Guild Wars 2

I really appreciate the fact that time was spent on the WvW gamemode. It can often feel like no one cares. However, it feels like no one cares because there are so many problems that go unaddressed…and many of those problems are not going away. The effect is like breaking your leg in a car wreck and being given a new car…you’re still not walking anywhere.

That said, there are some parts of this update that really resonate with common WvW complaints.

-I would love to buy a cheeseburger for whoever suggested that Cannons/Oils/Mortars should be invulnerable to player attacks.
-Making guild buffs permanent is another stellar idea.
-Removing the gold cost on upgrades is a godsend.
-Shaving Dolyaks makes them less adorable, but giving them a defense buff when chaperoned is a good call.
-The new scouting function of Sentries and Towers is wonderful.

And here are a few things that were not solved. I tried to restrict these to relatively simple things; stuff for which there is precedent elsewhere in the game.

-Guards have not been updated to deal with new levels of player equipment and higher damage levels. They are, at best, a joke.
——-Guards should have higher Vitality as it is useful against both power and condi.
——-Guards should have some anti-stealth measures so that thieves/mesmers don’t make them look so dumb.
——-Guards should do some condi damage so that bunker builds don’t counter the whole camp/tower/keep.
——-Guards should grow stronger as the structure is upgraded.

-Catapults are best used at point-blank range.
——-This results in them taking down walls much faster than intended.
——-LoS changes mean it is difficult to defend against them when against a wall.
——-The way AoE maps onto wall tops also provides questionable cover.

-Wall siege is non-repairable.
——-Taking it down to a sliver of hp in preparation for a later attack leaves the defenders with no ability to respond.
——-Since the prompt for it is ‘Use’ rather than ‘Repair’ like walls, allow players to obtain a siege repair hammer from supply stations that they can use to repair siege.

-Chaperoning Dolyaks is as unrewarding as raising children IRL.
——-On EB, the occasional BEAR attack nets 40 wexp, but on Borderlands there is literally no way to get wexp from walking yaks.
——-To incentivize this critical part of WvW, successfully escorting a yak should give wexp for every location that it reaches (in case the final destination is hostile).
——-A new WvW spec should allow for boosting Dolyak speed when near and perhaps their defense/toughness.

-Defending structures is not as useful as rampaging.
——-The only incentive to defend is to retain upgrades, which then make it easier to defend. The wexp equates roughly to four player kills and seems to trigger only randomly.
——-In the time it takes to defend a good siege, a group could go take a bunch of stuff instead. This should be an attractive option in very few situations, not most of them. It is part of the reason that EotM is a karma train.
——-Upgraded structures should have a higher PPT value and should reward wexp proportional to what hostiles would gain upon taking it. Defending a keep should be incentivized more than defending a camp.

-When rampaging, there is a high incentive to cannibalize the weakest server.
——-Taking a Fortified tower gives no more points than taking a paper tower, so the optimal strategy is to just run over the least populous server again and again.
——-Upgraded structures should give bonus points on capture proportional to the bonus PPT they were granting their owners. Thus, while upgraded structures means your enemy gets more points on taking them, you still get more points out of them first so long as they don’t flip immediately after upgrading.
——-Upgraded structures should also reward more wexp on flip. It may not be a poor idea to reduce the base wexp amount to limit the effectiveness of kicking the underdog.

-Scouting structures should be incentivized.
——-It leads to more fights and less uncontested (boring) caps.
——-To avoid encouraging AFKers, increase the rewards for such scouting activities as repairing walls (and siege, when that is possible) and for building wall siege.
——-Add a WvW spec that buffs workers speed and supply capacity when an ally with a Supervisor’s Banner (available at supply stations) is nearby. To compensate, slow the base pace of upgrades a bit. With the banner and no spec, it should be a little faster than before. Fully specced, it should take half as long as before. This should reward wexp/exp as it replaces time that could be spent rampaging.
——-Add a WvW spec that shows a ping on the wall or gate being attacked within a certain distance.
——-Add a WvW spec that increases the power of a camp’s guards when the player is in range.
——-Add a WvW spec that reveals stealthed enemies when out of combat and within the walls of a keep or tower. A team should not have to spend tens of supply and silver to have a chance at successfully sweeping a structure for a mesmer.

