Guild Wars 2

Chopps.5047:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

“the way you guys have fun isn’t really fun, only we know what the true fun is”

I never said that. Some people think running around with the Endless Cat Tonic is fun. Some people think getting 15 legendaries is fun. But it’s not going to help you win! GvG only wins in an egotistic-vanity sense. WvW is where the true players support their server. These are facts of life, I didn’t come up with the facts.

Thats the point. For those 1-2 hours the guilds doing GvG just dont care about winning or losing the matchup. They want to improve their skills.
Winning at all costs = not fun for some players.

Chopps.5047:

Lol @ “whoa, people still care about PPT?”

Amazing people take the false moral high ground instead of admitting they were outplayed by JQ and their own GvG affected the outcome.

GvG is a bit like losing a tpvp match and saying “whoa, people still care about capping points? 1v1 me bro. No stomps, you lose on down, and we stay in this little corner of the map” What a strange way to play gw2—it’s the ultimate egotistic / vanity move: lose PPT so start thumping chest and challenging a 1v1 to save face. That’s all this gvg nonsense is (besides a complete joke).

Lol @ everyone who thinks that way: you lost before the battle even started. Oh, and for all your gvg “pro” nonsense, I still wipe the floor with my ranger. Ahahaha! GG

You guys used to have heart for wvw— now you’re an empty shell. Eagerly awaiting the exodus of gvg guilds and the resulting mayhem in T1. Your tears level me up!

Lol I like this guy. The info was from the week before our loss though champ and we are smashing you guys right now.

I am a Tpvpers aswell only 460 people in NA have more wins than myself and I have not tpvped since they destroyed the balance. soo 2-3 months? I hold large scale wvw on par with GvG as far as combat goes and small scale to spvp. Anyone on a large server will tell you that you can do what every you want when ever you want since our pops are so high we can choose either at any time. While there are a few crazy large forces most guilds run like 20-30 guys. If you guys were on a huge zergball server /rolls eyes you would love it. I have never been in an mmo where being on a low pop server was a good thing just saying.

When it comes to the numbers it doesn’t matter I reduced the pop to 25% of sales and you guys were still under 1% even reducing that by 50% leaves your population at just over 1% so no matter how you try to swing it its not going to make the number any larger if anything the proper numbers will just reduce it even more.

I’m terrible at math, but so is Flute, so let’s get going.

Assuming (we’re going to have to do this a lot) that each map queues around 100 people, and there are 4 maps, at any given time, each server can only have about 400 people playing. Also assuming that the average player that would be considered “hardcore” plays for an hour a day, and assuming (big jump here) that every player in WvW is “hardcore,” we get some pretty interesting numbers.

If a server has a queue on every map 24/7, cycling out each of their players each hour, with those same players returning to play the next day, there are about 9600 “active” WvW players per server. No servers are queued all day every day, most don’t even come close. Even NA T1 doesn’t have a queue on every map all day every day. Outside of NA primetime, which lasts about 5 hours, I don’t think there are ever all 4 maps queued for T1. I would estimate that each NA T1 server probably have 5000 active players. NA T2 averages about 75% of that, and NA T3 about half, I would say. Assuming this trend, we can poorly calculate these numbers:

T1 – 5000
T2 – 3750
T3 – 2500
T4 – 1875
T5 – 1250
T6 – 937.5
T7 – 625
T8 – 468.75

Total: 16,406.25 (we can assume the .25 is SilentFlute). I’m bad at math, try not to be mad at me. I work in healthcare. Leave me alone.

Now let’s determine how many of these players are in guilds on the Gw2GvG site! I know that my guild is quite large, able to raid with around 30 almost any day, and I’d approximate that we have between 100 and 150 active players. There are a few guilds like Agg and VII that raid with between 20 and 30 most days but have small rosters (I believe Agg only has 60 or so players). So, let’s put the average guild on the Gw2GvG site who actually GvG at 75 active players on average.

Since there are 55 NA guilds on the GvG site who have recorded GvGs, this comes out to 4125 active NA GvG players.

