Truly running around like madmen in a blob capping a control point then zerging to another whilst the last control point is taken again is really just a joke. Whats the point of keeps and towers surrounded by walls and gates if peeps can just take them down with ease. It may as well just be a flag in a circle you capture.
Being able to die and just run back and back and back is also a joke. This is not pve and it isn’t spvp but it needs to be tougher than it is. Death needs to be a major factor in the game play here to stop it being near meaningless.
So whats the answer? Heres my idea..
SIEGE DEVICES
Devices must be crafted now.
One way is by the mystic forge in that device blueprints are now part of a recipe only for making devices in the mystic forge and do not fall anymore in loot from enemies. Maybe a keep or tower has a chest which contains a few of these blueprints so this could be a way of rewarding a good takeover.
OR
The above idea except an expensive crafting skill for siege weapons is created and crafting them is done in a players garrison or keep whilst they own it instead of the forge. As above crafting will still be very costly.
PLUS
The mastery skill for using siege items also needs to be much more expensive and the item must be useless without a rank in it and needs three ranks to be effective as it is for one rank right now.
WALLS
These must be unaffected by hand weapons including grenades.
GATES
Should still be easily affected by hand weapons.
SIEGE DAMAGE ON PLAYERS
This needs increased so increased so a gate that can be easily taken down can still be an effective choke point for those who control the castle. Also it allows a lesser amount of players necessary to hold a keep or tower and even if a horde takes it they sustain a lot more damage in doing so.
DEATH
This needs to cost and not by paying money to use a waypoint as too many rich folks have plenty gold to ignore this. There needs to be a debilitation to skills that increases by the amount of time a person dies (not downed). Also when when a person dies they have to use a waypoint and they must be out the game for five minutes. Call this hospital time.
ALARMS
Crossed swords should only appear after 5 minutes of battle so that having people defending towers, keeps, camps, and communicating is all that more important.
CONCLUSION
This is to make players think more in battle so that good communications is important and strategy and tactics are bit more complicated in choosing where and when to fight and when a fortification is taken it requires more time, thought and resources to retake.
It may just be an opinion but right now WvW is a joke and needs changes.
Are you on a server with many or few WvW? You do seem a little frustrated or want to punish certain players.
WvW would interest me less with you’re changes as it would be much slower. Also it would be more complicated. Not that I couldn’t adjust or play then, but it wouldn’t be the kind of game I want to play when I get home from work or study.
SIEGE DEVICES
Devices must be crafted now.
One way is by the mystic forge in that device blueprints are now part of a recipe only for making devices in the mystic forge and do not fall anymore in loot from enemies. Maybe a keep or tower has a chest which contains a few of these blueprints so this could be a way of rewarding a good takeover.
OR
The above idea except an expensive crafting skill for siege weapons is created and crafting them is done in a players garrison or keep whilst they own it instead of the forge. As above crafting will still be very costly.
Have you ever commanded before? Do you know how many blueprints people throw in a day? Making it much more expensive than it already is would be a very limiting factor in who leads. Most people spend all of their time in WvW, yes, you make some gold, but it’s not like you’re rolling in huge pools of gold.
The mastery skill for using siege items also needs to be much more expensive and the item must be useless without a rank in it and needs three ranks to be effective as it is for one rank right now.
I’m okay with this, getting 3 in ram mastery is really easy and seems rather over-powered.
WALLS
These must be unaffected by hand weapons including grenades.
GATES
Should still be easily affected by hand weapons.
This already exists and don’t think they’d change it, although many might agree that reinforced gates should be immune to player damage.
SIEGE DAMAGE ON PLAYERS
This needs increased so increased so a gate that can be easily taken down can still be an effective choke point for those who control the castle. Also it allows a lesser amount of players necessary to hold a keep or tower and even if a horde takes it they sustain a lot more damage in doing so.
Chokes are already pretty viable as long as done correctly. Have you ever tried getting into an extremely sieged up Hills lord room?
DEATH
This needs to cost and not by paying money to use a waypoint as too many rich folks have plenty gold to ignore this. There needs to be a debilitation to skills that increases by the amount of time a person dies (not downed). Also when when a person dies they have to use a waypoint and they must be out the game for five minutes. Call this hospital time.
5 minutes is an extremely long time. Not to mention this would promote turtling and zerging even more so that you never enter a fight you know you can’t win. The one thing you don’t want to do with a game is to prevent people from playing.
ALARMS
Crossed swords should only appear after 5 minutes of battle so that having people defending towers, keeps, camps, and communicating is all that more important.
You can take a fortified keep in under 5 minutes. Not every server has the numbers to afford scouts in every objective at all times, it’s already bad enough that there’s a 30 second lag before the swords appear.
