Guild Wars 2

We all know that to play defense/scouting is almost impossible. Even if you put a treb for the gate, carts on the walls for proxy catas and trebs inside for attacking catas/trebs, the enemies can still quickly take your beloved T3 objective fully sieged/repaired/scouted/etc.

How?
Proxy catapults. They cast aoe skills on the walls, then all arrow carts on top of the wall die and then they place catapults, hit the wall and cap your tower or keep. There’s nothing you can do about it, even if there are 20 ppl inside and the enemies are 30-40.

What can arena.net do?
Make siege only killable by siege. You want to kill an arrow cart, then you better have a cart of your own. While we’re at it it’s best to make gates and barricades only vulnerable to siege, not normal player skills.

What do you think?

On the one hand I like this idea, but on the other hand I see some unbeautiful consequences.

Whenever you defend something without the help of siege, you will have to built siege afterwards just to kill the enemy siege. For example enemies build catas at a random wall. You wipe them. Afterwards the catas are still there. You can either wait for them to respawn or you have to build own siege to kill them.

Right now I don’t consider defending a big problem either. 90% of the wvw players don’t play cleverly when attacking something. However they don’t even have to because very rarely somebody defends in the first place.

Granted that there are ambitious and versed defenders and attackers, I don’t think the attacker has that much advantages. Why is it that aoe skills can annul your entire defense? Anet should just make a few alterations to the east side of the map in order to make it more defender-friendly. In no way can you defend the Palace against a commander who knows its weaknesses.

Well a normal ballista only costs 30 supply, so it’s cheap to take down siege.
It’s also funny that you can’t kill the trebs for the gates, so you storm in, capture the objective, but the trebs are still there. So you can wait for them to despawn or kill them with carts or ballistas. It would be funny for someone to hide inside and use the treb to attack the gate from the inside

I thought a lot about how you can make carts on the walls not that vulnerable.

• If you prohibit aoe on the walls then you can exploit that by trying to fight on the walls knowing that you can’t use aoe.
• If you make the walls very high then the carts will be out of range
• If you make the wall very wide then the walls will look very ugly and they have to be so wide that a meteor sower can’t hit which is kinda` ridiculous.
• If spikes are placed at the base of the wall the enemy still has range to aoe. You might not be able to place proxy catas, but you will place them as close to the spikes as possible and still the same problems remain.

Making that siege and gates/barricades can only be damaged by siege will make the zergs slower and now the defenders have a better chance succeeding.

The enemies will only be forced to spend an extra 40/50 supplies for a cart to take down the defending carts. So it’s not such a big deal for them, but at least it’s something.

Catalin.5341:

We all know that to play defense/scouting is almost impossible. Even if you put a treb for the gate, carts on the walls for proxy catas and trebs inside for attacking catas/trebs, the enemies can still quickly take your beloved T3 objective fully sieged/repaired/scouted/etc.

How?
Proxy catapults. They cast aoe skills on the walls, then all arrow carts on top of the wall die and then they place catapults, hit the wall and cap your tower or keep. There’s nothing you can do about it, even if there are 20 ppl inside and the enemies are 30-40.

What can arena.net do?
Make siege only killable by siege. You want to kill an arrow cart, then you better have a cart of your own. While we’re at it it’s best to make gates and barricades only vulnerable to siege, not normal player skills.

What do you think?

Defense is already easy if you have enough people and siege in the right spots. 20 can defend against 40 easy. Making ACs harder to kill is not required. ACs are kitten on the mode and have been ever since their power was increased way back when.

What is required is to make defence rewarding but anet will apparently never do that.

I mostly agree that the problem you state exists but I really don’t agree with the solution. Something as simple as not allowing AoEs to wrap over the top of walls (sounds simple, at least) would do the trick. Then killing siege placed on walls would require either a treb or a balli or any projectile that wasn’t obstructed. The result would be that being at the base of a tower wall would be very dangerous due to the AC fire, which is how it should be. However, sieging it from a little way away would be perfectly safe.

The downside is that, with enough ACs, it would be hard to get through any hole you made. This could be solved by either nerfing AC damage vs players (but not siege) or allowing players to build a sort of ballista with scaffolding to shoot from a higher angle.

Sviel.7493:

I mostly agree that the problem you state exists

Why is it a problem?