-Golem rushes negate substantial player time and effort.
——-Golems should function as a high investment, high return siege unit, but currently they are slowly stockpiled and then flung at an objective in such numbers that there is hardly a counter.
——-Players should not be able to Waypoint while piloting a golem. Mesmer portals should be able to transfer a maximum of 1-2 golems, as they are way larger than people. This should leave their effectiveness intact while removing some workarounds to their drawbacks.

-Edge of the Mist supply can foil a carefully executed supply starvation strategy.
——-EotM supply and WvW supply should be two different entities. This is not aimed at the supply drops, but the actual supply one gets when going to the EotM map.

-Excess WvW levels have no function
——-Allow them to be redeemed for badges or siege or some other WvW related thing.

-The Commander system is underutilized.
——-Add a WvW spec that gives allies minor stat increases when near a Commander. This should not stack and should require ~10+ squad members to activate.
——-Add a spec that gives the Commander increased stats for each member in their squad. These guys are the heroes among heroes, after all. They should stand out on the battlefield.
——-Cap the number of squad members. 30 is likely a good number.
——-Add special elite skills that the Commander can use to buff squad members to incentivize following a tag and make it obvious that there are benefits.
——-Allow a Commander tag to be obtained with WvW badges or excess levels.
——-If a Commander takes an objective, announce their name and guild when announcing the capture.
——-Increase the reward on event completion if the Commander and squad member are in the same guild.

-Roaming should be incentivized as it is a distinct flavor of WvW, but give it better ties to the overall goal structure.
——-Add mob spawns or gathering nodes that drop items that can be given to a keep or tower to boost its supply slightly or give it a boost to its sentry ability, defenses, etc. If a player is killed while carrying one of these, it drops and is available for the killer to cart off.

-Normalize server populations.
——-Divorce WvW servers from literal servers so that there’s no need to have the same number.
——-Calculating how full a server is based on regular WvW players is a good first step, but with the expansion (and effective WvW renewal) allow discounted or free transfers from a full server to a sparsely populated server.
——-Have different population caps for different groups of WvW servers. Some can have a max of ~20 people for a map, others a max of ~50 and so on. That way players can choose just how large-scale they want their experience to be and do not have to contend with fighting huge blobs if their server cannot field the same. If there is more demand for servers of a certain size (ie: massive queue times across the board) then adjustments can be made.

-Consider how balance changes affect WvW.
——-In PvP/PvE, stealth and condi are far less effective than in WvW. A serious impediment to getting new blood on the field (in a non-literal way) is the droves of cheese-build roamers picking off those that don’t yet know their way around. It’s one thing to suddenly have to fight an enemy, it’s another to suddenly get wrecked by an enemy whose build wins 1v1 in an overwhelming number of non-mirror situations. If it’s banned in PvP, it should probably not be in mass PvP either.

I’m sure I missed some things, and I’m sure people will let me know too.

I was nodding all the way through this. Good suggestions; some that have been put up before, and many that build on ideas that have been suggested before.

Thanks for the new Borderland! What’s next?

3 more years!

WvW is like all the bad bits from this song, and none of the good. Just hope we dont have to suffer the 30 years of hurt!

WvW just aint coming home…..

This is utopia. I agree with 95% of your suggestions but we will never see it. Game will die Before they will be implemented

Anet could kill blobbing. If too many warriors and guardians together debuff and if too many players together debuff.

If I recall correctly they did actually say they were going to do that. But as usual Soon™ is still a long time away.

Huge thumbs up from me on these ideas! Love all of them!

nice, comprehensive well worded list. 100% agree and will read again.

Sadly they will also have to start working on that 3rd flavor of borderland map that they promised since that will be the one thing all the forum junkies will be screaming for a couple of months after HoT launch and will take them at least another year to done. ><

Sviel.7493:

-Guards have not been updated to deal with new levels of player equipment and higher damage levels. They are, at best, a joke.
——-Guards should have higher Vitality as it is useful against both power and condi.
——-Guards should have some anti-stealth measures so that thieves/mesmers don’t make them look so dumb.
——-Guards should do some condi damage so that bunker builds don’t counter the whole camp/tower/keep.
——-Guards should grow stronger as the structure is upgraded.

