Guild Wars 2

Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.

Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.

Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Fuzzion.2504:

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Also removing AoE target cap will help.

Daendur.2357:

Fuzzion.2504:

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Also removing AoE target cap will help.

Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.

Teamkiller.4315:

Daendur.2357:

Fuzzion.2504:

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Also removing AoE target cap will help.

Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.

No. It will help zergs.

Daendur.2357:

Teamkiller.4315:

Daendur.2357:

Fuzzion.2504:

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Also removing AoE target cap will help.

Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.

No. It will help zergs.

You can’t have it both ways.

If an AoE knockdown is going to hit EVERYONE then it should be possible to counter it for all of your allies. I’m in favour of removing the AoE cap entirely and lowering AoE damage.

Oh, and OP, people have every right to complain about “the zerg”; you can bleat on about it being “WORLD vs WORLD” and “Large Scale!” all you want, but the reality is that there is a point where WubWub becomes Spreadsheet Vs Spreadsheet. It is in Anet’s interest to craft a game mode that encourages more than just the most simple and mindless play style, particularly when that style becomes optimal in their engine.

Culling removal will help, but the AoE cap needs to die.

Negative AoE (direct damage, conditions etc) and positive ones (boons) must managed differently.
a 5 man group fighting a 20 man group should be able to hit all of them, but without boon application limit it will be easier for the big group to have full stacks for everyone.

If the culling fix works as intended it should improve things massively and hopefully with much less lag also but things I’m finding all too often is large groups of people suddenly rallying and perhaps due to the AOE cap there tends to be a over stacking of professions with certain builds to spam AOE, boons and heals, it can get so mindless and messy that I’m not surprised about the lag.. I know iIn the top tiers the zerg has the big emphasis but outnumbered skilled groups imo needs a bit love.

Reducing AOE cap means more boons for the zerg, more AOE damage for the zerg.
Why people keep asking for this?

Btw 60 people zergs arent the real problem, its when the whole zone runs as one group 80+ . The problem is that being is the biggest group is the only tactic to win at the moment.

In real life wars you need forces to defend the objectives(cities) and have protectiokittenupplies going to the frontline.. The frontline being lots of forces not in one big blob but spread out…

I think zerging(or that the only tacic is being in largest group) is solved by a few simple solutions:
- death people cant be rezzed and need to run back to the frontline
- defending keeps and towers should be made easier(saver) so a small group can defend against a large group.
- taking an unprotected tower/keep should go real easy.
- supply dolyaks start walking and you can only take supplies from supply camps when the Righteous Indignation buff is gone from the Supervisor

And why exactly should the game mechanics favour small groups over zergs again ? WvW is about large armies fighting each other, that’s the entire point.

If you’re looking for small scale battles, there’s an entire game mode devoted to that, ya know.

Daendur.2357:

Negative AoE (direct damage, conditions etc) and positive ones (boons) must managed differently.
a 5 man group fighting a 20 man group should be able to hit all of them, but without boon application limit it will be easier for the big group to have full stacks for everyone.

Where does boon stripping fit in for you? Say null field; hit all, or hit 5? What about Guardian Consecrations that deal damage and remove conditions? etc etc. Timewarp is not limited, should it be? Mass Invis? Veils? Thief houses? There are already positive AoEs that hit >5. Add to that the fact that Zergs already stack enough players to ensure that everyone gets pretty much every boon anyway.

All this leads to RNG in fights.

Treat them all the same. Things you throw down should have a known outcome. RNG in WubWub is a very bad thing; we wouldn’t stand for it in sPvP/esports right? The AoE cap, both for positive and negative AoE has lead to a situation where ONE playstyle is being used by all semi-effective large-groups/zergs; stack up, move clustered, spread the damage and limit the stripping/wardings/conditions. It’s pants.

So, again, remove the cap completely, you can’t have it both ways.

@blurps?
Why you want a game thats not about skill?
The only skill at the moment you need to have is running in a bigger group.

I dont mind big groups, its part of the game.
But at the moment it is the only tactic: winning tactic running with a whole zone in one big group 80+.. if you can do this 24/7 you will win.
Congrats much skill needed…. Its the same as WoW again where players in better gear think they are better players only because they win because they have more stats because of the gear.

Being in T1 at the moment doesnt say anything about skills players on those servers have. Nothing about tactic or teamwork. Just that they had the biggest group running around most of the time.

I want a game with a bit more skill/teamwork/tactics.. Where you can be proud being in T1.. At the moment good guild groups even moving down tiers(to get away from queues and skill lag) and organise GvG battles to see who are best… Again because being in T1 doesnt say anything about skill.

Dutchares.6084:

Reducing AOE cap means more boons for the zerg, more AOE damage for the zerg.
Why people keep asking for this?

Because there are no reliable counters.

40 people rush 5 in a tight ball spamming their autos.

