Guild Wars 2

Maybe i didn’t understood what Colin was saying but it looks like the “GvG” arena will be the new “Stronghold” map. If it is the case, I think that it is a really bad idea because there will be PvE NPC in the fights and the current GvG is a 15vs15 or a 20vs20. So i wonder if its going to be a specific arena for GvG or that “Stronghold” map

Stronghold is a pvp mode. They arn’t adding arenas for deathmatch gvg’s as far as I know.

Proper gvg with rosters – ladders – rankings was mentioned. Unclear if it was part of stronghold, but did sound gw1 style – ie pvp. No mention of raid size either. If it doesn’t handle large enough party size, then not sure where it fits. Only time will tell on this and many other things – the devil is always in the details.

it would be awesome if we got rankings for 15v15/20v20 deathmatch gvg in the open wvw (as currently defined), AND stronghold as a separate (and main) pvp mode.

If it is a pvp mode then most likely there will be limited stat combos i believe.

I just want to fight people in my guild hall.

Liston.9708:

Proper gvg with rosters – ladders – rankings was mentioned. Unclear if it was part of stronghold, but did sound gw1 style – ie pvp. No mention of raid size either. If it doesn’t handle large enough party size, then not sure where it fits. Only time will tell on this and many other things – the devil is always in the details.

It was part of stronghold.

I’ve heard GvG in GW1 was well received, it had depth to it when it came to strategy (not just straight up TDM) and it had a decent competitive scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJM0xsbHhs

It was also very RTS like – just as they seem to envision WvW.
They just haven’t released every piece of info though, watch the video before judging, because its not Pure TDM as people want.

GW1 GvG (entirely convinced this is the GvG Anet means when they say GvG) holds no resemblance to what GW2 players understand as GvG. I highly doubt the map will hold more than 10 per team and the whole point of the game mode seems to be centered around balancing effort put into controlling NPC’s and locations as well as attacking the enemy’s NPC’s and locations. That is in contract to GvG as we know it as purely TDM.

I have little doubt that “stronghold” will basicly just cut out WvW style keeps and dump say 15vs15 or 20vs20 people on the map. Its a bit larger scale than sPvP, but still just sPvP.

While it may be a great new gameplay mode that is considerably more interesting than the normal conquest style arena, in no way will it be even close to GvG.

GvG is 8 vs 8 from gw115 vs 15 and 20 vs 20 is more of GW2 made in wvw. If any thing talking about GvG should be an spvp talk not a WvW talk.

Jski.6180:

GvG is 8 vs 8 from gw115 vs 15 and 20 vs 20 is more of GW2 made in wvw. If any thing talking about GvG should be an spvp talk not a WvW talk.

That is the concern though. In gw2 Gvg has become a player supported and created content, and in the past it has been in direct conflict with their “gamemode” while actively trying to eliminate any talk of it by moving every thread to the most remote corners of the forum. the gw1 style will simply cater to spvp players and those that Are largely inactive in the gw2 Gvg scene. While I don’t know details like anyone else, npc’s and openfield siege are in direct violation with gw2 Gvg.

Official GW1 GvG existed years before this GW2 fanmade version. Your idea of the gamemode has nothing to do with the original one, so you WvW guys in no way have the right to be upset about GvG not being what you wanted.

It’s like I make a company called Apple in a 3rd world country (years after the company we all know was created) and start selling ice cream, then the real Apple comes to the country and I sue them for the name.

What you do is ZvZ.

witcher.3197:

Official GW1 GvG existed years before this GW2 fanmade version. Your idea of the gamemode has nothing to do with the original one, so you WvW guys in no way have the right to be upset about GvG not being what you wanted.

It’s like I make a company called Apple in a 3rd world country (years after the company we all know was created) and start selling ice cream, then the real Apple comes to the country and I sue them for the name.

What you do is ZvZ.