No thinks. This idea that we need to buff PvE mobs is absurd to me. We do not need more PvE in WvW thank you.

Sviel.7493:

-Catapults are best used at point-blank range.
——-This results in them taking down walls much faster than intended.
——-LoS changes mean it is difficult to defend against them when against a wall.
——-The way AoE maps onto wall tops also provides questionable cover.

There is no evidence of what is or was intended, that is an assumption you have made.

Catapults next to the target also makes catas much easier to destroy. All LoS changes did was effect ACs, which are not the only defense. As well, they have specifically stated all the LoS changes are not complete. With that in mind, it seems it may be wise to have a catapult discussion once the changes are complete, and not before.

Sviel.7493:

-Wall siege is non-repairable.
——-Taking it down to a sliver of hp in preparation for a later attack leaves the defenders with no ability to respond.
——-Since the prompt for it is ‘Use’ rather than ‘Repair’ like walls, allow players to obtain a siege repair hammer from supply stations that they can use to repair siege.

No siege is repairable, not just wall siege. Though I do support the idea of being able to invest supply into repairing it.

Sviel.7493:

-Chaperoning Dolyaks is as unrewarding as raising children IRL.
——-On EB, the occasional BEAR attack nets 40 wexp, but on Borderlands there is literally no way to get wexp from walking yaks.
——-To incentivize this critical part of WvW, successfully escorting a yak should give wexp for every location that it reaches (in case the final destination is hostile).
——-A new WvW spec should allow for boosting Dolyak speed when near and perhaps their defense/toughness.

Yeah, I agree that there should be bonuses supporting escorting, as well as more rewarding benefits to the time investment.

Sviel.7493:

-Defending structures is not as useful as rampaging.
——-The only incentive to defend is to retain upgrades, which then make it easier to defend. The wexp equates roughly to four player kills and seems to trigger only randomly.
——-In the time it takes to defend a good siege, a group could go take a bunch of stuff instead. This should be an attractive option in very few situations, not most of them. It is part of the reason that EotM is a karma train.
——-Upgraded structures should have a higher PPT value and should reward wexp proportional to what hostiles would gain upon taking it. Defending a keep should be incentivized more than defending a camp.

You are incorrect on some things here in my opinion. Defending is not purely incentivized by retaining upgrades, that only adds value to defending. Keeping a location for the next PPT tick is very incentivizing.

I agree that upgraded structures should receive more PPT. Though your third point here seems to counter your complain in your first point.

Your second point here though, strikes me as problematic though. That is literally what karma training is. I do not support suggestions that specifically promote a karma train situation.

Sviel.7493:

-When rampaging, there is a high incentive to cannibalize the weakest server.
——-Taking a Fortified tower gives no more points than taking a paper tower, so the optimal strategy is to just run over the least populous server again and again.
——-Upgraded structures should give bonus points on capture proportional to the bonus PPT they were granting their owners. Thus, while upgraded structures means your enemy gets more points on taking them, you still get more points out of them first so long as they don’t flip immediately after upgrading.
——-Upgraded structures should also reward more wexp on flip. It may not be a poor idea to reduce the base wexp amount to limit the effectiveness of kicking the underdog.

I do not agree with your second point. In my experience, players prefer to try to take upgraded keeps to prevent the upgrade benefits.

Sviel.7493:

-Scouting structures should be incentivized.
——-It leads to more fights and less uncontested (boring) caps.
——-To avoid encouraging AFKers, increase the rewards for such scouting activities as repairing walls (and siege, when that is possible) and for building wall siege.
——-Add a WvW spec that buffs workers speed and supply capacity when an ally with a Supervisor’s Banner (available at supply stations) is nearby. To compensate, slow the base pace of upgrades a bit. With the banner and no spec, it should be a little faster than before. Fully specced, it should take half as long as before. This should reward wexp/exp as it replaces time that could be spent rampaging.
——-Add a WvW spec that shows a ping on the wall or gate being attacked within a certain distance.
——-Add a WvW spec that increases the power of a camp’s guards when the player is in range.
——-Add a WvW spec that reveals stealthed enemies when out of combat and within the walls of a keep or tower. A team should not have to spend tens of supply and silver to have a chance at successfully sweeping a structure for a mesmer.

