Guild Wars 2

This is intended (perhaps a futile effort) to explain to some folks what a thief does in WvW. There are a plethora of posts from the coutless victims of thief roamers who kitten and moan that they are trolls, that they have no application to the group, and that they are otherwise useless in WvW.

If you are one of these people, ask yourself a few questions:
1.) Where were you at the time of your death by thief?
2.) What was your objective at said time?
3.) Most importantly (perhaps should be question 1) what is your utility in WvW?

The reason I pose these questions is because people seem to think that thieves are useless and serve no purpose. Clearly, you do not understand the mechanics of WvW.

If the answer to question number 1 is “not with the zerg,” then you should expect to be targeted. I’m sorry, but when you are with the zerg, you are practically untouchable to theives. Anyone who claims they were plucked from the ranks by a thief, or that they did the plucking is either a straight-up liar or is embellishing the details. Now…when you aren’t benefitting from the protection of the zerg…you are swimming with sharks. This game is simulated warfare, and gurilla tactics are a part of that. That means harrassing stragglers, supply lines, and the zerg itself (see supply traps).

This brings us to question number 2. If you aren’t with the zerg when you get killed by a thief (and we can assume as much based on the untouchability mentioned above), then we can deduce that you are running to get to the zerg, esupplying at a camp, or you yourself are scouting and roaming. If you get killed by a thief whilst performing any of these tasks, then the thief assisted his servers war effort by imparing yours.

Question three is a little more abstract but is designed to view questions 1 and 2 more hollistically. It is designed to get your interpretation of WvW and where each class fits in. Thieves are not made for zerg-mechanics. They are built for knife-work. Hitting yaks, placing traps to hinder the zerg, disrupting “trickling-in” of reinforcements, and countering enemy scouts (this one’s important because no matter what server you are from, you have firendly thieves doing all these things).

In short, I posted this because although they may be annoying, thieves serve a tactical purpose in WvW. They use guerrilla tactics and as such are hard to beat with brute force. Evaluate your place in WvW. If it is serving some greater purpose with the main groups…then pray stay with the group. Roaming can be performed by any class, but unlike every other class, a thief has no other place in WvW, so don’t complain when they do the only job truly suited for them.

Blah blah blah. We all know every class can be useless if traited and played properly. If people think they can’t, let them be idiots.

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I felt this appropriate for a thief thread.

Mike.7320:

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I felt this appropriate for a thief thread.

I play S/D so this strategy doesn’t work for me.

Plainview.7029:

Mike.7320:

2222222222222222

I felt this appropriate for a thief thread.

I play S/D so this strategy doesn’t work for me.

You get my point non the less. All I was trying to get across, the cheese of this class is silly.

I was just walking around in the borderlands trying to get map completion! Then a thief from no where blinded me and stab me repeatedly and bleed me dry!!

I didnt even go to territories controlled by da enemy, I was just walking around portion of the map that my server controls!

So no, killing me does not assist your server because me being there actually take up a spot that may no longer be available to someone else who really wants to WvW! You are actually doing ma server a service cos I ran back to LA sulking and heartbroken.

=P

ParnAshwind.4823:

I was just walking around in the borderlands trying to get map completion! Then a thief from no where blinded me and stab me repeatedly and bleed me dry!!

I didnt even go to territories controlled by da enemy, I was just walking around portion of the map that my server controls!

So no, killing me does not assist your server because me being there actually take up a spot that may no longer be available to someone else who really wants to WvW! You are actually doing ma server a service cos I ran back to LA sulking and heartbroken.

=P

Ahahaha that thief did his job well.. Lets face it, thief is the easiest, most gimmicky, cheesiest class this game has to offer for wvw.

If a thief cant win a fight (determined in first 10seconds of contact) they stealth and run away.

If a thief is going to win, also decided in the first 10seconds. You can try to justify thieves all you want but it comes down to the simple fact of being able to break combat easily, stealthing at near 50% hp and popping back at full. Lets not forget the damage either.

2222222 STEALTH

I think the fact of the matter is, they just become what everyone thinks they are: annoying. They might be able to go around and just 1-shot people, but they are still annoying and i just don’t think people will forget that.

I should thank all of you for living up to my expecations. I never really expected a serious discussion. Part of me wanted to see how quick it would turn into a thief-hate thread. Looks like less than a half hour.

