Guild Wars 2

Jesus, Fin, enough about the lords. Everyone here disagrees with you. Small groups can kill lords super fast. If your experience is different, then you need to look at your groups compositions and builds.

If you’re standing around staring at another group across a choke for 10 minutes and you find that boring, then do something about it. Change up your gameplay. Get some good mesmers. Get better frontline with different group comp and builds. Drop some offensive siege. I don’t know what you need to do, but change things up. If you’re staring at each other for 10 minutes across a choke, then you’ve already lost. Again, stop blaming the map. Change your tactics.

Naithe.4271:

BrickFurious.7169:

Naithe.4271:

Appreciate all the comments, a few things:

- Never said the lord was hard, I’m saying it’s not FAST with a few people and it should be. The mechanics can be unforgiving, but for small groups speed is everything (before you get caught).

- I agree 100% that yaks are easy to snipe, guess what, no one is sniping them because, well see above on small groups. People aren’t showing up.,

In my experience, I can kill a keep lord with a group of 5 people 3x faster than with a zerg. The scaling is working, the lords are super easy with a small group and take much longer with a big one. It takes longer than pre-HoT, but pre-HoT lords died so quickly they didn’t even serve a purpose. Making them take longer to kill was an intention design change that IMO was a good one (now it’s actually worth trying to go defend an objective after the inner gate is down, before it was pointless because there was no way you would ever get there in time). Try telling your guildies to spec in the guard killer line, it helps a lot (+20% damage to guards and lords).

Fair enough, I still think it should be faster for small groups only. For the guard killer line, mate we’ve been WvWvW for 3 years, we have everything maxed.

You’d be surprised how many vets failed to pick up that line after the trait reset because they thought it was “worthless” without guard stacks.

BrickFurious.7169:

Naithe.4271:

BrickFurious.7169:

Naithe.4271:

Appreciate all the comments, a few things:

- Never said the lord was hard, I’m saying it’s not FAST with a few people and it should be. The mechanics can be unforgiving, but for small groups speed is everything (before you get caught).

- I agree 100% that yaks are easy to snipe, guess what, no one is sniping them because, well see above on small groups. People aren’t showing up.,

In my experience, I can kill a keep lord with a group of 5 people 3x faster than with a zerg. The scaling is working, the lords are super easy with a small group and take much longer with a big one. It takes longer than pre-HoT, but pre-HoT lords died so quickly they didn’t even serve a purpose. Making them take longer to kill was an intention design change that IMO was a good one (now it’s actually worth trying to go defend an objective after the inner gate is down, before it was pointless because there was no way you would ever get there in time). Try telling your guildies to spec in the guard killer line, it helps a lot (+20% damage to guards and lords).

Fair enough, I still think it should be faster for small groups only. For the guard killer line, mate we’ve been WvWvW for 3 years, we have everything maxed.

You’d be surprised how many vets failed to pick up that line after the trait reset because they thought it was “worthless” without guard stacks.

Fair enough, maybe time to remind my team

Sviel.7493:

What northern route are you talking about, though? I mentioned the staircase that leads down to firekeep (which I’ll have to doublecheck in terms of tower visibility) but if you use the stairs up north then you have to exit the canyon next to one of two sentries.

From the earth shrine point of view there is actually 4 routes west – one south path that lead past the fire shrine (no sentry will spot you), a second south path that lead you to bay north just south of the sentry (he wont spot you), 1 middle path that leads out to the sentry and one north path that lead to the other sentry. The first sentry north is so utterly pointless I dont even know what he’s doing there.

There is also a second northern route across the desert that lead more toward the central area (not the stairs, the ramp). If you backtrack a little you can go into western bay, again without being seen by sentries.

And of course you can go down the stairs just north of SW camp and reach entire bay undetected.

- Keep It Simple Stupid -

Should be plastered on an Anet wall somewhere.

Xenesis.6389:

- Keep It Simple Stupid -

Should be plastered on an Anet wall somewhere.