Yeah, scouting need benefits. How do you propose that is measured? Simply suggesting what you feel things need is not particularly helpful without good suggestions on how it should be applied.

I disagree with buffing guards when a player is around as a WvW spec. If you want something defended, players need to do it. This cry for NPC dependence belongs in PvE.

Sviel.7493:

-Golem rushes negate substantial player time and effort.
——-Golems should function as a high investment, high return siege unit, but currently they are slowly stockpiled and then flung at an objective in such numbers that there is hardly a counter.
——-Players should not be able to Waypoint while piloting a golem. Mesmer portals should be able to transfer a maximum of 1-2 golems, as they are way larger than people. This should leave their effectiveness intact while removing some workarounds to their drawbacks.

Blaming a negation of player time and effort on golems specifically, makes no sense. That same blame can be laid on any attacking using any siege.

Golems are high investment, high reward already.

I wouldn’t mind removing the ability to WP golems, but only under the condition that golems can move at the speed of any player and receive all player movement buffs.

Sviel.7493:

-Edge of the Mist supply can foil a carefully executed supply starvation strategy.
——-EotM supply and WvW supply should be two different entities. This is not aimed at the supply drops, but the actual supply one gets when going to the EotM map.

Why? It gives EotM value. If you do not want your supply from EotM to go to another team, then stop it yourself. You have a reoccurring theme here of wanting the game changed to suit things that make you work. Do the work to stop things from happening instead of wanting them handed to you or removed.

Sviel.7493:

-Excess WvW levels have no function
——-Allow them to be redeemed for badges or siege or some other WvW related thing.

Sure, why not. They need some use, I am just not sure if this is the best use to add.

Sviel.7493:

-The Commander system is underutilized.
——-Add a WvW spec that gives allies minor stat increases when near a Commander. This should not stack and should require ~10+ squad members to activate.
——-Add a spec that gives the Commander increased stats for each member in their squad. These guys are the heroes among heroes, after all. They should stand out on the battlefield.
——-Cap the number of squad members. 30 is likely a good number.
——-Add special elite skills that the Commander can use to buff squad members to incentivize following a tag and make it obvious that there are benefits.
——-Allow a Commander tag to be obtained with WvW badges or excess levels.
——-If a Commander takes an objective, announce their name and guild when announcing the capture.
——-Increase the reward on event completion if the Commander and squad member are in the same guild.

No thank you to a stat buff around commanders. I am a regular commander and dislike this idea immensely. Again your asking for artificial benefits for doing what already works.

Big NO on your squad caps. Why do you want to punish me or anyone else because we have over 30 guildies on at once?

-Roaming should be incentivized as it is a distinct flavor of WvW, but give it better ties to the overall goal structure.
——-Add mob spawns or gathering nodes that drop items that can be given to a keep or tower to boost its supply slightly or give it a boost to its sentry ability, defenses, etc. If a player is killed while carrying one of these, it drops and is available for the killer to cart off.

Roaming does not need to be incentivized. If you want incentives as a roamer, win fights and take the loot bags. The other aspects you should be doing, such as scouting and escorting dolyaks, flipping camps, and so on, would receive benefits from already mentioned aspects.

A resounding NO to your idea of adding mob spawns. Again your trying to destroy WvW with bad PvE ideas. Go play PvE if you want to fight spawning AI mobs.

Sviel.7493:

-Normalize server populations.
——-Divorce WvW servers from literal servers so that there’s no need to have the same number.
——-Calculating how full a server is based on regular WvW players is a good first step, but with the expansion (and effective WvW renewal) allow discounted or free transfers from a full server to a sparsely populated server.
——-Have different population caps for different groups of WvW servers. Some can have a max of ~20 people for a map, others a max of ~50 and so on. That way players can choose just how large-scale they want their experience to be and do not have to contend with fighting huge blobs if their server cannot field the same. If there is more demand for servers of a certain size (ie: massive queue times across the board) then adjustments can be made.