A point of curiousity though. When you are running with a spec group or zerg, aside from commanding the zerg, what actual skill does your role require? That’s sort of the discussion I was trying to generate. When you have 30-40 people with you all doing the same thing, you individual talent level is essentially non-detectable. If you aren’t with your crew and get killed, then you got killed. Deal with it. OR you can work on your individual skills and try to counter it. It is possible.

It’s not important though. Continue with your complaints. I recommend you get a few bunker guardians in here to lambast the boon stripping. I haven’t heard one of those in a while.

1v1 skilled thief vs skilled warrior. By class design alone thief well win every time. You want to dispute my point? show me video proof.

Its not always about skill, sometimes its simply just how OP one class is.

Mike.7320:

ParnAshwind.4823:

I was just walking around in the borderlands trying to get map completion! Then a thief from no where blinded me and stab me repeatedly and bleed me dry!!

I didnt even go to territories controlled by da enemy, I was just walking around portion of the map that my server controls!

So no, killing me does not assist your server because me being there actually take up a spot that may no longer be available to someone else who really wants to WvW! You are actually doing ma server a service cos I ran back to LA sulking and heartbroken.

=P

Ahahaha that thief did his job well.. Lets face it, thief is the easiest, most gimmicky, cheesiest class this game has to offer for wvw.

If a thief cant win a fight (determined in first 10seconds of contact) they stealth and run away.

If a thief is going to win, also decided in the first 10seconds. You can try to justify thieves all you want but it comes down to the simple fact of being able to break combat easily, stealthing at near 50% hp and popping back at full. Lets not forget the damage either.

2222222 STEALTH

I am not trying to “justify” anything. Thief does have its own advantage but so do other classes. True, a duel between a thief and another class usually ends up with the thief being victorious or the thief escaping but that is a duel and the thief gets preemptive strike.

Play a thief. Yes, you may still have trouble killing a thief who ambush you but I promise that your chances of survival will be greatly increased.

Also, in low participation server, the thief is the best class to roam solo, avoiding zerks, scouting and disrupting the enemy. When I have a zerk to follow around, I usually wont play my thief.

All I hear is “thief is easy-mode”

Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.

I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.

Plainview.7029:

Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.

I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.

I dont zerg so I wouldnt know. Only ever been in small roaming guilds.

Plainview.7029:

Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.

I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.

Individual skill is diffused in a zerg setting, but you could argue in an even Zerg v zerg, the zerg with the most skilled individuals will come out on top.

Personally, I enjoy rolling with the zerg on my thief. I know blast finishers and stealth rezes don’t create a strong argument, but it always seems clutch in practice.

Recently, i’ve taken a liking to immobilizing stragglers from enemy zergs. Since i’m faster than most players, i like to chop that one up to a contribution.

And the other night, i helped with a zerg push by rushing the enemy zerg by myself, and shadowstepping back to my zerg. As the enemies jumped on the chance to gank me, they were caught out of position by my zerg and we ended up taking the tower.

I am a thief and a tpvper I hold sentry points and announce when enemy forces come by and what direction they are headed…. but that is really secondary I really just do it to kill wvwers cause 95% are bad at pvp. People that know what they are doing don’t get killed by thieves at least at the moment as we are the one of the weakest classes in current play.

Mike.7320:

Plainview.7029:

Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.

I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.

I dont zerg so I wouldnt know. Only ever been in small roaming guilds.

Please view my reply as genuine. I am not attempting mockery or sarcasm here at all. Small roaming guilds sound like a cracking good time. Give me this much. Agree with me that roaming guilds are a small representation of the grander wvw population. If you can agree with that, then also consider that some thiefs attempt to do the same thing a small roaming group does just on an individual level.

Again, the theif community has a bad rep. I understand that. I also agree that there are players who roll thf solely so they can grief other players. I am asking the general community to understand that they have a role to play. You may not like that role because it involves deceptive and evasive strategies, but also consider the limitations that a thf has. Low hp, toughness, vit and virtually no group applications to speak of. You cannot expect a toe to toe fight given these limitations.

Plainview hit the nail on the head. Thieves are strong in 1v1 which allows them to take out enemy scouts and ranged support in zergs. Aside from that, thieves aren’t really useful anywhere else unless the thief has properly speced for the situation and knows exactly what they are doing in said situation.

Mike.7320:

Plainview.7029:

Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.

I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.

I dont zerg so I wouldnt know. Only ever been in small roaming guilds.