I thought it was Keep It Stupid Sheeple?

Wish I could log on atm :<

There’s a sentry between the earth shrine and firekeep that I think would catch people. I’ll have to run around there to see how big his tagging circle is and if it can be avoided. Since I’m always defending my home BL I’m not as familiar with their detection radius as I don’t really have to sneak past them.

When you say north sentry I assumed you’re talking about the NE one? He -is- really out there…could definitely be positioned better imo.

Sviel.7493:

Wish I could log on atm :<

There’s a sentry between the earth shrine and firekeep that I think would catch people. I’ll have to run around there to see how big his tagging circle is and if it can be avoided. Since I’m always defending my home BL I’m not as familiar with their detection radius as I don’t really have to sneak past them.

When you say north sentry I assumed you’re talking about the NE one? He -is- really out there…could definitely be positioned better imo.

Fine, lets just name them sentry 1 (first you meet north of bay) and sentry 2 (second, toward the tower).

Sentry 1 is utterly pointless. No, he wont see you unless you want him too. Someone attacking bay north wont be seen by sentry 1. You can take the camp as well without him seeing you.

Bah, now this entire discussion is about sentries.

Xenesis.6389:

- Keep It Simple Stupid -

Should be plastered on an Anet wall somewhere.

I think at one point it was, but the “simple” faded off or something…

Sviel.7493:

morrolan.9608:

They aren’t strategically placed at all, the separation that has been put between them has completely removed the strategic ‘flow’ of the map. Look at EBG and how the towers ‘protect’ the keeps, thats strategic placement.

Strategy is not limited to being able to treb other objectives from their position.

No, this is true, but on the old Alpine maps if you wanted to attack garrison from North you were pretty much tied to taking either NET or NWT otherwise you got cross-fired from both garrison and tower. The Southern towers could more easily be bypassed, but they provided other, strategic uses.

Towers on the desert BLs might as well not be there for any strategic value. They are purely for PPT, and that’s a shame.

A paid expansion should not only improve upon a game, but revitalise it too. Regardless of whether you personally enjoy or hate WvW after the xpac you cannot deny that the state of WvW is not better than they used to be, and in fact many people would like for the mode to be rolled back to the old stale version.

We can all speculate as to why this is and what will happen in the future but I can’t help but feel that if Anet had of done a better job, we wouldn’t be having these conversations.

Dawdler.8521:

Fine, lets just name them sentry 1 (first you meet north of bay) and sentry 2 (second, toward the tower).

Sentry 1 is utterly pointless. No, he wont see you unless you want him too. Someone attacking bay north wont be seen by sentry 1. You can take the camp as well without him seeing you.

Bah, now this entire discussion is about sentries.

Ah, right, forgot about the side path in the canyon that cuts into firekeep.

Actually, given that supply accumulates in towers now unused by the current upgrade process, all towers serve as a potential source for more supply. The NE tower serves as a replenishment source and as a safe zone to retreat into or foray out of when considering trying for garrison or the Air Keep as a small ops team. If the NE Camp has been flipped and is on RI, supply for the 3 supply runs needed to build 4 catas is available there.

(Yep, 3 runs for 4 catas, no joke. Let’s not even talk about trebs.)

I Honestly do not think there is a viable way to fix the Desert maps.. They need to be completely redone, it would be easier to go back to alpine. They are too big and promote avoiding fights rather than bring players together. The primary focus of a map should be to encourage more time in the action than running around looking for it, and these are the opposite of that. Non direct routes, bouncy multi level gimmicks, PVE infested environmental disaster does everything it can to prevent PvP than encouraging it. When players only have so much time to play, they want to spend it actually fighting players not wasting their time trying to find anyone to fight. New DBLis just a waste of time rather than keeping players in action.

Hmm… I wonder what would happen with one simple change… what if ANet enabled PPT on EotM? How would the fights be over there?

