Guild Wars 2

Everyone still thinks you are supposed to maintain complete reign over their homeborder and as such people are complaining how they want to be able to have waypoints in all the keeps regardless of who owns it.
It seems people can’t handle adapting to the superior play-style of fighting over a 3rd of each map and pushing objectives near your 3rd of the zone.
If for example you are on blue team and goto the Red Desert Borderland, you should capture and maintain the keep and tower nearest spawn then work toward the next closest towers either pushing into the bottom green corner or pushing into the top red section.

The community can’t handle spending $100 each and get crap as return.

People can shoot thru walls – Not Fixed Since HOT
WvW Guild Upgrades are hidden behind PVE – Not Fixed since HoT
Walls skin glitching – Not Fixed since a month ago
—-list goes on, but these are top of mind at the moment—-

WvW Guild Claiming Auras – Only got fixed 2 weeks ago.
WvW Dailies – Only got fixed 3weeks ago.
—-i cant think of anything else they “fixed”, lol—-

I can handle change just fine, I am currently learning a whole new game that I am playing. I would still be playing WvW in GW2, but after 3 years of beating on that dead horse I moved on.

Khezekiah Bellamy.5016:

Everyone still thinks you are supposed to maintain complete reign over their homeborder and as such people are complaining how they want to be able to have waypoints in all the keeps regardless of who owns it.
It seems people can’t handle adapting to the superior play-style of fighting over a 3rd of each map and pushing objectives near your 3rd of the zone.
If for example you are on blue team and goto the Red Desert Borderland, you should capture and maintain the keep and tower nearest spawn then work toward the next closest towers either pushing into the bottom green corner or pushing into the top red section.

Inability to adapt to change has little to do with it for me. I wanted to like the new maps but I do not. They promote a game play I do not enjoy. I always played the ppt but what was really fun were the confrontations whether big or small.

Solo roaming in the new maps has been rather disappointing for me (granted lack of ppl also roaming like me really doesn’t help) and I really never liked any mechanics that help avoid fights like they added on all maps (why more stealth?!! WHY!!?).

Also, the map design they seemingly recuperated from EoTM that apparently make it impossible to go anywhere in a straight line kittenes me off to no end. As the asuras in DS say these days ‘everything is so close, yet so far’. The map is bigger, but a lot less free to move in and make me beg for my glider to enjoy (even if I do understand why they can’t permit gliders in a game with walls).

I didn’t had any chance to participate in any wvw beta otherwise I would have immediately tell them that going more and more toward an EoTM map design was a VERY bad move for a lot of players that enjoy confrontations. Maybe they thought, since guild halls were now introduced, that those like me that like fights would retreat into them and thus leave the wvw map for more pve/karma train/farm oriented players… IDK…

I tried and wanted to like it, but I just do not. It is as simple as that.

I would guess OP is either in one of the remaining active WvW guilds or a high population server (or both).

Let me point out what fighting on THREE maps means to a small group on a low population server… the new maps that you say provide a superior play style of fighting have divided our small team into three – or we have to give up on our “corner” in one or more maps if we want to have better numbers.

Before: Assume we have six dedicated defenders. I’m using six because that was roughly my experience, sometimes it was fewer, rarely more. On one map we used to roam around and scout and upgrade stuff, or sit in an objective and upgrade stuff. When an opposing group came into the map we rallied together to make our defense – six people could defend a keep or tower fairly well.

Now: Let’s say we still have six defenders who play. We don’t have anything to upgrade so there’s nothing constructive to pass the time while you wait – sentry duty is short fights with long spells of boredom in between. Who wants to play a game just to be bored? The six defenders either have to split between three maps – that’s only two players per map – or stay on one and give up two thirds of our territory. How is this situation superior?! Defenders are divided and attackers are complaining that there’s no defenders to fight – it’s obvious why!

Are you seriously saying that hitting a few buttons every half hour is the difference between boredom and being entertained?

Hitting buttons, you mean like playing the game? Nah that’s not more entertaining.

