Guild Wars 2

Reasons:
[Add self-approving text about how awesome this idea is here]

Concept:
- No Servers
- No Que’s
- No Scores
- Worthwile rewards.

How it Works:
- A player chooses a Faction when he first logs into WvW. Their names are of minor importance and up for discussion. Essentially, it’s green, blue, and red. Factions can not be switched, unless a reasonable gem-price got paid.
- The factions shuffle their color once per week (traditional Friday reset).
- All maps (EOTM, Desert / Alpine Border, EB) are reworked to be featured as accessible maps from the WvW interface. A player can choose to enter either of these maps to all times.
- All maps are instanced and create multiple copies depending on the current player-numbers wanting to play on them. The soft-player-cap per map / per faction is 50 players, that can only be excelled by 2 ways: A ) All other factions in this map reached the threshold / B ) People from other instances use the join map option to join this instance. Join map is only available for guild-members and party-members. The hardcap is 100 players.
- Once the softcap is reached, the que algorithm stops to allow people to join this map-instance from the WvW interface. If the softcap for all 3 factions is reached, the algorithm continues to fill the map to the hardcap. if the hardcap is reached, the join map-function and the algorithm are both deactivated.
- Unlike PvE, map-instances that loose too many players will not be closed. They continue to exist until the weekly reset or their current player-number reaches zero. The map-instances are ordered by the current player-numbers, and those with the highest numbers get filled first.

Rewards:
- Objectives don’t tick Score every 15min, they tick WxP. SM: 700 WxP / Keeps: 500 WxP / Towers: 350 WxP / Camps: 250 WXP. The tick is handed to all players that are currently assigned to this map-instance in a 15 min period. A player that switches the map-instance will not get rewarded for the next 2 ticks. Switching the map itself will not get punished.
- Reward tracks are introduced, exactly like the PvP ones. WxP also counts as progress in the reward-tracks. (How much progress you get for WxP is up for balancing).
- WvW gear becomes salvageable. Unlike other gear it does not give ectos or other materials back, but has a 100% chance to give runes and sigils back. Potentially it could reward a small amount of badges as well for compensation.

GvG love:
- Obsidian Sanctum is free for all. Players are able to swap their factions on will in this instance. Once they leave Obsidian Sanctum, they return to their original factions. The map-chat is available cross-factions in OS. The team-chat is only available for their current faction.

Loot-changes:
- Instead of blue and green gear, players loot stack-able containers that can be opened later to drop blue and green gear.
- Instead of rare gear, players loot stack-able containers that can be opened later to drop rare gear.
- Instead of exotic gear, players loot stack-able containers that can be opened later to drop exotic gear. Spoons are not included in these containers’ loot-table. Spoons do not compete for a spot with other exotics in the loot-table. Spoons can only be dropped by the SM lord and have a pretty high chance to do so.
- Rank up chests provide you with a small chance to loot exotic containers, a medium chance for rare containers and a high chance for green/blue containers. Rank-up chests also will provide you with a small amount of WvW tickets.

estimated Pros:
- Population imbalance is dealt with.
- Coverage issues are dealt with.
- loot spam is dealt with.
- Ques are dealt with.
- Guilds and communities still can organize themselves as they please. Communities have a way bigger potential to expand and grow stronger now.
- Since there are only 3 factions, and a PvE megaserver, recruiting to factions / guilds is much more easy.
- GvG scene is real now.
- spying gets harder, due to the instanced maps creating multiple layers.
- Eotm becomes a competitive map. (A rework to eradicate most of the PvE stuff could even get it into the realms of being balanced)

estimated Cons:
- Server identity / Server pride is lost. (Faction identity / pride is the new thing?)
- Communities most likely don’t continue to exist in their current iteration.
- The feeling of long-term rewards is gone with the Score.
- Tournaments will not return (or at least I have no idea ho tournaments should look like in the this system, hence the tickets get rewarded by the rank-up chests).
- It is not guaranteed that some instances don’t turn out as giant karma-blobs (more fun for skilled zerg-buster guilds).
- Low tier roaming becomes more dangerous since most maps will have pretty high populations. This forces a roamer to have better map-awareness in general.
- Since EotM is part of the new maps, xp/karma-blobbs are a thing of the past, since they will have guild-groups and skilled roamers to deal with (I don’t think that’s bad, but others surely will…).

Discuss.

Arantheal.7396:

estimated Pros:
- Guilds and communities still can organize themselves as they please. Communities have a way bigger potential to expand and grow stronger now.
- Since there are only 3 factions, and a PvE megaserver, recruiting to factions / guilds is much more easy.
- GvG scene is real now.

