Guild Wars 2

The whole point of PPT is to match servers with similar populations, not to be a competitive scoring system. PPT play hasn’t died, it was never alive to begin with.

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Dude PPT is broken in EU too, away with your NA nonsense. BG or whoever stacking or not has no effect on why games are decided by saturday in EU as well.[/quote]

DUDE thank you for reinforcing my point exactly.

IT was not any one server that caused this issue.

warriorjrd.8695:

All of his points went completely over your head. As soon as you see the word GvG your brain seems to turn off.

If GvG was introduced then people wouldn’t be doing GvG’s in wvw anymore, which means the only reason to play WvW would be to play PPT. Right now there’s a split in the community between those who play for points and those who play for fights. If you take away the fighters and give them their own mode, then WvW becomes purely PPTers.

You saw the term GvG and decided that you would give an opinion on it that nobody cares about. If GvG had it’s own gamemode, everybody would be happy. I don’t see why that is so hard for you to understand.

I’ll admit I did overreact. That being said, even when re-reading, it wasn’t clear (to me at least) that what was said had to mean what you just explained here. Past posts on the matter as well as the attitude of many, here and in the game, has indeed left a bad taste in my mouth. Too many simply don’t care about others as long as they get what they want. But be sure to respect them though… but here it appear I was wrong.

Back to the point, sadly, I don’t see any of this being a solution to the current problem. Yes, the community is divided but GvG was always extremely marginal all things considered. The people talking about it here sometime seem to think only they exist but the reality of the matter is that GvG players in GW2 are a minority. The effect of removing something that is already supposed to be mainly happening inside OS or as a fringe event should at best be minimal. I hope you guys do get your playground, but I see nothing helping WvW in any meaningful ways. At best it’s yet another “let’s promote GvG” opportunity by beating a very dead horse.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

warriorjrd.8695:

All of his points went completely over your head. As soon as you see the word GvG your brain seems to turn off.

If GvG was introduced then people wouldn’t be doing GvG’s in wvw anymore, which means the only reason to play WvW would be to play PPT. Right now there’s a split in the community between those who play for points and those who play for fights. If you take away the fighters and give them their own mode, then WvW becomes purely PPTers.

You saw the term GvG and decided that you would give an opinion on it that nobody cares about. If GvG had it’s own gamemode, everybody would be happy. I don’t see why that is so hard for you to understand.

I’ll admit I did overreact. That being said, even when re-reading, it wasn’t clear (to me at least) that what was said had to mean what you just explained here. Past posts on the matter as well as the attitude of many, here and in the game, has indeed left a bad taste in my mouth. Too many simply don’t care about others as long as they get what they want. But be sure to respect them though… but here it appear I was wrong.

Back to the point, sadly, I don’t see any of this being a solution to the current problem. Yes, the community is divided but GvG was always extremely marginal all things considered. The people talking about it here sometime seem to think only they exist but the reality of the matter is that GvG players in GW2 are a minority. The effect of removing something that is already supposed to be mainly happening inside OS or as a fringe event should at best be minimal. I hope you guys do get your playground, but I see nothing helping WvW in any meaningful ways. At best it’s yet another “let’s promote GvG” opportunity by beating a very dead horse.

It’s not just GvG, it’s the playing for fights instead of PPT game play the majority have adopted. You can say GvGers are in the minority, and I can agree with that. However, I can say that there are more people that play for fights more than PPT ( at least in EU) and that doesn’t mean GvG. Give a game mode that will be based on fights, as opposed to a PPT mechanic, and the fighters can get their fights, and the PPTers can get their PPT.

everyone knows T1 is a purgatory

It is sad to see almost 2 years of work and organization finally fall, no matter how salty some people are about it.

So here are a summary of points

• NA and EU are both suffering from PPT inertia
• Server overstacking causes the enemies to focus less on PPT since PPT is a number game
• Anet has not done anything substantial to reduce the focus on PPT in WvW. This has not changed in the last 2 years
• Population of this game is dwindling badly
• There are some variations between EU and NA Tier 1
• Tier 1 is a crapazoid tier
• No one can truly agree on what course to take.
• Fuzz rockz and we love him

Why is the blame is on BG? As a former member of JQ i can honestly say a lot of people have left your server because of how toxic and rude the players there are. Now this might have changed, i haven’t been on JQ since the day after Season 2 ended, but trying fixing your own server before blaming others.