That is your opinion which is largely based off inexperience of gw2 gvg, And honestly your apple example makes no sense in this context. Gw1 ranger/mesmer have very little in common with gw2’s. Should we not call them something else then? After all as ranger main in gw1 im shamed by the one in gw2

people that gvg dont care what its called but it is in fact a guild vs a guild in a planned organized setting with set rules that govern the entire “gamemode”. It stems from a large portion of the wvw community desiring a way to test themselves against opposing guilds in a wvw format. This has never been provided because it is direct opposition and would detract from the attempts to create spvp into the esport it was hoped to be.

They have even been forced to create their own websites to support this mode (which is largely an unregulated cesspool of personalities). Yet given the player drive and desire more game modes are created for spvp instead which only further reinforces the feeling of a misunderstood and abandoned community.

@indie. I don’t think gvg is practiced by a large portion as you say. Maybe a large portion of your circle of friends, but I am willing to bet a small percentage of WVWers.

That said, With proper support where you can face anyone, I bet it would be enjoyed by more. The question is – do the metrics warrant it? I don’t know and it isn’t my money being spent for the development for me to say anyway…. I’d think a simple sort of half solution is making os eotm style red-blue-green with multiple instances. This way there is more variety on who you can face even if not being perfect.

your right wvw population now days are largely pvx players but 1-2 years ago it was a different story. Most of those guilds have moved on out of frustration and boredom sadly leaving wvw a shadow of its former population #’s.

Indie.4129:

witcher.3197:

Official GW1 GvG existed years before this GW2 fanmade version. Your idea of the gamemode has nothing to do with the original one, so you WvW guys in no way have the right to be upset about GvG not being what you wanted.

It’s like I make a company called Apple in a 3rd world country (years after the company we all know was created) and start selling ice cream, then the real Apple comes to the country and I sue them for the name.

What you do is ZvZ.

That is your opinion which is largely based off inexperience of gw2 gvg, And honestly your apple example makes no sense in this context. Gw1 ranger/mesmer have very little in common with gw2’s. Should we not call them something else then? After all as ranger main in gw1 im shamed by the one in gw2

people that gvg dont care what its called but it is in fact a guild vs a guild in a planned organized setting with set rules that govern the entire “gamemode”. It stems from a large portion of the wvw community desiring a way to test themselves against opposing guilds in a wvw format. This has never been provided because it is direct opposition and would detract from the attempts to create spvp into the esport it was hoped to be.

They have even been forced to create their own websites to support this mode (which is largely an unregulated cesspool of personalities). Yet given the player drive and desire more game modes are created for spvp instead which only further reinforces the feeling of a misunderstood and abandoned community.

1) Stop calling it GvG.
2) You don’t understand what I’m talking about I guess. GW1 mesmer is different from GW2 mesmer. But it’s officially called mesmer. While GvG does not officially exist in GW2 yet, some wvw players did started calling deathmatch their GvG, and now Anet’s adding GvG based on GW1’s.

An example: gw2 does not have a dervish. Let’s say I make a necro build and name it “the dervish”. Some friends of mine acknowledge my build as an unofficial class, the dervish. Then Anet announces to add dervish which is similar to the GW1 one – then I freak out that it’s not even close to what I made.

WvW was never meant to have sub-gamemodes. WvW is WvW.

until gw2 has an officially sanctioned gamemode called gvg it will remain in fact gvg. EOTM is a is a sub-gamemode of wvw

Indie.4129:

until gw2 has an officially sanctioned gamemode called gvg it will remain in fact gvg. EOTM is a is a sub-gamemode of wvw

A sub gamemode where you do the same thing with different secondary objective? It’s like calling Temple of the Silent Storm a different gamemode. I’d say it’s the Hotjoin of WvW.

You can see Colin tried to avoid calling it GvG not to upset some WvW players, but as long as Stronghold’s the only gamemode with a guild ladder, it’s pretty much GvG.

I think i know where our disconnect is. Anyone playing the current gvg doesn’t care what it’s called, I would be fine with calling it competitive baguette jousting, but that doesn’t change the actual description of what it is. People would be happy with even a red/green/blue OS as long as there was a chance to face a wider variety of people.

But, yes it is a sub game mode because it doesn’t impact the actual wvw maps/scores etc. much like unranked vs ranked etc within spvp. It was designed as sub-map for people to play on while waiting in the Queues when population was much higher. Also, the rewards are different, competing servers are different, scoring is different. In many ways it separates itself from wvw

GvGs are probably going to be 10v10 or 15v15 considering the classes are balanced around the basic unit of a party of 5 people.