Deso is the top server now but borders are totaly empty (maybe a guild karma training) and there is a short q on eb or no q at all. Only 1 commander or no commander.
This is prime time. Image aftr and befor that

Khezekiah Bellamy.5016:

Everyone still thinks you are supposed to maintain complete reign over their homeborder and as such people are complaining how they want to be able to have waypoints in all the keeps regardless of who owns it.
It seems people can’t handle adapting to the superior play-style of fighting over a 3rd of each map and pushing objectives near your 3rd of the zone.
If for example you are on blue team and goto the Red Desert Borderland, you should capture and maintain the keep and tower nearest spawn then work toward the next closest towers either pushing into the bottom green corner or pushing into the top red section.

Do you expect to get a job as change manager somewhere? Accept it, the new maps are just terrible. Terrible…it is.

1-No reason to defend anything because it upgrades itself at no cost.
2-Solo roaming just isn’t viable and has no impact on the matchup.
3-The maps are “hard” to traverse but a pain in the kitten no one enjoys.
4-It’s pushed most servers to play only on EB which is getting extremely boring.
5-Home border defense community is dead and we had a great one with 15 people on all the time having fun with so much to do and coordinate, that’s now totally gone, see point 1.
6-A long list of bugs, glitches and simple stuff that has not been addressed, fixed or even acknowledged.

Alot of these problems can be fixed with some simple changes to allow every server easy travel across the map by opening up the waypoints in Fire, Air and Earth keep if you control it and upgrade it, bring back the old upgrade system using badges or gold and get rid of the centre map event and make it a viable area for guilds to GvG (i hate guilds myself but it’s unfair not to give them something they might want).

We’re not allergic to change we just don’t like change for changes sake.

Gromit nailed it there, for me at least. +100

We are actually loving the new maps.
Solo roaming isn’t dead – easier to avoid blobs and small groups. Sure, it’s harder to find another roamer, but if you are both of the same mindset, you’ll find each other and have a blast. There won’t be much interference in your solo fights.

Many guilds are still doing PVE stuff to upgrade their guild halls. But slowly but surely they are returning to the maps.

I believe one thing is true though – people don’t like change. And the maps were a huge change. Hard to learn how to traverse. But once you learn the paths it’ll be just like old times. I’m sure many a tag lead his/her zerg off a cliff in the old BLs. The new ones just have more cliffs.

So basically learn the new maps and you’ll start to enjoy them more. Step out of your EBG safe zone.

Heibi.4251:

Hard to learn how to traverse. But once you learn the paths it’ll be just like old times.

No, it really wont. Just look at the game as a whole.

You know Queensdale right? Probably all of us have been there, for many of us the first real zone we see (first char ever was a human in the beta, of course).

Now go to Tangled Depths and tell me – will this ever feel just like good old Queensdale? Even after you learned all the paths?

Desert is not alpine. Its never going to be.

Khezekiah Bellamy.5016:

Everyone still thinks you are supposed to maintain complete reign over their homeborder and as such people are complaining how they want to be able to have waypoints in all the keeps regardless of who owns it.
It seems people can’t handle adapting to the superior play-style of fighting over a 3rd of each map and pushing objectives near your 3rd of the zone.
If for example you are on blue team and goto the Red Desert Borderland, you should capture and maintain the keep and tower nearest spawn then work toward the next closest towers either pushing into the bottom green corner or pushing into the top red section.

regarding your topic title….

not sure about others but not for me.
the problem with the new borderland is that it is really big, bigger than the old borderland. the fact that anet even moved the tower wp into the keep already show that they understand that it is really big.

anet did not design the borderland with a understanding of the reality, they simply want something “cool” but being "cool and “practical” are really different. honestly, i don’t mind if they make a bigger maps but on the conditions that more people are allowed into the map and provided that these servers actually have the people to sustain those map size. i don’t even mind they remove all the wvw maps and merge it into one massive map while increasing the map pop but they cant do that due to technical limitation or should i say, poor optimization.

tldr: basically, the changes must be practical but anet obviously did not factor in that when making those changes.

Sure, its pretty clear that Anet dropped the concept of “home” borders whether they realize it or not. Why I’m not sure, but anyone who’s arguing that is in denial. However, you now have to split your BL team across 3 maps to maintain the PPT that was previously achievable on your home border. This only does more damage to already suffering lower tier servers.

