Guild Wars 2

This idea is based on : All timezone have the same importance.

The issue

Your contribution has absolutely no effect on the match outcome if you don’t play in the right timezone or in wvw jargon : Coverage > All

You can look at this 90+ posts QQ thread for more information The Nightwatch Issue

The solution

Introduce a PPT cap of 255. Meaning that you can’t tick higher than 255.

You fight to lower your opponent score rather fighting to increase your score

Why is this a good solution?

Because all the timezones have the same importance. Your time is not more important than the time of another player. All good solutions must have this quality. Since the PPT cap is always applied this quality is preserved.

The PPT cap solve the Coverage > All issue by making it impossible for 1 server to gain a 10k lead in a few hours by ticking at 500+. This make all the timezone as important because if you want to win the match you have to perform well in all the timezone.

Why 255?

Your corner (220) + Stonemist Castle (35) = 255

I still don’t understand why this is a good solution

First, it’s not your fault. I know this can be something very hard to understand. Stay calm and reread the proposition.

Next, try to execute a fake matchup on paper to see the difference between a match currently and a match where there is a PPT cap. For example, here are the average PPT for 3 different time period in a day :
- 0h00 to 8h00 : { Green = 200, Blue = 300, Red = 195 }
- 8h00 to 16h00 : { Green = 200, Blue = 300, Red = 195 }
- 16h00 to 24h00 : { Green = 500, Blue = 150, Red = 45 }

If all else fail or you are too lazy to take a few minutes to think, just press +1 and write that it’s a good idea to bump the thread.

Interesting idea but I think its in everyones best interest not to open this can of worms again.

I will never support something that comes across as a “slap in the face” of gamers in other parts of the world that their time in the wvw game is less important and meaningless than the “majority” of North American gamers.

Coverage will still win because the team with the most WvWvW people active will slap the other servers’ PPT down to zero anyway.

The sad truth of it is…<drum roll> Anet messed up big time! Games these days have global communities, but Anet didn’t give two kittens about that when they made a game mode with 24/7 scoring but only offered NA/Euro servers(brilliant!). It is what it is.

All timezone have the same importance.

This is exactly what this idea promote.

Please, take the time to read before posting.

/ Sigh

No

And 15 Char

You need to take the time to read and think about the idea. Check the last section of the first post and run the fake match up on paper. The outcome is very different when you introduce a PPT cap.

gennyt.3428:

Coverage will still win because the team with the most WvWvW people active will slap the other servers’ PPT down to zero anyway.

The sad truth of it is…<drum roll> Anet messed up big time! Games these days have global communities, but Anet didn’t give two kittens about that when they made a game mode with 24/7 scoring but only offered NA/Euro servers(brilliant!). It is what it is.

It doesn’t solve the issue for two reasons:

1) Whether a server ticks 500+ or is capped at 255, it still amounts to a blowout match if we continue to cling to PPT as the basis of scoring. It’s just a slower blowout, is all. The outnumbered opponent who lacks numbers/coverage is still going to be karma trained by the zergs and is still going to lose the PPT race.

2) The “solution” offered addresses symptoms and not the cause. PPT itself needs to be eliminated as a scoring mechanic. PPT is not a measure of skill, it’s a measure of numbers/coverage. If that’s what is being measured, then the scoring system works as intended.

However, I would imagine when designing WvW it was not the developers’ intent to make a game mode where simply grossly outnumbering your opponent at some point in a 24 hour cycle is the measure of success. That WvW has devolved into that is a result of failing to anticipate the unintended consequences of the PPT system rather than being a conscious design decision.

With PPT, points are awarded over time in the absence of any interaction between players by sitting on empty towers and keeps that keep ticking points every 15 minutes. It’s not even an indirect metric of player interaction; most objectives captured that lead to a blowout score in a lopsided match are the result of PvDoor, not PvP. Imagine that; a semi-PvP game mode where the optimal way of scoring points is to avoid PvP!

To solve this, first eliminate PPT and the inaction of gaining points from empty objectives in which no player conflict is occurring. Then, reward players’ actions against other players in the game. With such a change, the score is a reflection of the actual conflicts between players:

Capture an empty objective? You gain territory, you gain a strategic advantage, you gain supply, you deny your opponent these same advantages, etc., but you will not be rewarded World Score points for doing so.

