Stability must be fixed

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: AmphibianX.7042

AmphibianX.7042

here is a video from an old guild Called Red Guard one of the best zerg-busting guilds in gw2 (imo) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaRGUCXfqfQ

during the first fight starting at 1:17 the guy recording was never with out Stability for more than 3 seconds. through out that whole battle which lasted a good 2 minutes. the guy was never knocked down, feared, stunt, pulled, pushed, etc, etc.
meaning that all the CC skills on that “100 man blob” failed.

I gotta say, Stability was OP before but now is Super Weak.
nowadays 95% of CCs work, so you cant even move or use any skills during a battle.
I think there needs to be a middle ground, where both CCs and Stability are effective.

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: Subversion.2580

Subversion.2580

during the first fight starting at 1:17 the guy recording was never with out Stability for more than 3 seconds. through out that whole battle which lasted a good 2 minutes. the guy was never knocked down, feared, stunt, pulled, pushed, etc, etc.
meaning that all the CC skills on that “100 man blob” failed.

Which is probably explained by that the “blob” did not coordinate any attempts to rip their stability. In fact, the players there probably didn’t even give up potential damage sources or personal utility to slot skills that could rip.

I’m old enough to have fought RG and they (or if it was an early incarnation of TA) were among the guilds who would use coordinated rip-bombs to punish groups who had no redundancy in their coverage. RG on the other hand, if you listen to coms with SacrX, has redundancy in their stability rotations: a tell that they are expecting to get ripped and respond to it.

Thanks for making my point, I guess.

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

The problem with the stability discourse, as well as many other discussions regarding WvW lately, is that it is obscured by the misconceptions of stupid people. People who are completely unable to either look at the very simple mechanics behind the change and tally up the numbers or look into the context of how the stability change is the driving fault behind the “population imbalance” and general discouragement of content-enablers (like commanders, roamers, scouts etc). I have no better description for people who refuses to argue the points at hand or harp on about incontextual or peripheral issues.

There never was a “permastab” norm before the change. That is the misconception of stupid people who never understood how rips worked and simply wanted their spammable go-to buttons to be the end-all solution to some elitist guild, all-melee, permastab strawman. The changes to stability, making it part of a tit-for-tat cooldown trade, is in direct correlation to superiority of control effects, given how the game has more control effects on shorter cooldowns. It is an imbalance. That is the simple math.

By the same premise, it is in direct correlation to larger groups outperforming smaller groups [with fewer cooldowns to burn] (making transfering to higher populated servers more appealing) and pickup zone-blobs outperforming well-composed diverse groups (that tend to provide said pickup groups with commanders or other forms of leaders and content-enablers). They do not have sufficient counters to cover all the control or the uptime to match the reapplication of control effects. They simply run out of cooldowns.

That used to work well, with more control than counters but higher applied covers that had to be ripped from their players to impose control upon them. The current balance makes pinballing the norm and that is what makes range-to-range combat the norm. We had rips to boons, boons to conditions and conditions to cleanses rather than the breakbar-spam nonsense promoted in PvE now to create a simplistic version of that mechanical context. Tangent: Even in PvE it would probably had been more fun with bosses that corrupted boons to cleanse and reapply or stole boons to rip, steal or corrupt back.

All of this has created a transfer circus where players transfer to win, overpopulating already highly populated servers, followers transfering to find leaders, draining lower populated servers to the point where players have to transfer to even find players to fight and to participate in the basic premise of game mode – to have open world fights – and a dependence of more players upon fewer players, where old established commanders are expected to guide more, less experienced players. That is a terrible environment to command in, causing burn-out, limited tactics at one’s disposal and a general disinterest in the game mode, from the decreasing amount of players that an increasing amount of players depend upon. That’s the context.

Stability is at the heart of everything, from the personal enjoyment of getting to control your own character to the melee-range balance, finding fun friends to follow and exciting frenemies to fight. A game (mode) where restricted movement is the norm is simply garbage and completely counter-intuitively wasteful to the fantastic movement- and combat engine this game promises underneath the WvW scrapheap. That’s why many of us are so passionate about it too, because the WvW mode has so much potential in GW2. It stands to be the open-world market leader. The same can not be said for good stories, raids or esports, with cross-genre competition where our MMO is but a small contender.

I just want to say thank you for this post. I hope ANET reads this and takes it into consideration if they truly want people to keep playing their game.

Well the Stability changes came around the time Devon left, so they probably didn’t have 1 person left at Anet understanding the negative impact of that stability change for WvW. They ended up with PvP devs deciding of all the changes for the game, and WvW suffered greatly from it. How many skills, boons and traits, fine-tuned for PvP are now completely useless in WvW?