T1 has been noticeably quieter. Even on reset nights, it’s rare to see full queues across all BL’s now. However, I’m not sure how much of that is due to burn out after Season 3 and everybody piling into the Labyrinth for easy farming. And of course, now that LS2 has restarted, everybody and their Mini Tequatl has rushed into the Silverwastes for the new content.

TC will endure. I’m certain of that. The core nucleus of our players are comprised of roleplayers and (if I may brag a bit) a more refined, tolerant class of PvE players. We will never, ever leave the server, and a proportion of this core base will continue to do WvW (if only for the dailies, if nothing else). We may one day fall from the T1 ranks, but we will never completely implode.

Great post Xeeron.9254
We are in era of “no one cares about PPT”.

Lauri.1342:

We are in era of “no one cares about PPT”.

This is a good thing. The PPT metric is not working and playing for PPT only causes burnout and boredom. People who claim to play for PPT rarely tag up and lead for hours on end trying to maintain or gain PPT. Commanders who have been there and done that have much more fun commanding combat and look for fights.

PPK needs to be introduced sooner and must not count when siege damage is involved. Only pure player vs player. It would still favour the bigger server, but it means that if the smaller server is really good at zerging and fighting, they could get a serious edge.

I don’t think it is as bad as the OP makes it out to be, though I agree somewhat. To some extent this occurs when a server can dominate the other servers or alternatively when a server is weaker. So people focus on other things.

But without PPT, what replaces it? The problem is without some focus on PPT, people never upgrade anything, never rebuild anything. Who cares if you snipe a yak or defend a supply camp? Why rush to defend an upgraded tower? If there is no connection with your teammates and your server, you may as well stand in the middle of a field and have a GvG. And that gets really stale after a while.

If one team plays for PPT and the other doesn’t, odd things can happen. BG group sets up kittenomewhere, JQ group rushes out and destroys catas but gets wiped. BG claims victory since they won the fight while JQ claims victory because they destroyed the catas. Without some focus on PPT, it’s as if the 2 groups are playing different games.

PPT and competitive games are great.. now if the gamemode, balance and maps would support this.

iow. Stacking is for the weak and for the ultra competitive ones that don’t care about the how just about the reward and chest slapping. ( NA way of thinking tbh)

If only anet could create a WvW balancing system where every server can be equally matched and forced to play outside of the PPT model as it is.

It really is too bad that not one mechanic can be introduced that does not favor numbers.

I mean , there could be certain things implemented that would have solved or at least made population imbalance less of a deciding factor.

Favoring numbers:

-Points per kill still favors numbers and would probably lock up small population servers. (unless you change the way these kill points are gained, see below)
-Removing swords is the same deal, now there is no way of telling what is on the way to capture a keep unless you have a population that can afford 5 people to scout.
Most times those 5 people are needed to hold back the tidal wave of zerglings.
Siegerazer, favors the more populated servers, some can’t muster even 10 players , others can, then set off siegerazer and force the opponent to choose what tower of keep they are going to lose regardless.
-Upgrade system, favors the numbers. a blob can simply rush defensive upgrades and not worry about anyone taking their keep,tower because , what are 5 people gonna do vs 10 manning ac’s and cannons.
-Siege in general, numbers = supps = supps is siege = siege is win.
-Siege disabler + population = camps, camps = siege, siege = disabler and traps, and considering you can spam siege disabler indefinitely as long as you have supplies.
-The outmanned buff, since out manned is a big sign that means rush for anything since they don’t have the numbers.
-Upgrading camps, again. upgrades are great, more defense , making it harder for roamers to capture it while the zerglings simply blast trough it.
-No bannering the lord anymore, no more chance to hold out for reinforcements that you drain from all other maps to have a fighting chance.
-Supply traps, 5 people set it off = immediately a failed attempt to build siege, zerglings are oh well we still have 20 people in the back with supplies.
-Conditions, AoE cap etc etc .. all favor numbers.
-Ruins , numbers get it and numbers get op trough it.
-Maps and Eotm, the maps are also not favoring smaller groups, imagine 10 ppl at lake and your group of 5 has to defend it without way points.
-Eotm, zergs win the day, the map is too big, the distance too far and nothing can be done solo.
-Combat 2v1 = generally a lose, despite skill as long as one of the 2 brings some ranged zerkbuild.
-Reward system, doesn’t help much either.. zerg to tag and get karma. playing into the hands of numbers again.
-Guardiortrains, if you have one and your opponent doesn’t it’s face roll despite the amount of squishies the opponent has.
add: Boons vs boonhate vs direct damage vs conditions vs cleanse. Buffs and direct damage wins 10/10 times.
-The only thing that helps small groups in WvW are sentries because they break up the zerglings for a short period of time.. unless trhe commander is a zergling too.
-Mercenaries, 5 minutes to capture Orgers as a small group being harassed by maybe 2 enemies. 20 seconds as zerg, harassment is nonexistent.
etc etc etc.