CONCLUSION
This is to make players think more in battle so that good communications is important and strategy and tactics are bit more complicated in choosing where and when to fight and when a fortification is taken it requires more time, thought and resources to retake.
It may just be an opinion but right now WvW is a joke and needs changes.
I respect you coming up with ideas and trying to think outside of the box in making WvW more than just a mindless zergball. I hope you don’t get the idea that I was simply trying to shoot everything down without reading, but give my personal constructive feedback to your ideas.
Are you on a server with many or few WvW? You do seem a little frustrated or want to punish certain players.
WvW would interest me less with you’re changes as it would be much slower. Also it would be more complicated. Not that I couldn’t adjust or play then, but it wouldn’t be the kind of game I want to play when I get home from work or study.
Its not about punishment. As I said right now the way it is played could be played without fortifications and just control points that are flags stuck in the ground. I understand some players want to play WvW like a team death match but thats not supposed to be what WvW is. For that you can play sPvP and if the teams in sPvP are not big enough then that’s what you should ask for to be changed then I think then we can all be happy.
Few things.
Death Penalties, while I have nostalgic memories of the crippling punishments that really made a death hurt. It’s just not really a good idea. I played EQ back in the day, we could steal 1 peice of loot if we killed another player, as well as taking all the gold they had on them. It was good and bad. It made things matter, but it often made the game too stressful to really want to try and do things.
Also with that, there’s always my main reason for hating things like killstreak rewards. Do we really need to punish people already losing, or promote people who are already winning? I don’t think so.
The current death penalty punishes with time and travel. It’s enough for me to really really not want to die. A crippling death penalty would lead to less head to head clashes, and less killing honestly. Everyone would play safe. Personally I may log into WvW see it’s not the best commander and just leave because it’s not worth it if i’m going to constantly be stuck with that death penalty.
As for the rest, IMO it’s fine. Just last night we were turned back multiple times thanks to a good supply of arrowcarts.
What you suggest is a much more defensive struggle that personally I’d find boring. I like doing stupid things that result in a death, sometimes that’s fun. Other times I’m trying my hardest not to die while fighting the opponent. then even other times I’m just a body in the zerg taking towers.
I like the idea of a death penalty. Would be funny if you went to EOTM when you died…sort of like going to purgatory…for the 5 minute “Hospital” time out.
It would add another element to tactics and strategy…servers will better kill rates would actually be at an advantage.
Are you on a server with many or few WvW? You do seem a little frustrated or want to punish certain players.
WvW would interest me less with you’re changes as it would be much slower. Also it would be more complicated. Not that I couldn’t adjust or play then, but it wouldn’t be the kind of game I want to play when I get home from work or study.
Its not about punishment. As I said right now the way it is played could be played without fortifications and just control points that are flags stuck in the ground. I understand some players want to play WvW like a team death match but thats not supposed to be what WvW is. For that you can play sPvP and if the teams in sPvP are not big enough then that’s what you should ask for to be changed then I think then we can all be happy.
The way I see it WvW is for everything.
You have the people who want small groups just going around and killing people. That works great in lots of areas.
You have people who just want to zerg and capture towers, that’s there.
On my server at least we have an amazing guild who runs a scout team that controls and upgrades our towers, providing defense, warning, and a stronger tower.
Then there are those that are just there for the karma, great in EoTM but not bad in other places either if you’re moving. Personally I LOVE that dragonite every time we capture a keep.
It just seems like whatever playstyle you are there is an option that you can choose on how you approach WvW.
I think WvW is fine as is in open field battle (minus the skill lag), but definitely defending needs ton of work to make it both viable and rewarding. I can understand the numbers advantage in open field battle, but the number should be negligible when it comes to defending structures. There needs to be some sort of distinct advantage for being inside the structure and defending it.
I think they could easily do this by just adding a few more upgrades to the structures themselves. Things like:
- New location for cannons out of reach of player attacks and arrow carts from outside the structure. These cannons should have a clear shot at rams.
- Upgrade allowing players standing in the keep and on walls do deal 50% more damage while receiving 50% less damage.
- A not so popular idea i’m sure; an upgrade doubling all siege damage in the structure
- Upgrade making the current champion legendary, then a further upgrade placing a second legendary NPC in the structure
- Upgrade to place NPC’s on siege until players boot them off.
These are just to name a few; things that will have to make the attacking force think long and hard before attacking a specific structure, instead of the Ram spam knock down the door.
I respect you coming up with ideas and trying to think outside of the box in making WvW more than just a mindless zergball. I hope you don’t get the idea that I was simply trying to shoot everything down without reading, but give my personal constructive feedback to your ideas.