Just take Ice Bow for example, it was perfectly balanced for WvW, but they completly destroyed the skill just for PvE. It’s clear that for the PvP devs WvW is PvE and not a competitive mode.

Not sure why people have any positive memories of Devon. He was pretty reviled for his total lack of WvW knowledge when he was in charge .

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

The problem with the stability discourse, as well as many other discussions regarding WvW lately, is that it is obscured by the misconceptions of stupid people. People who are completely unable to either look at the very simple mechanics behind the change and tally up the numbers or look into the context of how the stability change is the driving fault behind the “population imbalance” and general discouragement of content-enablers (like commanders, roamers, scouts etc). I have no better description for people who refuses to argue the points at hand or harp on about incontextual or peripheral issues.

There never was a “permastab” norm before the change. That is the misconception of stupid people who never understood how rips worked and simply wanted their spammable go-to buttons to be the end-all solution to some elitist guild, all-melee, permastab strawman. The changes to stability, making it part of a tit-for-tat cooldown trade, is in direct correlation to superiority of control effects, given how the game has more control effects on shorter cooldowns. It is an imbalance. That is the simple math.

By the same premise, it is in direct correlation to larger groups outperforming smaller groups [with fewer cooldowns to burn] (making transfering to higher populated servers more appealing) and pickup zone-blobs outperforming well-composed diverse groups (that tend to provide said pickup groups with commanders or other forms of leaders and content-enablers). They do not have sufficient counters to cover all the control or the uptime to match the reapplication of control effects. They simply run out of cooldowns.

That used to work well, with more control than counters but higher applied covers that had to be ripped from their players to impose control upon them. The current balance makes pinballing the norm and that is what makes range-to-range combat the norm. We had rips to boons, boons to conditions and conditions to cleanses rather than the breakbar-spam nonsense promoted in PvE now to create a simplistic version of that mechanical context. Tangent: Even in PvE it would probably had been more fun with bosses that corrupted boons to cleanse and reapply or stole boons to rip, steal or corrupt back.

All of this has created a transfer circus where players transfer to win, overpopulating already highly populated servers, followers transfering to find leaders, draining lower populated servers to the point where players have to transfer to even find players to fight and to participate in the basic premise of game mode – to have open world fights – and a dependence of more players upon fewer players, where old established commanders are expected to guide more, less experienced players. That is a terrible environment to command in, causing burn-out, limited tactics at one’s disposal and a general disinterest in the game mode, from the decreasing amount of players that an increasing amount of players depend upon. That’s the context.

Stability is at the heart of everything, from the personal enjoyment of getting to control your own character to the melee-range balance, finding fun friends to follow and exciting frenemies to fight. A game (mode) where restricted movement is the norm is simply garbage and completely counter-intuitively wasteful to the fantastic movement- and combat engine this game promises underneath the WvW scrapheap. That’s why many of us are so passionate about it too, because the WvW mode has so much potential in GW2. It stands to be the open-world market leader. The same can not be said for good stories, raids or esports, with cross-genre competition where our MMO is but a small contender.

I just want to say thank you for this post. I hope ANET reads this and takes it into consideration if they truly want people to keep playing their game.

Well the Stability changes came around the time Devon left, so they probably didn’t have 1 person left at Anet understanding the negative impact of that stability change for WvW. They ended up with PvP devs deciding of all the changes for the game, and WvW suffered greatly from it. How many skills, boons and traits, fine-tuned for PvP are now completely useless in WvW?

Just take Ice Bow for example, it was perfectly balanced for WvW, but they completly destroyed the skill just for PvE. It’s clear that for the PvP devs WvW is PvE and not a competitive mode.

Not sure why people have any positive memories of Devon. He was pretty reviled for his total lack of WvW knowledge when he was in charge .

Well maybe it wasn’t Devon, but someone at Anet must have understood why stability needed to function that way when they designed it.

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: briggah.7910

briggah.7910

Player Vs Everyone
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Stability must be fixed

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Posted by: Dano.5298

Dano.5298

People just need to look at it honestly. How about instead of arguing against strips and perma stab, we also look at the effect it had on player participation which correlates to fun?

Before stab changes, wvw was packed, tons of fun, wasn’t frustrating.

After stab changes, 75% of the wvw population quit.

Even if you like the stab changes, Which for all the reasons stated here is simply just ugh IMO, can we not at least agree that it significantly damaged the game type? Other things damaged it too but the stab changes destroyed the wvw community. Saying that the wvw population needs to L2P is irrelevant. People. Do. Not. Like. The stab changes. Isn’t that enough?

Ev
[SQD]

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

People just need to look at it honestly. How about instead of arguing against strips and perma stab, we also look at the effect it had on player participation which correlates to fun?

Before stab changes, wvw was packed, tons of fun, wasn’t frustrating.