Otay Ranchero.5487:

Hmm… I wonder what would happen with one simple change… what if ANet enabled PPT on EotM? How would the fights be over there?

Some already fight in EoTm, they usually just hate doing so because it is a terrible map for GvG. Most just hate the EoTM map for fighting.

Smaller flat maps without PVE or environmental factors are what are preferred for GvG. Think Courtyard for large scale…

Excellent post Naithe. If ArenaNet actually listened to players / commanders like you then we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Tspatula.9086:

Straegen.2938:

I agree. My only addition would be that changing the map is probably more labor intensive than going back to Alpine. Alpine wasn’t a favorite of mine but it is a superior WvW map even if the Deserted map is changed.

Wow, I think I agree with this… back to the same old map. Now we have 2 huge very labor intensive WvW assets that are not going to be used in WvW… Personally, I think Anet is lost. Apparently Mike O’Brien has his fingers in EVERYTHING and no one is given enough responsibility to take concepts from idea to finished product without O’Brien and upper management constantly changing their minds, the goals, and the concept. When you start to realize this, you realize that HoT is a hot mess. The new map is just a complete mishmash of ideas completely unplaytested… Like turtlebanner, seriously? It’s not out there much yet because Grind Halls, but it’s coming and it’s absurdly OP. Or how bout that Air keep boss with the air jets and the red donut and and and… So many gimmicks, so little focus on actual gameplay… Honestly, there is no need to wait for the “Major WvW overhaul” just look at EtoM and how closely it resembles the new BL in terms of schlock and gimmickry, then look at the mess that is the HoT PvE content, Grinding, time gates, missing critical items or broken maps (ie Tedious Depths), even their precious Esports… This game has completely lost any focus it once had.

And now we realize why HoT killed WvW… Mike O’Brien.

Although none of us truly know if Mr O’Brien is literally the destroyer of everything WvW, it doesn’t matter, he is the leader and therefore will always responsible for the massive failure that is HoT and WvW.

If Mr O’Brien is truly as culpable as it seems then perhaps he should retire. We don’t need any more clueless devs lost in yesterday ruining perfectly good games.

If nothing else, maybe he should actually play the game he is so set on killing.

who cares anymore ppl have been trying to suggest things for ages yet anet is intent on whatever they see at the end of the tunnel.
gaem ded.

I’m just going to say i agree with a good chunk of what Fin is saying and I just want to leave this here and ask what was Arena Net thinking when they added this to WvW:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Centaur_Banner

I agree but at this point since WvW EB queues on tier one and tier two are about 20-40 in prime time NA when I play the game is pretty much dead for me. I used to play the boarder lands almost exclusively now I don’t because there is no one there and nothing one person or a small team can accomplish there. Im not sure what the powers that be at Anet were thinking unless they were trying to kill WvW if so then Bravo you have accomplished your goals!

MaLeVoLenT.8129:

I’m just going to say i agree with a good chunk of what Fin is saying and I just want to leave this here and ask what was Arena Net thinking when they added this to WvW:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Centaur_Banner

Turtle banner is just as bad. It seems pretty obvious that the design team focused on style rather than function. And it’s overly focused on PPT as well, with NO REAL TESTING on any of it. Then we get all of our guild upgrades taken away, if that wasn’t a big middle finger to any WvW guild I don’t know what is. Then we get Grind Halls and have to pay to be competitive, cuz if you ain’t got yer Centaur banner….

10/10 post, 100% accurate and truly captures how I feel about WvW now.

Tspatula.9086:

MaLeVoLenT.8129:

I’m just going to say i agree with a good chunk of what Fin is saying and I just want to leave this here and ask what was Arena Net thinking when they added this to WvW:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Centaur_Banner

Turtle banner is just as bad. It seems pretty obvious that the design team focused on style rather than function. And it’s overly focused on PPT as well, with NO REAL TESTING on any of it. Then we get all of our guild upgrades taken away, if that wasn’t a big middle finger to any WvW guild I don’t know what is. Then we get Grind Halls and have to pay to be competitive, cuz if you ain’t got yer Centaur banner….