5 put down null fields and wardings to slow them down, hold them up. 35 make it through regardless. Which 5? Who knows. Was stability even stripped? Who knows.

The 5 move sensibly, react quickly, counter in a way that makes sense but still get steamrolled.

The 5 check their combat logs; the biggest individual hit they took was 437.

GG?

Scale those numbers any way you see fit, the model still works.

blurps.2340:

And why exactly should the game mechanics favour small groups over zergs again ? WvW is about large armies fighting each other, that’s the entire point.

And why exactly should the mechanics favour massive zergs over smaller groups again ? WvW is about map domination, point scoring, siege placement and tactical thinking.

Man, you see how easy it is to make up your own definition of WubWub’s core game to prove your point?

Yeah, it’s that easy.

Teamkiller.4315:

Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.

Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyUDtmWhzw8

Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.

Five organized ppl in FotM Setup facerolling scared pugs and never more than 10 at a time. I dont get how this is special.
I guess any rutinee fractal team could do the same.
Stopped countig the times the pugs ate a full 100b after min 1:05.
Some pugs even seem to die fully from retaliation.

@Parthis

60 people rush 25 people.
All those 60 people cast lots of AOE .
Only 5 (different 5 all the time) get hit, making the small group stay alive, being able to kill the 60 who are spread out..

But i agree if the 60 where also organised and didnt spread out/retreat it would become again only who has biggest numbers. But i dont think removing the cap is the way to do it.. I think changing the zone tactic first , so running in one large group isnt the best tactic anymore.. And after that go look at individual skills… Like ground targets at the moment: cast 20 ground targets all in a group and they die in 2 seconds.(even with the cap)

Daendur.2357:

Teamkiller.4315:

Daendur.2357:

Fuzzion.2504:

Once culling is fixed, things are going to be very,very different

Source: 10 years of DAoC experience

Also removing AoE target cap will help.

Only if you remove boon sharing cap as well.

No. It will help zergs.

Then don’t remove AOE target cap. Otherwise, you have silly things like 5 eles with rotating meteor showers holding off 50 people indefinitely from EVER taking a tower. No one would ever get anything done.

It would turn into thief/mesmer wars 2.

The 5 move sensibly, react quickly, counter in a way that makes sense but still get steamrolled.

If it’s against 40? I don’t care how tactically or sensibly they act, they deserve to lose by volume of sheer numbers. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies.

And why exactly should the mechanics favour massive zergs over smaller groups again ? WvW is about map domination, point scoring, siege placement and tactical thinking.

Because common sense dictates 2/3/4/5/6 beats 1 in an ordinary situation. Extraordinary skill, tactics, and coordination can pull off a victory for the outnumbered group, but if it’s 40 vs 5, again, i don’t give two kittens how smart or tactical that 5 is, I would like to see them steamrolled for the good of the game (that is, that we don’t scare away the newcomers)

Also, you are COMPLETELY discounting the fact that there are MANY 40 man “zergs” that are highly organized efficient killing machines.

Btw, AoN is very good at winning 5 v 10+’s. I linked one of their videos already, it’s already possible to do things like 5v20 in the current state of wvw.

Zumy.6318:

Teamkiller.4315:

Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.

Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyUDtmWhzw8

Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.

Five organized ppl in FotM Setup facerolling scared pugs and never more than 10 at a time. I dont get how this is special.
I guess any rutinee fractal team could do the same.
Stopped countig the times the pugs ate a full 100b after min 1:05.
Some pugs even seem to die fully from retaliation.

Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.

I have seen puggers/zergers shoot themself to death on a reflection wall..
Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.

Dutchares.6084:

I have seen puggers/zergers shoot themself to death on a reflection wall..

OK? So you’re saying one guardian with a wall of reflection can down multiple unskilled enemies? Then why would you be complaining about numbers owning everything? (like they should, anyways)

Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.

you’re insulting a lot of people here, but I do invite you to gvg if you think no skill is needed. We’ll see how long you’ll last.

Teamkiller.4315:

Zumy.6318:

Teamkiller.4315:

Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys, even if the 5 guys are more skilled. advantage in firepower, effective health, area control, and boon sharing. Skill only overcomes so much. You’ve been watching too many hollywood movies if you believe that sort of thing happens regularly.

Yes, it is possible to wipe 30 guys with 4-5, but most of you aren’t good enough for that kind of thing. You overestimate your skill. Even for those good players, it’s very situational. Here, read up on the Dunning Kruger effect. It’s really interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

You can watch people who are good enough to do that kind of thing on youtube, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyUDtmWhzw8

Maybe learn instead of complaining. And for the record, roaming small scale battles are possible in wvw. I’ve had plenty of good ones uninterrupted by zergs. But if we’re talking WORLD vs WORLD then the emphasis is on LARGE scale, as in two armies clashing with each other, not seven or eight 5v5’s going on at the same time.

