Guild Wars 2

Please make it so we can finish opponents through stealth, I am sick and tired of having my hard earned kills stolen because some trolling thief comes along and drops a refuge that gives 15s of stealth, all that effort fighting gone to waste so they can run off after being safely rezzed. By the time the stealth comes of they have a ton of range between. This is ridiculous, if thieves can perform a finisher through stealth, we should be able to finish enemies while they are stealthed, its not like their body moved…

Let me clear up some confusion-
If you activate a finisher, then your downed opponent is stealthed, the finisher should still go through and kill the downed opponent. So long as the finisher is activated before the stealth is applied to your opponent.

just nuke the refuge, knock the ressers out, stun the resser, poison it. You can easily do something about it you know…

yes take away one of the last remaining support features of the thief. brilliant.

Doomdesire.9365:

yes take away one of the last remaining support features of the thief. brilliant.

Because stealth in itself isn’t support?

Jerus.4350:

Doomdesire.9365:

yes take away one of the last remaining support features of the thief. brilliant.

Because stealth in itself isn’t support?

reread my statement pls

Please stay on topic, the point is stealth and finishers, not about thieves and their balancing or how to fight them. I know Im not the only one who thinks stealth is ridiculously overabused, why should we fight hard just to lose kills because a refuge can be dropped and we lose a chance to drop a finisher. If you can use a finisher in stealth, why shouldnt we be able to use a finisher on an enemy stealthed after the finisher has been activated

That’s pretty much the gist of it. If other attacks can hit people in stealth (it’s not a shield, you know), then why does a finisher miss?

Eh… it is a fine mechanic as it is. Sure it can be frustrating at times but it is beatable, dangerous for the thief and makes stomping more interesting.

X T D.6458:

its not like their body moved…

Then what the heck is the problem? If you know where they are then bomb the spot…

X T D.6458:

Please make it so we can finish opponents through stealth, I am sick and tired of having my hard earned kills stolen because some trolling thief comes along and drops a refuge that gives 15s of stealth, all that effort fighting gone to waste so they can run off after being safely rezzed. By the time the stealth comes of they have a ton of range between. This is ridiculous, if thieves can perform a finisher through stealth, we should be able to finish enemies while they are stealthed, its not like their body moved…

It’s the only useful thing the thief has left after it’s been made so squishy and the damage has been reduced by 75%

I’d personally prefer the stomp to go through ONLY if you’re in melee range of the downed player while they are stealthed. At least that way the downed player has a possible chance to be saved just as much as the stomping player has the ability to stomp them.

Then again, it makes sense that you can’t stomp what you can’t see..

All other channeled abilities hit stealthed players as long as they were started before they stealthed.

Making this change would also make a mesmer’s #2 downed ability nearly useless in preventing a stomp, and a thief’s #3 would be completely useless.

For those saying just bomb the spot, it’s not always a possibility. Maybe if you have a whole party with you, yeah, but it’s very easy to out-rez you damage, especially since the refuge itself will be providing healing. You won’t always have some kind of knockback or launch on hand either. It gets to be a particular problem when you have 3-5 thieves just constantly SRing downed people in sequence, or throwing multiple SRs on top of the same person.

I think maybe there’s a case for a compromise, something like stealth durations on downed players are greatly reduced. That way it can still be used to prevent a stomp with proper timing, but it doesn’t keep them hidden forever, allowing them to be rezed, get healed, possibly out of combat, and then re-engage.

Along the same lines, I would like to see people become automatically revealed on being downed. If you’re able to down them while they’re stealthed, I think you should be rewarded with having their location revealed. Would remove this whole annoying “egg hunt” thing that you have to do sometimes.

Yamsandjams.3267:

For those saying just bomb the spot, it’s not always a possibility. Maybe if you have a whole party with you, yeah, but it’s very easy to out-rez you damage, especially since the refuge itself will be providing healing.

