Guild Wars 2

Ok, so, I haven’t been on the forums much until this last week, and in the process of reading the reactions on my beloved mesmer’s nerfs, started wondering about the thief.

I’ve seen people in WVW express frustration, and then experienced it myself: several of us trying to take down a single thief, and he kept going back into stealth, coming out full health, while our health skills had only partially healed us and on CD, coming at us again and again, until we were all dead… and he was at full health.

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

One guildie playing a hammer warrior told me he never has a problem, running with endure pain and some other stuff, but even he can’t kill the thief; as soon as the thief realized he’s in trouble, he escapes without the warrior being able to stop him.

On the other hand, I’ve been told thief players believe they would be very unhappy with the accusations that they are OP.

So, what’s the story? Are they OP? My guild mates seem to think that there is some serious love for the thief going on with the developers that will prevent nerfs, but no class should be able to solo entire groups of other characters so easily.

any class at the hands of a good player who knows it can be “op” i’ve faced mesmers that destroyed me in seconds then 20 minutes later faced a mesmer i could roll my face across the keyboard and kill. i’d say its more about the player then the class

Until culling is fixed, adjustments to thief are impossible to gauge. With how stealth interacts with culling, thief does have an unfair advantage in WvW, but you don’t want to make class adjustments because of a temporary issue somewhere else in the game.

ya its culling thats op for any class that can drop in and out of stealth , makes for some interesting thief on thief fights though :P over all though the las is fairly balaanced it jsut doesn’t seem so when undergeared people who get auto leveled to 80 take hits… sure i can back stab you for 12k but a warrior can kill shot you for 16k and he isn’t called op.. its just the fact ppl cant see you due to the culling

I think there is nothing wrong with Thiefs. Maybe the only thing I woud change, when the thief come out of stelth they should get the “eye icon” not only if they attack from stealth

@Uberlicious: Were you, yourself, playing a thief?

@Syeria: ok, I’m gonna have to search that term, but to show my ignorance for everyone to see… what is culling? As in for this game, I know the term out of game lol

My ele is kinda anti-thief, never met one that i couldn´t take out if i wasn´t playing terribly bad.

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

With that said, the Thief is a solid class. It has had some adjustments made to it since launch that should have been made, but seems to be in line with the other classes in the game at current. There are a few things that I have heard other players report about them that I personally haven’t encountered, but if they are legitimate claims (essentially taking advantage of the culling issue and being able to cap points in stealth)…those things should be fixed.

The forums are a terrible place to gauge relative class effectiveness because everyone else is overpowered and their class is kittened. The only class that I believe needs some downward tweaking currently is the Mesmer. Outside that, I think things are decent shape (always room for improvement though)

yes morf i’ve got about 500 hours or so logged on a thief character, and culling is when the server prioritizes what it should load first so it doesn’t bog down your system, so even though a thief will pop out of stealth after 3 seconds most of the time you cant see him because he hasn’t been reloaded by the server… its how they attempt to have lag free WvW its not just thieves like this though entire zergs will be invisble if they moved fast enough onto you

Just going to throw out a fairly simple counter to 1 condition thief vs many players if those players can’t stop the Thief or force them to run for whatever reason.

This steathspam play-style requires the wearing down of a single target. Identify who the target is (pretty easy) then have people stand around/on him. This will block dps/bleeds and force the thief to swap targets, just switch up who is standing on/around the dude. There is no way a thief should be downing people with brains that are in large groups but it happens all the time. Usually due to the “target” freaking out and trying to run away when he should crowd himself with his allies.

The other counter is to dodge cloak and dagger. It’s the most important skill to dodge. Good players dodge/immune/block cloak and dagger in 1 on 1’s but when there are a lot of enemies they all just assume they don’t need to bother. Everyone needs to be prepared to stuff the next C&D. 2 misses in a row forces a utility like SR.