And what Yuffi and GROMMIT said.

Nah they havent dropped the idea of home BLs. They are just doing what everyone asked in the normal twisted Anet way. They are getting the Desert BL ready so they can replace EB with it. And then bring back the Alpine maps. And then they will be all, ’ we did what you asked! You said you wanted alpine back!’

Heibi.4251:

We are actually loving the new maps.
Solo roaming isn’t dead – easier to avoid blobs and small groups. Sure, it’s harder to find another roamer, but if you are both of the same mindset, you’ll find each other and have a blast. There won’t be much interference in your solo fights.

Many guilds are still doing PVE stuff to upgrade their guild halls. But slowly but surely they are returning to the maps.

I believe one thing is true though – people don’t like change. And the maps were a huge change. Hard to learn how to traverse. But once you learn the paths it’ll be just like old times. I’m sure many a tag lead his/her zerg off a cliff in the old BLs. The new ones just have more cliffs.

So basically learn the new maps and you’ll start to enjoy them more. Step out of your EBG safe zone.

I’m sorry but you seem to like talking for more than yourself. “We” are NOT actually loving the new map. YOU maybe, but who is this “we” you speak of? It sure as hell doesn’t include me as well as many others for sure going by what can be read here and heard around me.

Yes, many guilds are still on pve and it is logical that many will return to wvw once they are done there but at what cost? My main occupation in gw2 was WvW and in it’s current state I won’t endure it much longer to be perfectly honest. Also, it changes nothing to the map design that I hate for the same reasons I hate EoTM since day one. That we never really lack pop on EoTM didn’t made me love it.

I too know every human is resistant to change but to be fair this goes way beyond that here. Stating that it is the reason behind all the protest sounds more like a poor excuse than anything close to an explanation. There are many good reasons given as to why people do not like the new BL that has nothing to do with change and everything to do with the play-style they enjoy.

I’m a jumping puzzle lover that adore TD’s map and I did try to love EoTM since it exist and the new maps. But the fact of the matter is, I hate traveling in the new maps. They are a pain for me. Not because they are difficult to travel, but because they are annoying as kitten to roam around. I sure as hell “stepped out of my EBG safe zone to try it” but I never could so please refrain from lumping everyone in that lazy “overly conservative” basket of your when ppl express their legitimate dislike. Again, speak for yourself.

GROMIT.7829:

1-No reason to defend anything because it upgrades itself at no cost.
2-Solo roaming just isn’t viable and has no impact on the matchup.
3-The maps are “hard” to traverse but a pain in the kitten no one enjoys.
4-It’s pushed most servers to play only on EB which is getting extremely boring.
5-Home border defense community is dead and we had a great one with 15 people on all the time having fun with so much to do and coordinate, that’s now totally gone, see point 1.
6-A long list of bugs, glitches and simple stuff that has not been addressed, fixed or even acknowledged.

Alot of these problems can be fixed with some simple changes to allow every server easy travel across the map by opening up the waypoints in Fire, Air and Earth keep if you control it and upgrade it, bring back the old upgrade system using badges or gold and get rid of the centre map event and make it a viable area for guilds to GvG (i hate guilds myself but it’s unfair not to give them something they might want).

We’re not allergic to change we just don’t like change for changes sake.

1. Defending things wasn’t about the money you put into it but the time it took for it to upgrade. Saving it meant that it retained higher tier defenses and w/e siege you had in it. Auto-Upgrades eliminate the lack of response that paper objectives got because, since they could just be re-flipped, there was no point in defending them.

2. With the changes to scoring that make camps the highest PPT objectives on the map, solo roaming is more important than ever. Harassing enemy supply lines is more impactful than taking their walled objectives. Specifically, if one accounts for the +3 points from yaks finishing their routes, NEC, NWC, SEC and SWC are worth ~38 PPT. NC is worth 50 PPT. Since yaks respawn right after their route, this gets better with swiftness and/or the Speedy Yaks upgrade. It gets worse if yaks are crippled by a hostile sentry.
Also, flipping sentries so that enemies can’t see large zerg movements is amazingly effective.