Five organized ppl in FotM Setup facerolling scared pugs and never more than 10 at a time. I dont get how this is special.
I guess any rutinee fractal team could do the same.
Stopped countig the times the pugs ate a full 100b after min 1:05.
Some pugs even seem to die fully from retaliation.

Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.

Somehow I do agree, but on the other hand I just dont.
5 cap of any kind is just odd. You will be running into zergs accidentally all the time and I see no reason why you should not be able to cc your way out if you are good enough. I dont mean the eles and warriors leaping away meanwhile rangers and necros die, I mean cc your way out as a team. Kiting is nearly impossible as ppl in the zerg just need to hit 1,2,3,4,5 and eventually they will hit you with an immobilize which without a warrior is not counterable.

If they want, keep the cap, but take away rally from kill and in-combat speed.
What kills my team when overrun is mostly some random pugthief adding cause he saw that on youtube and giving 10 downed players a free rally. Or because someone in the pugzerg will always be able to keep you snared in combat.

@Teamkiller.4315 That’s a lot of words to reiterate your point; yes, I get it, you think that 40 people should win be default because they’re 40 people. No tactics, no skill, no thought. Specs don’t matter, builds don’t matter, weapon choices don’t matter, the environment doesn’t matter. Ball up, spam that #1 and loot…

… for the good of the game?

Hah.

The problem and the reason why I complain about zergs is their regenerative abilities. You can’t damage a zerg if you can’t kill it at once. Down a few, they get back on their feet faster than you can stomp with haste. Kill a few, they just get revieved.

It’s a shame that this game is so noob friendly. But, since the main target group of Anet is now carebears, it is understandable.

Parthis.2091:

@Teamkiller.4315 That’s a lot of words to reiterate your point; yes, I get it, you think that 40 people should win be default because they’re 40 people. No tactics, no skill, no thought. Specs don’t matter, builds don’t matter, weapon choices don’t matter, the environment doesn’t matter. Ball up, spam that #1 and loot…

… for the good of the game?

Hah.

uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.

And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.

On the other hand, if those 5 were suddenly to start wiping 40 man zergs commonplace those FOURTY would stop playing because they feel as if it’s too hard to break the skill barrier needed to actually accomplish ANYTHING in WvW. Those 5 guys? Stopping the 40 from accomplishing anything. You don’t think people are going to start crying about how certain classes who can do that (guardian, ele, mesmer, in particular) are friggin OP in WvW? Actually, they’re more likely to NEVER touch WvW again. WvW would degenerate into what DAoC became, which was a snobby community of elitists who turned away newcomers interested in the game.

Like I said, it’s already possible to break zergs with comparatively tiny numbers. However, it should be extremely rare. Sieges are already hard enough as is against smaller numbers, you DON’T need to make them even more difficult.

Teamkiller.4315:

Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.

Because those players have no incentive to improve? There are things Anet can do to improve the experience for new players. The breakout events were one. Point is, at some point those ‘new’ players won’t be new anymore. There’s a fine line between making something accessible and making something dumb.

If a smaller group cannot counter a bigger group, either by out-playing or CC’ing their way into an advantage then this game mode is of limited long term value. It’s a very shallow experience and it can’t possibly sustain itself; because at some point those new players will see the zerg for what it is.

Master of Timespace.2548:

The problem is this: 60+ man blob in invulnerable to almost all damage. You can’t damage it if you can’t kill it at once.

Then DON’T kill it. AVOID it. You avoid fighting an uphill battle against a stronger enemey, it’s common sense. If they insist on sticking as one group split up into multiple havoc squads that hit all towers on the map at once. They can’t respond to all of them in time and they have to split up as well.

It’s really simple, I don’t get why people don’t just learn some basic strategic thinking instead of whining “nerf zergs”

Parthis.2091:

Teamkiller.4315:

Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.

Because those players have no incentive to improve? There are things Anet can do to improve the experience for new players. The breakout events were one. Point is, at some point those ‘new’ players won’t be new anymore. There’s a fine line between making something accessible and making something dumb.

If a smaller group cannot counter a bigger group, either by out-playing or CC’ing their way into an advantage then this game mode is of limited long term value. It’s a very shallow experience and it can’t possibly sustain itself; because at some point those new players will see the zerg for what it is.

The problem is it’s already possible to do such things, if you make it even easier for 5 guys to farm zergs, and it happens over and over, normal people are going to get demoralized. It already happens in the game. If one group keeps on getting wiped over and over, they just quit or move to a different BL.

At a certain point skill can’t overcome an advantage. Let me ask you, do you think it should be possible for one very skilled player to solo cap a keep against 40 defenders slaughtering them all in the process? Cause I think not. I think skill should play a role, but it should play a role secondary to obvious advantages like numbers.

Teamkiller.4315:

Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.

you’re insulting a lot of people here, but I do invite you to gvg if you think no skill is needed. We’ll see how long you’ll last.