On that note be ready to counter Refuge with either AoE or push/pulls. It’s crazy how a thief can SR in the middle of 20 people and no a single one has a push/pull? Or if they do it’s 3 seconds too late. Some of it is predicting when the thief will be using SR and that comes with some experience but if you anticipate it you can counter the move completely.

Outside of culling thieves are a good class not op.

That said hang out on the forums long enough and you see that thieves, dd ele, guardian, warrior and Mesmer are all considered op. this just seems to me that maybe necro/ranger/engin need some love.

Thief can be an monster in WvW if played correctly, he can kill you /laugh and go away
However most of the times i prefer to have an thief chasing me , then an GS warrior or D/D elementarist. Cause i know if the thief make an single mistake or i can see his next move he is out of combat , dead.
I am not sure , where this mecanism work , low risk high reward, but i tell you for sure i punished over 2000 Glass cannon thieves.

OP have you seen a skilled D/D ele lol what thief?

Its’ just not fun because thiefs are kings when it comes to escape ^^.

there are things you can do to minimize that, shadow refuge can give them 11 seconds of stealth but it needs to finish ticking, knock them out and it cancels all their stealth, the healing sigent can cure cripple but its on a long cooldown, you can traint to remove cripple on dodge but only once per 10 seconds and it wont effect things like chill… once you know how to counter them they really arn’t as god like as you guys are building them to be

First of all gomen english.
All these opinions are valid ONLY from 1 THIEF point of view and in 1VS1 PVP in wvw (more exactly just my opinion :P)
So:

Morfedel.4165:

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

Totally agree.
Im a thief, i can tell i kill a lot and die a lot.
Im not a pro, just consider myself over the average.
OP is warrior, the only one, if the warrior player skill is average, i cant take him down in a 1vs1. Just spamin skills or with a greatsword i cant get close without receive a lot of dmg, with range weapon i cant do too much dmg, and he can escape from me, all this if he is a player over the average.
Mesmer 1vs1 is a tie for me, if the mesmer is a good player.
Elementalist is hard only against those who played well and have too much aoe with too much dmg. I saw just a couple of that kind.
Guardians i dont know …
Necros and Rangers need be buffed :S
Enginer is the one who need be buffed more than all :S:S:S

ErlendR.6107:

First of all gomen english.
All these opinions are valid ONLY from 1 THIEF point of view and in 1VS1 PVP in wvw (more exactly just my opinion :P)
So:

Morfedel.4165:

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

Totally agree.
Im a thief, i can tell i kill a lot and die a lot.
Im not a pro, just consider myself over the average.
OP is warrior, the only one, if the warrior player skill is average, i cant take him down in a 1vs1. Just spamin skills or with a greatsword i cant get close without receive a lot of dmg, with range weapon i cant do too much dmg, and he can escape from me, all this if he is a player over the average.
Mesmer 1vs1 is a tie for me, if the mesmer is a good player.
Elementalist is hard only against those who played well and have too much aoe with too much dmg. I saw just a couple of that kind.
Guardians i dont know …
Necros and Rangers need be buffed :S
Enginer is the one who need be buffed more than all :S:S:S

Guardians are stalemate if they are good. Rangers do need a buff and an option to hide their pet for a self buff or something. You just haven’t run into really good necros or engies yet.

You are wrong about engi. It’s true that good engi is too rare. In fact the top1 bunker is neither Guardian nor d/d ele but a good engi. I would say thief vs a good bunky engi = no chance at all.

ErlendR.6107:

First of all gomen english.
All these opinions are valid ONLY from 1 THIEF point of view and in 1VS1 PVP in wvw (more exactly just my opinion :P)
So:

Morfedel.4165:

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

Totally agree.
Im a thief, i can tell i kill a lot and die a lot.
Im not a pro, just consider myself over the average.
OP is warrior, the only one, if the warrior player skill is average, i cant take him down in a 1vs1. Just spamin skills or with a greatsword i cant get close without receive a lot of dmg, with range weapon i cant do too much dmg, and he can escape from me, all this if he is a player over the average.
Mesmer 1vs1 is a tie for me, if the mesmer is a good player.
Elementalist is hard only against those who played well and have too much aoe with too much dmg. I saw just a couple of that kind.
Guardians i dont know …
Necros and Rangers need be buffed :S
Enginer is the one who need be buffed more than all :S:S:S

Stiv.1820:

Just going to throw out a fairly simple counter to 1 condition thief vs many players if those players can’t stop the Thief or force them to run for whatever reason.