It’s a problem because , rather than promoting player interaction, it makes it all but impossible. Proxy catas are both the fastest and safest route to getting through a wall if you have a few folks to spam AoE upstairs. Additionally, as it’s much harder to attack downstairs, enemies will be hardpressed to respond.

If the structure is undefended, it makes sense that walls melt to proxy catas. If it is defended, such an assault should be foolish…but it isn’t.

Sviel.7493:

It’s a problem because , rather than promoting player interaction, it makes it all but impossible. Proxy catas are both the fastest and safest route to getting through a wall if you have a few folks to spam AoE upstairs. Additionally, as it’s much harder to attack downstairs, enemies will be hardpressed to respond.

If the structure is undefended, it makes sense that walls melt to proxy catas. If it is defended, such an assault should be foolish…but it isn’t.

Like I said defence is easy if you even have half the numbers of the attackers and the keep is properly sieged. If anything its too easy since ACs are so strong.

Sviel.7493:

It’s a problem because , rather than promoting player interaction, it makes it all but impossible. Proxy catas are both the fastest and safest route to getting through a wall if you have a few folks to spam AoE upstairs. Additionally, as it’s much harder to attack downstairs, enemies will be hardpressed to respond.

If the structure is undefended, it makes sense that walls melt to proxy catas. If it is defended, such an assault should be foolish…but it isn’t.

IMO the problem doesn’t exist because like I said defence is easy if you even have half the numbers of the attackers and the keep is properly sieged. If anything its too easy since ACs are so strong.

Not sure why you said that in two posts, but you’re not considering that ACs are fragile and almost always vulnerable to enemy attack. In addition, they only have the potential to make defense easy when the enemy is right next to the walls/gates. In that situation, the defenders should have a huge advantage.

What happens, then, is that attackers pepper the wall with damage while their catas go to town. Even with a defending force equal to half the attackers, they can’t keep an AC alive long enough to take down any siege. No other siege can hit something built right next to a wall, either, leaving the defenders with no recourse.

Defending is way too freaking easy right now. Let’s not make it too overpowered. Your structure has to be somewhat vulnerable to being flipped, or else what’s the point of even trying?

We’ve wiped zergs 2-3 times our size while they were attacking keep lords, because the keep lords right now are insanely strong. There’s really no reason to buff defense any further.

Sviel.7493:

Not sure why you said that in two posts, but you’re not considering that ACs are fragile and almost always vulnerable to enemy attack. In addition, they only have the potential to make defense easy when the enemy is right next to the walls/gates. In that situation, the defenders should have a huge advantage.

What happens, then, is that attackers pepper the wall with damage while their catas go to town. Even with a defending force equal to half the attackers, they can’t keep an AC alive long enough to take down any siege. No other siege can hit something built right next to a wall, either, leaving the defenders with no recourse.

There’s also cannons, mortars, catas and trebs and ACs can be placed in areas which can’t be reached by aoe.

What is required is to make defence rewarding but anet will apparently never do that.

I may be the only person on Earth, but the reward I get from defending is something personal. Don’t need any carrot on a stick or virtual pixels to increase my self-worth and grant me instant gratification. I get a rush when I know I have repelled an enemy zerg because they were too dumb to get creative. Check this video where I deny a map jump zerg an easy cap – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NghKfPczkgU&list=PLduHbZPbtobGpF6P9Xb2qO00ZguZN4DjX&index=4#t=6m19s

Like I said defence is easy if you even have half the numbers of the attackers and the keep is properly sieged. If anything its too easy since ACs are so strong.

This makes me doubt you ever scouted an objective from paper to T3 to getting captured. Depends a lot on the enemies. If they know what they are doing (some guilds on T1 servers) then all your defensive siege inside the objective falls down on that lonely cart on a wall.

Once they easily take it down with meteor shower and place proxy catapults then you are done. As a scout, you can now log off or go to another objective to defend, but what’s the point? You spent hours to siege it up and upgrade it and some guys come in, kill your cart, place catas and destroy the wall.

Some can say, well, you yell in CAPS LOCK on the chat for commanders to come. If that’s the case then why are sieging it up in the first place, what’s the point, if they can destroy that cart so easily? You might as well sit there for reporting to commanders when enemies are nearby. There’s no need for you to do dolly runs, repair walls, build siege etc. Might as well be a bot and check for the defend event poppin at the top when the objective is hit.