Excuse me but how the kitten is that even possible with your proposed system?

How are guilds and communities supposed to organize when all you know is that you end up as “green”. You have no idea what guilds you are going to play with. Pug players have no idea what instance they land in. Its impossible to organize anything apart from individual guild raids. Communities would be non-existant.

Regarding to recruiting to factions, I dont see how its easier. Pug and small guilds are given absolutely no reason to join, because again they have no idea where they end up. They wont join a community because communities cant exist in an free for all EoTM enviroment.

GvG scene more real? Uh… There can be zero planning. GvG would be impossible, it would just be spur of the moment scrims between the guilds that happen to be in the same instance. That’s not necessarily bad, but you have no idea of knowing whether you are going to meet them tomorrow again. Or the next hour you log on for that matter.

It all come back to the fact that a community of an instanced scale is impossible to maintain without a huge resource behind it. I said it in another thread, if Anet created a massive TS with all instances, all guilds and room for every player in the game… Yeah. EoTM style WvW might even work. Especially if we allow easy instance hopping.

But they arent going to do that. We all know it. They didnt allow a matchup forum here and they certainly wont allow a matchup TS. If they make instanced WvW servers, they would just do it like EoTM and leave it. Which would suck. It would destroy the communities that has been built up over 3 years now, it would destroy the matchups, it would ruin everything. WvW isnt perfect, but its the best we got. Improving it is never a problem. Reworking it will make people furious.

Arantheal.7396:

- Objectives don’t tick Score every 15min, they tick WxP. SM: 700 WxP / Keeps: 500 WxP / Towers: 350 WxP / Camps: 250 WXP. The tick is handed to all players that are currently assigned to this map-instance in a 15 min period. A player that switches the map-instance will not get rewarded for the next 2 ticks. Switching the map itself will not get punished.

So a guy AFK on the map earn free WxP…

@Dawdler

The idea to address your concerns was the join map function that allows parties or whole guilds to join the same instance.
Since the soft-cap is half the hard-cap, there should be enough room for any guild to join, and if a guild notices that the map is full, they can rejoin, therefore get on a currently less populated instance and start porting guildies in there.
The same principle would work for OS and organized GvG’s.
Actually this is a already-implemented System in PvE, so it shouldn’t be hard to get the same system working for the WvW maps.

Yes, the communities as we know them right now would cease to exist, still it is likely that 3 mega-communities with their separate TS servers form, basically uniting the players of the current Servers.

edit: maybe I misunderstood your concern about OS. In case you were asking how enemy guilds can make sure to join the same instance: Welp, their leaders could group up in LA or another city, both join the same OS map and then start porting their guild in.
If there are people interested in spectating, they’d just need to contact the guild-leader or ask other people on the forum where the GvG got organized.
It still feels a bit clunky, true. But unless a-net decides to allow 20v20 as new PvP gamemode, this is the best I can possibly imagine, that still does not require a unreasonable high workload on the design team. As you’ve surely noticced, my suggestions were trying to use as much as possible from existing resources and systems to allow a fast and smooth transition, if a-net ever decides to do so.

@Silverthorn
As far as I’m aware you still get kicked off the map if you are afk longer than 10min (or was it 5min?), so this problem is already covered by the current system of WvW. Also, even if people decide to just move on the spot a little in spawn and then do nothing, they would hurt themselves by not participating in all the Player-kills and caps going on in that time. And since the amount of reward-track progress per WxP is still open for discussion, it could be small enough to make afk farming not worth it, while still increasing the rewards that active players can earn in WvW compared to the current situation.

Also, the amount of WxP you currently get for guarding a fully upgraded border is minimal, especially if you just have small game to hunt. Still it is important to have your home border covered, else other servers will feast on the free banquette. With these changes, defenders would have a real incentive to patrol a map where there is nothing to cap, beyond server pride. Also most of the traits you can buy with WxP are siege & defense orientated, so while they are useful for zergs, they are from mayor importance to any defender out there, so it’s only natural that they become a reasonable access to WxP for helping their Faction by building siege / upgrading and keeping a eye on the area..

edit2: another idea that could solve this issue (and compensate for the taken out “Server-pride” as incentive to upgrade) would be to scale down the initial WxP gain per tick per structure and reward more WxP the higher a structure is upgraded.
This -again- would discourage mindless k-trains and make defending a structure worth it for all commanders. Tuning down the upgrade costs and time it takes to upgrade a structure would make this also more attractive for rather casual players, potentially giving WvW in general a population boost.