This steathspam play-style requires the wearing down of a single target. Identify who the target is (pretty easy) then have people stand around/on him. This will block dps/bleeds and force the thief to swap targets, just switch up who is standing on/around the dude. There is no way a thief should be downing people with brains that are in large groups but it happens all the time. Usually due to the “target” freaking out and trying to run away when he should crowd himself with his allies.

The other counter is to dodge cloak and dagger. It’s the most important skill to dodge. Good players dodge/immune/block cloak and dagger in 1 on 1’s but when there are a lot of enemies they all just assume they don’t need to bother. Everyone needs to be prepared to stuff the next C&D. 2 misses in a row forces a utility like SR.

On that note be ready to counter Refuge with either AoE or push/pulls. It’s crazy how a thief can SR in the middle of 20 people and no a single one has a push/pull? Or if they do it’s 3 seconds too late. Some of it is predicting when the thief will be using SR and that comes with some experience but if you anticipate it you can counter the move completely.

Lot of good advice here, I would also add that guardian’s alternate using your aegis when the thief goes into stealth, blocked cloak and dagger makes for a dead thief.

This is not a thief issue, imo. You can substitute any class in this game in place of the thief (yes that includes engineers, rangers, necros or whatever class you think is weak) in most of the QQs you see on the forums. The issue is matching up casual WvWers that mostly spend their time zerging, against competitive solo’ers that spend all their time fine tuning their gear and build through a constant process of testing and learning, not just about their own class, but all the classes they face.

The downed system is a lame system that will save pretty much any small group from being solo’d, make sure you learn to use it to your benefit.

I had a fun fight with a Thief today. The entire fight took place on one of the bridges and maybe I would have had a chance if I ran a trap build but I doubt it. At least I survived long enough to get 3 barrages off not that it mattered because I was spamming tab the rest of the time and didn’t come up with a target once. Not one time in in a little over a minute of fighting was I able to target the Thief. Kind of hard to win a fight that way.

This particular thief must not be too good. Most thieves put my ranger down and I can only get barrage off once. I wish I had been recording it as it probably looked funny as heck with me tumbling and running about with the briefest flickers of something there but then not there. I must have looked like a crazy man running away from a swarm of bees that no one can see.

In the hands of a skilled player, a thief can be beastly. However they do have an advantage with the culling that pushes them into the realms of being OP and that is where the frustration comes from, if the culling was fixed that hopefully would reduce the complaints from players. If a thief killed me legitimately, I would not complain. If they killed me because I couldn’t see them for most of the fight, then yes I’ll complain.

I’ve been called OP by my own server when they’ve watched me on my D/D Ele, BUT I play solo mostly, have practised a hell of a lot and the majority of people I’m rolling over are either a) Low Level or b) Just plain bad. It’s not so much I’m awesome and more of a case that the majority of people I am fighting are casuals or just plain terrible.

Soba.3041:

I had a fun fight with a Thief today. The entire fight took place on one of the bridges and maybe I would have had a chance if I ran a trap build but I doubt it. At least I survived long enough to get 3 barrages off not that it mattered because I was spamming tab the rest of the time and didn’t come up with a target once. Not one time in in a little over a minute of fighting was I able to target the Thief. Kind of hard to win a fight that way.

This particular thief must not be too good. Most thieves put my ranger down and I can only get barrage off once. I wish I had been recording it as it probably looked funny as heck with me tumbling and running about with the briefest flickers of something there but then not there. I must have looked like a crazy man running away from a swarm of bees that no one can see.