Define “regular WvW players”? This is a casual game by design. A player shouldn’t be required to play as often as you personally demand, for them to be counted as a regular WvW player.

Sviel.7493:

-Consider how balance changes affect WvW.
——-In PvP/PvE, stealth and condi are far less effective than in WvW. A serious impediment to getting new blood on the field (in a non-literal way) is the droves of cheese-build roamers picking off those that don’t yet know their way around. It’s one thing to suddenly have to fight an enemy, it’s another to suddenly get wrecked by an enemy whose build wins 1v1 in an overwhelming number of non-mirror situations. If it’s banned in PvP, it should probably not be in mass PvP either.

You have some inaccurate statements here. Conditions are less valuable in WvW then anywhere else. Group cleanses make certain of that. The only time that is not true is in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2. Once full groups are involved, your conditions lose value fast.

It is absurd to try to balance around 1v1 in a massive PvP game aspect. I agree some very specific combinations of specific professions utilities, weapons skills, and traits could use individual adjustments.

Glad to see these going over well, mostly. I tried not to put anything too crazy out there

dancingmonkey.4902:

No thinks. This idea that we need to buff PvE mobs is absurd to me. We do not need more PvE in WvW thank you.

WvW is not GvG. It should not be thought of as simply a mass PvP server. That is one aspect, but as the focus should be PPT, there is no harm buffing guards that are only interacted with when taking PPT objectives. It’s not like I’m advocating for hiring an army of NPCs to fight your enemies.

There is no evidence of what is or was intended, that is an assumption you have made.

I think it’s fair to assume that catapults were intended to be used chiefly at range, which slows them down considerably. Thus, I contend that they are doing damage faster than intended. If you disagree, that’s fine.

Your second point here though, strikes me as problematic though. That is literally what karma training is. I do not support suggestions that specifically promote a karma train situation.

Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding? My point is that right now it is more attractive to take objectives instead of spending time defending objectives. I say this because I advocate a change with the intent of discouraging karma training.

Why? It gives EotM value. If you do not want your supply from EotM to go to another team, then stop it yourself. You have a reoccurring theme here of wanting the game changed to suit things that make you work. Do the work to stop things from happening instead of wanting them handed to you or removed.

I’m not referring to the supply drops in citadel. Rather, I’m talking about someone porting into EotM, grabbing supply from a structure or generator, then porting into WvW with said supply. That sort of crossover is problematic, not the supply drops that are earned. At least, those aren’t problematic in this way.

No thank you to a stat buff around commanders. I am a regular commander and dislike this idea immensely. Again your asking for artificial benefits for doing what already works.

Big NO on your squad caps. Why do you want to punish me or anyone else because we have over 30 guildies on at once?

The idea is to give an incentive to do the thing that is within the game itself. It should help with steering players towards a set of generally positive behavior.

The squad caps won’t punish anyone, they will just benefit a certain amount of people and no more. The idea is to avoid making a blob strategy the only strategy. If you want to run more people, nothing’s stopping you. Additionally, I’m not married to the number 30. Is there another that you might suggest?

Define “regular WvW players”? This is a casual game by design. A player shouldn’t be required to play as often as you personally demand, for them to be counted as a regular WvW player.

You’ll have to ask Anet about that. I was told that they now calculate server size by the number of people that regularly play WvW. I don’t know their specific algorithm.

At any rate, the idea is that servers with big PvE populations aren’t marked as full when they can’t field nearly as many people as non-full servers that are more WvW focused. I think it was a good call on their part.

You have some inaccurate statements here. Conditions are less valuable in WvW then anywhere else. Group cleanses make certain of that. The only time that is not true is in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2. Once full groups are involved, your conditions lose value fast.

It sounds like your WvW experience is mostly running in a sizeable guild group. Ask anyone who runs alone or in small groups and you’ll find that there are many abuse cases that tend to center on condi builds. I’m not saying that condi builds are the new OP, just that there are too many abuse cases to ignore.

