Guild Wars 2

The ability for stealth (presumably thieves, I can’t see them) to prevent a zerg from capping a supply camp is insane and kitten near broke.

30 zerg vs. 1 or 2 thieves and we can’t cap it because we can’t see the thief more than for a flash of a second (culling issues?) and them moving in and out of stealth fast enough prevents the bar from moving at all. That’s just absurd.

Until you’ve fixed the loading issue, and unless you feel like providing any class with a reveal ability, at least could you hotfix thieves from preventing the cap until 5 or so seconds after they leave stealth as a bandaid? Or are one or 2 thieves supposed to prevent the capture bar in large areas (like supply camps) from moving while completely invisible if there’s any lag whatsoever?

the whole stealth mechanics is totally out of control with the rendering issues it gets more and more annoying.

I see more and more Thief groups in WvW, which defend camps and farm people with ease

Yeah cause its really kitten hard to lay down AoE fire with 30 people…

This stopped working 2 weeks ago on my server because our enemies actually actively try to look for you instead of stand there and wait for the bar to magically fill up.

Sorry but you are hilarious, no thief will stop 30 people from capping a supply camp unless none of those 30 people are competent

The ability for stealth (presumably thieves, I can’t see them) to prevent a zerg from capping a supply camp is insane and kitten near broke.

Yup!

Sorry but you are hilarious, no thief will stop 30 people from capping a supply camp unless none of those 30 people are competent

You must of not gotten the memo…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j54bkD-3Nr0

Gankfest.4965:

The ability for stealth (presumably thieves, I can’t see them) to prevent a zerg from capping a supply camp is insane and kitten near broke.

Yup!

Sorry but you are hilarious, no thief will stop 30 people from capping a supply camp unless none of those 30 people are competent

You must of not gotten the memo…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j54bkD-3Nr0

…unless none of those 30 people are competent

Same.4687:

Yeah cause its really kitten hard to lay down AoE fire with 30 people…

This stopped working 2 weeks ago on my server because our enemies actually actively try to look for you instead of stand there and wait for the bar to magically fill up.

So your argument is yes, it is perfectly fine and balanced if a thief or 2 can be completely invisible for multiple minutes (culling, lag, whatever) and prevent a much larger force from capping a node with a large capture circle (supply camp). And the counter to this is for the zerg to blindly AoE down the entire circle and hope they hit something?

Yea, that sounds terrible. I don’t see why thieves need the ability to solo prevent camp captures on their own for lengthy periods of time without being seen. I don’t believe thieves need this. They do enough without this.

That stealthed players even count for/against capping is a terrible oversight to begin with.

you don’t have to aoe whole circe – just gather up, and aoe around, so thief can’t get near. Also most skills can be used without target – enough ppl spamming their #1 around will make thief life pretty hard. All kinds of cc aoe will work. This tactic works mostly vs. pugs – any kind of coordination makes it pretty impossible for thief.

Rofl half of those people the thief is hitting for his invis arent even moving its sad to see you complain about something and reference a video of a guy doing it against a bunch of people that honestly seem to have no clue what they’re doing

It’s a valid tactic that actually counters zerging. Anything that counters zerging is usually a good thing.

A thief can hold a circle long enough for reinforcements to arrive so the camp can be properly fought over and not just trading owners.

But, it’s also very easy to kill thieves doing this, if your group knows what it is doing.

Raap.9065

It’s a valid tactic

Thorny Scrub, Sylvari Thief

Yeah, ok!

Stealth cancelling a cap is most likely a bug since it doesn’t work in sPvP.

Raap.9065:

It’s a valid tactic that actually counters zerging. Anything that counters zerging is usually a good thing.

A thief can hold a circle long enough for reinforcements to arrive so the camp can be properly fought over and not just trading owners.

But, it’s also very easy to kill thieves doing this, if your group knows what it is doing.

Sure, if you could ever see the thief, it’s all fine. What you’re not seeing in that video is his opponents perspective. The thief would have been invisible on everybody else’s screen for the vast majority of the video because the engine’s not updating the thief’s location in time before he goes invis again. All you see is maybe a poof of smoke here or there.

Redundancy.7325:

But, it’s also very easy to kill thieves doing this, if your group knows what it is doing.