Honestly a Ranger is the one prof that has every right to complain. Any thief with a offhand dagger will get free stealth at will vs your pet and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. That’s why they need to patch in an ability for rangers to “dismiss” their pet for a buff of some sort. There is zero and I mean zero chance to beat a p/d thief as a Ranger. If Rangers are pulling it off it’s because the Thief is bad.

Soba.3041:

I had a fun fight with a Thief today.
-snip-

No you didn’t – you had a fight where the Thief decided to stick around. My problem with thieves isn’t that they’re OP – it’s that they always run away and, at times, it feels like the whole map is made up of them. With culling, you literally can’t see them for 4-5 seconds and, by that time, they’re long gone.

Culling issue makes anything with access to stealth OPed. Unfortunately that means thieves get most out of the culling issue.

Anyway the culling in WvW makes this game pretty much unplayable.

once they fix the culling issue I’d like to see how that effects peoples opinion of thieves. At the moment due to culling you really even get to see or target the thief before they have hit you multiple times and restealthed. You’re basically fighting an invisable, untargetable enemy that does high burst damage… sounds to good to be true?

I liked this guys solution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

Ok, here is a quick fix, the only build’s of a thief that need to be readjusted is the culling issue, which results in rendering giving them an extra 3-4 seconds of stealth. solution spam tab or whatever button you have it bound to and smash it hard.. but they can just press # 5 with dagger “cloak & dagger” and go invis 3 sec debuff to go back into stealth, but rendering still affects.. only issue is p/d build with condi they’re squishy but can hit because rendering and pop Shadow Refuge when in trouble and then run out of combat and run back in.. i do it all the time on my thief and it needs to be re-adjusted.. in stealth u should not be able to leave combat imo.. another issue haste should only be awarded to mesmer for time warp not thieves or warriors.. so haste/basilisk venom/#2 heartseeker spam should have after three attempts a stack of 3 invulnerability debuff.. but they mentioned the upcoming fix to culling so the fairies including myself wont be able to run like cowards and toy with people.. i can literally roll up to a zerg of 30+ players and kitten with them and run across areas and laugh restealth and continue to do so… ur not bad and they’re not good. it’s the culling and thats all there is to it..

Mooks… SBI

I attack large groups all the time. Except if there is ONE player with is head not up his rear end, I usually have to get out of dodge really quickly. (I always have a sneaking suspicion that that ONE player has a freaken thief alt/main also! Traitor!)

I currently play full condition, which in WvW means I beat a LOT of player because people simply don’t bring condition removals. That’s because people want to run in zergs or are simply bad.

I also have a full glass cannon set and run it every now and then, with 10-11k health that build is high risk high reward as said. People are adapting and are getting used to dealing with glass cannon thieves and it gets harder to deal with the average player.

Also I really don’t have that much problem with culling while in a 1v1 in WvW or even up to 5v5 I really don’t have that much issues.

It is like asking whether a gun is more op than a paper cutter. The paper cutting will say gun is more op. the gun will say a good user will make the paper cutter op, and the paper cutter users are just noob without skills, blah blah blah…

Countless threads in this forum following this argument. Really sick of it. If you think thief is OP, roll one n start being OP. if not, continue enjoy the game.

I have soloed around WvW maps for greater than a few hours on 4-5 classes only so far, so I do not have the information to confirm which classes are overpowered vs a decent opponent without guesswork. ( 4 classes to 80 mainly in wvw )

I do know that my favorite Yak killing class is my elementalist…….. Zoooooom…….. gone! It is a long way to 10000 Yak kills solo….

In order for people to be happy theves would need to be nerfed so they do 1% of everyone’s damage, take 100% more damage than anyone else. Have no utility, no burst, no escape.

You know, I could totally agree with people being upset over the backstab build, but that was then and this is now. It seems that every guy on this forum starts complaining whenever he loses a fight to a thief no matter how it went down.