20v20 will be too blobby for Anet as they will probably consider it not different enough from WvW open field.

Personally I’m hyped about it. I hope there is good map variety and not too many map mechanics that unbalance the combat meta (like a treb that does 10k damage or traps everywhere). I actually like the idea of PvP stats, it’s going to put everyone at the same level right from the start and will make it about skill instead of gear.

the so called GvG what most WvW players understand is nothing more than a keyboard facesmashing extravaganza, blob v blob.

go play GW1 and you will understand the TRUE nature of GvG, and stop calling your version of deathmatch extravaganza a GvG, call it BvB .

Indie.4129:

I think i know where our disconnect is. Anyone playing the current gvg doesn’t care what it’s called, I would be fine with calling it competitive baguette jousting, but that doesn’t change the actual description of what it is. People would be happy with even a red/green/blue OS as long as there was a chance to face a wider variety of people.

+1 for competitive baguette jousting. I’d pay to see that.

And anyone who considers what the wvw community considers “gvg” anything less skilled has another thing coming to them. Sure, 20v20 deathmatches push the limits of what we define as a blob, but one of those blobs is better than the other blob, there are tactics, there are build differences, there are group compositions that differ. If you honestly think it’s facemashing, you’ve got another thing coming to you. There are groups in this game of anywhere from 10 to 20 people who consistently sync their skills and their damage to do more than I’d wager most pvp players can think of. PvP in this game heavily favors builds and player individual skill. What we consider gvg also takes a lot of the same thing, but in a different way.

I know a lot of pvp players that have tried to bridge the gap between pvp and wvw and they get absolutely demolished (some don’t, but the majority that I know get demolished). From PvP they learn to be much more selfish in their builds and their play, and a lot of their egos get in the way. It’s not as if the skill sets are entirely different in either game mode, but the way it’s done is entirely different and until you’ve done both, you won’t know that.

Just a little rant… You may proceed

Stronghold looks more like DotA/LoL MOBA whereas the current GvG people want is a simple 15v15/20v20 deathmatch (wvw setting) where non-participants can spectate.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

I’ve heard GvG in GW1 was well received, it had depth to it when it came to strategy (not just straight up TDM) and it had a decent competitive scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJM0xsbHhs

It was also very RTS like – just as they seem to envision WvW.
They just haven’t released every piece of info though. Watch the video before judging because its not Pure TDM.

http://youtu.be/zkM93pwvWDM
http://vimeo.com/28875923

Posting some more vids, though non-gw1 players might not know whats goin on

Cake.4920:

http://youtu.be/zkM93pwvWDM
http://vimeo.com/28875923

Posting some more vids, though non-gw1 players might not know whats goin on

That QQ vs EW gvg was kittening amazing.

Salty purists…lol

I say keep the gvg traditional gw1 style.. 8v8 stronghold. 20v20 and 15v15 is mindless

“Stack, might , veil, drop aoe bomb, back up”

Anything that involves a Guild competing against another in form of PVP is in my opinion GVG. However, I am keeping an open mind to the new system whereas I am actually looking forward to more organized battles and smaller teams.

Gorefiend.9675:

GW1 GvG (entirely convinced this is the GvG Anet means when they say GvG) holds no resemblance to what GW2 players understand as GvG. I highly doubt the map will hold more than 10 per team and the whole point of the game mode seems to be centered around balancing effort put into controlling NPC’s and locations as well as attacking the enemy’s NPC’s and locations. That is in contract to GvG as we know it as purely TDM.

not so sure about that, there was a thread about how would be GvG in Gw2 if classes arent even the same, for what i see( allow me to use imagination) stronghold will have a lord 2 side base(probably a ship for invader and the GH for defender there will be several objectives for 3 teams of five like we had in Alliance Battles, that would be cool i think.