I have only respect for your reply.
I know a fortification can be easily taken in under five minutes but the crossed swords appearing shoudnt be necessary if players are in in attendance and shout on chat. The idea for a much longer (maybe not 5 minutes) timer before crossed swords appear is to make it harder for zergs to move off and leave a fortification completely empty without a small mob coming from behind and pushing through the gate before the big mob comes back. Keeping scouts and defenders will be all that more important and this means that big zergs may split up a little and also stop being so meaningful.
As for siege weapons big WvW guilds can drop them like wrappers from a bag of sweets. They need to be less easy to place and use at the best rank and quality of siege but more meaningful when time is taken to perfect them and use them.
As for the death penalty it should be time limited and effective in the way that a mob cant eventually win a fight just by keeping returning to it. Its not about punishing a loser its about a mob using skill and knowledge to make a good call whether a particular fight is worth it or to ask and wait for reinforcements or take their battle elsewhere.
During the 5 minute hospital penalty I would say you can still repair, sell and buy and maybe even travel to a fight but you cant actually fight until that timer is up but you can die again.
There are often big queues at peak times for WvW so Im sure there are plenty players who will like a more strategic, tactical game There is no reason I can see why sPvP cant allow for large team, guild, server death matches, capture the flags and control points and everyone is then happy.
I know a fortification can be easily taken in under five minutes but the crossed swords appearing shoudnt be necessary if players are in in attendance and shout on chat. The idea for a much longer (maybe not 5 minutes) timer before crossed swords appear is to make it harder for zergs to move off and leave a fortification completely empty without a small mob coming from behind and pushing through the gate before the big mob comes back. Keeping scouts and defenders will be all that more important and this means that big zergs may split up a little and also stop being so meaningful.
- unless there are changes to the reward system, defense will continue to fall by the wayside
As for siege weapons big WvW guilds can drop them like wrappers from a bag of sweets. They need to be less easy to place and use at the best rank and quality of siege but more meaningful when time is taken to perfect them and use them.
As for the death penalty it should be time limited and effective in the way that a mob cant eventually win a fight just by keeping returning to it. Its not about punishing a loser its about a mob using skill and knowledge to make a good call whether a particular fight is worth it or to ask and wait for reinforcements or take their battle elsewhere.
During the 5 minute hospital penalty I would say you can still repair, sell and buy and maybe even travel to a fight but you cant actually fight until that timer is up but you can die again.
I am a leader of a small guild(run less than 10), the changes you propose to both siege and death penalty will pretty much render wvw useless to us. We like to take towers and keeps (or at least try), it already takes a long time for us to do so, why should we be further penalized to play the game as we enjoy.
(edited by Adahilia.3678)
Your suggestion on-DEATH
“This needs to cost and not by paying money to use a waypoint as too many rich folks have plenty gold to ignore this. There needs to be a debilitation to skills that increases by the amount of time a person dies (not downed). Also when when a person dies they have to use a waypoint and they must be out the game for five minutes. Call this hospital time.”
I Completely disagree, I did not read your other points. Hospital time as you call it makes for very uninteresting gameplay. More than Likely you will die because 5 people decided to gank you or you just got steam rolled by a zerg, why should I be punished for losing in an unfair fight. It’s not like you can always see it coming either, I’ve seen zergs stealth or portal just to gank like two people. [/quote]
I respect you coming up with ideas and trying to think outside of the box in making WvW more than just a mindless zergball. I hope you don’t get the idea that I was simply trying to shoot everything down without reading, but give my personal constructive feedback to your ideas.
I have only respect for your reply.
I know a fortification can be easily taken in under five minutes but the crossed swords appearing shoudnt be necessary if players are in in attendance and shout on chat. The idea for a much longer (maybe not 5 minutes) timer before crossed swords appear is to make it harder for zergs to move off and leave a fortification completely empty without a small mob coming from behind and pushing through the gate before the big mob comes back. Keeping scouts and defenders will be all that more important and this means that big zergs may split up a little and also stop being so meaningful.
As for siege weapons big WvW guilds can drop them like wrappers from a bag of sweets. They need to be less easy to place and use at the best rank and quality of siege but more meaningful when time is taken to perfect them and use them.
As for the death penalty it should be time limited and effective in the way that a mob cant eventually win a fight just by keeping returning to it. Its not about punishing a loser its about a mob using skill and knowledge to make a good call whether a particular fight is worth it or to ask and wait for reinforcements or take their battle elsewhere.
During the 5 minute hospital penalty I would say you can still repair, sell and buy and maybe even travel to a fight but you cant actually fight until that timer is up but you can die again.