3. It takes about 3 minutes to walk from spawn to anywhere on the map, depending on what structures you own and such. It’s not even that hard, honestly. Some people had it figured out day one. If this is a problem for you, there are several videos that can show you how to get around.

4. There are many things you can blame Anet for. Player choice isn’t one of them.

5. See point 4.

6. Some bugs have been fixed, others acknowledged. It’s slow, slower than I’d like, but we haven’t been totally abandoned.

Even if easily traversed, the map is difficult to fight on.

That and small groups get punished with over-buffed PvE elements.

I wouldnt say that I cannot handle changes. Many things Anet changed were actually good and enhanced the character of WvW. I like that Dolyaks are (more or less) invulnerable if they are acompanied by a player. I hated it before when a thief came (stealthed) critted the dolyak and ran away. Now the thief has to kill me first, then the dolyak. It makes sense to defend it!
Another advantage are the auto-upgrades. We voiced a lot because some “stupid” person started an upgrade or started the wrong upgrade. Of course, there were some trolls as well who just had fun with burning all supplies. This was made a lot harder now! However, what I admit is that the auto-upgrades need to worked over again. Especially in the area of another server, they should be made slower. But also camps upgrade too fast. I barely see a dolyak alone on the road.
A third advantage is that it became difficult to flip a camp, a tower, a keep or even sm alone. It was pretty annoying when there was a (stealthed) thief remaining who flipped the keeps/towers back as soon as the lord was vulnerable. It also fought the hacking problem. Why should a single person hack himself into a tower when he cant flip it himself?

Nevertheless, all these positive points do not hide that some things went wrong. Mainly, there is an imbalance between defence and offence towards the defence direction. This gets most obvious at the new bls. It is too easy to defend a keep alone or with 1 or 2 other players.
Another problem is that the maps are too large (or the players too slow). If you get killed somewhere on the map and respawn, it gets hard to catch up with the remaining players.

I believe if the two negative points get cleared, the borderlands will attract more players.

One more personal remark: WvW means world versus world. I say it and I like to stress it when I see duells in WvW. The driver of WvW are the large scale fights and the tactics on greater level where many players have to work together. I fully understand that people like challenging themselves with others e.g. in a duell. However, I think this is rather something for Player versus Player (PvP). Maybe one option could be that Anet implements a 1v1 in PvP. The same is true from my perspective for GvG. I think it would be nice if Anet could implement a GvG-map in PvP. However, WvW has different mechanics and (what is more important) different aims. I would like to stress that I dont have a problem with these two forms of challenges. However, I do have a problem where they dont belong to!

Chiccotot.7296:

The community can’t handle spending $100 each and get crap as return.

Who sold you HoT for $100? You got ripped off.

Chiccotot.7296:

People can shoot thru walls – Not Fixed Since HOT
WvW Guild Upgrades are hidden behind PVE – Not Fixed since HoT
Walls skin glitching – Not Fixed since a month ago
—list goes on, but these are top of mind at the moment—

Because that’s all there is…

Chiccotot.7296:

WvW Guild Claiming Auras – Only got fixed 2 weeks ago.
WvW Dailies – Only got fixed 3weeks ago.
—i cant think of anything else they “fixed”, lol—

“LOL Unless they fix bugs THE EXACT SECOND they release an update, I’m enraged. WE PAID 1,000 DOLLARS EACH FOR THIS EXPANSION AND THERE’S AT NO TIME, NOT EVEN 1 MOMENT WHERE I’M ENTERTAINED!!!!”

Kam.8109:

Chiccotot.7296:

The community can’t handle spending $100 each and get crap as return.

Who sold you HoT for $100? You got ripped off.

Chiccotot.7296:

People can shoot thru walls – Not Fixed Since HOT
WvW Guild Upgrades are hidden behind PVE – Not Fixed since HoT
Walls skin glitching – Not Fixed since a month ago
—list goes on, but these are top of mind at the moment—

Because that’s all there is…

Chiccotot.7296:

WvW Guild Claiming Auras – Only got fixed 2 weeks ago.
WvW Dailies – Only got fixed 3weeks ago.
—i cant think of anything else they “fixed”, lol—

“LOL Unless they fix bugs THE EXACT SECOND they release an update, I’m enraged. WE PAID 1,000 DOLLARS EACH FOR THIS EXPANSION AND THERE’S AT NO TIME, NOT EVEN 1 MOMENT WHERE I’M ENTERTAINED!!!!”