It will be far more than the team DM

Melanion.4892:

Indie.4129:

I think i know where our disconnect is. Anyone playing the current gvg doesn’t care what it’s called, I would be fine with calling it competitive baguette jousting, but that doesn’t change the actual description of what it is. People would be happy with even a red/green/blue OS as long as there was a chance to face a wider variety of people.

+1 for competitive baguette jousting. I’d pay to see that.

And anyone who considers what the wvw community considers “gvg” anything less skilled has another thing coming to them. Sure, 20v20 deathmatches push the limits of what we define as a blob, but one of those blobs is better than the other blob, there are tactics, there are build differences, there are group compositions that differ. If you honestly think it’s facemashing, you’ve got another thing coming to you. There are groups in this game of anywhere from 10 to 20 people who consistently sync their skills and their damage to do more than I’d wager most pvp players can think of. PvP in this game heavily favors builds and player individual skill. What we consider gvg also takes a lot of the same thing, but in a different way.

I know a lot of pvp players that have tried to bridge the gap between pvp and wvw and they get absolutely demolished (some don’t, but the majority that I know get demolished). From PvP they learn to be much more selfish in their builds and their play, and a lot of their egos get in the way. It’s not as if the skill sets are entirely different in either game mode, but the way it’s done is entirely different and until you’ve done both, you won’t know that.

Just a little rant… You may proceed

PvP builds are not selfish. Warriors, eles, and eles all heal teams. And all can condi clear allies. Guardians too depending on spec. Mesmers and thieves provide boon ripping and other utility to teams. That leaves only two classes on the selfish side. Necros and rangers.

On the other hand there’s nothing really wrong with having a selfish oriented build in a team if the other four members are providing team oriented utility. It would be the same as the focus parties in gvg. Like Zoose playing fresh air scepter over d/d for DoD in tournies.

I know some gvg guilds have PU mesmers and SA thieves. Those builds are as selfish as anything in spvp.

Most gvg players who enter spvp have little understanding of strategies and end up losing games they shouldn’t. I know the gvg tags. There’s some gvgers who can do both well, as they’re plenty of spvpers who go into wvw and do fine.

SobeSoul.6910:

PvP builds are not selfish. Warriors, eles, and eles all heal teams. And all can condi clear allies. Guardians too depending on spec. Mesmers and thieves provide boon ripping and other utility to teams. That leaves only two classes on the selfish side. Necros and rangers.

On the other hand there’s nothing really wrong with having a selfish oriented build in a team if the other four members are providing team oriented utility. It would be the same as the focus parties in gvg. Like Zoose playing fresh air scepter over d/d for DoD in tournies.

I know some gvg guilds have PU mesmers and SA thieves. Those builds are as selfish as anything in spvp.

Most gvg players who enter spvp have little understanding of strategies and end up losing games they shouldn’t. I know the gvg tags. There’s some gvgers who can do both well, as they’re plenty of spvpers who go into wvw and do fine.

You seem to have missed the point. What I’m saying is that the playstyle is more selfish, not the builds. Often the builds are very similar, actually (for mesmers and thieves, at least).

I’ll give you an example: thieves and mesmers that excel at pvp are generally not as good at larger group play because that’s how they’re used to playing. They make excellent roamers in wvw, for the most part, but IN GENERAL they don’t have as much awareness of the trains in a gvg or larger scale fight. When I say selfish, I mean that they use their escapes more selfishly. I have played with some thieves who are really good at 1v1s and roaming and pvp, but you put them in a 20v20 and it’s a whole different story.

There are some guilds that are really good at pvp who have tried to get really competitive at gvg, and they get pretty good, but then they hit a ceiling. Maybe it’s because of the mentalities of each player, maybe it’s the playstyle, but that’s just the case. They do not to as well in larger fights. Maybe it’s too minimal for most people to see the difference, but that’s just the way things are.

Another example would be 1v1 skill. To pvp, you don’t need to be able to 1v1 very well at all. Of course, you need to have a build that can survive long enough that your team can rotate to you or you need to know when to pull out of a fight. The same goes for gvgs (as we call them in the wvw community). You can be great at a 1v1 or in pvp, but you need to know how things operate in gvgs. Some of the “best” gvg guilds out there arguably don’t have the best players, but they don’t need them. I’ve heard that gvg players (I think it was even in a link posted here). You don’t need to be the best individually skilled players when it comes to larger fights, but you need builds and synergy to overcome that deficit.