Culling isn’t the only issue. Being able to heal to almost full by chaining stealth is just plain OP. Btw, I play a thief. My only character past lvl 10 is a thief. I don’t want to see my class nerfed to the ground, but being able to kill 3 or 4 decent players just isn’t okay in any case.

Personally, I hate chaining stealth. It’s not fun, it’s not fighting, and it makes me feel like I am playing cheap, with a cheat code or something. CnD needs a short cooldown. To be fair though, we still die in 1 well timed knockdown from a good warrior. Which is annoying as well. Being one shot, wither by a mesmer shatter, a warriors 100 blades, or a backstab their, is just not fun for anyone.

The gyrations thieves go through to explain away their OP-ness is breathtaking.

Thieves have the best single-target burst in the game, the best mobility, and the best escapes. They get to pick their fights, start at a massive advantage (quite possibly winning if they picked the right time), and can leave the fight at whim if they aren’t happy.

Other than that, though, they are perfectly average and not OP at all.

-Jeff

Thieves spike damage is still way too high, you shouldn’t be able to instant kill someone in under 1 second.

Thief burst is extremely counterable. I used to do backstab thief, switched because it was so unreliable, and I could NEVER kill a great player. Our targets are squishies, low levels, ect. No thief is knowingly going to backstab a tank guardian or warrior, for instance. It’s a small spectrum of “OP”. I switched to P/D. Be worried about those guys, not the backstab thieves. Almost all classes have a way to counter backstab thieves.

Thief is hand down the best class right now and no is not really balance. Yes they can backstab gc player for up to 14k, and bunker for as little as 4k but then it can follow up with like 4 other attacks that hit for 2 or 3k. If they stealth they heal a lot and repeat the process. I don’t really care that they hit hard bc they really are gc but with so much stealth it becomes impossible to kill them. They need to prevent steath once the thief is in combat like every other game has done to prevent them from just slipping away.

jaif.3518:

The gyrations thieves go through to explain away their OP-ness is breathtaking.

Thieves have the best single-target burst in the game, the best mobility, and the best escapes. They get to pick their fights, start at a massive advantage (quite possibly winning if they picked the right time), and can leave the fight at whim if they aren’t happy.

Other than that, though, they are perfectly average and not OP at all.

-Jeff

Actually warriors have a higher single target burst. I wont deny the mobility though, thats mostly what thieves are good for anyways when fighting someone who knows how to dodge roll/block.

and against popular belief, stealth isnt infinite unless you spec for initiative regen and play dagger/pistol.

Not saying theyre perfectly balanced, but i dont think they deserve so much hate.

Doomdesire.9365:

Thief burst is extremely counterable. I used to do backstab thief, switched because it was so unreliable, and I could NEVER kill a great player. Our targets are squishies, low levels, ect. No thief is knowingly going to backstab a tank guardian or warrior, for instance. It’s a small spectrum of “OP”. I switched to P/D. Be worried about those guys, not the backstab thieves. Almost all classes have a way to counter backstab thieves.

There must be a build someone didn’t tell you, because they can chunk my 18khp in less then 1 second. If they catch me by surprise I have no time to react and I will die.

for the record my armor is at 2550

Warrior burst is actually quite easy to avoid unlike a thief. Thief you never really see backstab coming, even if you are lucky to dodge or avoid it some how it’s usually follow by hearthseeker 2-3 times and steal which hit kitten hard, oh and if the warrior makes a mistake or is counter they probably will die unlike the thief who simply stealth away.

I do think they’re fine.. their burst are counterable if you see it coming. But I find that it’s very annoying when I successfully block/evade their burst or nothing goes their way , they can escape without a lot of punishment by popping stealth skills and short bow their way out.. No way, I can catch them with my engineer even with perma-swiftness if they play it right ;( But hey, they’re designed to be like that ; being able to pick their fights at their advantage and having the best escape abilities when something goes wrong makes a perfect assassin/thief.