There are often big queues at peak times for WvW so Im sure there are plenty players who will like a more strategic, tactical game There is no reason I can see why sPvP cant allow for large team, guild, server death matches, capture the flags and control points and everyone is then happy.
My only issue with these is that they are all hard-counters to big servers and big zergs, but that is not the only playstyle that WvW adheres to and I think a lot of these really detriment different styles of play or even servers with lower population. In regards to the swords not popping on a tower immediately in order to encourage scouting, it would seem much more beneficial to just reward scouting in general rather than hurt servers who may not have more than 3 people on a map. However, and this has come up many times, it’s hard to put a form of tracking on things that people do that are beneficial but aren’t exactly tangible to reward, such as scouting. In my opinion, they are just things that should be practiced and praised on your server because they will always help (if you have a scout you don’t have to zerg a tapper when you can do more important things).
I agree with making some of the towers and castles more upgradeable so as to make them a bit tougher to take if they’re upgraded to the max.
Other than that, I think WvW is quite good. As another person who posted here said, lots of people play WvW in lots of different ways, and the current WvW works pretty well in suiting all those different ways.
As far as a stronger death penalty……HUGE disagreement on that one. If anything, maybe a bigger financial penalty to repair gear(20%-40% more), but that’s all. When I played Dark Age of Camelot years ago, they had a ‘death shade’ thing that made you a tad weaker after a WvW death for a small amount of time. It didn’t keep you from jumping right back into the battle after porting back to your start point, but it did make you a bit weaker for a short period of time until the death shade timer completed…..that seemed to work ok, altho I really like GW2’s death penalty as is.
Keeping people from playing as a death penalty would be a disastrous idea, imo. I really think that would make quite a few people quit the game in frustration, as that kind of penalty is far too serious for a game. EQ death penalty was bad enough…..the OP’s idea would be far, far worse, imo.
Eh, the first fix to WvW really needs to be seperating out “GvG” and “WvW”. Apparently, Obsidian Sanctum wasn’t enough, as evidenced by this thread: http://www.gw2wvw.net/topic/season-2-week-2-gold-blackgate-sea-sorrows-tarnished-coast?page=20
No, that is not a link to a 4chan death threat thread, although it’s easy to make that mistake. That is a small group of people from 2 servers completely losing their freaking minds because someone interrupted a private GvG that they were having on one of the Borderlands. In an open-world PvP zone. This is the kind of thing that is just NEVER going to work; we all learned 8 years ago from WoW that YOU CANNOT HAVE A PRIVATE PARTY IN AN OPEN-WORLD PVP ZONE:
So Step 1 to fixing WvW, imo, is to simply create a Private Arena for GvG only, not an open world area, but something more like GvG in GW1, or even something closer to 15 v 15 sPvP, even, but with NO Capture Points, just an open arena. That should at least cut down on the instances of people being threatened with stomache cancer for PvPing in a PvP zone, or whatever ridiculousness is going on in the thread linked above.
After that’s done, we can start talking about what changes need to be made to siege or the Downed State or whatever.
This is not pve and it isn’t spvp but it needs to be tougher than it is. Death needs to be a major factor in the game play here to stop it being near meaningless.
Agree.
WALLS
These must be unaffected by hand weapons including grenades.
Agree.
GATES
Should still be easily affected by hand weapons.
Disagree; or, rather, I propose a compromise. The gate of a tier 1 or tier 2 fortification can still be damaged by players skills. Once a tower, keep, or Stonemist Castle receive the “Fortify” upgrade, the gate can no longer be damaged by player skills. This gives incentive to attackers to lay siege to the objective before that upgrade is complete and defenders the incentive to actually upgrade it to tier 3.
DEATH
This needs to cost and not by paying money to use a waypoint as too many rich folks have plenty gold to ignore this. There needs to be a debilitation to skills that increases by the amount of time a person dies (not downed). Also when when a person dies they have to use a waypoint and they must be out the game for five minutes. Call this hospital time.
Strongly disagree. I’m in favor of eliminating the ability to resurrect allies while in combat per suggestions made in this thread. I also agree defeat should carry a greater consequence in WvW than it currently does. Preventing players from playing for 5 minutes would not be a good idea, though.
ArenaNet made it very clear in blog posts during the game’s development that one of their goals is to keep players playing the game rather than sitting on the sidelines. It’s unlikely any suggestion running counter to that philosophy would ever be implemented.
(edited by Kraag Deadsoul.2789)
Hmmmm…..not being able to resurrect players in WvW might be a decent idea. Takes them out of the battle for a little bit, but doesn’t over penalize them.
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