Someone has been owned by thieves too much…

Plainview.7029:

I should thank all of you for living up to my expecations. I never really expected a serious discussion. Part of me wanted to see how quick it would turn into a thief-hate thread. Looks like less than a half hour.

A point of curiousity though. When you are running with a spec group or zerg, aside from commanding the zerg, what actual skill does your role require? That’s sort of the discussion I was trying to generate. When you have 30-40 people with you all doing the same thing, you individual talent level is essentially non-detectable. If you aren’t with your crew and get killed, then you got killed. Deal with it. OR you can work on your individual skills and try to counter it. It is possible.

It’s not important though. Continue with your complaints. I recommend you get a few bunker guardians in here to lambast the boon stripping. I haven’t heard one of those in a while.

Eventually any new thief will find their roll in WvW, I play mesmer, ele, thief and engi and I try to adapt to every situation by switching between my chars, is not that hard to figure out which one will adapt better for X situation…. I personally like to only down as many people as I’m able to and run around playing cat & mouse because like you said there is so much hatred toward the thief that I take advantage of that :P

What I can tell you is that…. thief is the most awesome scout class I love spamming map chat haha

As someone who has 11.5k kills in WvW despite a 3 month hiatus from the game (I also don’t do GvG), all earned on my thief I sorely disagree with your notion that thiefs aren’t good for zergs. Cluster bomb is one of the best spells in the game, thieves are the only class with a spammable blast finisher, if that isn’t great utility I don’t know what is. On top of this we have access to several AoE blinds which are very effective (don’t forget shadow refuge is a dark combo field). Not to mention how tank a thief can be if he is running a decent amount (I run 570 after food) of Healing Power and signet of malice as well as beeing traited for defense 0/10/30/30/0 and regeneration. In the midst of large zerg fights thieves can spam cluster bomb (make sure you explode it) and dagger storm to gain massive amounts of health from signet of malice.

To put it in perspective for you in zerg fights I simply don’t die while dagger storm is up if I am in the fray of everything because of all the healing,
Also, each cluster bomb gives me a total healing of around 2k and I can cast 4 of them in short succession, not to mention the regen boon I probably have.
If I ever get tons of condi’s stacked on me I simply pop into stealth with blinding powder/shadow refuge because I am traited to remove condis in stealth as well as heal in stealth so pretty much as soon as I pop out of even a blinding powder I am full health again.

Ahh, So let me see if I can figure out what the OP is saying

That Thieves should be allowed to kill with impunity in WvW and get away Scott free because that is their specific role?

Can someone please point it out where Anet has said that Thieves are the only ones allowed to run around in WvW solo, Because its not like you can’t zerg just fine as a Thief (I do it all the time on mine)

The Thief can group or solo but the cheesy design of the class attracts and encourages trolls.

Xsorus.2507:

Ahh, So let me see if I can figure out what the OP is saying

That Thieves should be allowed to kill with impunity in WvW and get away Scott free because that is their specific role?

Can someone please point it out where Anet has said that Thieves are the only ones allowed to run around in WvW solo, Because its not like you can’t zerg just fine as a Thief (I do it all the time on mine)

True, you can zerg with a thief. I may have sounded too absolute in that “they have no other place” sentiment. Please allow the correction.

As far as killing with impunity goes, there is no class that can kill with impunity. I’ve been reversed by skilled players when I tried to gank them with thief. It happens. These instances are dependent on the individual skill level of the target player.

I think that perhaps you misunderstood my intent. The title “The Role of Thief in WvW” implies a topic which discusses the thief’s potential place in WvW. it didn’t say “The Trolly Thief” or “Why Thief is the Best Class” etc. I attempted (rather foolishly in hind sight) to invite a discussion for those who command zergs or play as a thief to discuss the potential applications of the class.

If your wish is to complain about how a thief once made a playscape out of your toon, then there are copious threads to that effect as I had earlier indicated.

Ask yourself why 90% of the classes in this game are forced to go something besides Glass Cannon but the Thief is not

That should tell you why the class is broken

Mike.7320:

ParnAshwind.4823:

I was just walking around in the borderlands trying to get map completion! Then a thief from no where blinded me and stab me repeatedly and bleed me dry!!

I didnt even go to territories controlled by da enemy, I was just walking around portion of the map that my server controls!

So no, killing me does not assist your server because me being there actually take up a spot that may no longer be available to someone else who really wants to WvW! You are actually doing ma server a service cos I ran back to LA sulking and heartbroken.