Capture an objective actively defended by real players? Congratulations, you earned all of the above advantages plus some World Score points. Your actions for engaging in PvP have been rewarded.

Run away every time the enemy zerg shows up? You may deny the enemy some points from the objective capture, but your server won’t be earning any points, either. You may even be penalized by losing points for allowing an enemy to capture an objective unopposed as a means of preventing defenders from gaming the system to their advantage.

Stand your ground and fight the zerg to the last? You may die, you may even lose the objective, but you will have gained World Score points for each successfully concluded “Defend the X” event at that objective. Your actions for engaging in PvP have been rewarded.

Nightwatch, coverage, zegs, blobs, etc. are merely symptoms of the problem. The true cause is the PPT scoring system. Any attempt to fix the cause by focusing on the symptoms will fail. Until the WvW scoring system is revamped to reward skill, strategy, and player interaction rather than PvDoor and absentee landlordism, these symptoms will continue unabated and no amount of tweaking the numbers will fix it.

@Kraag The intention was never to fix wvw as a whole but simply the scoring system.

WvW is not a blowout for most when you are in wvw, only the score board are blowout sometimes.

Currently we have a WvW system where the PPT is based on 24/7 coverage/score.
The options as I see them are;

Leave the system as is, OR

Make mathematical changes to the existing scoring system, OR

Change the entire system to a short duration multiple reset event. IE 12 2hr matches a day with changes made to upgrade times and costs. OR

Offer both the current PPT and the revised short match varients at the same time.

I am fairly sure that each of these “solutions” would see unhappy players leave the game. The challenge for ANET is to chosoe the path that provides the game and their shareholders with the best outcome.

Gudradain.3892:

You need to take the time to read and think about the idea. Check the last section of the first post and run the fake match up on paper. The outcome is very different when you introduce a PPT cap.

gennyt.3428:

Coverage will still win because the team with the most WvWvW people active will slap the other servers’ PPT down to zero anyway.

The sad truth of it is…<drum roll> Anet messed up big time! Games these days have global communities, but Anet didn’t give two kittens about that when they made a game mode with 24/7 scoring but only offered NA/Euro servers(brilliant!). It is what it is.

And what makes you think I did not read it? Because I disagreed? These changes will be cosmetic at best, servers will still be predetermined to win/lose for the same exact reasons as they are right now just with lower overall scores.

Gudradain.3892:

@Kraag The intention was never to fix wvw as a whole but simply the scoring system.

WvW is not a blowout for most when you are in wvw, only the score board are blowout sometimes.

And the system I’m proposing is a fix to the scoring system; with the added bonus of addressing the short-comings of PPT wherein having the advantage in coverage and numbers is more heavily rewarded than skill in a PvP game mode.

the coverage wars are fine for what they are. Look at the current FA / SBI / IoJ mathcup. FA is gonna win, they have coverage 24/7 compared to SBI and IoJ. SBI gets IoJ in NA primetime. IoJ beats up SBI in OCX / SEA. The match is really started to favor who has the better EU, and today it was SBI.

The coverage issue actually adds to the game, in my opinion. Just because I work hard in NA and we lose a lot of points overnight, doesn’t mean that the other servers over night work should be nerfed.

I play whenever I get a chance…sometimes mornings, sometimes primetime, sometimes late at night, etc. I wouldn’t really want to play in the off hours if it was nerfed (just like I don’t participate in the useless EoTM crap).

Anyone remembered one of the suggestion Devon Carver made in the last CDI?

Splitting the week in 21 matches of 8h and the winner is the one that won the most matches.

It took time, but people actually realized that doing this would actually improve the coverage imbalance (scoring wise). PPT cap will do the same thing but it has a few advantages as well as disadvantages compare to Devon idea.

Take the time to think about it

@Andrew All timezone are equal. This idea is based on that.

We are not nerfing the work of any timezone.

All timezone are equal and have the same importance.

I’m playing only during nightime and I disagree your POV.

/discuss

@purecontact How does it affect you? Are you on a server usually winning in your timezone or usually losing in your timezone?