@Kam.8109, Anet needs to employ some of those minority report precogs to get updates that faster…

And by saying “WvW” people expect everything handled free, if players need to dedicate for something they QQ.. what a community…. i just lol, if they need effort to kill a target is unbalanced while real unbalanced classes people say are ment to play that way…

@Chiccotot.7296:, YES u need to play to get your stuff unlocked un your GH, say what u dont like with manners.

What else? ..Skrit community….Anet your game is still do hard….

Aeolus.3615:

Kam.8109:

Chiccotot.7296:

The community can’t handle spending $100 each and get crap as return.

Who sold you HoT for $100? You got ripped off.

Chiccotot.7296:

People can shoot thru walls – Not Fixed Since HOT
WvW Guild Upgrades are hidden behind PVE – Not Fixed since HoT
Walls skin glitching – Not Fixed since a month ago
—list goes on, but these are top of mind at the moment—

Because that’s all there is…

Chiccotot.7296:

WvW Guild Claiming Auras – Only got fixed 2 weeks ago.
WvW Dailies – Only got fixed 3weeks ago.
—i cant think of anything else they “fixed”, lol—

“LOL Unless they fix bugs THE EXACT SECOND they release an update, I’m enraged. WE PAID 1,000 DOLLARS EACH FOR THIS EXPANSION AND THERE’S AT NO TIME, NOT EVEN 1 MOMENT WHERE I’M ENTERTAINED!!!!”

@Kam.8109, Anet needs to employ some of those minority report precogs to get updates that faster…

And by saying “WvW” people expect everything handled free, if players need to dedicate for something they QQ.. what a community…. i just lol, if they need effort to kill a target is unbalanced while real unbalanced classes people say are ment to play that way…

@Chiccotot.7296:, YES u need to play to get your stuff unlocked un your GH, say what u dont like with manners.

What else? ..Skrit community….Anet your game is still do hard….

True you have to play to unlock what you have. Well unlock what you have, until they take it away and make you unlock it again.

Change is such a loaded word sometimes.

For WvW players… HoT = NGE

Heibi.4251:

Many guilds are still doing PVE stuff to upgrade their guild halls. But slowly but surely they are returning to the maps.

lol

Please change title to:

The community can’t handle change that they said was a terrible idea and never asked for in the first place!

We do need a new map, but not this pve one!

Bad change are still uhm you know bad.

Reasons to split your home territory across 3 maps:

• More waypoints
• “Your stuff” is always a short run from a waypoint with no barricades in the way.
• You can watch “something of yours” while you actively assault enemy territory.
• The supply and upgrades on your structures can be used to take more enemy territory.
• You are more likely to try and take extra territory, when feasible.

Reasons to defend your entire home bl map:

• That’s how many people think
• Easier communication
• Easier tracking of enemy activity
• Easier to know what allies are doing
• You can keep one eye on all your other stuff while taking something back.
• 6 people on 1 map can take towers and keeps easier than 2-3 people on each map.
• 6 people doing the oasis event every 3 hours… is doable. 2-3 people doing the oasis event on a different map every hour…. is not fun.
• Getting anywhere on the map from Earth Keep waypoint is simpler and often faster than trying to get somewhere from a side keep waypoint.
• Holding everything around a camp generates more points than holding a camp and only half the stuff around it.

Dawdler.8521:

Heibi.4251:

Hard to learn how to traverse. But once you learn the paths it’ll be just like old times.

No, it really wont. Just look at the game as a whole.

You know Queensdale right? Probably all of us have been there, for many of us the first real zone we see (first char ever was a human in the beta, of course).

Now go to Tangled Depths and tell me – will this ever feel just like good old Queensdale? Even after you learned all the paths?

Desert is not alpine. Its never going to be.

Queensdale is “starting”. Tangled Depths is advanced. Big difference. You can’t compare them.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Heibi.4251:

We are actually loving the new maps.
Solo roaming isn’t dead – easier to avoid blobs and small groups. Sure, it’s harder to find another roamer, but if you are both of the same mindset, you’ll find each other and have a blast. There won’t be much interference in your solo fights.