=P

Ahahaha that thief did his job well.. Lets face it, thief is the easiest, most gimmicky, cheesiest class this game has to offer for wvw.

If a thief cant win a fight (determined in first 10seconds of contact) they stealth and run away.

If a thief is going to win, also decided in the first 10seconds. You can try to justify thieves all you want but it comes down to the simple fact of being able to break combat easily, stealthing at near 50% hp and popping back at full. Lets not forget the damage either.

2222222 STEALTH

You must be new here since what you write doesn’t make much sense. Thanks for the laugh though and welcome to GW2.

Its good for role playing that everyone hates thieves, but it isn’t the class skills that are the problem. If you ask any tpvp if thieves pawn them in wvw or tpvp they will say not very often though they do get the jump on me some times. They know how to handle thieves because we fight them often and we don’t freak out when we are being attacked by them because we know it takes one skill to kill them and the only thing that will get us killed is our own foolishness if we allow it too.

So in conclusion it is not the game that is the problem it is you. If the game were the issue there would be 100% agreement. I know what your thinking the people that disagree are thieves that don’t want to get nerfed… I do have a thief and I consider it the weakest of my classes, but lucky for me that I can still kill people that don’t know how to play. Lets say that they did nerf us we would still kill you because you don’t know what your doing.

You do realize that they nerfed multiple abilities of the Thief in SPvP right? and you have 4 second Revealed vs 3 second revealed in WvW

So your exp there means jack and kitten.

The role of a thief in WvW is to annoy. Plain and simple.

The class is actually keeping people from playing WvW. If you look at threads asking why people don’t WvW getting ganked by a thief is way up there.

Now whether you simpathize with these people or not, when a single class causes people to not play a game mode that we are constantly trying to get more people to play, something is wrong with that class.

lol you kids are a joke.

Xsorass my exp in tpvp is minor when compared with my hundreds if not thousands of hours in wvw of my almost 3k hours played. I started the game with AA and am on black gate with most of the remaining players now but if there was one thing you would know its jack and kitten. lol

Johje are you saying that the reason some people don’t pvp is because some one kills them…. gotcha.

Thesilentflute.8761:

lol you kids are a joke.

Xsorass my exp in tpvp is minor when compared with my hundreds if not thousands of hours in wvw of my almost 3k hours played. I started the game with AA and am on black gate with most of the remaining players now but if there was one thing you would know its jack and kitten. lol

Johje are you saying that the reason some people don’t pvp is because some one kills them…. gotcha.

Go look at the threads about getting more people to play WvW. One commonly mentioned reason is thieves. Not because someone kills them, but specifically thieves, because thieves are annoying as kitten to fight.

Personally, the only thing I do is WvW. I’ve been killed by thieves, forced them to retreat, and killed some. They’re not going to drive me away from WvW. But whether I win, lose or draw, it is simply not fun to fight them.

Johje Holan.4607:

Thesilentflute.8761:

lol you kids are a joke.

Xsorass my exp in tpvp is minor when compared with my hundreds if not thousands of hours in wvw of my almost 3k hours played. I started the game with AA and am on black gate with most of the remaining players now but if there was one thing you would know its jack and kitten. lol

Johje are you saying that the reason some people don’t pvp is because some one kills them…. gotcha.

Go look at the threads about getting more people to play WvW. One commonly mentioned reason is thieves. Not because someone kills them, but specifically thieves, because thieves are annoying as kitten to fight. And everyone’s been blindsided by a thief at some point. And its simply not fun to fight them. That’s what I’m saying.

Personally, the only thing I do is WvW. I’ve been killed by thieves, forced them to retreat, and killed some. They’re not going to drive me away from WvW. But whether I win, lose or draw, it is not fun to fight them.

Which reminds me of a major role of the thief: Scouting.
Consider the fact that scouts (be they thief or any class), by virtue of their objective, do not benefit from the protection of a zerg or even a small organized group. Despite this, they can still effectively observe and evade. I’ll understand if this comes as little or no consolation to you since you seem to be fixated on the ability to kill another layer, but then again, there is more to WvW than the gratification of a small few (since those taking keeps, towers, etc typically benefit from the protection of numbers and are never in danger of a thief attack).

Mike.7320:

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I felt this appropriate for a thief thread.