I like it

/15 chars

Ehhh next same topic! U have about 100 of them( alliances, fractions etc.) at forum since 2014. Again, this won’t work due to issues with community, hardware etc.

• Where will server’s loyalty go?
• Much more spies
• All pug players will still badwagon 1 side just for a sake of easy wins with numbers( like they do with SFR now) and ktrains.
• Again most major problem are languages for EU servers.
• Abuse of /join map ssytem u wrote about by adding someone to some 1 time guild and bringing to their map just to outnumber enemy ^^
• Abuse of PPT when some alliance get 4x number of players of other alliance( yes it can be balanced by capping for example green alliance till blue and red fill up, but ppl will just w8 with chosing side to have asy wins ^^ also it can;t be capped with “A player chooses a Faction when he first logs into WvW” cos player won;t be able to play untill he get into alliance – which is full, but his friends / guild is tehre.)
• Hardware, now cap is around 60-70. All servers have 108 maps with this new system and cap of 50 it will be at last 150. While servers can’t hold up with those we have already – look “Lag issue” post.
• What I mentioned earlier, ktrains, ktrains, ktrains all around.
• Some community problems( for example: a lot of ppl dislike some commander / players / guild and they will troll em) also server’s have their own alliances of guilds that play together for very long time and help each other. Same geos for commanders that like to play with their own hard players and don’t want some bronze players( no offence tho, but I was in bronze and I know lvl of players there, some roamers are worth to mention[ from Vabbi or RoS], but rest don’t even know what blasts are).

>Where will server’s loyalty go?
Down the gutter, since there are no servers anymore. You need to let some things go for the greater good. also, as stated above, it’s not unlikely that Faction loyalty can be the new thing, if they design it properly. I mean, what do we have now? Nothing but a name and the people we like to play together with. Nothing holds back a whole community to join a single faction all together.

>Much more spies.
Elaborate. The pay-wall for switching factions is still there. T1 is currently the most spy-plagued tier. they are 3 servers, locked together via glicko-rating. the new system would be 3 factions, tied together… If all, you’d have the same spies, but way more players.

>All pug players will still badwagon 1 side just for a sake of easy wins with numbers( like they do with SFR now) and ktrains.
Baseless assumption. the tier I’m in (t7) is equally balanced. You’d be surprised how many people enjoy sieging up and defending a tower/keep

>Again most major problem are languages for EU servers.
I’m german. I play in EU. RoS is a international server. while I speak german within my guild occasionally, I don’t have issues with communicating in english. German communities within a faction can still be a thing. German guilds will definitively stay being a thing. The same goes to other languages. Also you can use the language filter to get rid of foreign “spam” if you prefer this.

>Abuse of /join map ssytem
Other factions can and will do so as well. It’s called strategy. and with the proposed mega-communities, such actions can be dealt quickly with. I’d go so far to not even call it abuse, but multi-dimensional push^^

>Abuse of PPT when some alliance get 4x number of players of other alliance.
there is no PPT anymore. If a alliance outnumbers the others, they will find mostly empty-maps, filled with players from their side, while the alliance with 2nd inferior numbers will face 1v1 situations in equally filled maps or, like the 3rd inferior alliance, equally balanced maps.
This automatically will force people out of over-stacked factions because else they can have nothing but the afk-game.

>Hardware, now cap is around 60-70. All servers have 108 maps with this new system and cap of 50 it will be at last 150.
Source? I’ve seen way bigger 3-ways in SM…

>Some community problems
As for the alliances, see above. And harrasment or abuse towards certain commanders can’t be fixed by even the most well-thought fixes. That’s business for the support and report function.

Then why not go play a game with this concept built into the design?

Could it be because every game with that concept, has shut down because players didn’t like it?

-Such as your so called “solution” to population imbalance with drive new players and seasoned ones away. History has proven that players would rather play with “imbalance” rather then to not play and sit in queue.

-Why do factions need to shuffle colors weekly? That is a waste of effort.

-Rework every map? Yeah, cause there are plenty of programmers around doing nothing, that can jump right on that. I am guessing your making suggestions with no actual clue as to how things work.

-One of your worst ideas is that a map doesn’t close if the population dwindles on it. This one idea alone, allows for insane, artificial score manipulation. Did you actually think any of these through when you listed them? It feels to me as if you regurgitating bad ideas posted on the other threads on this topic.

-Your reward system is counterintuitive and promoted not attacks. WvW will no longer have fights.

-Players receive no rewards for a period of time, because they had to move maps multiple times to get their guild all on one map. The other option is pull everyone out of their map. Under your terribly bad rewards concept, I cannot move to my friends with out being punished by reward lose. the fact that you think punishing players for moving, to join their friends is baffling to me.