Many guilds are still doing PVE stuff to upgrade their guild halls. But slowly but surely they are returning to the maps.

I believe one thing is true though – people don’t like change. And the maps were a huge change. Hard to learn how to traverse. But once you learn the paths it’ll be just like old times. I’m sure many a tag lead his/her zerg off a cliff in the old BLs. The new ones just have more cliffs.

So basically learn the new maps and you’ll start to enjoy them more. Step out of your EBG safe zone.

I’m sorry but you seem to like talking for more than yourself. “We” are NOT actually loving the new map. YOU maybe, but who is this “we” you speak of? It sure as hell doesn’t include me as well as many others for sure going by what can be read here and heard around me.
Again, speak for yourself.

I speak for many guilds that love the new maps. That includes hundreds of people, friends, guild mates, etc. So it is “WE” love the new maps. And since I don’t know you, obviously it doesn’t include you. You sure take things way too literally. Step back, stretch your fingers and toes, take a deep breath, and relax. Then you’ll know I wasn’t speaking for “you” specifically.

Heh, “The Community Can’t Handle Change” is such a poor title.

How about, “The Community Doesn’t Like This Change.”?

Now to be perfectly honest it’s more like, “Many in the Community Don’t Like This Change.”, but that’s beside the point.

My only real beefs with the new map are that
1. it seems too big, because there’s alot of emptiness.
2. taking structures really doesn’t put you in a strategically stronger position on the map so everything feels very separated from everything else.
3. we certainly didn’t need so much PvE.

What would make this map better, imo, is really pretty simple.
1. put something tangible in treb range of the keeps to have some strategy to the siege warfare. Something that the home team would really really hate to have the opposing servers in control of.
2. Put the shrines inside of towers so that the towers are actually valuable for more than simple PPT.
3. If we have to have an event in the middle make it less of a collect this to do that, and make it like a super cannon similar to the statuary cannon in EotM. Something that people can and will fight over.

It’s not that hard to placate most WvWers. Give us something to fight over, give us a good reason to PPT, and give us the tools to make it meaningful.

Aeolus.3615:

@Chiccotot.7296:, YES u need to play to get your stuff unlocked un your GH, say what u dont like with manners.

We’ve already unlocked them before. We have to unlock them again… this is whats effed up so much is cause ANET promised that guilds wont lose anything.

Simple point to consider:

PvP Upgrades need you to farm PVP Potions = well and good
PvE Upgrades need you to farm PvE Stuff = okay cool
WvW Upgrades need you to farm WvW Things? = guess no anet logic has been seen in this part of HoT release.

Community handles change fine, when it is something they find enjoyable. Change that players do not find enjoyable= time to find a new game that is enjoyable since they broke that one. If it isn’t fun why waste your time doing it? Life is too short to spend it doing something unenjoyable.

I think sometimes they forget that players play games to have FUN.

Anet can’t handle the community’s wishes

Players have embraced many of the HoT changes including the new elites, veteran scout changes, the new class, new siege, removal of upgrade costs, guard stack removal, wvw ability changes/costs, new commander UI, precursor crafting, etc.

The problem is many of us hate the new map for a variety of reasons, think losing our earned guild abilities sucks, having to PvE a ton to get WvW guild abilities we already earned was short sighted, the auto-upgrade needs work and the siege cost changes overly nerfed solo/small group play.

I think if they rolled back some of the changes, HoT would be considered a success. Unfortunately the bumps on HoT feel more like malignant tumors and the silence from ANet is compounding the problem.

In short, no. Read here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/The-Plight-of-Dedicated-WvWvW-Guilds/first#post5856314

On this note: “It seems people can’t handle adapting to the superior play-style of fighting over a 3rd of each map and pushing objectives near your 3rd of the zone.
If for example you are on blue team and goto the Red Desert Borderland, you should capture and maintain the keep and tower nearest spawn then work toward the next closest towers ei/ther pushing into the bottom green corner or pushing into the top red section.”

This is exactly how the Alpine maps work and how all dedicated guilds played the map. This is how we currently play the new map. We’re not enjoying it.