Crikey, check out the balls on Timekiller. How many in your guild? Link to guild site? I guess you want to fix the numbers for this “GvG” with him, or should he just round up 60 people and steamroll you because, you know, numbers should always win?

@Teamkiller
What guild are you in? Maybe we can arrange something if we ever get to same tier.

I dont say all players dont have skills.. i just saying to win you dont have to have skill. You just need numbers. Even if that are players that dont know you should stop shooting at someone behind a reflection shield.

But even GvG is about running into another group with help of teleport or veil. Then cast everything you have. The only abilities that are a bit responsive to enemy actions are your heals(+waterfield) and stability… rest are all cast them when they are up..
Skill is about movement not realy how to use abilities.
I would like to see more reaction based abilities like cleaning ground targets you can place over enemy ground targets.. and stuff like buff(retaliation) removals and retaliation. So a counter ability for all abilities, so you need to react more on what happens around you.

Parthis.2091:

@Teamkiller.4315 That’s a lot of words to reiterate your point; yes, I get it, you think that 40 people should win be default because they’re 40 people. No tactics, no skill, no thought. Specs don’t matter, builds don’t matter, weapon choices don’t matter, the environment doesn’t matter. Ball up, spam that #1 and loot…

… for the good of the game?

Hah.

Yes, and he is right. At the point eight ppl cannot kill one skilled (nonthief)player this game will start losing their casual players.
Why? Because ppl already accused me and my team for cheating at some points and it was just af 5vs15.

In everty MMO, there is a casual base and ambitious playerbase.
Almost everyone in my guild has played all characters in tpvp just to see what they are able too, what the builds are, what the weaknes is, etc. A casual player wont do this and will see cheats everywhere. Now figure the situation when we(usually 2 mes, 2 guard, 1 warrior/ele (stun)) start melting zergs of 50 just because we know how to deliver 40k damage in 3 seconds? To cc-ed ppl that maybe dont use any stunbreaking skills or dps avoiding skills like f4 shatter because the dont usually need it in a blob.
Now guess who will build zerghunting saetups and who will stop playing.
And also guess what part of the game wont get any love anymore because casuals just will get kitten and it will lose the attention of those casuals.

Teamkiller.4315:

Naturally 30 guys should have a massive advantage over 5 guys…

Agreed, and naturally that is provided by sheer numbers, however that this game then gives further unnatural advantages to a larger group such as the AOE cap, rez mechanic, small map size and objectives that melt like butter is just bad design, hence people will rightly complain.

Teamkiller.4315:

Parthis.2091:

Teamkiller.4315:

Exactly. Everyone cries “Nerf zergs!” when you can see that disorganized pugs still get owned by tactical and skilled groups. It’s possible to do it in the current state of the game, I’m not entirely sure why in the world you would want to nerf it further for elitists to farm newcomers to wvw making a more hostil…forget it.

Because those players have no incentive to improve? There are things Anet can do to improve the experience for new players. The breakout events were one. Point is, at some point those ‘new’ players won’t be new anymore. There’s a fine line between making something accessible and making something dumb.

If a smaller group cannot counter a bigger group, either by out-playing or CC’ing their way into an advantage then this game mode is of limited long term value. It’s a very shallow experience and it can’t possibly sustain itself; because at some point those new players will see the zerg for what it is.

The problem is it’s already possible to do such things, if you make it even easier for 5 guys to farm zergs, and it happens over and over, normal people are going to get demoralized. It already happens in the game. If one group keeps on getting wiped over and over, they just quit or move to a different BL.

If those 40 defenders are stupid enough to be stood on top of each other outside of their own keep without manning any siege then yes, they should be wiped over and over and over.

Let’s reward stupidity, that’s solid game design.

uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.

And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.

Exactly what I said: this game is pro-noob and pro-carebear because that way the item mall sells better.

But even GvG is about running into another group with help of teleport or veil. Then cast everything you have. The only abilities that are a bit responsive to enemy actions are your heals(+waterfield) and stability… rest are all cast them when

Anything more than 3v3 in this game is just a mess and a spamfest. The most interactive fights are 2v2 and 1v1.
Those “GvG’s” are a bad joke and look ridiculous.

Parthis.2091:

Teamkiller.4315:

Why because no skill is needed for this game. As long you can follow the large group the only thing you need to do is to smash some buttons if the rest start doing stuff.

you’re insulting a lot of people here, but I do invite you to gvg if you think no skill is needed. We’ll see how long you’ll last.

Crikey, check out the balls on Timekiller. How many in your guild? Link to guild site? I guess you want to fix the numbers for this “GvG” with him, or should he just round up 60 people and steamroll you because, you know, numbers should always win?