Catalin.5341:

I may be the only person on Earth, but the reward I get from defending is something personal. Don’t need any carrot on a stick or virtual pixels to increase my self-worth and grant me instant gratification. I get a rush when I know I have repelled an enemy zerg because they were too dumb to get creative. Check this video where I deny a map jump zerg an easy cap – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NghKfPczkgU&list=PLduHbZPbtobGpF6P9Xb2qO00ZguZN4DjX&index=4#t=6m19s

You’re not the only one, but you can’t expect everyone to have that same mentality. By not having a reward system for defenders, the game is essentially creating a system that puts everyone down. The people that don’t want to do it still have no incentive to do it and those that do sometimes get burnt out from being on call so much.

Catalin.5341:

This makes me doubt you ever scouted an objective from paper to T3 to getting captured. Depends a lot on the enemies. If they know what they are doing (some guilds on T1 servers) then all your defensive siege inside the objective falls down on that lonely cart on a wall.

Once they easily take it down with meteor shower and place proxy catapults then you are done. As a scout, you can now log off or go to another objective to defend, but what’s the point? You spent hours to siege it up and upgrade it and some guys come in, kill your cart, place catas and destroy the wall.

Some can say, well, you yell in CAPS LOCK on the chat for commanders to come. If that’s the case then why are sieging it up in the first place, what’s the point, if they can destroy that cart so easily? You might as well sit there for reporting to commanders when enemies are nearby. There’s no need for you to do dolly runs, repair walls, build siege etc. Might as well be a bot and check for the defend event poppin at the top when the objective is hit.

So what? You should not be able to 1vX a group that is playing intelligently just because you have an AC. WvW is designed around large groups and coordinating with your teammates.

Ultimaistanza.4793:

So what? You should not be able to 1vX a group that is playing intelligently just because you have an AC. WvW is designed around large groups and coordinating with your teammates.

You’re absolutely right here. The problem is that the group is not playing intelligently but still can’t be denied. They’re just putting siege in an area where defenders have no ability to attack it. If they were chaining cata bubbles or using a shield generator or hitting multiple spots at once or taking down counter siege with ballistas from vantage points…that would be a different matter. That would be a true game of play and counter-play.

@Catalin
I don’t want to get rich defending. I just want to be able to mostly defend and pay for the necessary tools of defense. The WXP might be fine at this point, honestly, since things are more likely to need repair since they can more successful be defended. The badges, on the other hand, are non-existent. I do staggering sums of damage to enemies but rarely actually finish them since they retreat if under pressure.

I agree with off hours pvd ktrain high lord Reverence. Those fast catas are a godsent, when he is running a queue ktrain vs walls. Pls keep it as is till we can get all the heroics. I will be honest I have no clue where he can find a blob even 2x his size though, but at least its a less annoying way to get elite specs unlock than hp trains in hot.

Catalin.5341:

Some can say, well, you yell in CAPS LOCK on the chat for commanders to come. If that’s the case then why are sieging it up in the first place, what’s the point, if they can destroy that cart so easily? You might as well sit there for reporting to commanders when enemies are nearby. There’s no need for you to do dolly runs, repair walls, build siege etc. Might as well be a bot and check for the defend event poppin at the top when the objective is hit.

You appear to want to be able to defend effectively with only 1 or 2 people. You should not be able to. If 1 or 2 people can effectively defend against even 20 defence is too strong. If your sever wants to defend they have to send sufficient force. And you can scout and siege up an objective for a defending force to use with siege in places that an attacking force can’t get to now.

And yes I have scouted and shepherded through upgrades whilst escorting yaks etc.

You appear to want to be able to defend effectively with only 1 or 2 people.

Against people that just place catas and cast meteor shower where-ever I should be able to deny them the fast capture.

If they were chaining cata bubbles or using a shield generator or hitting multiple spots at once or taking down counter siege with ballistas from vantage points…that would be a different matter. That would be a true game of play and counter-play.

Like Sviel said. It doesn’t mean they can’t capture the objective, but at least force them to get creative instead of complacent. Make them think for a second, deploy siege tactics, carts to counter carts, treb to bomb treb inside, divide in 2 teams and attack 2 points at the same time. Something else, than just placing catas FTW.

