Guild Wars 2

So, I just had this idea on how to rework outnumbered pips occur to me out of the blue.

Step 1: Remove pips from the Outnumbered buff and return Outnumbered to it’s previous state. It will function exactly as it has been on a map by map basis.

Step 2: Introduce a new Team Outnumbered buff that takes all four maps into account. This buff would also be tiered based on how badly outnumbered you are as a team, ranging from minor to overwhelming. The entire purpose of this new buff is for pips, rewarding anywhere from +1 to +5 based on the current tier of the buff.

The benefits:
-Removes Outnumbered toxicity by taking away the need to seek out outnumbered maps. People will no longer be upset when the buff disappears.
-Encourages people to play on any map they want, without having to worry about how pip income is affected.
-The ENTIRE team gets the benefit of outnumbered pips. This means you can play full maps and still get outnumbered pips if the other maps have less population. Response teams and players who switch maps often can also do so without worrying about pips.

I would write in all caps, but I’m not allowed…

Stop focusing on the pips. Pips are not the issue… The issue is the low ticket amounts awarded for the time and effort, and the bad 175 weekly ticket cap.

Do you understand?

And this post is not directed at the ticket issue, AT ALL, so don’t come into this thread and belittle me in such a manner. Outnumbered pips ARE an issue, and that was the entire purpose of this particular thread. Go to other threads to talk about tickets.

The pip system is used to earn what?

Are pips used to purchase rewards?

The true issue, “toxicity”, reasons why players are “upset”… has to do with ticket stuff, not pips. You and a hundred other players don’t seem to understand…

This is the official feedback thread on pip acquisition btw….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/first

Again, this thread is not about tickets, take your ticket crusade somewhere else.

The pip system is the tool used to earn the tickets, and so how people earn the pips is relevant to how the rewards are eventually earned. This thread is about the pip aspect, NOT tickets.

The Outnumbered system is widely acknowledged to be overpowered, and it’s counter-intuitive to how WvW should be played. If you’re not earning those +5 pips, it ruins the efficiency of which you earn tickets (Which again, the tickets is a separate issue.), so it leaves a bit of bitterness in players when they’re not getting that +5. You have people map hopping solely to get Outnumbered, you have people NOT making call-outs on outnumbered maps because they want to keep the buff. And, given how huge +5 pips are in that it can literally double to triple most players pip incomes, I don’t exactly blame them.

And I didn’t put this suggestion in the feedback thread because it’s not exactly ‘feedback’, it was a full suggestion to fix the issue that would have potentially been buried and ignored in a mega thread.

You’re accusing me of not understanding an issue that is not even the focus of this thread, and your hostility in your posts is not going to do any good in getting your point across.

We wouldn’t be having all these pip discussions if the ticket rewards were improved… but many don’t get that… I’m sure you’ll connect with that soon.

You should use the official thread on pip acquisition instead of bypassing it… That’s what’s it’s there for… “We have had quite a few threads posted about Pips over the last few days. In order to keep things organized, let’s use this single thread to discuss the topic moving forward.”

Good luck!

What you don’t seem to understand is that the entire system is composed of multiple parts. I don’t care if the reward is a thousand tickets, or a single ticket, this thread is talking about the cog in the system that addresses how you GET those tickets, and the tickets themselves are IRRELEVANT to this thread. You are still making assumptions that I don’t understand the system, when it seems that YOU are the one that fails to understand that even a perfect ticket reward system still relies on the pips to EARN the rewards. Two separate cogs.

The pip system has it’s flaws, I’m trying to make a suggestion to fix one of the flaws. The Outnumbered buff makes the difference between spending 20-24 hours in WvW per week without the buff, to 12 hours WITH the buff, at least when using my personal pip incomes for reference. I have other aspects of the game I want to play, and to more efficiently use my WvW time to make it so it doesn’t feel like a job I end up taking advantage of the outnumbered system as much as I can. What the Team buff I propose will do is distribute outnumbered pips to everyone on the team, no more map hopping, no more map silence, just playing what map you want without feeling like you’re being punished. The outnumbered pips should feel like a BONUS, not a REQUIREMENT for efficient ticket farming.