With there being 4125 NA GvG players, and 16,406.25 total NA “Active” WvW players, I estimate that GvG guilds make up 25.14% of all active WvW players on NA. Hardly a small, vocal minority.

Also, I’m really bad at math and these numbers are probably terribly wrong, however, at least they’re not as bad as Flute’s.

Edit: whoops, forgot to multiply times 3. So about 9% of 49218.75.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol if “GvG” is the only thing these guilds enjoy and would leave if they didn’t do it then why would it hurt wvw if they left. If they don’t enjoy wvw they don’t wvw so the wvw community would gain from them leaving.

Oh really? Because I remember a couple days ago when EP finished a GvG, then stuck around on the map and turned every structure on MagBL Red. And they’re no good for the WvW community….?

Ty Paralda, Yes your maths makes a lot of assumptions but its still a lot more sensible than Flutes. Also flute is so short-sighted in his hate for GvG he doesnt realize the long term benefits. Guilds who improve @ GvG often take those tactics and metas to regular WvW so the fact that the guilds on your server are improving consistently using the gvg mode the overall effect on his server’s PPT is positive over the long term.

Actually the biggest person hurting BG’s PPT is flute right now by making BG seem like a server that is not accepting of GvG-ers as well as probably harassing the GvG guilds on his server as well to stunt their potential improvement; but then again hes short-sighted he rather cry a river of Q.Q for that one hour a guild spends GvGing rather than see the bigger picture….and he calls himself a PPT player; isnt the first skill-set of being good at PPT is the ability to see the bigger picture i.e. across all timezones and maps at the bare minimum.

Chopps.5047:

Lol @ “whoa, people still care about PPT?”

Amazing people take the false moral high ground instead of admitting they were outplayed by JQ and their own GvG affected the outcome.

GvG is a bit like losing a tpvp match and saying “whoa, people still care about capping points? 1v1 me bro. No stomps, you lose on down, and we stay in this little corner of the map” What a strange way to play gw2—it’s the ultimate egotistic / vanity move: lose PPT so start thumping chest and challenging a 1v1 to save face. That’s all this gvg nonsense is (besides a complete joke).

Lol @ everyone who thinks that way: you lost before the battle even started. Oh, and for all your gvg “pro” nonsense, I still wipe the floor with my ranger. Ahahaha! GG

You guys used to have heart for wvw— now you’re an empty shell. Eagerly awaiting the exodus of gvg guilds and the resulting mayhem in T1. Your tears level me up!

Since there are 3 servers in each tier you have to multiply your totals by 3 then again by two for the eu servers. I think your estimation of the lower tiers are off considering all NA servers are all hi to full, and all EU is med to full but lets go with it just for fun. So using that estimation we have 98437.5 if we use the high end “GvG” estimation they make up 5% (5.07936508%) and on the low end 1.5% (1.42222222%) of wvw population. Which would still be less than 1% of the total population as stated.

Now if you guys look at the “GvG” rankings you can see that everyone above rank 24 NA 66 in EU has 100% loss rate most with only one match so the active “GvG” population is closer to the low end.

lol lanimal talk about blind hatred you didn’t even check the math or prolly understand that she just gave me an agreed upon estimation to use to come to a conclusion; and bro we are winning and already won.

Whoops, 49218.75 total would be more accurate. The GvG scene still makes up about 10% of that, though.

We run with 25-30 every night, but only have a roster of 42. Obviously this isn’t a representation of every guild, but what flute is neglecting to mention, is that he’s using total box sales, which a) will not represent the size of the playerbase now, and b) will not in anyway represent the number of people who play actively in WvW.

To give an example on our guilds server(Baruch Bay), not all of the guilds GvG’ing are registered on the site. Here is an estimate at the guilds active in the GvG scene on our server(who I know have done GvG’s in the past). Scnd, BuLL, siN, MERC, RNV, CS and DsD. All of these guilds play at the Spanish primetime, we play a bit earlier. Now assuming that the cap on the BL’s is 100, and the cap on EB is 120. Scnd(30 man raid), BuLL(30 man raid), siN(35 man raid), MERC (30 man raid), RNV (15-20 man raid), CS(20 man raid), and DsD(40 man raid).