Luthias.9741:

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

With that said, the Thief is a solid class. It has had some adjustments made to it since launch that should have been made, but seems to be in line with the other classes in the game at current. There are a few things that I have heard other players report about them that I personally haven’t encountered, but if they are legitimate claims (essentially taking advantage of the culling issue and being able to cap points in stealth)…those things should be fixed.

The forums are a terrible place to gauge relative class effectiveness because everyone else is overpowered and their class is kittened. The only class that I believe needs some downward tweaking currently is the Mesmer. Outside that, I think things are decent shape (always room for improvement though)

And you see, I play mesmer, and I cannot see us as being overpowered. Why, curiously, do you think that is a possibility?

brandon.6735:

OP have you seen a skilled D/D ele lol what thief?

No, but I have a taste for blood, so Id like to see that lol

ErlendR.6107:

First of all gomen english.
All these opinions are valid ONLY from 1 THIEF point of view and in 1VS1 PVP in wvw (more exactly just my opinion :P)
So:

Morfedel.4165:

Morfedel.4165:

And then a guildie told me about a video showing a single thief taking out 25 people at once… haven’t seen it yet, but plan to look it up soon.

This made me chuckle quite a bit. If this actually exists (which it most likely does not), it would not be indicative of the power of the class…but rather the wholesale ineptitude of the other players he/she was facing.

Totally agree.
Im a thief, i can tell i kill a lot and die a lot.
Im not a pro, just consider myself over the average.
OP is warrior, the only one, if the warrior player skill is average, i cant take him down in a 1vs1. Just spamin skills or with a greatsword i cant get close without receive a lot of dmg, with range weapon i cant do too much dmg, and he can escape from me, all this if he is a player over the average.
Mesmer 1vs1 is a tie for me, if the mesmer is a good player.
Elementalist is hard only against those who played well and have too much aoe with too much dmg. I saw just a couple of that kind.
Guardians i dont know …
Necros and Rangers need be buffed :S
Enginer is the one who need be buffed more than all :S:S:S

What kind of mesmer skills give you the most grief?

I think thieves are fine.

I have a DnD Ele and a Conditions Ranger. I feel like I win when I am the better player and lose when I am outplayed. Can’t ask for more than that.

Edit: Rangers are not as weak a class as many perceive, its just that a lot of lesser skilled players tend to prefer rangers much the same as Hunters were in WoW.

Personally, I feel my ranger is stronger in 1v1 combat than my Ele.

I get the impression that the most common concensus is that the thief IS OP, but only because of the culling issues, and once the culling is fixed, there shouldn’t be the same kinds of complaints.

Does that sound about right?

Totally agree with Permastealth needing to go! It’s beyond OP on many levels. I have no problem being downed by a good player. I have no problem being killed by a good player. Though I have a problem with both of them when I don’t have a fighting chance against a target I can’t see or target.

Worst yet, as a full height Norn, Asura are like these little specs on my screen as it is. I had two Asura Thieves biting at my heels like fleas. Soooo… annoying.

It’s not like Thieves don’t fight other Thieves in WvW.
It’s easy, really.
“Target Nearest Enemy” > “Mark Target” > Stomp Cull’d Thief > ??? > Profit.

Stealth is insanely overpowered, and it only gets more ridiculous when you add healing and condition cleansing into the equation. Thieves are just a broken class and probably need to be redesigned.

Morfedel.4165:

I get the impression that the most common concensus is that the thief IS OP, but only because of the culling issues, and once the culling is fixed, there shouldn’t be the same kinds of complaints.

Does that sound about right?

Culling just makes it worse. Even without it, thieves are beyond OP.

Problem with the thief is that the relation of risk vs. reward is completely derailed. If a thief jumps on somebody and during the fight it turns out that his opponent is stronger, he can just leave and that´s it. Other classes have to make decisions with consequences on whom and where to start a fight. Their burst plus their extremely good mobility makes the thief imho OP in wvw. I try to avoid thiefs in wvw because fighting them is pointless. Culling is a general problem in wvw but the ridiculous stealth stunts thiefs can do i did not see on any other classes that are able to stealth like mesmers or engis etc.