He’s welcome to round up 60 players and try to steamroll us. If we only brought 20, I would expect to lose, even if all 60 enemies were previously PVE carebears. Like I said, there comes a certain point where skill shouldn’t trump numbers. And those odds are it.

I dont say all players dont have skills.. i just saying to win you dont have to have skill. You just need numbers. Even if that are players that dont know you should stop shooting at someone behind a reflection shield.

You were implying something awfully like “you don’t need skill to win ikittenerg”. So what I did, was I challenged you to zerg an organized group and see if you could win. Like you said, get a larger group and spam autoattack. I’m sure that will work out just fine for you when you face guilds like HB or RG. Want to test it out?

But even GvG is about running into another group with help of teleport or veil. Then cast everything you have. The only abilities that are a bit responsive to enemy actions are your heals(+waterfield) and stability… rest are all cast them when they are up..
Skill is about movement not realy how to use abilities.

uh…here…I’ll drop a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I asked everyone to read this in the OP. Please do. You don’t know enough to say that it takes no skill to win, only numbers.

I would like to see more reaction based abilities like cleaning ground targets you can place over enemy ground targets.. and stuff like buff(retaliation) removals and retaliation. So a counter ability for all abilities, so you need to react more on what happens around you.

There are…dude. Ground targets have red circles. Avoid them, it’s simple. If you can’t cross, get people to range them down. If guardians have reflect shields up, use your own ground targeting. Easy peasy.

Boon removal huh? Looks like you obviously don’t know what null field is, you’ve never used boon rip sigils, you’ve never explored thief trait trees, you’ve never played necromancer, etc. etc.

Like I said, you should probably learn a bit more about the game and its depth before you exclaim “no skill needed here!”

Master of Timespace.2548:

uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.

And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.

Exactly what I said: this game is pro-noob and pro-carebear because that way item mall sells better.

You want a practically dead game with only hardcore players and no one buying? Gw2 isn’t for you, please move on.

The thing I like about WvW is that as in a real war a host of non-battle related things matter. Look at a server like sorrow’a furnace, which has a large population but is stuck in the lower Tiers. The issue with a server like that isn’t just manpower, it’s morale. There are too few effective leaders and folks get demoralized so they don’t come out (at least when I was on the server) creating a negative feedback loop. You see this on higher Tier servers as well, where the week is often won in the first 48 hours. If it goes poorly for your team, the bandwagoneers all do PvE that week and don’t come back. It is incredibly rare for any server to come back from a weekend deficit for this reason. In general the population imbalance is not as extreme as folks make it out to be. The real question people need to be asking isn’t “How do I break the zerg” but rather “how do I motivate my own server’s population to come out?”

The answer to this is pretty simple: Folks will come out if you make it fun, even if you are losing. How do you make it fun? Competent leadership helps a lot. Server voice comms as well. Don’t rage over voice coms if you are losing, laugh a lot, even in the face of defeat. View defeats as learning experiences, praise folks for good work. Set up a positive feedback loop. This is a game, folks are playing for entertainment, no on wants to listen to you rage-spooge because some idiot set up the wrong build order in garrison on reset. make fun of that person, but don’t act like his noob mistake is going to cost you the week (even if it does).

Servers can win against superior numbers but it requires strong and active leadership to do so. A bunch of pubbies running around getting slaughtered won’t do anything. You can set up any keep and most towers into a siege-out deathtrap that may eventually be taken by a large enough zerg but at the price of a LOT of loot bags. (Yay loot). I don’t mind losing a tower if I got 50 loot bags out of the scenario. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns, fighting 3 to 1 numbers sucks and certain servers have really bad bald spots during particular time zones. Know where your weak spots are and set up a defense during those time periods you are week and a good offensive in the time slots you are strong.

TLDR: Instead of focusing on population imbalances focus on morale and leadership, you will be surprised how far that gets you.

Zumy.6318:

Parthis.2091:

@Teamkiller.4315 That’s a lot of words to reiterate your point; yes, I get it, you think that 40 people should win be default because they’re 40 people. No tactics, no skill, no thought. Specs don’t matter, builds don’t matter, weapon choices don’t matter, the environment doesn’t matter. Ball up, spam that #1 and loot…

… for the good of the game?

Hah.

Yes, and he is right. At the point eight ppl cannot kill one skilled (nonthief)player this game will start losing their casual players.
Why? Because ppl already accused me and my team for cheating at some points and it was just af 5vs15.

In everty MMO, there is a casual base and ambitious playerbase.
Almost everyone in my guild has played all characters in tpvp just to see what they are able too, what the builds are, what the weaknes is, etc. A casual player wont do this and will see cheats everywhere. Now figure the situation when we(usually 2 mes, 2 guard, 1 warrior/ele (stun)) start melting zergs of 50 just because we know how to deliver 40k damage in 3 seconds? To cc-ed ppl that maybe dont use any stunbreaking skills or dps avoiding skills like f4 shatter because the dont usually need it in a blob.
Now guess who will build zerghunting saetups and who will stop playing.
And also guess what part of the game wont get any love anymore because casuals just will get kitten and it will lose the attention of those casuals.