If anyone ever die to a heartseeker spamming thief, then it’s a serious learn to play issue……

To OP: My Thief can actually kill people in zergs. That’s not because of stealth (no stealth thief here), but because the drooling brains that zerg. People tend to want to stick with the zerg and if the commander doesn’t attack me then nobody do. Teamwork is an almost non-existent term in zergs.

People don’t understand that their team build was killed by a duelist build. Ofcourse did the thief win! The profession is designed for small fights and skirmishing, so stop complaining about being owned by someone who made their build for that exact purpose – 1v1 people.

Thesilentflute.8761:

lol you kids are a joke.

Xsorass my exp in tpvp is minor when compared with my hundreds if not thousands of hours in wvw of my almost 3k hours played. I started the game with AA and am on black gate with most of the remaining players now but if there was one thing you would know its jack and kitten. lol

Johje are you saying that the reason some people don’t pvp is because some one kills them…. gotcha.

Its not my fault you tried to bring TPvP into the argument on why Thieves aren’t oped, only to have it pointed out all the changes they’ve done to TPvP to make them somewhat balanced, How about we go back to 4 second Revealed, or Revealed after coming out of stealth period.

My first main character is an 80 Thief so when I’m playing one of my other characters whether it’s a Guard, Engi or Ranger and I die to a Thief I know exactly why I die and what I could have done to avoid it. Most of the time I just shrug my shoulders and take a different path to catch up to my team. I rarely bother wasting my time on thieves in WvW, it’s not worth the effort when I could be doing something useful for my server

Great post OP, and to the others complaining are you this Mesmer?

http://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714/c/2617773

Lol you missed the point its not like you put a tpvper in wvw and they’re like “Oh no thieves!! 0_o what do I do they can stealth one second faster???” because it doesn’t make a difference as soon as that refuge goes down the thief is going to die if it wasn’t burst down or chain cced the second it popped out of stealth.

Mike.7320:

ParnAshwind.4823:

I was just walking around in the borderlands trying to get map completion! Then a thief from no where blinded me and stab me repeatedly and bleed me dry!!

I didnt even go to territories controlled by da enemy, I was just walking around portion of the map that my server controls!

So no, killing me does not assist your server because me being there actually take up a spot that may no longer be available to someone else who really wants to WvW! You are actually doing ma server a service cos I ran back to LA sulking and heartbroken.

=P

Ahahaha that thief did his job well.. Lets face it, thief is the easiest, most gimmicky, cheesiest class this game has to offer for wvw.

If a thief cant win a fight (determined in first 10seconds of contact) they stealth and run away.

If a thief is going to win, also decided in the first 10seconds. You can try to justify thieves all you want but it comes down to the simple fact of being able to break combat easily, stealthing at near 50% hp and popping back at full. Lets not forget the damage either.

2222222 STEALTH

You are correct.

Aside to this..

Many Fail to notice is that Arena net is the bigger key player in the whole Thief Godlike Mode.

They are the one who Intentionally created and designed this class to Monopolize and Tyrannize all the classes including wvw and spvp world at will..

We can Hate Theif all we want but it is Arena net who should be the main focus because they are the ones who are Fully Responsible and Liable for their GodLikeThief Class Act of Malevolence.

In addition,

They careless about the Severirty of Impact their GodLike Theif class have causes and continue to cause.

1 Year Anniversary will be for their GodLike Thief; ‘let the other incompitent classes be the bystanders and watch their GodLike Theif be Awarded for being The Exceeding Powerful Class of 2012 and Beyond and also for being the No Risk Class of 2012 and Beyond’.

“If you refuse to be the bystander to witness their Glorious Thief 1 Year Anniversary, than trying run than ‘hide’ and wait for your Quick Silent Burial’.

‘Happy Anniversary’

Thief

Plainview.7029:

I’m sorry, but when you are with the zerg, you are practically untouchable to theives.

I don’t know what game you are playing, but it doesn’t seem to be the same. I get targeted by thieves in every second zerg fight. Steal, backstab attempts, heartseeker spam etc. And lately also main hand sword thieves. Usually they fail, because I have built my build to counter many of their typical attacks. But I constantly see my allies stealth stomped by thieves.