If you don’t have a party with you that means you are fighting at least a 1v2. You are not meant to be on equal terms in this situation.
Also, the healing is neglectible, considering the rain of blows you stand in.

thief has one of the most unique mechanics with stealth and initiative, and its a play style anet want to enhance not nerf, besides if the downed team mate hits an enemy after SR is dropped it all goes to waste, op seriously its not right to demand/complain just cause it doesn’t suit your style of play, and if we nerf that where do we draw the line? everyones got something about another profession that they would like nerfed.

Agreed that stealth and finishes should cancel each other other, every other class can be countered by the downed player except a stealth thief. Starting the finisher should destealth just like an attack..

Protoavis.9107:

Agreed that stealth and finishes should cancel each other other, every other class can be countered by the downed player except a stealth thief. Starting the finisher should destealth just like an attack..

I think you understood the thread wrong. He is saying stomping a downed enemy who goes into stealth declines the stomp. In this context the one being stomped goes to stealth, not the stomper.

The Ninja Nurse strikes again!

AoE the place, you’re hitting at least two healthpools and they won’t be moving or dodging, cuz, ya know, you’re kicking kitten .

Nerfing SR would only free up the utility slot, inevitably making thieves even more annoying.

All downed skills on any class are useless against a thief who is in stealth, and who can merrily waltz his way to you and finish you without any chance of you hitting him or preventing it.

Let’s even the playing field a bit and make downed thiefs unable to be stealthed by other players, and make none of their downed skills work, so players can waltz in and finish them. (q thiefs moaning about it, as they wouldn’t like their mechanic to work the same as others have it).

SR is one of those skills you have to play around in WvW. If you don’t have a player with the right control to clear the resing player(s) out (illusionary wave, banish, magnetic inversion, etc) all you can do is nuke the spot with big damage or melee cleaving. Examples:

100b – ridiculously good DPS
Whirlwind attack – DPS, quickly move to downed player
Binding blade – pull player away and off res channel
Whirling wrath – DPS
Mightly blow – DPS
Grenades – DPS + condis
Bombs – DPS (if in a power build) + condis
Big ol bomb – place it next to a downed player anticipating a refuge res, but not being able to spike
Pistol whip – DPS + stun to break res channel
Blurred frenzy – DPS + top with shatters if using IP
Eles in general – eles have many ground targeted and point blank attacks
Wells / marks / death shroud – DPS + condis
Any melee attack – Spam 1 if nothing else. Chain skills will also detect sure hits by cycling to next skill, so if they are downed, you can easily stand there cleaving them dead during the stealth duration.

One of things I really hate about the widespread use of crap condi builds in WvW is the reduced ability you have to push kills with in refuge resing situations, which is quite frequent in roaming play. All you have to do with power builds is react quickly and possibly bag 2+ birds with one stone. Condi builds, more times than not all you can do is twiddle your thumbs as both the downed player and the thief run off to safety.

I think stealth protecting downed allies is a GREAT mechanic and leads to serious strategy.

The key is you can still kill the downed enemy with damage even if you can’t see him.
You can beat the snot out of the thief who is in stealth too.
It just isn’t as easy and the thief has the edge which they should in this case.

I actually like the play really. It gives a thief a real role in fights where they might otherwise not have a group role.

I stomped a thief in shadow refuge last night, the other enemy thief dropped his refuge as I was coming down on the stomp, downed thief dissappeared and for some reason it still stomped him lols

Ok I think some of you are completely misunderstanding the point of my post. If you STARTED a stomp, and THEN stealth is applied to your downed enemy, for EXAMPLE through a thief’s shadow refuge as it often is, the stomp should still go through. A player should not miss out on a finishing kill simply because an enemy player was stealthed AFTER the stomp was activated. This is not about thieves, I was just using them as an example, if you have a problem with thief balancing, take that up with anet.

I’ll buy that XTD and yes, I did miss out on that.

yea thats all Im saying, if you want to stealth an ally not being stomped to save them, its fine, but stealth should not break a finisher, especially since you can perform a finisher through stealth

Spam AOEs,knockbacks,damage at said area.