-WvW gear becomes salvageable, but not like other gear? Why do we need to do that. Why not allow karma gear to be salvageable too? Again, I see your demanding a change, with no actual clue as to why it exist.

—Your estimated Pros demonstrate you are not fully aware of how or why things work as they do now. You are forcing equal populations on maps and declaring one of the so called “pros” of your idea is that there are no queue issue and they are all solved? You idea makes queues infinitely worse.

-LMAO, Spying gets harder? Why do you think that?

-Edge of the mist gets competitive? No chance. ALl you did was literally force all of WvW into one large EotM

All you do in your second post, is make random claims of “Pros” that are not connected to your ideas in the least.

By the way, why did you make a entirely new thread for nothing more then your comments? There are 4 threads on the front page of the WvW sub forum about reworking WvW. It kind of feels to me as if all you did, was take all the ideas from those threads that turn WvW into current EotM, and cram them into a new thread.

Look at your recent post. Instead of offering ideas that solve problems, you want to simply acknowledge that Abuse of /join map system and Abuse of PPT will run rampant in your system, and your solutions is “oh it is fine, because they will do it evenly on all sides”.

Your not solving any problems at all. Your simply demanding they add what you think you want, with no actual concept of how things work.

Arantheal.7396:

>All pug players will still badwagon 1 side just for a sake of easy wins with numbers( like they do with SFR now) and ktrains.
Baseless assumption. the tier I’m in (t7) is equally balanced. You’d be surprised how many people enjoy sieging up and defending a tower/keep

Ye so t7 ppl will enjoy sieging with “blue” alliance, when “green” alliance roll em with numbers ^^

>Again most major problem are languages for EU servers.
I’m german. I play in EU. RoS is a international server. while I speak german within my guild occasionally, I don’t have issues with communicating in english. German communities within a faction can still be a thing. German guilds will definitively stay being a thing. The same goes to other languages. Also you can use the language filter to get rid of foreign “spam” if you prefer this.

I wish I could but it don’t work at WvW ^^ I still see some germans typing etc. but with alliances it will be plagues. Also what when 30% of map will be German speaking and 70% English speaking and comm form German side speaking and leading in german? What then? Ignore him and get own english speaking comm with less ppl than enemy comm? Pretty clever and balanced.

>Abuse of /join map ssytem
Other factions can and will do so as well. It’s called strategy. and with the proposed mega-communities, such actions can be dealt quickly with. I’d go so far to not even call it abuse, but multi-dimensional push^^

Yet some side will still have a lot of players when compare to others ^^ and multi push? Who will care about points? xD Rewards aren’t worth it – those u suggested, cos they will earn much more by rolling lower number zergs with their blob. Also u said that other will do that too( taxing ppl to unbalnace maps). I can type same about current gamemode. Ppl can just swap to sfr and play there with numbers. No1 is holding them form doing it.

>Abuse of PPT when some alliance get 4x number of players of other alliance.
there is no PPT anymore. If a alliance outnumbers the others, they will find mostly empty-maps, filled with players from their side, while the alliance with 2nd inferior numbers will face 1v1 situations in equally filled maps or, like the 3rd inferior alliance, equally balanced maps.
This automatically will force people out of over-stacked factions because else they can have nothing but the afk-game.

So u want to throw away some gamestyle(ppt) from players right? And what will be deal with upgrading keeps? No ppt, no need to defend, no need to cap, WvW won’t be WvW anymore but more open field arena.

Well ppl won’t quit this alliance, cos of free win every time due to full coverage at any map ^^ They won’t have afk game aswell, just ktrain and jump form 1 overflow to other just to roll zergs there, liek ti is now with SFR.

>Hardware, now cap is around 60-70. All servers have 108 maps with this new system and cap of 50 it will be at last 150.
Source? I’ve seen way bigger 3-ways in SM…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Lag-March-2015/page/13#post5066452
Also only 2 guilds get in now and queue pop up, 2 guilds with 20-28 members. Add some pugs – not many tho, this give u 60-70. Go into topic I posted and check out eralier, there was a lot of cap reduction. Or just count like we did at our border at 3 am. – probably missed 2-3 roamers – doupt it tho cos nothing was capped for like 10 mins and we had queue. As we counted it was 67 of us – blue side alpine borderland.

>Some community problems
As for the alliances, see above. And harrasment or abuse towards certain commanders can’t be fixed by even the most well-thought fixes. That’s business for the support and report function.