After stab changes, 75% of the wvw population quit.

Even if you like the stab changes, Which for all the reasons stated here is simply just ugh IMO, can we not at least agree that it significantly damaged the game type? Other things damaged it too but the stab changes destroyed the wvw community. Saying that the wvw population needs to L2P is irrelevant. People. Do. Not. Like. The stab changes. Isn’t that enough?

I made a thread explaining why the stab changes favored larger groups as soon as they implemented this disastrous change.

Before the changes, if a large group has more ccs you could still rely on your stability to at least finish casting a few skills. It was something you could rely on and it gave a chance to smaller groups who played well to overcome larger groups. After the stability changes you can get even 8 stacks of stability removed during a single skill channeling. That is if you just don’t get cc-locked for 10 seconds while your skills are on infinite recharge.

It just makes the game less enjoyable, which is why we all miss the old days.

Stability must be fixed

in WvW

Posted by: Kirito.2195

Kirito.2195

People just need to look at it honestly. How about instead of arguing against strips and perma stab, we also look at the effect it had on player participation which correlates to fun?

Before stab changes, wvw was packed, tons of fun, wasn’t frustrating.

After stab changes, 75% of the wvw population quit.

I’ve known Ev for a while now and I know his history and can vouche he knows his kitten. So his statements here are objective, before anyone goes and jumps on him for being a noob or whatever. Mind you this is his second time making a huge kitten thread regarding Stability issues. Anyways though I agree. When I first started WvW’ing 2 years ago on ET, whatever very low tier it was – there was still plenty to do, definitely quite the community. Which is interesting how I can’t replicate how amazing WvW seemed to me at that time no matter how many servers I go onto. Good times, ded gaem

Vyrinn

(edited by Kirito.2195)

Stability must be fixed

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Well maybe it wasn’t Devon, but someone at Anet must have understood why stability needed to function that way when they designed it.

The original designers are most probably not at anet any more. Remember Devon was only put in charge of WvW months after launch. Habib was the guy at launch and for months who was the face of WvW development.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
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Stability must be fixed

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Posted by: Dano.5298

Dano.5298

People just need to look at it honestly. How about instead of arguing against strips and perma stab, we also look at the effect it had on player participation which correlates to fun?

Before stab changes, wvw was packed, tons of fun, wasn’t frustrating.

After stab changes, 75% of the wvw population quit.

Even if you like the stab changes, Which for all the reasons stated here is simply just ugh IMO, can we not at least agree that it significantly damaged the game type? Other things damaged it too but the stab changes destroyed the wvw community. Saying that the wvw population needs to L2P is irrelevant. People. Do. Not. Like. The stab changes. Isn’t that enough?

I made a thread explaining why the stab changes favored larger groups as soon as they implemented this disastrous change.

Before the changes, if a large group has more ccs you could still rely on your stability to at least finish casting a few skills. It was something you could rely on and it gave a chance to smaller groups who played well to overcome larger groups. After the stability changes you can get even 8 stacks of stability removed during a single skill channeling. That is if you just don’t get cc-locked for 10 seconds while your skills are on infinite recharge.

It just makes the game less enjoyable, which is why we all miss the old days.

It makes total sense. IDK, perhaps if we all kinda come together to come up with a good proposal for ANET. Say a stability week? Sometimes its okay in competitive games to test things. In football, in preseason they tested making EP’s longer… They felt it was a good change, they got input, and its now in the game. In basketball, they tried changing the ball to like a non-leather type of ball… Everyone hated it and they switched back. Every year, competition committees come together and try to change rules for the health of the game. If something is being exploited, they try to make a rule.. Even with all of that, pro sports are still unbelievably frustrating to watch still (rules are still garbage) but it helps. I have never seen a game this unfair and this neglected that people still play.

I’ve known Ev for a while now and I know his history and can vouche he knows his kitten. So his statements here are objective, before anyone goes and jumps on him for being a noob or whatever. Mind you this is his second time making a huge kitten thread regarding Stability issues. Anyways though I agree. When I first started WvW’ing 2 years ago on ET, whatever very low tier it was – there was still plenty to do, definitely quite the community. Which is interesting how I can’t replicate how amazing WvW seemed to me at that time no matter how many servers I go onto. Good times, ded gaem

Thanks man. Think I know about half what you know but yeah we def both play the game and have been big parts of the wvw community. Its definitely heading to ded game if it isn’t that already lol. Stab changes man… stab changes. I like how every guild I talk to, they all say the same thing, “We complain about the stab changes every raid”

but nooooo its a L2P issue. You have to learn to enjoy not having fun by getting stun locked all day.

And lol yeah this might be round 2 of stab whining but /shrug maybe it might help a game I really enjoy!

Ev
[SQD]

(edited by Dano.5298)