Total numbers of that = 200 on the low end estimation.
Total map cap = 420.

As you can see here, during primetime(Which is the best estimation of GvG activity for any server in the EU ladder) almost half of the entire active playerbase for guilds in WvW are in the GvG scene.

Also, this is purely for flute so he cannot come out with another kittened response.

Like I said, not every guild from our server is registered, but the numbers I have quoted are correct, map caps, and raid size. You can see it is just less than 50% during primetime for our server.

Ty to Paralda too – may not be accurate, but isn’t plucking out numbers of thin air either – has thought behind it.

The fact is you don’t really need to go that far… you just need to look at this forums. The answer is there, written every day, not in numbers but words. And thats probably a more tangible reality in the % of different opinions.

We can safely assume all most posters in WvW forums are regular WvWers.
True not all post or read – some will be part of the unguilded militia, some will belong to a guild, GvG or not – however we can take them as a true representation (even if small part, its still representative) of the WvW community, its itches, thoughts and how WvW is being played out.

Some of this forum WvW community is truly against GvG, some don’t mind and respect it’s existence, some understand it even if they don’t participate, some don’t even care and others swear by it. If one of those groups has 1% representation is not the GvGers.

You may say (rightly so) not all players post in these forums, but my point still stands, we still all represent WvW as you can’t assume all non posters think like you Flute (in fact I know GvGers who don’t post, like they will be more flutes around who don’t either) – a poll of opinion never takes account all population, only a representation of it – the results may not be 100% accurate, but give a clear indication of what the general populus think.

ParaldaWind.4523:

Whoops, 49218.75 total would be more accurate. The GvG scene still makes up about 10% of that, though.

You still have to times it by two for the eu servers because the “gvg” player total is from both NA and EU.

Xenn you also have to consider that any post with “GvG” in the titles only really means anything to "GvG"ers apart from maybe this one cause it says t1 aswell. And every post someone makes against it with it in the title is shaking a bees nest so don’t get it twisted man.

Thesilentflute.8761:

ParaldaWind.4523:

Whoops, 49218.75 total would be more accurate. The GvG scene still makes up about 10% of that, though.

You still have to times it by two for the eu servers because the “gvg” player total is from both NA and EU.

I only counted NA GvG guilds and servers because I felt like I could make a more accurate estimate of those servers and guilds. EU has more GvG guilds, and less total players, so I imagine the percentages for them would be different.

Then you cant use my numbers ill get the na totals one sec.

I wish folks would stop suggesting it be done in the EB JP.

You cannot port there directly and access is effected by ques and keep ownership. Could you hold some there, yes, but it isn’t a location you can plan around.

Lanimal.6541:

Also flute is so short-sighted in his hate for GvG he doesnt realize the long term benefits. Guilds who improve @ GvG often take those tactics and metas to regular WvW so the fact that the guilds on your server are improving consistently using the gvg mode the overall effect on his server’s PPT is positive over the long term.

Not to mention retention and activity level of players that would have otherwise just quit playing, switched servers, or playing at reduced levels. GvG brings more people out on a consistent basis.

NA “GvG” population NA
High end 3.5% (3.57587302%) low end 1% (0.975238095%)

Thesilentflute.8761:

Then you cant use my numbers ill get the na totals one sec.

I didn’t use your numbers. I estimated NA GvG guilds having 75 active players on average, multiplied by 55 guilds, totaling 4125 players.

Are you estimating only 15-20 players per guild..?

20 players. if you didn’t use my number how did you come up with 10%?
My high end total is 5000 so it still doesn’t add up unless you just doubled my totals.

Thesilentflute.8761:

20 players. if you didn’t use my number how did you come up with 10%?

I just said how I got my numbers… are you not a native English speaker?

Thesilentflute.8761:

Xenn you also have to consider that any post with “GvG” in the titles only really means anything to "GvG"ers apart from maybe this one cause it says t1 aswell. And every post someone makes against it with it in the title is shaking a bees nest so don’t get it twisted man.