The ‘casuals’ argument is weak though. Not all casuals stay casual, and not all casuals work in isolation. Map chat is full of ‘casuals’ reporting enemy guild movements, and guilds responding. Anet are smart enough to ease the impact on casual players.

Also, there are MANY suggestions on how to handle AoE damage without a cap. Damage that degrades from the epicentre to the edges of the area is highly effective in other, older, games. The point is GW2 went live. WubWub was played. AoE damage was strong. Solution? Cap it. The laziest, easiest of all solutions. AoE damage IS being nerfed. Your 40k won’t be 40k.

As the game stands there is no reliable counter to a group of >5, no matter how many players you have… so the lowest base gameplay becomes the standard for the majority, even for the elitists.

Teamkiller.4315:

Master of Timespace.2548:

uh…yes. 8v1 odds the 8 should win by default. Again, i’ve seen situations where the outnumbered side wins those odds, but it should be very very rare.

And yes, it’s for the good of the game. You want to have a population that is happy. While the 5 that got wiped may begrudgingly complain about numbers, they are not likely to quit the game because the fact that they run in such disadvantageous numbers in a gamemode that encourages large grouping shows that they obviously still enjoy it. If you don’t, then quit and stop complaining, go to another game because Gw2 WvW is obviously not fun for you and games are played for enjoyment.

Exactly what I said: this game is pro-noob and pro-carebear because that way item mall sells better.

You want a practically dead game with only hardcore players and no one buying? Gw2 isn’t for you, please move on.

Dead or crap? Does it even matter? But your point is solid. Nowdays devs have to dumb everything down in order to please the CoD generation.

It sounds like almost no one in this thread likes to wvw………….

lol…. There is no skill in AoEing a choke point, and killing dozens, even hundreds of players.

We did it with Bright Wizzards, and there is no way in hell I want to see something THAT silly in this game.

The ‘casuals’ argument is weak though. Not all casuals stay casual, and not all casuals work in isolation. Map chat is full of ‘casuals’ reporting enemy guild movements, and guilds responding. Anet are smart enough to ease the impact on casual players.

And not all casuals like working in groups of <5. In fact, the fact that most choose to run with the zerg should show you how much they appreciate that there is a zerg there to pick them up when they make mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that the 40+ people a squad of elite is supposed to wipe isn’t actually made of people but rather dumb bots.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Also, there are MANY suggestions on how to handle AoE damage without a cap. Damage that degrades from the epicentre to the edges of the area is highly effective in other, older, games. The point is GW2 went live. WubWub was played. AoE damage was strong. Solution? Cap it. The laziest, easiest of all solutions. AoE damage IS being nerfed. Your 40k won’t be 40k.

Yet the idea of removing boon cap is rejected altogether?

Why not throw some ideas for that around as well? Decreased duration of boons from the epicentre to the edges. But of course, removing aoe boon cap would obviously help zergs so no it can never happen. Never help groups > 5 even if indirectly

As the game stands there is no reliable counter to a group of >5, no matter how many players you have… so the lowest base gameplay becomes the standard for the majority, even for the elitists.

Again, I refer you to this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I don’t know if you are joking or not, but you definitely need to play more guild wars two.

@Teamkiller guess you never played in higher tiers? Where one big blob (80+)takes everything.. Splitting up and attack multiple towers like you said : good luck with that zerg will be there before you can take it and even if you do, you will loose the T1 real fast because they can even without rams etc, pewpew the door down real fast.
Its a game with only 1 tactic that needs no skill.

And i know about the nullfield and the necro skills , but again it are skills you use right at the start of the battle same as the Time warp and other skills. Its not wait till enemy does X..

And our guild fight RG many times even won some when they werent that big yet.. Think they have over 40 people now??

And a game like Counter strike that is skill based has active players for many many years without realy changing anything.. While none skill games get booring realy fast and need expensions.
A skill based game keeps fun because you(your group) wants to become better and better (not with getting better gear etc… but by practising).
Playing harder oponents until you finaly manage to beat them.
But thats the problem.. these days people give up to fast and dont want to get better(or loose ever).
They want to put one hand in their pants and play the game without getting the risk to ever loose. They want games where someone more stupid then a monkey and who can only bang his head on the keyboard still can win.

Well the whole zerg situation is like:

Never ending story ;]

AoN groups are structured to totally decimate unorganized groups, it’s not some sort of unique skill level that they possess (and spamming the Dunning-Kruger wiki link makes me think that you yourself are suffering from it, as the whole point of it is that the more skilled you are, the LESS confidence you have in your abilities). AoN groups are pretty easily countered by not being an idiot and letting them draw you into an open field battle that they have optimized their groups for. Their groups tend to run very specific builds designed to support each other and they are using voice comms to coordinate movement. If you are not in a group with that level of organization don’t play their game.