Collect bags and profit

Rinse and repeat

X T D is just talking about fairness and it sounds like a solid suggestion to me. If someone can use stealth to stomp it sounds reasonable that someone can get stomped while stealthed as well, but of course as long as the stomp channel began before they stealthed. That shouldn’t hinder a thief or mesmer’s current downstate either.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! WHAT?!

“Hard earned kills.”
“Fairness.”
“Reasonable.”

Please tell me this is a troll thread.

Let’s consider all the ways a TEAM works to support one another when someone goes down, shall we?

• Guardians have the ability to wall off, knock back, or pull people away from attempting a finisher. In particular, one of their traits performs an AoE knockback while attempting to revive a downed player.

• Necromancers can fear away and daze opponents attempting to stomp. Their trait places a fear mark when they attempt to revive.

• Warriors may fear, knock back, or stun opponents attempting to stomp. One of their traits doubles revive speed.

• Mesmers may pull or knock back opponents attempting to stomp.

• Elementalists may knock back opponents attempting to stomp. Their trait doubles the revive speed.

• Rangers may knock back or daze opponents attempting to stomp.

• Thieves may daze or stealth a target attempting to stomp. Their trait stealths a target they are attempting to revive.

As a thief, stealth is a main attribute and iconic ability. If a thief is dropping a Shadow Refuge on teammate about to be stomped, that there is a kitten good thief! The trouble is people recklessly spamming their downed abilities, causing them to be revealed and preventing further stealth. When that happens, you get your “hard earned kill.”

What X T D is suggesting is absurd, because it would affect several downed abilities – such as Mesmer 2 and Thief 3. Why not just take away downed abilities all together? Since you worked “so hard to get a kill,” it simply wouldn’t be “fair” if there was still some fight left in them or, god-forbid, teamwork happening!

I’d be willing to bet that everyone who’s complaining about this has benefited from being stealth ressed at some point or another. There’s a reason almost every thief runs refuge, it can swing a fight.

That being said, almost every time I try to res someone with refuge against smart players I get downed and killed myself, to the point where I almost refuse to do it in WvW unless there’s no-one in sight. Sure, you have to stomp again, but if you react fast enough with CC and AoE pressure you can often bag another kill.

And as for the ‘I shouldn’t have to lose a kill I worked for’ argument, I have lost kills to it and to a plethora of other methods of preventing a stomp. At least with stealth there’s counterplay, you ever tried to stomp someone who’s got that sanctuary bubble consecration on their head?

Mhh, got buried in your post, but anyway.

Note that if stealth did not interrupt a stomp it would make the thief #3 downed skill, Smoke Bomb, utterly useless. Stealth interrupting a stomp might be a very intentional effect. Someone else already noted the tactical use of stealth in preventing a stomp, the purpose of the downed state is afterall to have the chance to prevent defeated state. You might as well, or better, argue against the downed state.

HAHAHAHAHAH you actually want to nerf the only skill that actually helps allies on thieves?

You know i’m getting sick of stuff like . . .

Thieves are the only one that can stomp with no risk . . .WTKITTEN!!!

Mist form?
Elixirs?
Stability?

and a lot lot lot lot more

god . . . this forum . . . always toxic with kitten arguments from people that doens’t know a kitten.

ReesesPBC.4603:

X T D is just talking about fairness and it sounds like a solid suggestion to me. If someone can use stealth to stomp it sounds reasonable that someone can get stomped while stealthed as well, but of course as long as the stomp channel began before they stealthed. That shouldn’t hinder a thief or mesmer’s current downstate either.

Under that context then you should not be able to stomp with . . .

Elementalist +
+Mist form- CD 75, invuln
Armor of Earth CD 90, stability
Obsidian Flesh CD 50, invuln
Earth’s Embrace CD 90, stability, requires trait and <50% health
Rock Solid CD 15, stability, requires attunement to earth and trait
Glyph of Storms CD 60, aoe blind, does not create a smoke field, so projectile interrupts still land normally (headshot, conc shot, etc.)

