The Arena Wait Time and GvG (take 2)

The Arena Wait Time and GvG (take 2)

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Posted by: benjenx.6427

benjenx.6427

Copied from the HoT main forum, as it is probably more relevant here.

So I want to start my wall of text by saying thank you to Anet. Thank you for noticing and dedicating development time to supporting the GvG community with this feature (small note, for now and the rest of my post, the GvG i am referring to is the current 15v or 20v deathmatch, not the Gw1 GvG of old). I really do mean that. This feature should allow our community to flourish and grow, increasing both the competitiveness in large scale Gw2 pvp combat, but also should help WvW by reducing the constant transferring of a chunk of the WvW population in order to pursue the fights we enjoy. I’m also excited about the bigger arena that is in development, and I appreciate that it seems like there will be continuing development in this area. I look forward to working cordially with Anet on this.

However, I am worried about the accessibility of Arenas for many WvW guilds. I am a member of [BMO] Adventurethyme currently located on Crystal Desert, one of the guilds in the “GvG Scene.” I have been involved in GvG/WvWraiding guilds for about 2 years now. And I think that this two-month delay really will hamper much of the enthusiasm for this feature.

Currently, many of the players who have engaged in GvG in the past are on hiatus, waiting for HoT, and watching to see how guild halls effect the scene. Many of these players have been involved for almost 3 years, found the Obsidian Sanctum a godsend, and have been active in feedback and the online community to try to facilitate a better, more healthy GvG scene. Many players are waiting to buy HoT until they see that the arenas work and are effective. If the arenas are so heavily timegated, then many of these players that would return will probably skip buying the expansion, and in the two months that it takes to unlock these arenas, these players may not see what they want, and may forget about the game entirely.

In addition, while many guilds remain for longer periods of time, the typical lifetime of a GvG guild is about 5-6 months. If for the first third of their existence new guilds are unable to fully participate in this system, and can only play against guilds who have been together for at least two months, or borrow time in an arena of another guild. This heavily impacts the accessibility of GvG, as new guilds will have a very hard time starting and sticking.

Also, GvG guilds, and many of the smaller WvW guilds in general, will have big problems producing these guild halls. Most PvE guilds tend to have tiers of involvement, with some number of players on every day for many hours, bulges in population during NA (or EU) Prime-time, with guild members mostly doing their own things, aside from organized guild events (Teq, TTW, Guild missions, champ trains, etc.) This allows guilds that have players that rep and hang out for several hours a day to rake in influence, and often times those players accumulate in game wealth through many of the ways PvE offers.

Most GvG guilds, however, are smaller, and often spend much of their time in WvW, seeking out fights in openfield, or GvGing in Obsidian Sanctum. In most cases, a given guild’s population trickles in, to whatever the guild’s size is peaking at the guilds scheduled raid time. Then, the raid lasts for 2-4 hours, and then most of the players go to bed.

It may seem frivolous to talk about guild schedules and attendance for bigger guilds, but most of the guilds who would utilize the arenas regularly, and specifically for this team deathmatch functionality, have a HUGE disadvantage in producing a guild arena. WvW isn’t very rewarding in gold, and GvG is even less so, which is fine as that’s not the purpose of those game modes, but buying influence to speed the guild hall requires huge amounts of in game gold and influence, which most of the guilds for whom this arena is targeted are sorely lacking.

A combination of these factors may lead to a diminishing and eventual disappearance of the community that all of this development time and effort (which I say again is MUCH appreciated) was intended to benefit. And that is not an ideal situation for anyone involved, game designers or players.

Now, I am DEFINITELY not saying that these arenas should be free and on demand at 12:01 pm PST on launch day. There absolutely SHOULD be effort expended in getting these arenas, and that is an important thing for the implementation of Guild Halls. I get that. I’m just worried about the scale of this SPECIFIC time for this SPECIFIC area of the Guild Halls and unintended consequences occurring.

In terms of constructive ideas, maybe make WvW kills or location captures a way to speed up the process somewhat. Or perhaps have competitions in a neutral guild hall with guild arenas as the reward. I am not a game designer, so my ideas may be stupid, but I have faith in both Anet and the community to come up with a smart solution that makes having a guild arena an achievement for any guild that has one, but is not un-achievable for many guilds who DESPERATELY want them.

tl;dr : I think that a long timegate on Guild Arenas will make them ineffective at addressing some of the concerns of players who are pushing for them the hardest, and I hope that we can find a smart way to address this before the expansion drops. Hopefully we can get a feedback thread started for ideas.

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Posted by: Random.4691

Random.4691

Well said, it’s good you took the time to do this, most of us just scream and yell and it gets us no where, myself included.

Maybe if we keep this one polite and constructive they will at the very least consider some tweeks.

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Posted by: benjenx.6427

benjenx.6427

Well said, it’s good you took the time to do this, most of us just scream and yell and it gets us no where, myself included.

Maybe if we keep this one polite and constructive they will at the very least consider some tweeks.