Contrary to the propaganda spread by stealth defenders in these forums:
- thieves are rather common in a zerg setting
- even several of top guild vs guilds (gvg) guilds utilize thieves and now I am talking about the best pro WvWvW guilds, which are playing on totally different level than your so called “good” zergs (but I agree all 3 medium armor professions, including thieves, rangers and engineers, are the most rare in a pro guild setting)
- thief commanders are much better than most would expect (they seem to have one of the best survivability in the game. I have rarely seen our thief commanders go down even when everybody else gets wiped and having your team wiped can happen to any commander)

Basically you wrote a long essay, which was just trying to paint thieves as weak useless profession for WvWvW, which they are not.

Did you say top gvg?.. this guy must be pro.

Johje Holan.4607:

whether I win, lose or draw, it is simply not fun to fight them.

^^
The reason the current design for thief sucks. They have a role, they’re quite good at it (in zerg fights too if specced for it) but it’d be nice if fighting them wasn’t such a bloody tiresome chore

[quote=2563314;Deniara Devious.3948:]

woops. The point was contribute to the discussion is a positive manner. Don’t try and belittle my opinion. Show a little respect and offer your counter in a respectful manner.

My intention wasn’t to be disrespectful, but I still disagree about the main point: that thieves can no other place in WvWvW than roaming.

Of course if you build thief for solo roaming, he is gonna suck in a zerg setting. But similarly if you build your ranger or engineer for solo roaming purposes only, he is also gonna be one of the most useless in a zerg. Similar if your character is built only for large groups, he will be at disadvantage when alone.

Thief can be built to be an effective commander and functional part of the zerg. I agree that thief is in the bottom 3 profession when it comes to pro guild teams, but ALL the medium armor professions are in that bottom. Heavy armor professions form the base of the pro guild team, supported by light armor professions.

None of this is still gonna change the fact that stealth (and to a lesser degree teleportation/shadowstepping) is broken in WvWvW.

Plainview.7029:

This is intended (perhaps a futile effort) to explain to some folks what a thief does in WvW. There are a plethora of posts from the coutless victims of thief roamers who kitten and moan that they are trolls, that they have no application to the group, and that they are otherwise useless in WvW.

If you are one of these people, ask yourself a few questions:
1.) Where were you at the time of your death by thief?
2.) What was your objective at said time?
3.) Most importantly (perhaps should be question 1) what is your utility in WvW?

The reason I pose these questions is because people seem to think that thieves are useless and serve no purpose. Clearly, you do not understand the mechanics of WvW.

If the answer to question number 1 is “not with the zerg,” then you should expect to be targeted. I’m sorry, but when you are with the zerg, you are practically untouchable to theives. Anyone who claims they were plucked from the ranks by a thief, or that they did the plucking is either a straight-up liar or is embellishing the details. Now…when you aren’t benefitting from the protection of the zerg…you are swimming with sharks. This game is simulated warfare, and gurilla tactics are a part of that. That means harrassing stragglers, supply lines, and the zerg itself (see supply traps).

This brings us to question number 2. If you aren’t with the zerg when you get killed by a thief (and we can assume as much based on the untouchability mentioned above), then we can deduce that you are running to get to the zerg, esupplying at a camp, or you yourself are scouting and roaming. If you get killed by a thief whilst performing any of these tasks, then the thief assisted his servers war effort by imparing yours.

Question three is a little more abstract but is designed to view questions 1 and 2 more hollistically. It is designed to get your interpretation of WvW and where each class fits in. Thieves are not made for zerg-mechanics. They are built for knife-work. Hitting yaks, placing traps to hinder the zerg, disrupting “trickling-in” of reinforcements, and countering enemy scouts (this one’s important because no matter what server you are from, you have firendly thieves doing all these things).

In short, I posted this because although they may be annoying, thieves serve a tactical purpose in WvW. They use guerrilla tactics and as such are hard to beat with brute force. Evaluate your place in WvW. If it is serving some greater purpose with the main groups…then pray stay with the group. Roaming can be performed by any class, but unlike every other class, a thief has no other place in WvW, so don’t complain when they do the only job truly suited for them.

You state there are “roles” and such, but really you’re completely wrong. A-net stated themselves that you should be able to play the game however you feel, without any types of “roles”. You are the one missing the point.

Sure I can use a rock to open a can of beans, but a can-opener is better suited to the task. Very constructive reply though.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You state there are “roles” and such, but really you’re completely wrong. A-net stated themselves that you should be able to play the game however you feel, without any types of “roles”. You are the one missing the point.

I believe Anet was referencing the holy MMO trinity (tank, healer, DPS) when they were talking about non-specific class roles. I also believe they were purposeful in the design of classes to be more effective in specific roles in WvW.