You said you disagree with my POV… My point of view is that all timezone are equal. If there is a server with a very strong NA time force, then this server will be PPT cap too during this time. Is that what you disagree with, that all timezone should be equal?

this doesn’t solve anything.

all it does is limit primetime & off peak time point acquisition while making it possible for some lazies to go to sleep early because they have a virtual protection bubble on their points.

this is like going to vietnam and asking / expecting the enemy to not attack at night because you need your beauty sleep (that’s exactly why they would and should attack you, kill you while you sleep)

or like in the olden days where an invading armies were given time to assemble their troops, set up camps and feed them before a major campaign because it was considered dishonorable to attack them while they were weak from a long voyage at sea (hahahahahaha morons, that’s exactly when you’re suppose to kill them they came to invade you lol)

it’s a 24/7/365 warfront !

I know I’m part of a big server and all that but, I tell you even if I was part of some other lower tier server it would not change anything in my way of thinking.

or….

Are you seriously telling me that if you discovered a serious weakness in your enemy’s forces you wouldn’t attack them there ?

if your answer is NO.

WTH are you doing in WvW ?
mercy is for the weak and feeble during war times !

if you can’t keep up or hold your own I will sacrifice you as bait to the enemy so I can outflank them and kill them all, and all it did cost me is YOU !

war is unfair, so is WvW just as it should be, working as intended.

of course exploits, hacks and the likes is a different matter altogether.
I’m looking at you lord bannering, speed hacks, terrain hacks and other nasty things going on in WvW.

also of note so much complaining yet BG’s TS had been down for who knows how long and well into the beginning of season 2 due to persistent ddos yet I never saw anyone from BG complaining about it.

Kudos for that, BG takes it like a man or woman and simply learns, adapts, responds and then moves to obliterate the enemy.

If you’re comparing a game, something that is supposed to be entertainment to actual real world war then perhaps you should step back and kitten some stuff.

I am with Kraag on this topic. The problem is the passive acquisition of points. As long as you gain points for doing nothing, then it’s no interactive game, no “war”.

But, i would make one correction:

First, score should be based on cap/defence. You start from like 5 points per cap (even empty keeps) and the capping are increased for every tier reinforced the structure is. Because, since you will get points for defence, like 3 for example (you can pull many more successfull defences than attacks when a tower is upgraded and sieged), you need the cap to matter. But, you won’t get any points for holding it.

So, late night can be all about capping/defending but you won’t get points for holding things that noone attacks and there will be a new level of strategy. What to upgrade, what to keep and what not. Attacking a tier 3 keep mindlessly will cost you points.

All in all, Anet really needs to get rid of the passiveness of earning points in WvW and move to some scoring system which can measure successfull caps, successfull defences, maybe a ranking system of the most valuable structure or player (stomps for example) and so on, to spice things up.

I am with Kraag on this topic. The problem is the passive acquisition of points. As long as you gain points for doing nothing, then it’s no interactive game, no “war”.

But, i would make two corrections:

Score should be based on cap/defence. You start from like 5 points per cap (even empty keeps) and the capping points are increased for every tier reinforced the structure is. Because, since you will get points for defence, like 3 for example (you can pull many more successfull defences than attacks when a tower is upgraded and sieged), you need the cap to matter. But, you won’t get any points for holding it.

So, late night can be all about capping/defending but you won’t get points for holding things that noone attacks and there will be a new level of strategy. What to upgrade, what to keep and what not. Attacking a tier 3 keep mindlessly will cost you points.

All in all, Anet really needs to get rid of the passiveness of earning points in WvW and move to some scoring system which can measure successfull caps, successfull defences, maybe a ranking system of the most valuable structure or player (stomps for example) and so on, to spice things up.

The foundation of WvW is based on unbalancing and unfairness : big dog eats small dog. There is no pretense of evolving it into an e-sport.

Just like in real life, a certain developed country has access to drones that carries out assasinations in third world countries’ enemy combatants hiding in caves. Technological unfairness ! War is chaotic and unfair.

Rather than waste your brain cells coming up with ideas to make it fair, just switch to sPvP or player organised GvG tournaments.

Solved lol.

The only real solution would be to make all servers international with no distinction between NA and EU, but then that solution has problems too with latency.

Sol.8341:

The foundation of WvW is based on unbalancing and unfairness : big dog eats small dog. There is no pretense of evolving it into an e-sport.

Just like in real life, a certain developed country has access to drones that carries out assasinations in third world countries’ enemy combatants hiding in caves. Technological unfairness ! War is chaotic and unfair.

