Swiss Tournaments -- alternating matches.
swiss tournament in chess is not the danish variant, i.e. you always play an oponent mostly once.
And with 5 rounds for 50 participants in chess its not so repetive as ANet version of 9 round for 6 or 9 participants. (2 rounds for 9 would be enough.)
Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!
(2 rounds for 9 would be enough.)
This sounds ridiculous, put it’s pretty much true!
In Silver League (NA) we’ve reached “equilibrium” by week 3/4 already: every future matchup alternates between being the same as week 3’s and week 4’s.
At first I thought that the swiss system would be cool and lead to a lot of interesting results, but now it’s clear that it’s just a way to highlight the immense failure of the free transfer and pre-tournament transfers in general. The swiss system would probably have been a lot more interesting if the various servers could move between leagues during the 9 weeks. But then when you encourage server stacking via transfers, you end up with what we have, very little competition between the ranks… Even in the middle of NA servers, because HoD and FA are always going to be 1 and 2, the middle servers competing for 3 are all going to get knocked down in the rankings the week they play HoD and FA. Just like BS my server, at this point, we can stop playing entirely and take 8th place, OR we can put in a huge effort and take 8th place because we can’t compete with the Oceanic population of the servers above us. And it’s Week 5… another month of meaningless PPT… Spoon
They should have had a three week tournament. All positions were pretty much locked up at that point.
SBI
Another thing that’s a bit ridiculous: the tournament ends after an odd number of weeks. If it had ended after an even number, two pairs of servers would swap rankings .. that’s 4 out of 9 rankings that would be different.
Big difference if you care about the tournament rewards.
At first I thought that the swiss system would be cool and lead to a lot of interesting results, but now it’s clear that it’s just a way to highlight the immense failure of the free transfer and pre-tournament transfers in general. The swiss system would probably have been a lot more interesting if the various servers could move between leagues during the 9 weeks. But then when you encourage server stacking via transfers, you end up with what we have, very little competition between the ranks… Even in the middle of NA servers, because HoD and FA are always going to be 1 and 2, the middle servers competing for 3 are all going to get knocked down in the rankings the week they play HoD and FA. Just like BS my server, at this point, we can stop playing entirely and take 8th place, OR we can put in a huge effort and take 8th place because we can’t compete with the Oceanic population of the servers above us. And it’s Week 5… another month of meaningless PPT… Spoon
Pretty well said, I think after this season I’ll be pretty much done with WvW.
(2 rounds for 9 would be enough.)
This sounds ridiculous, put it’s pretty much true!
In Silver League (NA) we’ve reached “equilibrium” by week 3/4 already: every future matchup alternates between being the same as week 3’s and week 4’s.
YB has only had 2 sets of matches, and unless something drastically changes, that’s all we’ll have for the entire 9 weeks (HoD/FA and us, and IoJ/NSP and us) Sadly, the team we’re technically ranked closest too, is one we’ll never face (SBI)
I MUCH preferred the way the first tournament was run. All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
Cuthache | Ranger
OTG!
Yak’s Bend!
OTG!
Yak’s Bend!
It’s a shame SBI and YB will never face off since we seem to be almost perfectly matched — 3rd place is going to go to whoever doesn’t fight HoD/FA last (which should be YB). So YB will beat SBI, but they will not have fought each other once the entire tournament (unless one of them is somehow able to beat FA, or loses to IoJ).
Sounds like YB is experiencing the exact same fairweather phenomenon that SBI is too. One week it’s karma training/bag farming, next week those same people are nowhere to be seen.
……All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
And therein lies the main problem with WvWvW. Anet has no way to know the percentage of fair-weather players. Servers which actually could compete with each-other simply give up due to morale issues, internal politics, or lack of desire/ability to change tactics for different opponents.
Add to that the insistence on using ranking systems designed for professional sports (or chess) where the team sizes are static and the rosters are known to all sides for a 24/7 game-mode without set teams. Expecting consistent performance from thousands of random people who basically amount to hobbyists (even the most hardcore) is ridiculous.