Engineer
Elixir S CD 60, invuln
Toss Elixir S CD 60, stealth/stability randomly
Elixir U CD 60, quickness
Smoke Bomb CD 25, smoke field
Self-Regulating Defense CD 90, invuln, requires trait and <25% health
Elixir X CD 120, stability, 50% chance
Flame Turret CD 30, smoke field
Guardian
Stand Your Ground CD 30, stability
Hallowed Ground CD 80, stability
Indomitable Courage CD 90, stability, requires trait

Mesmer
Distortion CD 60, distortion, requires illusions
The Prestige CD 30, stealth
Decoy CD 40, stealth
Viel CD 90, stealth
Portal Entre CD 90, teleport, way to think with portals
Mantra of Concentration CD 25, stability
Mass Invisibility CD 90, stealth
Time Warp CD 210, quickness
Desperate Decoy CD ?, stealth, requires trait and <25% health

Necromancer
Foot in the Grave CD 10, stability, requires Death Shroud and trait
Lich Form CD 180, stability
Plague CD 180, stability
Well of Darkness CD 60, aoe blind pulse, questionable (see glyph of storms)

Ranger
Rampage as One CD 120, stability
Quickening Zephyr CD 60, quickness
Zephyr’s Speed CD 20, quickness
Hide in Plain Sight CD 30, stealth, debatable

Thief
Cloak and Dagger CD 6, stealth
Blinding Powder CD 40, stealth
Shadow Refuge CD 60, stealth
Shadow Trap CD 30, stealth
Hide in Shadows CD 30, stealth
Blinding Tuft CD 45, stealth, require steal
Hidden Thief CD 45, stealth, on steal and requires trait
Instinctual Response CD 60, stealth, requires trait and >10% health lost in one hit
Black Powder CD 6, smoke field
Smoke Screen CD 30, smoke field
Critical Haste CD 30, quickness, requires trait and critical hit
Haste CD 60, quickness
Shadowstep CD 50, teleport

Warrior
Balanced Stance CD 40, stability
Dolyak Signet CD 60, stability
Last Stand CD 90, stability, requires trait and CC, goes on CD after balanced stance is used
Battle Standard CD 240, stability
Rampage CD 180, stability

Lol sorry but I cant help but laugh at some of these replies, some of you dont seem to understand, and some dont seem to realize, not everyone runs in a blob, I have stated several times the point of my post. So all of you that main thieves please stop flaming on here.

a zerg raining aoe on an enemy refuge is effective sure, but thats NOT THE POINT

X T D.6458:

Lol sorry but I cant help but laugh at some of these replies, some of you dont seem to understand, and some dont seem to realize, not everyone runs in a blob, I have stated several times the point of my post. So all of you that main thieves please stop flaming on here.

I don’t see how whether one runs in a blob or not is relevant to a discussion of whether you should be able to stealth a downed player to stop a stomp.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

X T D.6458:

Lol sorry but I cant help but laugh at some of these replies, some of you dont seem to understand, and some dont seem to realize, not everyone runs in a blob, I have stated several times the point of my post. So all of you that main thieves please stop flaming on here.

I don’t see how whether one runs in a blob or not is relevant to a discussion of whether you should be able to stealth a downed player to stop a stomp.

People are replying with oh just aoe the refuge area, its not always possible, if your in a blob sure, but if you run havok, or small group its not always an option, but again, its not the point. Unfortunately some ppl know only of the zerg/blob mentality, we were in t1 for a long time, so I am very familiar with it.

X T D.6458:

People are replying with oh just aoe the refuge area, its not always possible…

• Step 1: Spam 1.
• Step 2: Spam 2.
• Step 3: Spam 3.
• Step 4: Tuck, roll, cry, cry harder.