I hope that’s clear… although I thought my last post was fairly clear and here we are…

Here is list WHAT is needed to be customized for this “stronghold gvg”:
1. Area for open field combat, without npcs, ruins, or rocks from the ground, according to that slow respawn rate or smthing like that
2. Option to customize eq, actually u can only have pvt, zerker, knight stats etc. U can’t get knight weapons and soldier armor etc. at pvp. That is bad, since some guilds run with zerker weapon, soldier armor, soldier / cavalier accesories for their wariors or something like this. The best option would be adding gems to amulets once again.
3. It needs to have 3-4 variants of amount of players – 5v5, 15v15, 20v20, I saw some 10 v 10 aswell. Why those? Those are current gvg numbers at WvW and PvP.
4. Next thing is food and oils, u should be able to use em too, they are buffs after all.
5. This map should be all about killing and stuff like this, not another capture the point.

azizul.8469:

the so called GvG what most WvW players understand is nothing more than a keyboard facesmashing extravaganza, blob v blob.

go play GW1 and you will understand the TRUE nature of GvG, and stop calling your version of deathmatch extravaganza a GvG, call it BvB .

The word you’re looking for is clusterkitten. That’s what GvG currently is in this game. I’ve watched and participated in GvG’s in this game and it is not even remotely comparable to what we had in GW1. I hope Stronghold will bring back PvP to its former glory.

Melanion.4892:

SobeSoul.6910:

PvP builds are not selfish. Warriors, eles, and eles all heal teams. And all can condi clear allies. Guardians too depending on spec. Mesmers and thieves provide boon ripping and other utility to teams. That leaves only two classes on the selfish side. Necros and rangers.

On the other hand there’s nothing really wrong with having a selfish oriented build in a team if the other four members are providing team oriented utility. It would be the same as the focus parties in gvg. Like Zoose playing fresh air scepter over d/d for DoD in tournies.

I know some gvg guilds have PU mesmers and SA thieves. Those builds are as selfish as anything in spvp.

Most gvg players who enter spvp have little understanding of strategies and end up losing games they shouldn’t. I know the gvg tags. There’s some gvgers who can do both well, as they’re plenty of spvpers who go into wvw and do fine.

You seem to have missed the point. What I’m saying is that the playstyle is more selfish, not the builds. Often the builds are very similar, actually (for mesmers and thieves, at least).

I’ll give you an example: thieves and mesmers that excel at pvp are generally not as good at larger group play because that’s how they’re used to playing. They make excellent roamers in wvw, for the most part, but IN GENERAL they don’t have as much awareness of the trains in a gvg or larger scale fight. When I say selfish, I mean that they use their escapes more selfishly. I have played with some thieves who are really good at 1v1s and roaming and pvp, but you put them in a 20v20 and it’s a whole different story.

There are some guilds that are really good at pvp who have tried to get really competitive at gvg, and they get pretty good, but then they hit a ceiling. Maybe it’s because of the mentalities of each player, maybe it’s the playstyle, but that’s just the case. They do not to as well in larger fights. Maybe it’s too minimal for most people to see the difference, but that’s just the way things are.

Another example would be 1v1 skill. To pvp, you don’t need to be able to 1v1 very well at all. Of course, you need to have a build that can survive long enough that your team can rotate to you or you need to know when to pull out of a fight. The same goes for gvgs (as we call them in the wvw community). You can be great at a 1v1 or in pvp, but you need to know how things operate in gvgs. Some of the “best” gvg guilds out there arguably don’t have the best players, but they don’t need them. I’ve heard that gvg players (I think it was even in a link posted here). You don’t need to be the best individually skilled players when it comes to larger fights, but you need builds and synergy to overcome that deficit.