I’ll cross-post this to the mega thread, but I’d appreciate you stop hijacking the thread for your own purposes.

I like that this would solve the map hopping issue, and it’s certainly more fair for some players.

However I don’t feel ANet would like this idea, because I think they are trying to encourage the players spreading across all maps, and if this is a server buff, that would defeat this purpose.

My top concern about this buff is that it’s too random (and certainly a whole map is too large to consider, it’s not always accurate), and it’s too easy to manipulate. This is the issue from the beginning, it’s just that we don’t care because the buff doesn’t really have any effect.

Now it’s +5 pips, that’s a whole different story… I do certainly think that we need to do something about this. I don’t feel it’s healthy right now.

Outmanned pips are fine.

If you’re going to change anything just make it so you need to have been on the map for the previous tick to get Outmanned benefits.

Sarrs.4831:

Outmanned pips are fine.

If you’re going to change anything just make it so you need to have been on the map for the previous tick to get Outmanned benefits.

Doesn’t solve the issue of map hopping and silent call-outs. We need to solve the problem of people feeling like they have to seek and search for the buff, considering it necessary for efficiency when it should just be a bonus.

godfat.2604:

My top concern about this buff is that it’s too random (and certainly a whole map is too large to consider, it’s not always accurate), and it’s too easy to manipulate. This is the issue from the beginning, it’s just that we don’t care because the buff doesn’t really have any effect.

There’d be less randomness to a team outnumbered buff as it’d take into account all 4 maps, and it’d be tiered as well based on how badly you’re outnumbered. It’s a bit difficult to manipulate something like that without getting more people into WvW or making the other teams log off.

Slyther.1297:

…
The benefits:
-Removes Outnumbered toxicity by taking away the need to seek out outnumbered maps. People will no longer be upset when the buff disappears.
….

I disagree.

Your idea would increase toxic behavior and not remove it.

Currently we have a few people on one empty map who may be annoyed about losing the outnumbered buff.

With your idea we would have people on four maps who’ll lose the outnumbered buff:
A commander tags up.
“WTF, tag down you kitten commander, we don’t want to lose the buff.”

People shouldn’t get rewarded for their efforts to get a commander to rage quit, so that they may get some outnumbered pips.

Slyther.1297:

Sarrs.4831:

Outmanned pips are fine.

If you’re going to change anything just make it so you need to have been on the map for the previous tick to get Outmanned benefits.

Doesn’t solve the issue of map hopping and silent call-outs. We need to solve the problem of people feeling like they have to seek and search for the buff, considering it necessary for efficiency when it should just be a bonus.

I think the idea was good. It should reduce map hoping a lot since you would get no benefit from it until the end of the next tick.

So, done are the days of players magically hoping 10 sec before a tick to reep the Outmanned buff. They would have to stay on the map for an entire new tick to get something.

Slyther.1297:

What you don’t seem to understand is that the entire system is composed of multiple parts. I don’t care if the reward is a thousand tickets, or a single ticket, this thread is talking about the cog in the system that addresses how you GET those tickets, and the tickets themselves are IRRELEVANT to this thread. You are still making assumptions that I don’t understand the system, when it seems that YOU are the one that fails to understand that even a perfect ticket reward system still relies on the pips to EARN the rewards. Two separate cogs.

The pip system has it’s flaws, I’m trying to make a suggestion to fix one of the flaws. The Outnumbered buff makes the difference between spending 20-24 hours in WvW per week without the buff, to 12 hours WITH the buff, at least when using my personal pip incomes for reference. I have other aspects of the game I want to play, and to more efficiently use my WvW time to make it so it doesn’t feel like a job I end up taking advantage of the outnumbered system as much as I can. What the Team buff I propose will do is distribute outnumbered pips to everyone on the team, no more map hopping, no more map silence, just playing what map you want without feeling like you’re being punished. The outnumbered pips should feel like a BONUS, not a REQUIREMENT for efficient ticket farming.