Seriously, unless you’re a Scepter+X/Staff mesmer you can spam your 1 ability without a target selected and still hit things. This isn’t WoW, foo! You don’t need a target to swing most of your abilities!

If you fail to get two downed targets by swinging blindly, oh well! See Step 4.

deepwinter.9015:

X T D.6458:

People are replying with oh just aoe the refuge area, its not always possible…

• Step 1: Spam 1.
• Step 2: Spam 2.
• Step 3: Spam 3.
• Step 4: Tuck, roll, cry, cry harder.

Seriously, unless you’re a Scepter+X/Staff mesmer you can spam your 1 ability without a target selected and still hit things. This isn’t WoW, foo! You don’t need a target to swing most of your abilities!

If you fail to get two downed targets by swinging blindly, oh well! See Step 4.

Please dont use this post to troll and flame, please be constructive.

This is coming from the perspective of the stomper vs the stompee and visa versa. It’s already implemented into the game that channeled skills can hit someone so why not a finisher as well? It’s not like the ones who are downed are completely out of options on their own like knockdowns teleports etc. And if you look at it the other way around those trying stomping in stealth can hardly be stopped by a stompee outside of the engi explosion or getting downed themselves in like the guardian/necro aoe. Fears and such need a target to deny the stomp by the stompee which they won’t have vs. a stealthed stomper.

Now the argument for the other abilities is that of course they are utilities, most of them at least, and they are a sacrifice to use. Of course blinds and stability can be used as well via weapon skills and such. Stealth can prevent the people who used all those things, long CD or not, to prevent a stomp after it was already channeled. If someone uses Mist form/elixer S/Stances, all of it would have been wasted just from a stealth onto a down person and not just only from SR just stealth in general.

And yes stealth can be considered counter play to those means to stomp someone but the only time it shouldn’t is if someone already started a finisher channel on the downed person as it doesn’t seem fair that you can stomp from stealth but not stomp someone in it given the above mentioned situation.

X T D.6458:

deepwinter.9015:

X T D.6458:

People are replying with oh just aoe the refuge area, its not always possible…

• Step 1: Spam 1.
• Step 2: Spam 2.
• Step 3: Spam 3.
• Step 4: Tuck, roll, cry, cry harder.

Seriously, unless you’re a Scepter+X/Staff mesmer you can spam your 1 ability without a target selected and still hit things. This isn’t WoW, foo! You don’t need a target to swing most of your abilities!

If you fail to get two downed targets by swinging blindly, oh well! See Step 4.

Please dont use this post to troll and flame, please be constructive.

HE IS BEING CONSTRUCTIVE . . . you are the one that won’t listen.

The answers we gave you are correct . . . but you are the one in a blob.

ReesesPBC.4603:

This is coming from the perspective of the stomper vs the stompee and visa versa. It’s already implemented into the game that channeled skills can hit someone so why not a finisher as well? It’s not like the ones who are downed are completely out of options on their own like knockdowns teleports etc. And if you look at it the other way around those trying stomping in stealth can hardly be stopped by a stompee outside of the engi explosion or getting downed themselves in like the guardian/necro aoe. Fears and such need a target to deny the stomp by the stompee which they won’t have vs. a stealthed stomper.

Now the argument for the other abilities is that of course they are utilities, most of them at least, and they are a sacrifice to use. Of course blinds and stability can be used as well via weapon skills and such. Stealth can prevent the people who used all those things, long CD or not, to prevent a stomp after it was already channeled. If someone uses Mist form/elixer S/Stances, all of it would have been wasted just from a stealth onto a down person and not just only from SR just stealth in general.

And yes stealth can be considered counter play to those means to stomp someone but the only time it shouldn’t is if someone already started a finisher channel on the downed person as it doesn’t seem fair that you can stomp from stealth but not stomp someone in it given the above mentioned situation.

THANK YOU, someone who gets it

X T D.6458:

Please dont use this post to troll and flame, please be constructive.