While they are running around ganking noobs focus on taking objectives, in general groups like AoN hate PvDoor. Only engage them if you have a group of similar minded folks coordinating on voice comms. If you see them withdrawing let them withdraw, don’t chase. What they are beating you with is superior organization. Organization in WvW will ALWAYS be greater that your individual skill. I would greatly prefer a group of mediocre players in voice comms over super elite duelers who aren’t.

Culling will have a positive impact for the small group, as we will now be able to see at a glance how many people we are fighting, not guessing like we do now based on culling rate of the front line.

I do not think you need to remove the 5 man AoE cap limit, might be worth testing 10 person cap, but overall I do not think the change is needed. We certainly do not need it. A few minor tweeks to the downed system would have a much larger impact.

AoN needs zergs, or we would be bored.

Dutchares.6084:

@Teamkiller guess you never played in higher tiers? Where one big blob (80+)takes everything.. Splitting up and attack multiple towers like you said : good luck with that zerg will be there before you can take it and even if you do, you will loose the T1 real fast because they can even without rams etc, pewpew the door down real fast.
Its a game with only 1 tactic that needs no skill.

I’ve played in SoR (currently T1), IoJ (currently T5), and FA (currently T2, and my current server).

So yes, I have played in higher tier servers, and no, two groups of 20 beats one group of 50 in ppt. While neither stands a chance in open field combat unless they unite they can keep avoiding or feinting the larger zerg, or even wiping to them (delaying them) while their friends cap something. You know what that does? Sure, it’s a field victory for the large zerg but int the end WvW is about points, and 2 groups of 20 will get more points than one group of 50.

You might not like the fact that you’re not winning any fights, but you’re winning in the score. But you seem to only care about wiping larger numbers with your subjectively self determined better amount of skill.

And i know about the nullfield and the necro skills , but again it are skills you use right at the start of the battle same as the Time warp and other skills. Its not wait till enemy does X..

Right, because people who play mesmers are kinda mentally challenged and obviously use null field on enemies that haven’t stacked any boons on. At all. Oh, and guardians lay down walls of reflection against melee trains, and elementalists churn bomb into ranger pets. Obviously.

Right.

You keep insulting everyone who actually does run organized groups.

And our guild fight RG many times even won some when they werent that big yet.. Think they have over 40 people now??

Stop bragging; you COMPLETELY missed the point. What YOU claimed was that it takes no skill, only numbers and spamming autoattack 1 to win. So I challenge you to face an organized guild (specifically, I invited you to challenge our guild to gvg; I cannot do so because I hold no position other than just member status) and do exactly that. Spam autoattack only and see if you don’t wipe within the first 30 seconds.

And a game like Counter strike that is skill based has active players for many many years without realy changing anything.. While none skill games get booring realy fast and need expensions.

AFAIK in counterstrike beating 8v1 odds is extremely rare, especially if it’s an engagement where it’s 8v1 all at once, like it should be. Similarly, it’s also extremely rare in Gw2. Like it should be.

A skill based game keeps fun because you(your group) wants to become better and better (not with getting better gear etc… but by practising).
Playing harder oponents until you finaly manage to beat them.
But thats the problem.. these days people give up to fast and dont want to get better(or loose ever).
They want to put one hand in their pants and play the game without getting the risk to ever loose. They want games where someone more stupid then a monkey and who can only bang his head on the keyboard still can win.

Right, I don’t want most of the people in Gw2 to start saying things like this, and I want the game to remain fun, not full of people who think like you and look down upon newer players thinking your 5 man will wipe their 40 man JUST because they’re new. Stop thinking like this.

Zerg isn’t the problem. Lag and culling is.

Teamkiller.4315:

The ‘casuals’ argument is weak though. Not all casuals stay casual, and not all casuals work in isolation. Map chat is full of ‘casuals’ reporting enemy guild movements, and guilds responding. Anet are smart enough to ease the impact on casual players.

And not all casuals like working in groups of <5. In fact, the fact that most choose to run with the zerg should show you how much they appreciate that there is a zerg there to pick them up when they make mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that the 40+ people a squad of elite is supposed to wipe isn’t actually made of people but rather dumb bots.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Also, there are MANY suggestions on how to handle AoE damage without a cap. Damage that degrades from the epicentre to the edges of the area is highly effective in other, older, games. The point is GW2 went live. WubWub was played. AoE damage was strong. Solution? Cap it. The laziest, easiest of all solutions. AoE damage IS being nerfed. Your 40k won’t be 40k.

Yet the idea of removing boon cap is rejected altogether?