Dream In A Dream.7213:

I agree with off hours pvd ktrain high lord Reverence. Those fast catas are a godsent, when he is running a queue ktrain vs walls. Pls keep it as is till we can get all the heroics. I will be honest I have no clue where he can find a blob even 2x his size though, but at least its a less annoying way to get elite specs unlock than hp trains in hot.

Excuse me, my title is “#1 Karma Train Commander OCX” tyvm. I shall forgive your ignorance as it appears you are not familiar with the OCX time zone. Now run off and let the big boys and girls talk.

I see advantages and disadvantages to siege only being able to destroy siege. For one arrow carts would be impossible to destroy in alot of cases by attackers. Rams are usually the counter to arrow carts, unless ac’s are used en mass, so maybe it could work with some changes to how certain siege interact with others. I’d support invulnerable gates for fortified gates. I think its stupid that you can aoe down a gate when you have a zerg present. I mean basic wood gates….who cares, let them get chopped down. Fortified should give more advantages though.

I’d rather they just do something with the siege decay timers. You get to that point where your defenses are fully upgraded and have full supply and you can’t do anything really to keep them safe unless you have enough people since u can’t build things fast enough. Consider how short supply is on frontline structures, and the fact you have to spend 300+ supply to fully repair a single fortified wall…..and you have to repair cannons/oil/mortars…. it just makes sense to up the siege decay timers.

Or if that’s too much to ask, then situational increases would be good: When you get the ‘outnumbered’ icon, all your siege on the map is refreshed and the timers do not decrease until outnumbered is gone. I think that’s a pretty simple way to help things. There’s plenty of 1-4 hour periods where one borderland is severely outnumbered by 1 or more of the others. Planning ahead and building the defenses at your rear fortifications and defending the front ones for as long as possible makes defense much more viabl when u dont’ have to worry about porting back to refresh those siege weapons or leaving them there and having to getoff for the night. Somebody else can then take advantage of the defences. There’s just not enough options on what you can do to defend a fortified installation….it all boils down to playercount and that is stupid.

Planning ahead and building the defenses at your rear fortifications and defending the front ones for as long as possible makes defense much more viabl when u dont’ have to worry about porting back to refresh those siege weapons or leaving them there and having to getoff for the night

But what’s the point of fully sieging an objective, when they can easily meteor down your cart on the wall and take it by proxy catapults?

Like I said in another thread about defense.

Your doing it wrong!

If anything defense is currently too strong and it is way to easy for a defending force to remove an attacking forces seige. The arrow cart cap is to high and should be lowered, and don’t get me started on the shield generator and supply drop. Both of which should have never been added to the game.

The overall problem isn’t defense being to weak. The problem is the expectations of a few people who only like to defend. This is a game. The towers and keeps are not in the game to be consider and used in the same manner as real castles and keeps. The keeps.in game are not ment to be a strong hold to conceal you from an invading force. They are ment to be an object to force servers to fight each other. The walls are just there to slow the enemy down so the defenders have time to respond. If your server doesn’t respond fast enough then you should lose it.

Ive spent the majority of my wvw time as a defender. Ive spent 8 hours on a treb to defend a keep against a bandwagon server with a population to high for the tier they are in.

5 people successful defending against 50 is not and should not be a game mechanic. Eventually your server is going to have to group up and push the enemy off your tower or keep. If not they can set outside take your camp dwindle down your supply poke multiple hole in the walls and take your keep. Defense is more than setting on a wall and waiting for the enemy to leave.

They are ment to be an object to force servers to fight each other. The walls are just there to slow the enemy down so the defenders have time to respond.

Then you might as well play spvp with capture points. I’m playing wvw because I want the objectives to matter.

5 people successful defending against 50 is not and should not be a game mechanic.

Then it should be. If the 50 men group just hammer their ba||s on the gate I just be able to repel then with a treb. If they go for proxy catas I should be able to do the same with carts on the wall. I consider these 2 approach more like ninja attacks and only successful if the enemies isn’t paying attention and is taken by surprise. Then the 50 men blob deserve the victory because no capable defender was around.

If on the other hand that 50 man blob knows that there are 5 capable defenders inside, then they should strategies and come up with catapults hidden behind a rock, trebs further away or even catas with chained bubbles.

If this change I’m proposing destroys your farming dream then they could leave EOTM and EBG like it is right now and only change the Borderlands.