I’ll cross-post this to the mega thread, but I’d appreciate you stop hijacking the thread for your own purposes.

The devs intentionally gave pip bonus on outnumbered maps as incentive for players to populate maps… Working as intended…

Pips are a means to ticket rewards… The ticket reward structure and weekly ticket limitations are the issues that causes this to “feel like a job”… it has nothing to do with pips…

Hijacking? You’re the one hijacking the wvw forums when you should be posting this stuff in the official thread. It was created so players would stop spamming hundreds of pip threads, like this one. You’re also unwilling to look at the real issue, and it has nothing to do with pip dispersal…

If you don’t want, or can’t handle, feedback and different perspectives, then don’t start a thread for the community to comment on.

I think both both Swagger & Slyther can agree on this:

The whole new system of Skirmish rewards and acquisition needs a version 2.0 to address several issues.

What does the current Outnumbered +5 buff do?
With the exception of a small part of players (those with e.g. +5 pips from rank, fighting for a server with a predominately 1st place) the +5 bonus is kind of essential to having a chance to be rewarded fairly for the time invested.
This currently leads players focusing on going for the buff at all costs (by map hopping, being silent on Outnumbered maps and staying on Outnumbered maps without participating in any team play activity)

What does the current number of awarded tickets do?
The amount of tickets you get rewarded in correlation to the time invested, feels out of balance, especially for those players that want to go for rewards fast. They want to be able to earn more tickets each week.

What could be done about Outnumbered?
1. All pips could go
This would take away the incentive to go to a “losing map” completely. The missing pips would have to be distributed to the world score (currently 1/2/3) if you don’t want the progression speed to drop significantly
2. The bonus gets reduced to make it less important
Reducing the +5 to +2 and increasing the world score to +2/3/+4 will award everybody in WvW with a better pip acquisition, reducing the need to go for the buff.
3. The +5 bonus gets stretched out over time (OP’s idea)
This is an attempt to be “fair” to those playing on an “underdog map” compared to map hoppers that only go to the map just before the scoring. It requires tracking each individual player on a timer though, which might not be technically feasible.

What could be done about tickets?
1. More tickets for everybody
The total number from Wood to Diamond chests could be increased (currently capped at 175 a week). This would mean everyone playing WvW would get more tickets over time.
2. More tickets for the dedicated players
The tickets for the dedicated players could be increased by deviating from the linear progression of tickets on the Mithril and Diamond chest by awarding 40 and 50 instead of 30 and 40.
3. Add bonus tickets to the repeatable Diamond chest.
I really can’t put down a number here, because I can not judge how many people actually repeat those several times at the end of the week. Does 5 sound reasonable?

Please put this in the Universal PIP thread. Thx

Slyther.1297:

Doesn’t solve the issue of map hopping and silent call-outs. We need to solve the problem of people feeling like they have to seek and search for the buff, considering it necessary for efficiency when it should just be a bonus.

- It does solve the issue of maphopping
- Silent call-outs are only an ‘issue’ in the context of maphopping
- People playing for Outmanned is an intended consequence of the mechanic

Rhiannon.1726:

With your idea we would have people on four maps who’ll lose the outnumbered buff:
A commander tags up.
“WTF, tag down you kitten commander, we don’t want to lose the buff.”