Sure, if you could ever see the thief, it’s all fine. What you’re not seeing in that video is his opponents perspective. The thief would have been invisible on everybody else’s screen for the vast majority of the video because the engine’s not updating the thief’s location in time before he goes invis again. All you see is maybe a poof of smoke here or there.
[/quote]

So?

1) Players realize there’s a thief because it’s the only explanation bar a glitch preventing capturing

2) Spam AoEs and ranged attacks, or ball-up

3) Thief either dies, or is forced to retreat. His cloak will be gone in 3-4 seconds

It’s not exactly asking a lot of the enemy to counter this.

If you obviously have no clue how another class works, why shouldn’t they be able to keep you off of a point?

All you have to do is stack, then kill the thief when his stealth pops in 3 seconds. Welcome to pvp/w3 and not pve. We told our pugs complaining about this how to counter it, and it never happened again all night. Go complain about something else now.

Thx.

duszy.4612:

…unless none of those 30 people are competent

Yup I saw that… What’s your point? I should seriously get paid for all the explaining I have to do for the unequipped players of the forums.

With Clipping and Stealth, you can stealth in and out and not be seen. It’s a problem… Nuff said! The stealth debuff needs to be longer problem solved…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-Undocumented-Nerf

Part of the problem and a good temporary fix would be adjusting how huge the capture area is. There is no need for it to include the back and inside of the buildings in the capture area.

“Sorry but you are hilarious, no thief will stop 30 people from capping a supply camp unless none of those 30 people are competent”
It takes a long time to kill one thief with perma stealth spec. By the time you kill him an other will come in and stop you until the whole servers comes on you.
This is happening more and more now.

This is not a culling issue. Their a very specific spec that allows thief to be perma stealth and very resistant while being stealth.
This is because Cloak and Dagger does not have cooldown and stealth immunity does not proc if you attack after stealth is gone. Stealth immunity should happen at the end of any stealth capacity.

Everybody out of the circle! Put 1 guy in the circle, and AOE the crap outta that guy. Thief will die if he gets near, and visible if he doesn’t.

There are multiple ways to deal with a thief who’s trying to prevent a cap. Ever since that video popped up, it’s become common knowledge that when your cap stops, it’s probably a thief. Don’t stand around and expect the problem to fix itself. Use some creative ways to force him out. Happens more than you’d know, cause nobody puts a video of it up.

Everybody out of the circle! Put 1 guy in the circle, and AOE the crap outta that guy. Thief will die if he gets near, and visible if he doesn’t.

No… Dodge in >> Cloak and Dagger >> Dodge Out. No matter how you stack it, if the Thief is good, you won’t kill him in time before reinforcements arrive. Just remember this thread when people say GW2 is balanced and working as intended… D+e-r_p!

Or the thief could just.. not attack anyone, or stand near that guy. Its a really huge circle, you’d need a lot of people to ensure the entire circle is in a constant state of AoE.

Leal.4973:

Or the thief could just.. not attack anyone, or stand near that guy. Its a really huge circle, you’d need a lot of people to ensure the entire circle is in a constant state of AoE.

You have to attack someone to trigger stealth from Cloak & Dagger, really doesn’t matter; it just needs to be fixed. I don’t see why people keep trying to validate it?

Yeah just realized that, what the hell is this “sleep” stuff?

It’s hilarious listening to the thieves defend this tactic. Yeah, 20 people can eventually find the thief. It takes a while and it requires the majority of the group to be putting in an effort to find him. And somehow it’s totally reasonable to you that a large group should require a coordinated effort from everyone to deal with one person. Get a grip, it’s broken and you know it.

Gankfest.4965:

Everybody out of the circle! Put 1 guy in the circle, and AOE the crap outta that guy. Thief will die if he gets near, and visible if he doesn’t.

No… Dodge in >> Cloak and Dagger >> Dodge Out. No matter how you stack it, if the Thief is good, you won’t kill him in time before reinforcements arrive. Just remember this thread when people say GW2 is balanced and working as intended… D+e-r_p!

Heh. You don’t even have to take that risk. Just CnD someone outside of the circle, run inside the circle’s edge while stealthed, and then retreat/repeat when stealth ends.