At this point in the game I could care less about capping towers, keeps or ppt. The past 2 guilds that I’ve been in only ever attacked a tower or keep to try to force the other servers to group up and give us a fight, instead of constantly karma training on the other teams Bl. Of course we would respond call outs on our Bl to protect our stuff, but only because that was where the fight was.

The guild I was in for the first 2 years of the game spent all of there time guarding home Bl up grading towers and keeps and back capping enemy karma trains.

I can’t Remember the last time we have actually attacked an enemy tower to cap it for ppt. This is they way most wvw guilds operate. You turn wvw into a defensive game and the majority of people will leave, because that’s just not an enjoyable play type for most people.

I can’t Remember the last time we have actually attacked an enemy tower to cap it for ppt. This is they way most wvw guilds operate.

If this is what people want, then they might as well close WvW completely and change sPvP to allow 50vs50vs50 people, make a new map with some capture the flag objectives (they could use a compact version of EBG or even EOTM) and be done with it.

This will make everyone that like the playstyle you’re describing (and I know a lot of people that like this too) very very happy. Also arena.net no longer needs to put up with all our winning about WvW, because it’s basicaly sPvP (their beloved child that aims for Esports)

Lol, most WvW guilds operate on a screw-the-PPT basis? I think you may be living in a bubble…or maybe it’s just your server?

I use to think the same way you do, but I don’t anymore. Also I have no desire to go back to that play style. It’s just not fun.

It’s the same reason that they have a slam dunk contest at the NBA all star game, and not a rebounding contest. Or they have a home run derby, and not a fly ball catching contest. It’s not exciting, it’s not fun for most people.

Personally I’d love to see them add a gvg game type. I would gladly leave wvw and all of its broken mechanics and pve bullkitten. Then you could have you exciting 2 guys in a tower fight.

Ive been up and down the NA ladder and played against most servers, and since you enjoy defense I can suggest a few servers that tend to play good defense. BP has historical been a very good defensive server, some of the best seige placement and usage I’ve seen,also they know how to use seige as well. NSP are pretty good as well, this would be my server of choice to transfer to if I were to leave my server. Good peeps, good fights. Mag and SBI are very good defensively as well. I also hear YB is good, but I haven’t witnessed it personally. If you like defense that much maybe you could try one of them.

I’m doing fine on SoS, thanks. I hope you get your GvG gametype since you and many others are into that, but I also don’t want WvW to become a GvG gametype. Two very different modes, those are.

It’s actually pretty easy to defend now (assuming the structure in question is at least reinforced or fortified). ACs can be placed in a lot of spots that can’t be hit with AE to defend vs. catapults. If they put the catas out of AC range, you can usually counter cata/treb them. It actually favors the defenders IMO, but I guess that’s reasonable since it should be difficult to take an upgraded and actively defended structure.

ACs can be placed in a lot of spots that can’t be hit with AE to defend vs. catapults.

This is true only for maybe 1 or 2 walls for the entire objectives of EBG+BL combined. Most of the time your cart will get destroyed by meteor shower. Note “meteor shower” not regular aoe skills.

GG you troll hard bro

Catalin.5341:

ACs can be placed in a lot of spots that can’t be hit with AE to defend vs. catapults.

This is true only for maybe 1 or 2 walls for the entire objectives of EBG+BL combined. Most of the time your cart will get destroyed by meteor shower. Note “meteor shower” not regular aoe skills.

That’s not true at all.

There are key spots you can place where the newly adjusted LOS has been fixed and can successfully defend vs a blob.

You just have to know where to place it.

Lol I guess you guys haven’t watched my guides https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLduHbZPbtobHjIvdoZtd_99Y2ZFJpbFAx

Umm …. I’m sure ER and PS appreciate the effort you’ve have taken in providing them with an easy to use video guide to all your seige locations.

I have watched one of your videos, and you pretty much made our point — it’s pretty easy to defend right now. So why did you start a thread saying that it was almost impossible?

If you watch the video, you’ll see that there are several places where proxy catas can go down that can’t be hit by anything except an arrow cart that’s in range of meteor shower. Thus, 1 ele makes it impossible to destroy the catas.

If you watch the video, you’ll see that there are several places where proxy catas can go down that can’t be hit by anything except an arrow cart that’s in range of meteor shower.