Your logic is fairly broken, plus the GvG talk, arguments have been put across numerous threads, not only the ones with a “GvGers only read here” (which is not true, and for the record I have never taken part myself in a GvG match or played T1)

Why don’t you just accept GvG is there, people enjoy it, has positives for the game/WvW community and keeps ppl playing it (you need active players in a mmo if you haven’t noticed). Move on, and go and enjoy the battle instead of trying to come up with confused arguments and false calculations on why you (and mostly only you) are right.

Thesilentflute.8761:

lol lanimal talk about blind hatred

What a joke that you would accuse someone else of blind hatred, lol

Let’s asume youre from Piken, Piken has 11 guilds who gvg on there (I asume all but rg are active, from the guilds that are listed)
These guilds most likely run 20 players on average during prime time

So now comes the hard part for you sir 11×20 = 220 players.
Now I asume the player cap on each map is about 80 and these guilds most likely wont go to EB due to the queue. so they take 220 of the 240 slots.
Please tell me how GvG ruins WvW when piken is 5th place. And tell me how these guilds should be denied their GvGs when they obviously pretty much are the entire server comunity.
Now on lower tiers this is the same, except there is no queue on the map where they GvG, and this map is also not any of these guilds side so there is 0 impact.

Please stop your trolling and mindless trashtalking on people it’s getting tiresome and I’m surprised you didn’t get banned from these forums yet

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu in my first post. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

You never did answer the part about how Blackgate gained 10k because of a 12 hour lead overnight and not a GvG, did you?

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

No I am counting each “GvG” team their guild might have 500 people but only 20 “gvg” it is after all the avg team size.

DevonCarver.5370:

Equinox.4195:

So, in regards to GvG and openfield, I don’t see a lot of “rampant speculation” going on. If nothing else, you chose your words poorly. The complaints about this new system potentially killing the GvG scene is entirely grounded.

This forum and this topic in particular are about WvW. WvW is about sieging and controlling objectives and about open field combat. All our changes are with that totality in mind and will continue to be.

[/quote]

saiyr.3071:

You never did answer the part about how Blackgate gained 10k because of a 12 hour lead overnight and not a GvG, did you?

We all know his arguments fall like a house of cards.

Thesilentflute.8761:

No I am counting each “GvG” team their guild might have 500 people but only 20 “gvg” it is after all the avg team size.

So your only math then applies to the actual impact of GvG to the scores in a given match (is that your 1%?) – not to population interests.

A guild that has 500 and GvG has lots more ppl than 20 that GvG or at least like the idea of it – once again, and please accept it, you are wrong on almost every argument.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

No I am counting each “GvG” team their guild might have 500 people but only 20 “gvg” it is after all the avg team size.

So… you’re counting the WHOLE playerbase to support your argument, but only counting 20 players in each guild?
Please, please elaborate and tell me how that makes sense, when saying GvG guilds are <1% of the playerbase, when you don’t count the members in those guilds?

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

No I am counting each “GvG” team their guild might have 500 people but only 20 “gvg” it is after all the avg team size.

So… you’re counting the WHOLE playerbase to support your argument, but only counting 20 players in each guild?
Please, please elaborate and tell me how that makes sense, when saying GvG guilds are <1% of the playerbase, when you don’t count the members in those guilds?

Exactly, this makes no sense. My guild doesn’t use the same 15-20 people in EVERY GvG. We all jump in and out over time. I’d say we’ve had at least 50 different people in our GvGs.

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

Yeah, EP currently has over 150 members. Maybe only 20 GvG at a time. That doesn’t mean only 20 GvG at all. That goes for any GvG-centric guild. Rethesis has a ton of members. I’m positive they change up who is GvGing.

You’d make a good marketer Thesilentflute, you know how to ignore variables to make something swing your way

On the other hand, if the GvG community is lust zero point something percent, why do you bother putting so much hate on them? How can those GvG scrubs be worth your time?
Why is this one GvG the only thing you memorize from that weeks matchup? Did bored by the game and cant accept other still have fun?

