only one stack of stability. That’s what I’d call skill. Knowing where your allies are dropping their cc and spreading it or timing it so that they’re constantly cc’d. All classes aside from longbow guardian have to think about this kind of thing.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Thats an issue regarding individual skills. I agree with you, skills like guard lb 5 are horrendous. Having stab should not be able to negate 50 ccs like it did before, and an icd is basically a reversion seeing as how you would be running through several ccs at once.

Why shouldnt it? Dont we want to break up mindless zerging and encourage smaller parties?

What do you consider more tactical?

Dumping 50 ccs dumbfire into an enemy guaranteed to lock him down because stability in ripped instantly.

or

Being forced to spread out 20 + 20 + 10 ccs while manouvering the zerg in order to exhaust their stab, because if you had dumped 50 ccs then a guaranteed 2-3s stab would have walked over them and made you waste the cc bomb.

Take your pick. The problem right now is that when zergs grow to 30, 50, hell 80+ all counter-play surrounding stability completely fall apart because stacks are ripped instantly. The system doesnt work at these numbers. There’s way, way too much cc being throw around.

Like others have mentioned, I think a good idea..if technically and practically possible would be to add a short icd for stability stacks, so they cant just all be instantly removed, unless its through boon removal. With anet’s legendary obsession with cc’s, stability is sometimes useless in large fights now, the long cd’s, lack of access, short durations, and low stacks doesnt help.

All aboard the pirateship…

I meant the guardian longbow skill, not your personal skill. I shouldve worded that differently. For the lb #5 imo only one ring should appear in the middle of the aoe circle.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Melanion.4892:

The issue comes when a longbow guardian pops lb 5 and 5 rings appear, but right on top of each other. To get out, I need more than one stack of stab. That should not be the case. If 2 guardians were to ring me with their hammers, one stability stack will get me out. If 2 eles static me, one stab stack will get me out. If one guardian longbow 5s me, I need at LEAST 3 stacks of stab to get out. An ICD would allow for something other than stability ripping bombs. At present, I don’t use soft cc for anything, as I’ve mentioned. Hard cc is god. Why have soft cc if it’s not going to be needed in any way? I’m not asking for stability to be a pop once and you’re free from everything kind of skill, but I’m asking for it to prevent me from getting locked into a cc that I can’t get out of unless I have infinite stacks of stability.

Thats an issue regarding individual skills. I agree with you, skills like guard lb 5 are horrendous. Having stab should not be able to negate 50 ccs like it did before, and an icd is basically a reversion seeing as how you would be running through several ccs at once.

The biggest selling point imho of WvW is it’s dynamic and fast paced combat system. The current pirate ship meta is completly contra productive and with several competitors coming on the market that will be a factor.
We had 2 years fun playing melee and hammer trains in this game mode.

With the new options in boon removal there is no reason to not buff stability.

Stab was never an issue, players like to lay blame and stab was an easy target. The reality is 90% of player would freak out and have a seizure on inc and blow everything then stand there like a deer in headlights instead of Kiting, moving, timing their CC correctly and most importantly knowing what CC’s ignore stab. If everyone of your players capable of using CC blows it on inc then just stands there and gets ran over well … that’s a player issue not a mechanic issue.

Aside from that, these people that claim they would return, have they played since HoT and do they know what they would be returning to ? Stability changes hurt WvW but it is only a drop of water in an ocean of issues.

Random.4691:

Stab was never an issue, players like to lay blame and stab was an easy target. The reality is 90% of player would freak out and have a seizure on inc and blow everything then stand there like a deer in headlights instead of Kiting, moving, timing their CC correctly and most importantly knowing what CC’s ignore stab. If everyone of your players capable of using CC blows it on inc then just stands there and gets ran over well … that’s a player issue not a mechanic issue.

Aside from that, these people that claim they would return, have they played since HoT and do they know what they would be returning to ? Stability changes hurt WvW but it is only a drop of water in an ocean of issues.

The guys I talk to return every few weeks to try things out. They know what they’re getting back into, but at least a stability fix would help things. Tonight, we ran into a few other issues when they tagged along that (in my opinion) need to be immediately addressed.

There are so many things about wvw that need help, but stability changes at least let open field fights take place without immediate cheese.

CC is actually too weak now. Yesterday i did drop static field laika pro and whole zerg just run through it. If i drop cc every player should top there. That is point of cc. Frigging one warrior come and you need like 15 cc skill to stop him if you don’t have boon corrupt.

Junkpile.7439:

CC is actually too weak now. Yesterday i did drop static field laika pro and whole zerg just run through it. If i drop cc every player should top there. That is point of cc. Frigging one warrior come and you need like 15 cc skill to stop him if you don’t have boon corrupt.

I think you might be doing it wrong…

Melanion.4892:

Junkpile.7439:

CC is actually too weak now. Yesterday i did drop static field laika pro and whole zerg just run through it. If i drop cc every player should top there. That is point of cc. Frigging one warrior come and you need like 15 cc skill to stop him if you don’t have boon corrupt.

I think you might be doing it wrong…

Nah, He speaks the truth :P Check his post history. Every post from him is on point!

only reason I come here really is to read his replies

Even if we had a complete reversal on stability, it would still be too weak, especially with the amount of CC available now on really short cooldowns. Considering the average party back then had on average around 40% stability uptime in theory (in reality less than 20%), it would still not be difficult to immobilise, boon strip, then CC to death.

No worry, the stab is fine. In a few months the WvWvW will be a 5v5v5 so it will be balanced.

I do find it ironic how they nerfed stability to function at stacks yet they introduced resistance which is duration based and make you immune the the effects of conditions.

We do have better boon removal now to offset the old stability if it came back.