If you know how to defend an objective you also know how to attack it. So if you know that there’s one wall that you can defend with a very good cart then you probably don’t want to attack one. For example Academy has the SE+E walls defended by a cart on those wall stairs, but the SW+W walls have very vulnerable carts where meteor shower will kill them.

So what do you do as an attacking commander? Attack SW/W when going for academy. Each tower/keep has vulnerable cart spots. This thread is about being able to defend your vulnerable walls too against proxy catas.

Again what you are suggesting is to make every tower and keep 100% Impenterable. That is still not acceptable game type for the majority of the people that play this game.

You keep ranting about making offenses be creative in their attacks, but at the same time you want to make it so the defenses don’t have to do the same. Hypocrital much? The game is already weighted toward defense. It doesn’t need to be weighted more toward defense. What you are suggesting is to make it easy mode for you and the game type you want to play, instead of adapting and over coming the challenges of the very narrow section of the game that you have forced yourself to play.

You must be misinterpreting our suggestion.

We don’t want to be able to 100% defend everything, we want to eliminate situations where we have a 0% chance to defend.

No, I’m pretty sure I’ve nailed your suggestion down perfectly.

Let’s look at Catalin last post where he says that the only vulnerable spot at the Academy is the SW/W walls. If you do something to eliminate this spot then there are no vulnerable spots at the Academy. Making this towers defense super easy, and would provide no challenge for the defenders.

You are purpose changes that in your words makes attacking a tower challenging, and then not expecting the defense of a tower to be challenging as well. You are purposing to bend the game directly toward your preferred play style. That’s very selfish.

dnt u think u ruined the game enough with your buffed ac’s and unbreakable walls? how about one guy just defending the whole bl by himself?

dnt u think u ruined the game enough with your buffed ac’s and unbreakable walls? how about one guy just defending the whole bl by himself?

Dude, you’re missing the point. They just need to make sPvP with 50vs50vs50 and shift delete WvW. They either focus on something or close it down.
Roamers want to duel, zergs wants to gvg or blob fight, scouts want to defend (myself included), farmers want to farm. We can’t all have the same slice of pie.

Catalin.5341:

dnt u think u ruined the game enough with your buffed ac’s and unbreakable walls? how about one guy just defending the whole bl by himself?

Dude, you’re missing the point. They just need to make sPvP with 50vs50vs50 and shift delete WvW. They either focus on something or close it down.
Roamers want to duel, zergs wants to gvg or blob fight, scouts want to defend (myself included), farmers want to farm. We can’t all have the same slice of pie.

Actually you can.

As a scout I can direct our zerg to the big fights. I do it with our guilds all the time. They know if I call out, they’ll accurately get a big fight. The roamers get the enemy stragglers, clean up flipped camps and sentries, duellers do their thing for 10 minutes, then join the map, and the farmers get their lewt by following the tag.

Remove any one of those from the equation and the other side suffers. Defense + zergs is a symbiotic relationship.

Everyone can (and should) have pie.

Catalin.5341:

Lol I guess you guys haven’t watched my guides https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLduHbZPbtobHjIvdoZtd_99Y2ZFJpbFAx

I’ve looked at it yes. I’ve found other solutions that work.

Bearded.6485:

No, I’m pretty sure I’ve nailed your suggestion down perfectly.

Let’s look at Catalin last post where he says that the only vulnerable spot at the Academy is the SW/W walls. If you do something to eliminate this spot then there are no vulnerable spots at the Academy. Making this towers defense super easy, and would provide no challenge for the defenders.

You are purpose changes that in your words makes attacking a tower challenging, and then not expecting the defense of a tower to be challenging as well. You are purposing to bend the game directly toward your preferred play style. That’s very selfish.

‘Vulnerable’ here refers to a place where there is no counter whatsoever. The whole tower is literally vulnerable, but the enemy comms will need to combine distance, cata bubbles and siege spacing to get the wall down if there’s no easymode wall where defenders have no recourse.

To fix defending they need to fix badge rewards. Have defending give badge of honor for kills or 5-10 when you finish a defend the keep event.

Have it so that killing an enemy commander’s attacking team that has a squad give 10 badges, 25 if it is 25+ enemy players.

Siege disablers are going to be a pain for defenders to buy with how badges are. Superior siege is expensive: trebs, acs, shield gens.