Its not unstoppable and it can be countered easily enough with some organisation, the point is it doesnt make sense, 1 thief popping out of stealth to occasionally tap someone to go back into stealth is NOT contesting a point.

I dont see why its so hard to make people who are invisible, not prevent point capping, they will still delay it a bit, because everytime they come out of stealth it will stop again, but it wont be as ridiculous it will stop the absurd idea of one person who isnt really attacking from “contesting” the capture of a camp.

And I’m a thief. i respecced just to try this and its ridiculously easy especially with the culling thing. there is nearly always a random that tags along with organised groups and you can basically just pick on them to keep it up.

Unfortunately you are wrong. They is a delay to capping point which is bigger than stealth time.
One of my guildmate already done on Stonemist castle and blocked capture for about 15-20 minutes.

Those case should not happen at all. No single person should be able to block a capture for that long.

Thorvald.5432:

Unfortunately you are wrong. They is a delay to capping point which is bigger than stealth time.
One of my guildmate already done on Stonemist castle and blocked capture for about 15-20 minutes.

Those case should not happen at all. No single person should be able to block a capture for that long.

I’ll assume you’re talking to me as you failed to provide any kind of reference to what or who was “wrong”, you will however need to elaborate, if he was using stealth to prevent the cap then my method would of still allowed him to delay but to no where near that long, unless the people capping were in no way looking for him.

It doesnt take long to cap an uncontested point, if the timer for the cap began immediately upon the only enemy remaining entering stealth then he could(assuming he remained in stealth for its duration to avoid the revealed debuff) only delay if for a short while.

as an example lets say it takes 30 seconds to cap an uncontested point(i have no idea how long it actually takes so this will do) assuming the thief is a stealth build every time he cloaks and daggers the timer will continue on for 3-4 seconds(not sure if C&D is effected by the extra second of stealth but whatever) leaving him at most most 10 uses of cloak and daggers stealth before it caps anyway, depending on how long he can stay visible before recloaking(lets be generous and say 12 seconds), he can only prevent it for 2 minutes, with this method unless the people capping dont in any way look for him he MUST use stealth to remain alive, and therefore the capping will continue, albeit slower than uncontested but not stopped indefinitely.

TheBob.9863:

Sorry but you are hilarious, no thief will stop 30 people from capping a supply camp unless none of those 30 people are competent

Given that those same 30 people would be competent enough to take out a solo

guardian
mesmer
ranger
elementalist
engineer
necromancer
warrior

but are suddenly magically not competent enough to take out a thief….I think it’s obvious the problem here is the thief class, not the competency of people trying to take a supply camp.

No other class can stall 30 incompetent people indefinitely. Why should the thief be any different?

@Azariah (sorry quote fails half the time on this board) : Do you base your experience from sPvP or WvW ?
Because in sPvP, you can cap point even if there is someone stealth near by.
In WvW it does not work that way. This is from personal experience, you could stay 20 minutes without the point ever capping.
I must admin I do not know the exact specific but it is either due to a delay for capture or that stealth do prevent capture in WvW.
This is undeniable fact.

@thorvald…. uh you seem to be under the impression that my post is talking about the way it IS, when it is in fact talking about the way i think it SHOULD BE. do let me know if thats not what you were thinking.

Ah sorry. I misunderstood then. My bad !

As a Thief Commander, I have stopped zergs from capping supply camps long enough for my Commander Symbol to bring in enough reinforcements to wipe them. I have also once made a zerg train of 40+ people leave Godsword because they couldn’t stop me after 5 minutes and probably got frustrated.

It’s too powerful with the rendering issue and the right build. A competent Thief can stop a supply camp from being capped by a zerg easily, regardless of enemy competence level. And certain supply camps are much easier to prevent caps in than others.

If the rendering issue wasn’t present, it wouldn’t be an issue. I’d probably still stop supply camps since I’ve basically been forced to learn the exact Cloak and Dagger timing due to the many times I stopped a zerg from capping caps(CnD or die, basically).

Leal.4973:

Or the thief could just.. not attack anyone, or stand near that guy. Its a really huge circle, you’d need a lot of people to ensure the entire circle is in a constant state of AoE.