EDIT: Okay we fell too long for the troll. Just ignore him in the future, dont respond and let his posts sink in the ocean of tears.

Hickeroar.9734:

Wompage.4586:

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol xenn that was the reason she had to times it by two because I counted both na and eu. I think she is counting each gvg team as 75 people which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you counting each GvG guild as 20? Equally ridiculous

Yeah, EP currently has over 150 members.

NONONO! According to fluteys laws of the world. You only have 20 that count

Thesilentflute.8761:

Lol its math you goon

awww… if only fake / inaccurate / irrational / unmethodical maths were the path to enlightenment.

Let’s try again as he ignored the logic in my post+ only statistics seem to work on you.
We take my old server in WvW
Far shiverpeaks, it’s a pve server with low wvw population.
With your posts, spam and blaming you are insulting 4 of their guilds which equals about 80 active people for 4-5 hours a day, more if you include the ones who play off peak hours.
Far shiverpeaks has barely enough players to fill EB meaning you’re insulting half their active playerbase in WvW.
Earlier you made a comment that you wouldve banned all these players instantly, again ignorant.
Fsp has 2-3 guilds who play 2 days a week, they bring a total of 50 players spread over those 2 days. they do not play GvG but they dont insult them or blame them for losing objectives.

Please if you start maths, use your godkitten brain.

Devon if you read this, please ban this guy, hes not sayign naything constructive and makes up bullkitten.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Because they don’t “GvG” Iol did you really have to ask.

… yes they do? Almost every active player in my guild GvGs at some point. It’s the same in most guilds.

Someone has clearly forgotten that the OP was originally whining that the GvG community was hurting his server’s PPT. I still want an explanation as to how such a tiny percentage of players sitting on a hill can supposedly vastly alter the PPT of the “normal players who are dedicated to PPT.”

Math aside, the OP’s argument is fundamentally at odds with itself. It’s broken and false.

I’m not sure why this is seen as a negative effect in T1 NA. Last week JQ won, this week BG, SoR doesn’t seem to care if they win or lose. It seems that everyone is quite happy about the status of T1 right now. And maybe if you visit our server site you’ll notice a lot of hype around the GvG’s our server takes place in. Also server leaders have made rules (for the lack of a better word) on GvGing on Blackgate. It’s very excepted by the majority.

Listen I used your guys proposed numbers even though they are most likely under the actual number. If your guilds use more than 20 people there is no documents to support it. You gave me a incorrect estimation incorrectly I gave you the proper numbers and the proper totals; I am sorry you don’t like the answer. I was just doing the math for fun anyway.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Listen I used your guys proposed numbers even though they are most likely under the actual number. If your guilds use more than 20 people there is no documents to support it. You gave me a incorrect estimation incorrectly I gave you the proper numbers and the proper totals; I am sorry you don’t like the answer. I was just doing the math for fun anyway.

Can you please respond to this? https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Teir-1-NA-and-the-way-it-is-effected-by-GvG/page/4#post2688126

Thesilentflute.8761:

Listen I used your guys proposed numbers even though they are most likely under the actual number. If your guilds use more than 20 people there is no documents to support it. You gave me a incorrect estimation incorrectly I gave you the proper numbers and the proper totals; I am sorry you don’t like the answer. I was just doing the math for fun anyway.

What? Every guild cycles in more than 20 people for their GvGs. Do you think that any single guild uses the exact same 20 people for every GvG they’ve ever had?

Your outspokenness on GvGs contrasts pretty highly with your actual knowledge of them…

Thesilentflute.8761:

I gave you the proper numbers and the proper totals; I am sorry you don’t like the answer.

:D

Hickeroar.9734:

Someone has clearly forgotten that the OP was originally whining that the GvG community was hurting his server’s PPT. I still want an explanation as to how such a tiny percentage of players sitting on a hill can supposedly vastly alter the PPT of the “normal players who are dedicated to PPT.”

Math aside, the OP’s argument is fundamentally at odds with itself. It’s broken and false.