As far as defending:

Reinforced or fortified keeps on Desert Borderlands are harder to take actually. The amount of guards,turrets, and cannons and the sheer winding passages means if you have a defense team of a few you can hold off 15-20 people provided you have siege, didablers, supply traps, door trebs and the like. The air keep lord is also incredibly annoying to kill.

The amount of terrain for both towers and keeps on Desert BLs is such that there are spots for attack/defense that cannot be hit with enemy siege.

Right now one of the biggest problem with defense is you can portal to inner fire keep. It is stupidly easy.

As a scout I can direct our zerg to the big fights. I do it with our guilds all the time.

Then scouting is a wrong word for someone that is defending an objective. The proper word should be “defender”. What you describe is someone afk’ing in a tower/keep. When I do defending I upgrade (used to, now it’s auto), escort dolies, take nearest camp, build siege inside, repair gates/walls and of course call for help when needed.

The roamers get the enemy stragglers, clean up flipped camps and sentries, duellers do their thing for 10 minutes, then join the map, and the farmers get their lewt by following the tag.

So roamers always complain that new bl maps are too hard to find duels and there’s too much pve, barricades punish them etc.
Blobbers complain about the new bl map being to hard to learn and get quickly too objectives, no waypoints to move quick, lord too powerful, auto-upgrades too good for defense, fortified gates, etc.
Farmers always complain about the lack of rewards in wvw, no real purpose to farm even with the new skill points, map too hard to learn because of a lesser loot/hour ratio.
Defenders (scouts) complain about proxy catapults being too powerful, some complain about auto-upgrades (I don’t).
So arena.net must choose to which to cater to and focus on that. They seem to incline to the zerg population, but who knows.

he whole tower is literally vulnerable, but the enemy comms will need to combine distance, cata bubbles and siege spacing to get the wall down if there’s no easymode wall where defenders have no recourse.

No need for that. A smart commander will build a cart and destroy everything on the walls and continue to put pressure while the catapults do the work. What’s the downside for the commander: -40/50 supplies for the cart and a better coordination.

if you have a defense team of a few you can hold off 15-20 people provided you have siege, didablers, supply traps, door trebs and the like.

That’s what I’m trying to say. All that effort in the supply traps, door treb, upgrades etc, goes to wait when they kill your cart with meteor shower and use proxy catas.

Destroying defender’s AC/Treb with AC/Treb is fine, MeteorShowering down is not.
Why?
‘Cos building Siege requires gold, supply, time and/or people while MS only needs 1 ele and some time. (With more eles it’s faster, but you can do it alone.)

If the enemy builds counter-ac/treb, it’s siege wars. If he just rolls there with a randombignumber eles and makes every AC spot a suicide-spot, then it’s bad design, either map (f.e.: why no safe-spot for AC?) or skill (f.e.: why can siege be destroyed by normal skills?)

Don’t know which is better, but it’s something to think about, to discuss together with the Devs… okay, just joking :P

After almost a page of posts with everyone but 2 people agreeing that defense is over powered, you are still attempting to jam this topic down everyone’s throat. If this many people disagreed with me I might start to possibly think that I was wrong.

The worst part about this entire thread is the orgional poster started a topic complaining about defense not being feasible, then posted video evidence that proved he was was wrong and that most towers have very few weaknesses. This poster then proceeds to stomp his feet on his soap box because no one agrees with him. OMG delete wvw make 50v50v50 bobber guild ladder.

If you want to make seige only killable by it other seige, then make all seige have friendly fire. Why should a friendly treb be able to fire at a friendly door and not do damage. Or why should a defending force be able to fight inside cannon treb and a fire, while the attacking force has to be able to tank all that damage or move off and try to fight out of the damage.

The simple fact of this issue is. Defense of towers and keeps is already overpowered. Why do you think anet gave a reduction in door and wall hp shortly after they gave them a buff for Hot. All of this and we have 2 people who want to take the narrow section of this game they have decided to force themselves to play and take it from easy mode to super kittening easy mode.

Just talking EBG here:

Keeps are pretty fine although Red Keep should have access to their dome for siege placement.

Side keeps (Bravo, Langor, Jerri, Aldons, Veloka) are fine.

Non-side keeps (Ogre, Mendons, Anz, Klovan, WC, QL, Durios) should be beefed up with siege placement that cannot be easily AoE’d from walls since they all have very limited counter siege placement currently.