Even worse, imagine they blow all their cooldowns on getting the thief and the enemy zerg comes it right after.

Can you say barrel full of monkeys and someone has a shotgun full of buckshot?

buzzkapow.8465:

Everybody out of the circle! Put 1 guy in the circle, and AOE the crap outta that guy. Thief will die if he gets near, and visible if he doesn’t.

There are multiple ways to deal with a thief who’s trying to prevent a cap. Ever since that video popped up, it’s become common knowledge that when your cap stops, it’s probably a thief. Don’t stand around and expect the problem to fix itself. Use some creative ways to force him out. Happens more than you’d know, cause nobody puts a video of it up.

Where else does a zerg need to coordinate and find creative ways with a single player? I thought individuals aren’t supposed to be that powerful in this game, it’s teamwork that’s supposed to be powerful.

Sure, zergs need to take mesmers (for instance) into special consideration when dealing with things like portal bombing, porting your zerg into a keep or turtling. But the mesmer isn’t doing that on his own. It at least requires some degree of coordination with his own team in order to execute those tactics. So requiring your zerg to come up with creative tactics to counter what their zerg can do with a mesmer is at least somewhat reasonable.

But requiring a zerg to employ special tactics to deal with a single player acting on his own? That seems contrary to everything else they’ve designed for W3.

Has anyone seen 80 people take a castle, and then spend the next 10 minutes looking for mesmers?

But 20 idiots who can’t find a single thief for 2mins is taking up huge amounts of mental reserves.

Anything a class can do that is unique you people, and I do mean you people, will cry about for daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays n daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays lol.

Make guards see through invisibility for x amount of time after a piece of real estate changes hands. Sorted.

Since stealth is not stealth but to all intents and purposes invisibility, this is encompassed in the above simple solution.

Oh wait, was I going back to the original topic? I guess I was

Mance.5640:

Has anyone seen 80 people take a castle, and then spend the next 10 minutes looking for mesmers?

But 20 idiots who can’t find a single thief for 2mins is taking up huge amounts of mental reserves.

Anything a class can do that is unique you people, and I do mean you people, will cry about for daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays n daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaays lol.

Yeah, because a keep or Stonemist is totally comparable to a supply camp, should definitely require the same level of attention. Got a smart one here fellas.

capture meter progression should really based solely on number majority in the circle…..

We have a mesmer in our guild that knows how to pull them out of the circle. I don’t know how he does it but he does it and kills them really fast too.

I’ve seen this happen once, recently.
It took 20 people a long time to capture Godsword from a single thief. The end result was that about 5 people from the group got disgusted and left.

I can’t opine with confidence on the matter, as I’ve only just recently started playing this very cool game, but I will say this… any mechanic with that much of a negative impact on the game …is bad.

From a mesmer’s point of view there is a…

~~~SIMPLE SOULTION TO COUNTER STEALTHING THIEVES.~~~
all of the thief videos cut out the mesmer spam counters which i find clever lol.

1. have EVERYONE STACK

2. Spam Illusionary Berserker (Greatsword #4 skill)
Usually rotating the camera till a berserker pops and peve my camera to where the phantasms run to.

3. get three illusions up, pop the thief with the daze skill, F3?

4. MOA

5. Laugh.

I’ve killed so many Blackgate thieves this way, they are quite talented at keeping stealth and holding the spot.

It takes one idiot to float around to ruin the counter strategy.

hope this helps some of u.

ps. you can kill the thief in less than 1 minute of followed correctly, stacking the people is the hardest part

I am a mesmer, and I wouldnt mind if they nerfed stealth and make it less effective. Thieves are out of control… best burst and best surviability and infinite amount of escapes.. and those 3 reasons make thieves very popular in world vs world and you see them everywhere, which makes world vs world unfun for the rest of us.

Im sure the fixes are coming, and most of them will cry in anger but its for the best of the game, really. Again, as a mesmer, I also will welcome the inevitable nerf on portal. I know it will suck but I SEE BEYOND my personal satisfaction.

I’m a Thief and I came here to sign this thread

/Sign

I will certainly agree, we need this capability nerf off our class. We’re fine without the ability to spam-stealth like this.