Lol ~15 of us were fighting a 50 man PvDoor blob with a guild core that had Turtle banner. “Oh am I going to go flying off this cliff suddenly? Oh ok then”. It felt like an April Fools prank. Good luck to small/medium guilds getting that stuff too.

When will A-net realize that opposing players ARE the content for WvW? They need to get rid of all the PvE elements (if we wanted those, we’d a play PvE) and fix the reward system so that players are motivated to come back.

Secondly, complex maze-like terrain is simply annoying without enhancing fights or strategy options. In fact, it narrows both to the point of choking everywhere (pun intended).

Most WvW players I know want:
*polulation balance
*open-field squad/guild group battles
*Large-group assault and viable player-manned defense of large structures
*Small-group havoc opportunities to take camps, sentries and small structures
*Siege and counter-siege that matter
*Few to no PvE elements
*Rewards that are competitive with those from PvP, PvE and fractals

It’s not that hard to understand what the players want.

Thank you for this post

I really agree with a lot of things you wrote down. I also really hope that ArenaNet will fix it the best way possible (a tricky one for sure).

The map itself is beautiful, but it lacks a reason to play. Towers are not strategically placed, T3 keeps still won’t have a waypoint (worth defending), there are no real places to have good bigger fights, way to many chokes and elevation levels and not enough mobility throughout the map. As for the Oasis event, it’s to OP and laggy. I like the idea behind it, but it could be worked out a lot better (damage one gate, give some reward and done. It can be a nice spot to have small scale battles, but have smaller groups benefit from it as well).

The changes with the guild upgrades are just to much. It costs a lot of gold (most WvW players don’t have) to get the basics. Especially for smaller guilds it will be difficult to benefit from them because it’s really hard to get the buffs (even for small guilds that had that +5).

One thing I really think ArenaNet hasn’t put enough attention to is rewards. I never played WvW for the rewards because winning (or losing) fights have been the rewards for me for years. But with improving the rewards I think a lot of non-WvW players (new or veteran) could get a reason to start playing and falling in love with the game mode. I really wouldn’t like to see it turn into a karmatrain/rewards mode, that would be awful, but there are other ways. Gold/Silver/Bronze rewards per matchup, Reward Tracks, extra chests per cap/xxx kills, and rankup chests that actually matter. Introduce WvWv only weapon/armour skins, improve the rewards so everyone can achieve most of the GW2 stuff within WvW (legendaries requiring more f.I., sure, but everything available in PvP also available in WvW).

Rewards could even help population balance, give people a reason to go to low bronze (new and vets). This would need a solid player base of course, but it’s not impossible.

So many things that could work for sure

Daddar.5971:

When will A-net realize that opposing players ARE the content for WvW? They need to get rid of all the PvE elements (if we wanted those, we’d a play PvE) and fix the reward system so that players are motivated to come back.

they had 3 years of no content updates basically because of this. remember how fun those 3-way bay/hills fights were? there is nothing close to them. they need to go beg whoever made that map with truckloads of money, because they were on point.

i don’t know why they aren’t adding them back. if they don’t fix this before stuff like crowfall or camelot unchained they’re gonna lose a lot of players, cause even the great combat of gw2 can’t fix what they’ve done.

Daddar.5971:

When will A-net realize that opposing players ARE the content for WvW? They need to get rid of all the PvE elements (if we wanted those, we’d a play PvE) and fix the reward system so that players are motivated to come back.

they had 3 years of no content updates basically because of this. remember how fun those 3-way bay/hills fights were? there is nothing close to them. they need to go beg whoever made that map with truckloads of money, because they were on point.

i don’t know why they aren’t adding them back. if they don’t fix this before stuff like crowfall or camelot unchained they’re gonna lose a lot of players, cause even the great combat of gw2 can’t fix what they’ve done.