I’ve found that ppl respond more positively to positive comments. Call me crazy…

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Posted by: Vespin.8642

Vespin.8642

This is very much so spot-on. I think it should definitely be something to work towards, but the guilds who will use these the most have populations of between 25 and 35 on average and spend almost all their time raiding in WvW or fighting other guilds. ANet is correct that we need to work for these, but the work we need to do needs to accommodate this fact or the feature is going to flop.

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Posted by: Arcan Soulstorm.4356

Arcan Soulstorm.4356

They’ve said arenas are upgradeable.
They’ve said the full guild hall with all features would need 6-9 months.
If I consider the two months now, the denial mode in my head insists of this estimate being for the fully upgraded guild arena which would lead to the basic arena within a much shorter time. (Oh sweet summer child…)
I think one week would be acceptable, giving the returning guilds a bit of time to reassemble and doing scrims for the feeling on the borders, but two months seem a bit high-end.

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Posted by: benjenx.6427

benjenx.6427

They said it would take two months to “unlock” guild arenas, not fully upgrade them

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

What if Anet leaked a list of “ingredients” that will be needed to build the arena?

With launch less than a month away, at best it will give the more organized guilds a one-month advantage to the time sink — if not sooner through mass grinding/cooperation?

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Lapiy.7160

Lapiy.7160

+1, 2 months seems way to overtuned

Servers: Crystal Desert, Underworld, Eredon Terrace
Guilds: [TDS] The Desert Squad-Retired, [bM] Badmash, [BoRP] Bunch Of Random Players
Always looking for fights gvg’s etc just hit me up!

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Agreed, if possible could we have WvW guild missions perhaps greatly facilitate the progress on the Arena?

2 months is just so long, even a month would be much more bearable!

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Polismassa.6740

Polismassa.6740

I said this in the other thread before seeing this one but anyway…

I think that they should offer more in the way of customizing not just the hall itself, but the way we upgrade the guild hall. Why is it that tavern has to be first? why can’t we start by working towards the guild arena?

I like that the hall takes a minimum of 9 months to become fully unlocked, it adds a sense of progress and prestige to guilds that manage to reach that level. What I don’t like however, is that everyone is going to do it in the exact same way, getting one after another in the same order. The best way to make guild halls feel unique and fully customizable (MMOs are all about customization after all) is to let us upgrade them the way we want.

[IX]

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Posted by: Manvaeris.9857

Manvaeris.9857

I think that a long timegate on Guild Arenas will make them ineffective at addressing some of the concerns of players who are pushing for them the hardest, and I hope that we can find a smart way to address this before the expansion drops. Hopefully we can get a feedback thread started for ideas.

+1, Well said!

Elementalist of [Salt] – Kodash

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Posted by: Trajan.4953

Trajan.4953

Well written, well thought out post!
All points are valid and it is very true, at least in my experience, that the guilds most likely to use said feature spend little or no time in PVE preferring to hone their skills in WvW.

CCCP….

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Posted by: Notsoperky.4291

Notsoperky.4291

Just looked at that arena picture- that area is so small as to be pretty pathetic as regards any tactics apart from ‘ball up and mash buttons’. And they say they tested it with 20v20..were they standing on top of each other?

There is no real area for movement, no room for anything really as it’s all within range of most spells without having to even move.

Was hoping for a bit more than a (not very) glorified sandbox- like actual real guild battles like we used to have in the real Guilds Wars game that this one was (incorrectly) named after.

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Posted by: Dawntree.7246

Dawntree.7246

Now, I am DEFINITELY not saying that these arenas should be free and on demand at 12:01 pm PST on launch day. There absolutely SHOULD be effort expended in getting these arenas, and that is an important thing for the implementation of Guild Halls. I get that. I’m just worried about the scale of this SPECIFIC time for this SPECIFIC area of the Guild Halls and unintended consequences occurring.

+1

Emanuel Dawntree – Nord Guardian of [TasH] – 9×80
Whiteside Ridge

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Posted by: benjenx.6427

benjenx.6427

I’d like to shamelessly bump my own idea on a fix, and that is to have WvW player kills and caps somehow lower the time for unlock, pushing starting GvG guilds into WvW while they wait for their guild hall. I think this would be a good way to keep the guilds from secluding themselves from WvW.
In addition, it give WvW players an opportunity to work for the guild halls, and still have that feeling of achievement and effort, without having to do content they don’t particularly enjoy or participate in, kinda like how Legendary Weapons don’t require a PvP component.
Like I said in the OP, I’m not a game designer, but I talked to my computer pals and they said this change would be doable without a huge amount of Dev time, so I think its a compromise that both makes sense, and could be implemented without to much schedule wrecking.
To pull some balancing ideas out of my rear end, I might have it balanced so that guilds that raid 4-8 hours a day get it in 1-2 weeks, guilds that raid 3-4 hours get it in 2-3 weeks, guilds that raid 2-3 hours get it in 5-6 weeks, and guilds that raid an hour or less get almost no deduction.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

For those like me who don’t visit other areas of the forum, OP commended on respectful feedback gets changes for arena:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/The-Arena-Wait-Time-and-GvG/first#post5559684

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: RickardJames.8267

RickardJames.8267

I agree that 2 months is a bit long for access to a feature for a guild who’s lifespans usually are maybe 4-6 months long. They ARE active, they just change names frequently.