Rather than waste your brain cells coming up with ideas to make it fair, just switch to sPvP or player organised GvG tournaments.

Ok we get it you are playing in a winning server.

Capping PPT is nice on paper but makes it pointless in top tiers to attack at all, since it takes at least 2 hours to start wearing down a fully upgraded, supplied and sieged up keep. Some fights for keeps go on for as long as 6 hours, with commander changes in between. Why would we make those pushes if PPT is capped anyway. Just sit in your keep behind 500 superior ACs

The only solution to this problem is to have a day and night schedule.

From 06:00 – 00:00 are battles and scoring points. Golem rush as much as you want.
From 00:00 – 06:00 legendary nightwatch will defend all keeps and towers in YOUR corner and YOUR borderlands. So players at night will be able to take back everything they lost, but wont be able to take entire maps.

All this ppt gazing misses the point entirely. If you can’t get a structure past t1 and are getting mowed down by 3:1 numerical odds all the time, are you suddenly going to have more fun just because the score is closer?

The problem with unbalance is that it’s not fun to play in. Changing the rate at which the number at the top of the screen goes up won’t make an unbalanced match more fun.

All timezones are not equal.

I don’t mean to say NA timezones are better than EU/SEA timezones. I mean to say that, if you play on a server for a specific region and are not from that region, your timezone/peak should not be given the same treatment as the “main” timezone. I wouldn’t join a EU server and expect everything to revolve around EST. It’s silly to act like UTC+12 is exactly equal to UTC-8 when the server and the majority of the community sits in UTC-8 or UTC-5. All that does is ignore the reality of a lack of adequate coverage for many servers. I mean, the thread title is proof enough. If we went by the logic of “every timezone is equal”, then there would be no “nightwatch”.

The fact of the matter is: Players tend to join servers that have people from their same region. A handful of servers control the majority of off-hour coverage, either naturally or through recruiting. These servers are the ones who consistently top the WvW fights due to taking advantage of the lack of players in off-hours as well as making the second and third place servers feel like upgrading their garrisons and keeps is pointless since they’ll be captured as soon as everyone goes to bed.

This is a real problem for WvW, and I feel like any adequate solution would have to touch on the disparity between off- and peak-hours. We can’t just ignore it, because we end up with convoluted solutions that barely touch on the main problem and introduce more.

A quick and dirty solution would be to halve the number of points you get during certain hours. Maybe make it impossible to cap keeps and/or garrisons during off-hours. That would mean you could cap supply camps, so the enemy team would wake up with no supply, but they wouldn’t wake up with their entire map taken from them. A more complex one would be to scale points based on the number of enemy players in WvW. You shouldn’t get the same amount of points when you walk into a keep at 6am that you get when you take it and hold it during a huge fight.

In fact, I would even go as far to say that the total number of points you’d get for holding enemy objectives during off-hours should be the same as the number of points you’d get for holding it for a single hour during prime time.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

PPT is not a measure of skill

Q_Q

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

it’s a measure of numbers/coverage. If that’s what is being measured, then the scoring system works as intended.

DING DING DING, right answer!

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

However, I would imagine

…wrongly…

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

wasted calories

PPT+Glicko = Servers are matched against their most similar opponents as often as possible.

This horse has died a few thousand times, now.

Virtute.8251:

PPT+Glicko = Servers are matched against their most similar opponents as often as possible.

This horse has died a few thousand times, now.

Yeah… unless ANet gives free transfers just before they start a WvW season and lock the leagues.

But they possibly couldn’t do anything that stupid, now could they?

This must be an undead horse… it keeps coming back to life Trying to suppress this issue won’t make it go away. It should be fixed and we have good discussions to give ANET ideas on how.

PPT rewards coverage more than skill. Obvious? yes. Any form of PPT will reward coverage more than skill.

I personally like the ideas that replace PPT with player kill and single shot capture points that can reward skill rather than coverage. This one could work:

• Player kills are worth 10 points + 5 for each level of bloodlust earned.
• Capturing an objective is worth 250 points for a camp, 300 for a tower, 500 for a keep and 1000 for stonemist.
• Each upgrade completed at an objective rewards points equivalent to that objective’s capture worth.
• Each upgrade to an objective increases the points rewarded for a player kill within the objective for the side who owns the objective by 1 (2 for keeps). A fully upgraded keep could reward 34 points per PK to the defending side.
• new PK score booster in the black lion chests and gemstore +50% pk reward for successful stomps. New Guild buff that adds +5 points per PK for defensive PKs at the claimed objective.