Plainview.7029:

Sure I can use a rock to open a can of beans, but a can-opener is better suited to the task. Very constructive reply though.

I agree. Every class can pretty much do any objective some are clearly more suited and effective at filling those objectives such as a necro in a zerg versus a thief roaming. Both can contribute in either role but when specialized they are clearly more efficient at one style of play over another.

Scrambles.2604:

Individual skill is diffused in a zerg setting, but you could argue in an even Zerg v zerg, the zerg with the most skilled individuals will come out on top.

Personally, I enjoy rolling with the zerg on my thief. I know blast finishers and stealth rezes don’t create a strong argument, but it always seems clutch in practice.

Recently, i’ve taken a liking to immobilizing stragglers from enemy zergs. Since i’m faster than most players, i like to chop that one up to a contribution.

And the other night, i helped with a zerg push by rushing the enemy zerg by myself, and shadowstepping back to my zerg. As the enemies jumped on the chance to gank me, they were caught out of position by my zerg and we ended up taking the tower.

Class composition and builds are actually extremely important in zerg vs zerg warfare. Thief really doesn’t have a competitive role in this. You can run 1-2 token thieves for really niche jobs, but that’s about it and you’d likely still get more mileage out of another Warrior or Guardian.

I really don’t think this will change either, even if Warriors/Guardians get de-emphaized because it will be next to impossible to give Thief truly viable team utility considering the shenanigans they have access to with little or no investment. If nothing else sheerly because those capabilities keep the HP pool so low in a failed attempt to balance those shenanigans.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You state there are “roles” and such, but really you’re completely wrong. A-net stated themselves that you should be able to play the game however you feel, without any types of “roles”. You are the one missing the point.

I believe Anet was referencing the holy MMO trinity (tank, healer, DPS) when they were talking about non-specific class roles. I also believe they were purposeful in the design of classes to be more effective in specific roles in WvW. [/quote]

They were actually quite honest that at the beginning WvW was a complete afterthought and they had no idea it would be as popular as it is. They even said at one time it was not supposed to be balanced.

They have since changed their minds, but there was definitely no ideas of defining WvW roles. That is something that happened by sheer accident and player innovation.

I just posted my usual zergging build in another thread, but I figure I can toss it up here and expose it to the most ridicule possible. The goal above all else in the build is Moar Blast Finishers! It’s made to support your teammates more than anything, while staying alive/not being rally fodder, which is easy for a poorly built thief in a zerg to become.

10/0/0/30/30

I take the damage/health on steal trait in the first line.

Acrobatics I have fall damage reduction, extra init every 10 seconds, and the third one changes pretty frequently, usually the heal on init usage lately.

I have fury/might/swiftness on steal, vigor on steal/boon steal (I think that one is Bountiful Theft), and the interrupt on steal/steal CD reduction. These three further allow me to play supportively, but overall the build isn’t completely useless ins small scale battles. You just have to play… wait for it… intelligently and skillfully. I can keep swiftness on a slow (mesmer) commander (or yak, or back of the tail…) for 13 out of every 21 seconds all by myself, too.

And no, I can’t ever remember the names of the actual traits.

I use SB in large group engagements for the aforementioned blast finishers, and use D/P for more personal fights. Yes, I use HS, no it is not all I use, that gets you dead to good players. No, I don’t “abuse” stealth, but I’m not above using it if I need it. For 9 init a whack, I’m definitely not spamming it.

I use Withdraw for my heal. I use Scorpion Wire since it’s cooldown was reduced. It’s nice for dragging called targets into your zerg, or a great interrupt in smaller fights, even if the pull kitten s out. Roll for initiative for additional stunbreak/init regeneration. Sig of Shadows for… well speed. Dagger Storm because it’s WvW and I’m not made for venom sharing.

It grants survivability, utility, and enough damage output to be on even footing with any given player in a 1v1, while still being designed for large group play.

Very little use of stealth, certainly nothing close to spamming. Crazy utility for my group.

7 classes excel at team roles and 1 class excels at solo/duo role. Since these 1v1 or 2v1 situations happen so frequently in WvW you have a single class that monopolizes that entire realm of play, and the other 7 classes must share the other realm (though you could argue guardian > all).

OP, perhaps you need to consider thief players themselves as one of the sources of their reputation. They love to downplay their class as terrible and useless every time an issue comes up, yet for some reason thieves are still dime a dozen.