Why not throw some ideas for that around as well? Decreased duration of boons from the epicentre to the edges. But of course, removing aoe boon cap would obviously help zergs so no it can never happen. Never help groups > 5 even if indirectly

As the game stands there is no reliable counter to a group of >5, no matter how many players you have… so the lowest base gameplay becomes the standard for the majority, even for the elitists.

Again, I refer you to this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I don’t know if you are joking or not, but you definitely need to play more guild wars two.

1). I have no problem with the Zerg itself. Removing caps benefits the zerg too. Smaller groups should have counters to bigger groups. 8 to 1 odds is still decent odds if you have a say in the process. The odds change as the fight progresses. It should not be easy, but it should be knowable and achievable.
2). I’m in favour of removing the boon cap too. You’d have known that if you bothered to actually READ what people are writing as opposed to taking your crusader stance for the casual man. You big ole hero you.
3). Keep quoting Dunning-Kruger. The irony of your incessant spamming and elitist attitude, coupled with the “Come at me with some GvG y’all!” is so very, very funny.

I’m in favour of removing AoE caps. Both damaging and boons. I’m in favour of lowering AoE damage. I’m in favour of changes to this game that moves it away from zerg-optimal (casual or hardcore, organised or unorganised).

Every single post you’ve made can be boiled down to;
* Bigger numbers should always win just because they’re bigger.
* A video showing a small group killing quite a few players. Not a zerg, not a ball, a stream of players. That is not representative of the issues being discussed here.
* A link to a theory on self-perception of skill.

Here’s the counter; accept the fact that others feel differently.

@Teamkiller

Realy teamkiller you dont get my point…
I dont want a game where smaller numbers kills bigger numbers..
My guild ignores most smaller groups or solo players.(soemtimes they attack us)
I want a game that is skilled based and were people getting better by playing and practising. Were being skilled/organised get rewarded. (or be at least in top of a ranking → not that i ever will be in that ranking, but its a nice goal)

The guild i am in isnt afraid to fight larger groups but prefer to fight other organised groups (and because of how the game is now: you need a very large zerg to win. Maybe this will change with fix of culling and ability lag.. so groups of like 40 can win from 80+ groups because they can use more then the auto attack)
But more and more organised groups are already grouping up with other groups because they want to have most points, instead of good battles.
So there are less and lesss organised groups to fight and more and more unskilled zergs of people who forget to play their toons because they are used to be only able to do autoattack.

Parthis.2091:

Teamkiller.4315:

The ‘casuals’ argument is weak though. Not all casuals stay casual, and not all casuals work in isolation. Map chat is full of ‘casuals’ reporting enemy guild movements, and guilds responding. Anet are smart enough to ease the impact on casual players.

And not all casuals like working in groups of <5. In fact, the fact that most choose to run with the zerg should show you how much they appreciate that there is a zerg there to pick them up when they make mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that the 40+ people a squad of elite is supposed to wipe isn’t actually made of people but rather dumb bots.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Also, there are MANY suggestions on how to handle AoE damage without a cap. Damage that degrades from the epicentre to the edges of the area is highly effective in other, older, games. The point is GW2 went live. WubWub was played. AoE damage was strong. Solution? Cap it. The laziest, easiest of all solutions. AoE damage IS being nerfed. Your 40k won’t be 40k.

Yet the idea of removing boon cap is rejected altogether?

Why not throw some ideas for that around as well? Decreased duration of boons from the epicentre to the edges. But of course, removing aoe boon cap would obviously help zergs so no it can never happen. Never help groups > 5 even if indirectly

As the game stands there is no reliable counter to a group of >5, no matter how many players you have… so the lowest base gameplay becomes the standard for the majority, even for the elitists.

Again, I refer you to this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I don’t know if you are joking or not, but you definitely need to play more guild wars two.

1). I have no problem with the Zerg itself. Removing caps benefits the zerg too. Smaller groups should have counters to bigger groups. 8 to 1 odds is still decent odds if you have a say in the process. The odds change as the fight progresses. It should not be easy, but it should be knowable and achievable.
2). I’m in favour of removing the boon cap too. You’d have known that if you bothered to actually READ what people are writing as opposed to taking your crusader stance for the casual man. You big ole hero you.
3). Keep quoting Dunning-Kruger. The irony of your incessant spamming and elitist attitude, coupled with the “Come at me with some GvG y’all!” is so very, very funny.

I’m in favour of removing AoE caps. Both damaging and boons. I’m in favour of lowering AoE damage. I’m in favour of changes to this game that moves it away from zerg-optimal (casual or hardcore, organised or unorganised).

Every single post you’ve made can be boiled down to;
* Bigger numbers should always win just because they’re bigger.
* A video showing a small group killing quite a few players. Not a zerg, not a ball, a stream of players. That is not representative of the issues being discussed here.
* A link to a theory on self-perception of skill.

Here’s the counter; accept the fact that others feel differently.

Whats the point of the screenshot?