This whole issue is like a small child complaining that they don’t get to stay up as late to watch TV as another friend does.

Just acknowledge the fact that playing for PPT during NA prime in the higher tiers is just a transition period between your EU and OCX coverage. Then go out and kill things and have fun papering a keep or something.

Or just transfer to EU and be the “nightwatch” there.

The problem is that the another friend’s interaction with the TV show matters more than the small child’s interaction with it simply because the other side interacting with the TV show has coverage while the small child plays but not when the another friend plays. That is why the child complains. He would be content if his actions during the time he was interacting with the tv show actually had an impact on it rather than just maintaining it for his friend.

The child want’s to be the server’s hero, not just its guardian.

My server’s heroes right now are the OCX crew because they are the ones that bring home the PPT. The PPT fought for by the NA crew is just there to balance the servers for the OCX crew. This contribution goes unnoticed in the score while the contribution of the OCX crew shows up more in the score.

The fact that the child can’t play at certain times has a direct impact on how good the TV show is for him vs how it is for others.

I don’t know if this point has been brought up but… If ppt had more to do with killing people then time zones with lopsided population wouldn’t effect outcomes as much. That would also encourage ppl to transfer to servers where they could kill ppl to have a more prominent effect on helping their server…. I know that’s probably to much to ask from anet but it would work- 1point per kill- hold a tower 5 points per kill on that map- would encourage defense and open field combat… I think anyways

Fine, its a bad example. But it is still a 24/7 game and that measn some people time will have a greater impact on the score. If you want to have a greater impact, either stay up later or move to an EU server. Thousands of players are ok with just playing WvW during NA prime. So let them take your spot.

Not everyone can be a hero or special. Some people are just the foot soldiers holding the line.

Gudradain.3892:

Anyone remembered one of the suggestion Devon Carver made in the last CDI?

Splitting the week in 21 matches of 8h and the winner is the one that won the most matches.

It took time, but people actually realized that doing this would actually improve the coverage imbalance (scoring wise). PPT cap will do the same thing but it has a few advantages as well as disadvantages compare to Devon idea.

Take the time to think about it

Wow did Devon really say that? I’ma have to go find it. This is one of the suggestions I think is the best option to satisfy (or rather not kitten off) the most people.

But it looks like Anets solution actually might be the Megaserver. Most people don’t seem to like that idea though.

Latinkuro.9420:

war is unfair, so is WvW just as it should be, working as intended.

This is not war, this is a video game. People play video games to have fun, and unfair fights are not fun. It appears that the boundaries between the video game world and the real world are blurred for you.

We all know that nothing is going to change because Anet doesnt care about WvW. Period.

Waffler.1257:

Latinkuro.9420:

war is unfair, so is WvW just as it should be, working as intended.

This is not war, this is a video game. People play video games to have fun, and unfair fights are not fun. It appears that the boundaries between the video game world and the real world are blurred for you.

LOL and I thought I was the only one who found this to be strange.

Let’s talk a bit about blowout.

Some people do not like the PPT cap solution because they feel it does not fix the main problem with wvw which is population and coverage disparity, and only adjust the scoring system.

The question we should all ask ourselves is : Is wvw really a blowout most of the time?

Do I ever feel like it’s impossible to do anything when I’m in wvw? No
Do I ever feel like it’s impossible to even get out of spawn by one of the 3 exit? No
Do I ever feel like it’s impossible to recap our camps/tower/keep in wvw? No
Do I ever feel like it’s impossible to wipe the enemy zerg? No
Do I ever feel like it’s impossible to upgrade/defend our structure in wvw? No
Do I ever feel like I’m playing in a blowout when I play? No

But I sure feel like I’m playing in a blowout when I look at the score. There is absolutely no way to win for a server that do not have coverage in offpeak hour with the current scoring system.

WvW is not broken, only the scoring system is. Hence the simple solution is PPT cap.

You encouraged me to ponder coverage when I should have been working but I didn’t want to highjack your thread, so created a new topic. Let me know your thoughts. I ran with your premise of how do you allow a side to recover some if disadvantaged from coverage.