When I say they are less effective in PvP, I’m referring to their inability to cap and fight at the same time due to stealth and their decreased ability to disengage due to more cramped fighting spaces.

OP, they need to hire you.

I know some of your thoughts got a tiny bit of criticism, but reading through the complaints I thought he misunderstood what you were saying or trying to say for many of them. Other things that were pointed out I would certainly agree with what you said on a more consistent basis than what he said.

Overall great post, and while not short, you summed it up nicely and it was clean and easy to read. Well done ……now don’t hold your breath.

Sviel.7493:

WvW is not GvG. It should not be thought of as simply a mass PvP server. That is one aspect, but as the focus should be PPT, there is no harm buffing guards that are only interacted with when taking PPT objectives. It’s not like I’m advocating for hiring an army of NPCs to fight your enemies.

No one said anything about GvG. Those are your words, not mine.

And yes, there is every reason even if your PPT focused, that it should be entirely based on player efforts, not PvE mob efforts.

Sviel.7493:

I think it’s fair to assume that catapults were intended to be used chiefly at range, which slows them down considerably. Thus, I contend that they are doing damage faster than intended. If you disagree, that’s fine.

When a locations is properly defended, they almost have to be used at range. If they are within players attack range, they will be destroyed quickly.

Sviel.7493:

Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding? My point is that right now it is more attractive to take objectives instead of spending time defending objectives. I say this because I advocate a change with the intent of discouraging karma training.

I agree with your intent here. I simply do not feel your suggestion in this specific area helped promote defending.

Sviel.7493:

I’m not referring to the supply drops in citadel. Rather, I’m talking about someone porting into EotM, grabbing supply from a structure or generator, then porting into WvW with said supply. That sort of crossover is problematic, not the supply drops that are earned. At least, those aren’t problematic in this way.

Yup, I misunderstood completely on this point. My apologies.

I agree that you should not be capable to bring supply back directly from EotM. WvW, in my opinion, should be a closed system as far as supply is concerned.

Sviel.7493:

The squad caps won’t punish anyone, they will just benefit a certain amount of people and no more. The idea is to avoid making a blob strategy the only strategy. If you want to run more people, nothing’s stopping you. Additionally, I’m not married to the number 30. Is there another that you might suggest?

Yes, it will very literally punish a guild for having more members on a map then the cap you want.

In my case, I am in a large and active WvW guild that is allied with other guilds. When my guild has 47 players on one map, there is no reason to lock some out of the squad. Nor do I feel if we have 25 on and are allied guild has 25 on, that we cannot squad up

Sviel.7493:

You’ll have to ask Anet about that. I was told that they now calculate server size by the number of people that regularly play WvW. I don’t know their specific algorithm.

I can agree that knowing how they define it would help any discussion immensely. I only asked because it read to me as if you were implying something to suggest you had a definition in mind

Sviel.7493:

At any rate, the idea is that servers with big PvE populations aren’t marked as full when they can’t field nearly as many people as non-full servers that are more WvW focused. I think it was a good call on their part.

I do not think they are. I think there are a fair amount of players that are primary PvE that occasionally play WvW, and they skew the numbers at times.

Sviel.7493:

It sounds like your WvW experience is mostly running in a sizeable guild group. Ask anyone who runs alone or in small groups and you’ll find that there are many abuse cases that tend to center on condi builds. I’m not saying that condi builds are the new OP, just that there are too many abuse cases to ignore.

You are incorrect in your assumptions. I do run large forces at times. Those times are probably around 25% of the time. We tend to break into 5, 10, sometimes 15 man groups to split up and hit targets all over the map at the same time.

You tell me to ask any one who runs alone some questions. I could care less about anyone who runes alone. This game mode is in no way balanced around them. I roam alone or in a 5 man group occasionally myself. In no way does my experience suggest that condi builds are problematic. My experience suggest to me that very specific professions have some weapon skill, utility skill, elite skill, trait combinations that are over tuned. And sure, they abuse that over tunes aspect of the combination. That doesn’t define conditions as a problem in any way. That defines those specific combinations of skills, utilities, and traits, when used together in one build, as a problem.

It turns out invisible map queue zergs were next.