I hope that’s clear… although I thought my last post was fairly clear and here we are…

Well, I just want to correct you on one of your points: the example you used of mesmers and thieves is quite biased in a sense. As the game was balanced for smaller battles, so too were these two classes specifically. Mesmer illusions melt in the mass AoE of large fights like WvW GvG, and thief itself can’t well survive being caught in 3-10 different AoE at once at all times. At best, these guys can learn to run around the back and attack enemies from behind. While possible, I’d like to point out: isn’t that unfair? It’s unfair that these classes aren’t given the option to play to their advantages while all others are. That’s a point where GvG TDM falls short and where Stronghold might cover.

Just my opinion, of course, but correct me where I’m wrong.

Dondagora.9645:

Melanion.4892:

SobeSoul.6910:

PvP builds are not selfish. Warriors, eles, and eles all heal teams. And all can condi clear allies. Guardians too depending on spec. Mesmers and thieves provide boon ripping and other utility to teams. That leaves only two classes on the selfish side. Necros and rangers.

On the other hand there’s nothing really wrong with having a selfish oriented build in a team if the other four members are providing team oriented utility. It would be the same as the focus parties in gvg. Like Zoose playing fresh air scepter over d/d for DoD in tournies.

I know some gvg guilds have PU mesmers and SA thieves. Those builds are as selfish as anything in spvp.

Most gvg players who enter spvp have little understanding of strategies and end up losing games they shouldn’t. I know the gvg tags. There’s some gvgers who can do both well, as they’re plenty of spvpers who go into wvw and do fine.

You seem to have missed the point. What I’m saying is that the playstyle is more selfish, not the builds. Often the builds are very similar, actually (for mesmers and thieves, at least).

I’ll give you an example: thieves and mesmers that excel at pvp are generally not as good at larger group play because that’s how they’re used to playing. They make excellent roamers in wvw, for the most part, but IN GENERAL they don’t have as much awareness of the trains in a gvg or larger scale fight. When I say selfish, I mean that they use their escapes more selfishly. I have played with some thieves who are really good at 1v1s and roaming and pvp, but you put them in a 20v20 and it’s a whole different story.

There are some guilds that are really good at pvp who have tried to get really competitive at gvg, and they get pretty good, but then they hit a ceiling. Maybe it’s because of the mentalities of each player, maybe it’s the playstyle, but that’s just the case. They do not to as well in larger fights. Maybe it’s too minimal for most people to see the difference, but that’s just the way things are.

Another example would be 1v1 skill. To pvp, you don’t need to be able to 1v1 very well at all. Of course, you need to have a build that can survive long enough that your team can rotate to you or you need to know when to pull out of a fight. The same goes for gvgs (as we call them in the wvw community). You can be great at a 1v1 or in pvp, but you need to know how things operate in gvgs. Some of the “best” gvg guilds out there arguably don’t have the best players, but they don’t need them. I’ve heard that gvg players (I think it was even in a link posted here). You don’t need to be the best individually skilled players when it comes to larger fights, but you need builds and synergy to overcome that deficit.

I hope that’s clear… although I thought my last post was fairly clear and here we are…

Well, I just want to correct you on one of your points: the example you used of mesmers and thieves is quite biased in a sense. As the game was balanced for smaller battles, so too were these two classes specifically. Mesmer illusions melt in the mass AoE of large fights like WvW GvG, and thief itself can’t well survive being caught in 3-10 different AoE at once at all times. At best, these guys can learn to run around the back and attack enemies from behind. While possible, I’d like to point out: isn’t that unfair? It’s unfair that these classes aren’t given the option to play to their advantages while all others are. That’s a point where GvG TDM falls short and where Stronghold might cover.

Just my opinion, of course, but correct me where I’m wrong.

I gvg. I’m a mesmer in those gvgs. It’s not at all unfair, or anything like that. You mention gank teams. That’s where mesmers and thieves do well, or in the tanky [PYRO] kind of mesmer/thieves. Most GvG teams currently have them. I don’t understand where you’re getting the idea that TDM GvG falls short by its use of mesmers and thieves. After the enemy thieves and mesmers die, the winning gank team can literally have a field day with the other team’s casters. It’s a trade-off, sure, and you’re wagering that your gank is going to have the upper hand and then assist in your killing of everyone else, but that’s just the tactic people have chosen. I’ve also seen some gvgs (like PYRO) that run tankier utility mesmers, and other guilds that forego gank altogether.