Hats off to all the ones who stood before me, and taught a fool to ride.
(2 rounds for 9 would be enough.)
This sounds ridiculous, put it’s pretty much true!
In Silver League (NA) we’ve reached “equilibrium” by week 3/4 already: every future matchup alternates between being the same as week 3’s and week 4’s.
YB has only had 2 sets of matches, and unless something drastically changes, that’s all we’ll have for the entire 9 weeks (HoD/FA and us, and IoJ/NSP and us) Sadly, the team we’re technically ranked closest too, is one we’ll never face (SBI)
I MUCH preferred the way the first tournament was run. All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
Kind of the same for us on SBI. The reality is, we have motivation to win when we face IoJ/CD, but when we face HoD/FA there is no incentive to win at this point, because our only prize would be to face them again. Same for YB.
……All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
And therein lies the main problem with WvWvW. Anet has no way to know the percentage of fair-weather players. Servers which actually could compete with each-other simply give up due to morale issues, internal politics, or lack of desire/ability to change tactics for different opponents.
Add to that the insistence on using ranking systems designed for professional sports (or chess) where the team sizes are static and the rosters are known to all sides for a 24/7 game-mode without set teams. Expecting consistent performance from thousands of random people who basically amount to hobbyists (even the most hardcore) is ridiculous.
Swiss is actually great, but with current setup it should be 3 weeks, absolute maximum of 4. Anything over that doenst make much sense (as now experienced)
I could see this working for 4 weeks and 2 leagues, but need to add/remove servers for that so i guess it wont happen.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
……All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
And therein lies the main problem with WvWvW. Anet has no way to know the percentage of fair-weather players. Servers which actually could compete with each-other simply give up due to morale issues, internal politics, or lack of desire/ability to change tactics for different opponents.
Add to that the insistence on using ranking systems designed for professional sports (or chess) where the team sizes are static and the rosters are known to all sides for a 24/7 game-mode without set teams. Expecting consistent performance from thousands of random people who basically amount to hobbyists (even the most hardcore) is ridiculous.
Swiss is actually great, but with current setup it should be 3 weeks, absolute maximum of 4. Anything over that doenst make much sense (as now experienced)
I could see this working for 4 weeks and 2 leagues, but need to add/remove servers for that so i guess it wont happen.
Swiss is good when all competitors have a decent chance of winning. However that is not the case here since T2 has no chance at beating T1. In chess the favorite player can still be beaten by the player ranked last if he screws up or lets his guard down. In GW2 T1 players could play half as much with their attention on TV and still trounce lower tiers.
The entire concept of having tournaments between sets of nine servers when they can’t even balance sets of three servers is ludicrous in the first place. It doesn’t matter what system they use to match the servers.
Human Guardian
Fort Aspenwood
Fort Aspenwood
Tournaments like this work if you have a field of relatively equally competitive opponents. In the absence of that, it doesn’t matter which system you use – the results will be skewed regardless.
Not only that there was no balance before the tournament, both tournament even increased imbalance.
Ceterum censeo SFR esse delendam!
……All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
And therein lies the main problem with WvWvW. Anet has no way to know the percentage of fair-weather players. Servers which actually could compete with each-other simply give up due to morale issues, internal politics, or lack of desire/ability to change tactics for different opponents.
Add to that the insistence on using ranking systems designed for professional sports (or chess) where the team sizes are static and the rosters are known to all sides for a 24/7 game-mode without set teams. Expecting consistent performance from thousands of random people who basically amount to hobbyists (even the most hardcore) is ridiculous.
Swiss is actually great, but with current setup it should be 3 weeks, absolute maximum of 4. Anything over that doenst make much sense (as now experienced)
I could see this working for 4 weeks and 2 leagues, but need to add/remove servers for that so i guess it wont happen.
Swiss is good when all competitors have a decent chance of winning. However that is not the case here since T2 has no chance at beating T1. In chess the favorite player can still be beaten by the player ranked last if he screws up or lets his guard down. In GW2 T1 players could play half as much with their attention on TV and still trounce lower tiers.