Hickeroar, I don’t agree with those posts and I’m pro GvG since it brings fun to our server mates. But the point I felt he was trying make was around situations like a WP keep getting hit and GvG’s taking up spots for possible reinforcements. The way that effects PPT is more of a water fall effect, its much easier to defend a T3 WP’d keep then a paper one. If you keep it T3 it takes long for them to siege it down and gives you more time to respond. Also WP’s give a good footing for the next time zone to continue pressure on a map and maintain a higher PPT.

IMO his arguments are unjustified, if he would take the time, he would see Blackgate (his server) has “guide lines” in place to better avoid these situations. But in the end its a game, if a guild wants to GvG on reset night then who are you to say no? Either go crash the GvG and waste more time or plan accordingly and bunker up till the are done.

Thesilentflute.8761:

I am a Tpvpers aswell only 460 people in NA have more wins than myself

I would like to know your actual ranking (PS your win ranking is only 501 right now) so we know how expert you are

Zikory that was what I was getting at. “GvG” still effects wvw on servers that are less organized then we are this will stunt progression and kill competition. What is the harm in me tracking the effect none right.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Zikory that was what I was getting at. “GvG” still effects wvw on servers that are less organized then we are this will stunt progression and kill competition. What is the harm in me tracking the effect none right.

Progression? Progression….where?

The present system randomly progresses different servers every week. There’s no real game of “progression” anymore.

saiyr.3071:

Thesilentflute.8761:

I am a Tpvpers aswell only 460 people in NA have more wins than myself

I would like to know your actual ranking (PS your win ranking is only 501 right now) so we know how expert you are

Yea like I said I have not played in 2 months I was 310 then 460 last i checked now it looks like 501 sad face. My rank is like 89% soloing in team I have not done any solo. Lol does the GvGer want to give me some tips lol.

Thesilentflute.8761:

saiyr.3071:

Thesilentflute.8761:

I am a Tpvpers aswell only 460 people in NA have more wins than myself

I would like to know your actual ranking (PS your win ranking is only 501 right now) so we know how expert you are

Yea like I said I have not played in 2 months I was 310 then 460 last i checked now it looks like 501 sad face. My rank is like 89% soloing in team I have not done any solo. Lol does the GvGer want to give me some tips lol.

So you admit to having missed almost the entire rise of organized GvG? GvG has only exploded in popularity in NA in the last two months or so, and you admit to having seen almost none of it?

What in the world are you even doing here? I am completely baffled.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Zikory that was what I was getting at. “GvG” still effects wvw on servers that are less organized then we are this will stunt progression and kill competition. What is the harm in me tracking the effect none right.

I see no harm in it but your talking about something very few will side with you on. Most servers or player care very little about PPT (as said in many threads on this forum) Blackgate is one of few that play the PPT game yet most of the major WvW guilds support our GvG’ers. I just saying that your not going to get through to anyone about “PPT effects” when not many care about PPT.

Think about this, SoR/JQ/BG are all ways going to be in T1 (maybe drop to T2 for a match or two, Unless they implode) They have the coverage to maintain rating to stay in the match up best suited for them. Lower tiers are in a different boat because of the inconsistent population of the servers they get matched with and the random match ups, so most guilds GvG or play for fights rather then playing a losing PPT game.

Thesilentflute.8761:

saiyr.3071:

Thesilentflute.8761:

I am a Tpvpers aswell only 460 people in NA have more wins than myself

I would like to know your actual ranking (PS your win ranking is only 501 right now) so we know how expert you are

Yea like I said I have not played in 2 months I was 310 then 460 last i checked now it looks like 501 sad face. My rank is like 89% soloing in team I have not done any solo. Lol does the GvGer want to give me some tips lol.

No, I was just wondering why you thought win ranking meant anything. I am also amused at how a “tPvPer” thinks 20v20 is no-skill but 80v80 has skill. I guess technically it does have skill…exactly one skill

1111111

Thesilentflute.8761:

Zikory that was what I was getting at. “GvG” still effects wvw on servers that are less organized then we are this will stunt progression and kill competition. What is the harm in me tracking the effect none right.

Except you can’t even track it. Still haven’t explained the 10k from Blackgate in your post