Now I know your post is just a troll.

There are multiple ways to handle a stealthed downed target, all of which were listed above. Despite your previous argument that one “needs to be in a blob” to AoE a refugged target, that is simply not the case. Your ability to understand basic game mechanics is not my fault, nor is the game “broken.” Stealth is a legitimate counter to your stomp, so deal with it by swinging your weapon in the immediate vicinity and hope to blind luck that you hit something.

Pro Tip: if your auto-attack is rotating through its chain of attacks, you’re successfully hitting a target! Congratulations!

However, if your target manages to be revived, then you’ve been outplayed and the game continues. Welcome to Guild Wars 2!

I think if anet simply made finishers an actual channeled skill, it would clear things up.

Fair enough, I didn’t mean to imply groups/zergs in my comment so sorry if it read that way. I also don’t mean any of my comments to be argumentative, flaming or disrespectful, just for the record.

Thing is if you stealth res, you not only know where the downed guy is, you also know where the guy ressing is. Smart players will hit backstab/eviscerate/enough autos and finish you while you’re trying to res in stealth, I remember one shotting a thief who was trying to res a dude by just using skull crack/hundred blades on the downed guy. Since the resser is likely a thief (very squishy) or a mesmer (low duration stealth, and often squishy to boot), a power based roamer or a havoc group should be able to down stuff in the refuge easy.

Condi builds might struggle with doing that when roaming solo, but there you have a potential downside of using condi over power. Instead of trying to interrupt the stomp you could try downing more than one guy at once so the thief has to choose who to refuge, then stomp the other guy. Then go after the thief since his refuge is on cooldown.

I dunno, I just don’t see it as much of a problem in small scale. Sure it’s annoying, but it has counters and is a necessary mechanic to counter invuln stomps. If you couldn’t stealth the downed, how would you stop that mesmer using the F4 shatter to stomp your friend?

Thanks I appreciate the civil feedback, Im not saying its a game breaking issue or anything, its certainly annoying. And the whole point is not about how to deal with thieves. Unfortunately thats what a lot of people are getting confused by. The main theme is finishing through stealth, not about thieves, was only using them as an example. Basically I am saying, I would like to see finishers treated as an actual channled skill by in game mechanics.

I would like that activating finishers will cause uncloak (as in you are uncloaked the moment you attempt to ‘finish’ someone). I dislike the mechanic which allows Thieves to instant kill unmolested.

Shadow Refuge is correctly named in this case and I support its continued use as a reviving tool. As discussed above, there are many countermeasures.

X T D.6458:

The main theme is finishing through stealth, not about thieves, was only using them as an example. Basically I am saying, I would like to see finishers treated as an actual channled skill by in game mechanics.

And what we’re saying is that is against the current concept of the game. Just as a knock back counters a stomp, so too does stealth. A player should not get a free pass to finish a kill just because they initiated it. The game is about dynamics, there needs to be counters to everything in order to make the game engaging and fair.

What you are suggesting is not fair, its selfish. Just because a player is downed doesn’t mean the fight is over – that’s how the game was designed from the beginning! Stealth is a counter to a stomp. It should prevent a stomp just like a knockback. Stomping should not be channeled, nor should it be a guarantee, least downed abilities become completely useless and require redesigns.

I’m not sorry you get denied kills because a player was smart enough to counter with a game mechanic you feel is “unfair.” The fact of the matter is stealth is a legitimate ability and there are other ways to deal with it that the devs have already given you.

jeez the lack of reading comprehension in this thread is giving me a headache..

UrMom.4205:

jeez the lack of reading comprehension in this thread is giving me a headache..

lol tell me about it, I would just like anet to see the suggestion, if they change anything great, if not I understand. But I just wanted to put out my opinion and suggestion.

I think it works perfectly as it is. Think of stealth as another form of CC. Because if you changed stomping to being channeled, what happens to all the other down state abilities with CC’s? Stealth being two of them.