The individual skill required for the 15+ “GvGs” is pretty low. You just have to know what your buttons do, and it doesn’t actually take much for mechanics at all. What they do require is discipline (which I lack entirely) and communication/coordination. The biggest issue for me is how diluted individual contribution becomes as the number of participants increases, which is why after participating in several GvG’s, I lost interest and switched to sPvP and solo/small group roaming in wvw.

The thing that excites me about Stronghold is the potential variety of roles, builds and strategies that can be employed. With conquest, there are basically only two builds/roles. People who sit on points, and people who can move between points quickly to help down people who sit on points… and that’s it. So yeah, a whole new meta is pretty hype.

For the record, I’m not saying that people who participate in wvw gvg’s are unskilled as I’m sure there are lots of people with great mechanics/strategy, many of whom are probably better at GW2 than myself. But that doesn’t change the low skill floor or ceiling of those fights.

Melanion.4892:

SobeSoul.6910:

PvP builds are not selfish. Warriors, eles, and eles all heal teams. And all can condi clear allies. Guardians too depending on spec. Mesmers and thieves provide boon ripping and other utility to teams. That leaves only two classes on the selfish side. Necros and rangers.

On the other hand there’s nothing really wrong with having a selfish oriented build in a team if the other four members are providing team oriented utility. It would be the same as the focus parties in gvg. Like Zoose playing fresh air scepter over d/d for DoD in tournies.

I know some gvg guilds have PU mesmers and SA thieves. Those builds are as selfish as anything in spvp.

Most gvg players who enter spvp have little understanding of strategies and end up losing games they shouldn’t. I know the gvg tags. There’s some gvgers who can do both well, as they’re plenty of spvpers who go into wvw and do fine.

You seem to have missed the point. What I’m saying is that the playstyle is more selfish, not the builds. Often the builds are very similar, actually (for mesmers and thieves, at least).

I’ll give you an example: thieves and mesmers that excel at pvp are generally not as good at larger group play because that’s how they’re used to playing. They make excellent roamers in wvw, for the most part, but IN GENERAL they don’t have as much awareness of the trains in a gvg or larger scale fight. When I say selfish, I mean that they use their escapes more selfishly. I have played with some thieves who are really good at 1v1s and roaming and pvp, but you put them in a 20v20 and it’s a whole different story.

There are some guilds that are really good at pvp who have tried to get really competitive at gvg, and they get pretty good, but then they hit a ceiling. Maybe it’s because of the mentalities of each player, maybe it’s the playstyle, but that’s just the case. They do not to as well in larger fights. Maybe it’s too minimal for most people to see the difference, but that’s just the way things are.

Another example would be 1v1 skill. To pvp, you don’t need to be able to 1v1 very well at all. Of course, you need to have a build that can survive long enough that your team can rotate to you or you need to know when to pull out of a fight. The same goes for gvgs (as we call them in the wvw community). You can be great at a 1v1 or in pvp, but you need to know how things operate in gvgs. Some of the “best” gvg guilds out there arguably don’t have the best players, but they don’t need them. I’ve heard that gvg players (I think it was even in a link posted here). You don’t need to be the best individually skilled players when it comes to larger fights, but you need builds and synergy to overcome that deficit.

I hope that’s clear… although I thought my last post was fairly clear and here we are…

You could actually word what you say better. Read what you originally wrote before you get smarmy, Chief.

“selfish in their builds….”

Of course gvgers don’t need to be the best individual players in the game. You are still zerging in your 20v20s. The more players you add to a team the less skill it takes. It’s really that simple.

azizul.8469:

the so called GvG what most WvW players understand is nothing more than a keyboard facesmashing extravaganza, blob v blob.

go play GW1 and you will understand the TRUE nature of GvG, and stop calling your version of deathmatch extravaganza a GvG, call it BvB .