Nope, it can be fixed by not implementing alliances and look above, no way to get rid of language diffrence Unless u want to lose every fight due to lower numbers of players. That is the problem, They can ofcourse make it English only and punish with chat ban for some time for using other language but then…it won’t work ^^

I don’t really know hwy u want ot change something. Ppl want to play in blobs then they go T1-2. If they want to play zergs they go into silver, if they want roam they go bronze. Simple sollution.

On the whole I like it.

The main problem I see with this solution is this part:

- A player chooses a Faction when he first logs into WvW. Their names are of minor importance and up for discussion. Essentially, it’s green, blue, and red. Factions can not be switched, unless a reasonable gem-price got paid.

What stops players from joining on one "faction" and create another unbalanced mess ? I have not seen anything yet that limits this. And even the soft-cap system will likely mean that this over-grown-faction will start new maps to dominate, or taxi in to existing maps etc. Because just as you see with EotM maps now, blue and red will typically try to taxi as many as possible into one instance, and let Green dominate the 7 others.

@ Dawdler: Just pointing out that he meant this as a 1 week game/match, not as a 3-4 hour matches as EotM is now. He listed that in his first few points. So community building isn’t impossible, but I agree it will be harder.

I was thinking … maybe? u do not even need to worry about people picking a faction

if u group guilds with alliances

maybe instead of faction pride- have guild pride

have a system focused around guilds and there alliances and than group them in to factions

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

idk why you think a third of the wvw community can fit into one teamspeak, let alone organise itself over multiple instances. i doubt you are even a part of your server community.

caveman.5840:

I was thinking … maybe? u do not even need to worry about people picking a faction

if u group guilds with alliances

maybe instead of faction pride- have guild pride

have a system focused around guilds and there alliances and than group them in to factions

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

But it looks like a prelude to GvG which isn’t and won’t be supported by Anet. They said clearly that won’t evolve Guils vs Guild in any way and won’t base / balance WvW by guilds. Also u miss some stuff about pugs. They will still unbalance it cos a lot of players play WvW without guilds – so called pugs.

Kasteros.9847:

caveman.5840:

I was thinking … maybe? u do not even need to worry about people picking a faction

if u group guilds with alliances

maybe instead of faction pride- have guild pride

have a system focused around guilds and there alliances and than group them in to factions

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

But it looks like a prelude to GvG which isn’t and won’t be supported by Anet. They said clearly that won’t evolve Guils vs Guild in any way and won’t base / balance WvW by guilds. Also u miss some stuff about pugs. They will still unbalance it cos a lot of players play WvW without guilds – so called pugs.

not trying to derail the conversation .

but how would it technically be guild VS guild if there would be random guilds/ players mixed in to fill individual factions

I thought a huge part of the fun of WvW is devising and executing long-term (multi-month) strategies with a group of folks outside your own guild. WvW has the most interesting metagame of any mode… why would you annihilate that one strength?

Terrible idea.

caveman.5840:

Kasteros.9847:

caveman.5840:

I was thinking … maybe? u do not even need to worry about people picking a faction

if u group guilds with alliances

maybe instead of faction pride- have guild pride

have a system focused around guilds and there alliances and than group them in to factions

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

But it looks like a prelude to GvG which isn’t and won’t be supported by Anet. They said clearly that won’t evolve Guils vs Guild in any way and won’t base / balance WvW by guilds. Also u miss some stuff about pugs. They will still unbalance it cos a lot of players play WvW without guilds – so called pugs.

not trying to derail the conversation .

but how would it technically be guild VS guild if there would be random guilds/ players mixed in to fill individual factions

caveman.5840:

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

Isn’t being at war with some guild same as being against a.k.a vs some guild?

Kasteros.9847:

caveman.5840:

Kasteros.9847:

caveman.5840:

I was thinking … maybe? u do not even need to worry about people picking a faction

if u group guilds with alliances

maybe instead of faction pride- have guild pride

have a system focused around guilds and there alliances and than group them in to factions

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

But it looks like a prelude to GvG which isn’t and won’t be supported by Anet. They said clearly that won’t evolve Guils vs Guild in any way and won’t base / balance WvW by guilds. Also u miss some stuff about pugs. They will still unbalance it cos a lot of players play WvW without guilds – so called pugs.

not trying to derail the conversation .

but how would it technically be guild VS guild if there would be random guilds/ players mixed in to fill individual factions

caveman.5840:

maybe have a option so u can say u r at war with a guild so u dont end up on there team

Isn’t being at war with some guild same as being against a.k.a vs some guild?

well I did say maybe …but it would be a nice addition