Um, no.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Everybody should have been put into the Swiss system (no leagues). At the end, give the first 6 servers gold rewards, next 9 silver, next 9 bronze.
There would be blowouts early when #1 faced #20 in the First round, but the matches would all be meaningful and building towards something. Bonus: less incentive to over stack the #1 server.
#24 leaderboard rank North America.
(edited by nekretaal.6485)
If they’re going to have a tournament they should just manually make the matches. In fact, they should manually make the matches for regular play too.
Except don’t make the matches ahead of time. Make it based on score in the previous match.
Or use a modified swiss system where no team can face the same two teams in a 3 week period.
Everybody should have been put into the Swiss system (no leagues). At the end, give the first 6 servers gold rewards, next 9 silver, next 9 bronze.
There would be blowouts early when #1 faced #20 in the First round, but the matches would all be meaningful and building towards something. Bonus: less incentive to over stack the #1 server.
Spot on, and end rewards should really be participation rewards with maybe a bit of spread, going by current rates gold 500, silver 450, bronze 400, not like now 500-200.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Lets be honest wvw season is a joke. They just tacked it onto the feature patch to add content. To prevent loosing players to some other game I already forgot about.
Lets be honest wvw season is a joke. They just tacked it onto the feature patch to add content. To prevent loosing players to some other game I already forgot about.
I completely agree with you.
……All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
And therein lies the main problem with WvWvW. Anet has no way to know the percentage of fair-weather players. Servers which actually could compete with each-other simply give up due to morale issues, internal politics, or lack of desire/ability to change tactics for different opponents.
Add to that the insistence on using ranking systems designed for professional sports (or chess) where the team sizes are static and the rosters are known to all sides for a 24/7 game-mode without set teams. Expecting consistent performance from thousands of random people who basically amount to hobbyists (even the most hardcore) is ridiculous.
Swiss is actually great, but with current setup it should be 3 weeks, absolute maximum of 4. Anything over that doenst make much sense (as now experienced)
I could see this working for 4 weeks and 2 leagues, but need to add/remove servers for that so i guess it wont happen.
Swiss is good when all competitors have a decent chance of winning. However that is not the case here since T2 has no chance at beating T1. In chess the favorite player can still be beaten by the player ranked last if he screws up or lets his guard down. In GW2 T1 players could play half as much with their attention on TV and still trounce lower tiers.
Um, no.
Not entirely sure what this adds to the discussion. Care to elaborate?
Eve Morrow, Mesmer, Eve Flamescythe, Ele
Tarnished Coast
Tarnished Coast
I MUCH preferred the way the first tournament was run. All this is doing (at least in our bracket) is breeding fair weather WvW. If it’s the first matchup – people just don’t show (queues on all maps are gone within 2 hours on Friday night) whereas for the second – well we’ve had off and on queues for different maps all weekend
I’m sure the same problem plagues CD and NSP.
As for IoJ (and I imagine FA/BP), getting second for many weeks straight is pretty boring as well. Not only is there no match-up variation, but repeatedly placing second leaves you in limbo, where the hardcore players still feel the need to push (at the risk of placing 3rd) and the fairweathers just don’t show up.
Second Child
Apparently, Swiss tournaments are used in chess. Do you see this a lot in chess tournaments:
- The four top competitors are A, B, C, D.
- A always beats everyone. B and C always beats D.
- B and C are close enough in points that if the one who’s ahead in ranking loses and the other wins, then they swap positions in the rankings. Let’s say B is currently ranked above C.
- The current matchup is A vs B and C vs D.
In this situation, B loses and C wins so they swap positions, so the next matchup is:
- A vs C and B vs D… where C loses and B wins, so the swap positions and the next matchup is:
- A vs B and C vs D …etc.
This goes on until the tournament ends. The problem is that 2nd place is determined by which matchup took place right before the tournament ended; and not by a head-to-head match between the two.
Does this type of situation happen a lot in Chess? Because it seems to be a bit to common in the WvW tournament.
Playing the same server for weeks in a row destroys morale. Period.
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