Two counterpoints
-A tag only serves to attract most players to a single point that are already playing. The act of tagging up does not magically make more players log in to WvW. Sure, players logging in and seeing a tag may stick around, but for the most part a tag simply pulls people around.
-Because my proposed buff is tier based, there’s no ‘on’ or ‘off’. For example, if your server is currently at +3 outnumbered tier, and a commander tagging up attracts enough players to drop it to +2, it’s only a loss of 1 pip. However, the outnumbered buff is meant to give rewards to disadvantaged teams, so the very act of having more players translates into a better fighting chance, and the potential to gain pips else where such as being able to compete score wise. More players generally means you get compensated with other rewards too, such as bags from fights and wxp from being able to take more valuable objectives. The intent is to change the outnumbered pips to a bonus, rather than something that has to be actively sought out and counter-intuitive to team play.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

So, done are the days of players magically hoping 10 sec before a tick to reep the Outmanned buff. They would have to stay on the map for an entire new tick to get something.

Map hopping would still be a thing, all this would do is change it from instant reward to “Oh, guess it’s not too bad waiting around for 5 minutes for more pips.”

Strider Pj.2193:

Please put this in the Universal PIP thread. Thx

I already did.

Slyther.1297:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

So, done are the days of players magically hoping 10 sec before a tick to reep the Outmanned buff. They would have to stay on the map for an entire new tick to get something.

Map hopping would still be a thing, all this would do is change it from instant reward to “Oh, guess it’s not too bad waiting around for 5 minutes for more pips.”

People who map hop like this do not strike me as patient individuals. I wouldn’t be surprised to see such a measure significantly regulate map hoping since the instant gratification would be gone.

The goal of the outnumbered is to draw people into a map that needs reinforcements. The old outnumbered buff didn’t cut it for most people. Most people aren’t going to spend time in game if they are not having fun or gaining anything for their time be that in anything that they value, kills, rank, loot, levels… People are prone to leave maps that are failing unless they have something to account for that time. If you go with play whatever map you want you again fail to cover the core issue which is to get more players on the outnumbered map. If map hoping is the issue, don’t reward players outnumbered points until they have been on the map for 10 minutes. Then there is no reason to map hop just to get rewarded on another map. We are seeing more people balancing the maps since there are more movement on different maps so this is working to some extent. As far as spreading the outnumbered and paying it out across all maps, that doesn’t encourage people to spread which is part of the goal. Would hate to see the side that is running max population get rewarded for zerging while the other servers are balanced across the maps. Risk/reward.

TheGrimm.5624:

The goal of the outnumbered is to draw people into a map that needs reinforcements. The old outnumbered buff didn’t cut it for most people. Most people aren’t going to spend time in game if they are not having fun or gaining anything for their time be that in anything that they value, kills, rank, loot, levels… People are prone to leave maps that are failing unless they have something to account for that time. If you go with play whatever map you want you again fail to cover the core issue which is to get more players on the outnumbered map. If map hoping is the issue, don’t reward players outnumbered points until they have been on the map for 10 minutes. Then there is no reason to map hop just to get rewarded on another map. We are seeing more people balancing the maps since there are more movement on different maps so this is working to some extent. As far as spreading the outnumbered and paying it out across all maps, that doesn’t encourage people to spread which is part of the goal. Would hate to see the side that is running max population get rewarded for zerging while the other servers are balanced across the maps. Risk/reward.

I totally agree with the intent. I, however, see a lot of last second hoppers parasites that have no intention to help the outnumbered map at all. They do not care about defending, or anything else for that matter, save the pips.

These people are the ones I wish Anet would send all skins by mail for free on the condition they forgot about playing WvW.

I think Outnumbered pips should be reduced to 2.

Solutions:
1. Increase required pips for chest by 5×. Reduce timer for participation to 1min. Makes it annoying to hop to less populated maps every 1 min.

2. Make Outnumbered buff like “Voluneer’s Blessing” (PvE volunteer to change overflow buff) and make it last for 5mins. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Volunteer%27s_Blessing

There is no problem. Its only a problem for the reward hunters which add little value to wvw play.

The pips are fine. If anything, add more tickets so the reward seekers can get their trinkets and leave so we can stop hearing about the darn outmanned pips.