So 20 ppl is a blob now? Sometimes u have to fight GvB, but at OS u fight GvG with groups of 20 players so it isn’t blobing. Also keyboard facesmashing? Man try to do it during GvG, u will die in instant. It requiers a skill, skill to survive and follow lead of the leader, according to that u neeed discipline so some spvpers can’t do anything in MT sice they only know how to fight 1 v 1 not how to fight in situation of 1:3. But I’m probably typing ot a dude that didn’t play a serious GvG( as serious gvg i mean something against top 5 guilds).

Hey,
Former GW1 gvg´er and current GW2 WvW´er here.

Iv read this post and some of it i agree and some i dont. Ill just post some thoughts i find relevant.

1. GvG on GW1 was an awesome gameplay concept, very tactical and unforgiving. The learning curve was so high that new players rly struggled to do well. Although Gw2 has the potential for something like it, it will always be miles away from it due to gameplay dynamics, wich is neither good or bad, we would have to try it out.

2. Gw1 GvG was not paradise (although it was awesome!). The GvG community always had several issues and changes where always being demanded: nerf this, nerf that, buff this, remove VoD (Victory or Death) Vs bring it back…same old story. The beauty of it, imo, was that a balanced team, well played an commanded could outplay any other team build.

3. Original GvG had NPC´s: guards, Guild Lords (game ends when 1 of the GL´s die)…and it was fun, although VoD was always under hot debate. There was also a perma buff under dispute – the flag – and a player that was mostly dedicated to it – the flagrunner – that no1 wanted to play : P .

4. Guild Halls where a big part of the strategy coz each map had different dynamics and advantages that could better fit ur team startegy (ex: split or balanced).

5. GW2 GvG is…unfullfilling to say the least. If it was to be a deathmatch i believe it wouldnt be as exciting as the original. From what iv written so far, u can realise that theres was a lot of situations and strategies that u had to consider during a game and all very relevant: when to put flag on stand, when to spike target, when to split some members of ur team…being a DM, its just poor imo. I do understand that many may disagree as they have been creating this kind of game for the last 2 years coz ANET havent given us a proper 1.

6. If there is to be a GW2 GvG and if its similar to the original but with a 15 or 20 man guild prty, i bet its gonna be nothing like what you have seen so far. I imagine it would be fast paced, dynamic, and new meta will arise although i can also see some WvW or pvp builds being in good place to run, depending on strat. Organized grp Vs organized grp with strategical demands relating environment (ex: guarantee, buff, defend base, etc) is what made this game unique. In 2 weeks, u will have a very tactical and demanding gameplay genre. Thats what we, as players want, but i believe thats what ANET is trying to avoid coz of the huge and step learning curve to be a gvg´er.

6. GW1 was all about guild reputation: the tag was everything (there was no servers, ik) and in the gvg community you could be rewarded w golden, silver and bronze capes…ye, capes : P . Also, observe mode was a huge adittion, where u could learn and watch the best players from theyr own point of view. Priceless.

7. The bridge between WvW and GvG needs to be carefully thought. I want gvg, but i dont want WvW to be empty and im guessing a lot of players feel the same. Iv alrdy wrote in this forum how i believe this could work just look for it if ur interested.

8. Ppl will always complain.

Cheer,

I asked about why he described guild teams and the new PvP game type and why he didn’t say the words ‘GvG’? He replied with multiple points. He said the GvG community is actually two groups that do not understand each other very well. One is the GW1 GvG and the other is the modern WvW style GvG. The modern WvW style GvG is something that could be a gametype of its own (sounded like he thinks it should but…). However, ANet doesn’t currently have enough resources for the three gametypes it currently has. The PvE, PvP, and WvW teams just don’t have as much resources as they really want to make them into the ideal version that they are dreaming of (in the time they want it in). They do not want to pull people off the 3 core features to create a 4th which would cause neglect for all 4 core features. As to whether or not the new PvP game type is going to be like the classic 8v8 GvG… they are not decided. They have play tested everything from 5v5 to 10v10. Nothing is set in stone yet for how the standardized setup will be, and likely will not be decided until enough beta testers comment on it. (HoT beta testing coming, no word on invites)

From http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tsiox/pax_afterparty_lessons_learned/

Currently custom arenas can hold up to 10v10, so stronghold being 10v10 or 15v15 is not unlikely