The problem with population imbalance has been obvious since launch, and the only excuse i can think off why there hasn’t been any progress made in fixing this is a “because”. The "because’ is simply that WvW population shouldn’t be balanced.
If that is the reason..then why bother creating this game mode at all.
So the main reason why WvW keeps on disappointing the people who don’t or can’t run as zerglings is simple because it uses to the same mechanic that the PvE Dev’s tried to extinguish from big world events.
press 1 without thinking.
Pve has got the destruction of LA event, the 1st event that managed to keep people interested because it depended on different factors (splitting the zerg) and a solo roamer could actually make a huge difference in that event.
Please take the philosophy of this event and implement it in WvW it really needs it.
I mean i wouldn’t mind escorting a group of villagers to safety in WvW.

Continued

Solution:

-Points per kill accumulate and at a cap you get a reward chest.
-Remove rewards from lord kills and tower capture instead have the area around a objective reward double loot/server points per kill to the server that owns that objective. ( server buff) and double loot points
-The buff that rewards the double points per kill is granted trough capturing the ruins , holding 2 towers or holding 4 camps or 1 keep. (math)
-Siegerazer v 2.0
Instead of breakout events, have repair and upgrade events.
-Guild an npc from north camp to objective of your choosing (trough npc selection screen) and paying a gold fee.
This npc scales according to the amount of people guiding and attacking. (may grand buffs)
-Villager break out event. Guide 10-20 villagers from camps to towers or keeps to repair.
They will instantly trow their supplies in a designated keeps supply depot, or wall. (These npc’s will drop loot on the ground) and make for an excellent farm for both sides. these villagers fight back (sorta) and run at normal speed.
-UI messages concerning keeps. “someone has killed the guards at watergate” 30 secs after all guards are killed.
-Remove (or rework) sentries and add something that contributes to the experience.
Sentries now show numbers and opponent dot’s on the minimap.
-Interactive, communicative minimap and UI.
-Rework outmanned buff to only show for defending servers adding some defensive buffs to it might give the buff some purpose. (rework)
-Remove pve camps and mercenaries or make it something worth wile, remove bosses that add nothing to WvW.
-Balance servers on WvW population not on pve numbers and adjust transfer price accordingly. (I wish i could hop servers for WvW but not have it cost me an arm and a leg just to see if it suits me.)
-Stop AA spam for tags trough rewarding stomps over tags.

Rant:
-Guardiortrains and stacking damage, adding a light aura only added to the drama that it is already.
(Last time i checked the necromancer should be applying tons of weakness.
yet you reverted the guardian retal nerf with this aura that only caters to melee.
making the buff that individual players can produce completely insignificant.
Add some real boonhate something that should have been done 2 years ago= rant)

TLDR; stuff that fixes stuff after naming the stuff that needs stuff to fix stuff.

I truly enjoyed your post. It is very well written. The one thing i would like to offer is that WvW can be very enjoyable outside of PPT. The score can be seen as important or it can be ignored completely. Nothing wrong with either view. If a server wins 12 weeks in a row but now one is having any fun then I would consider that a loss. I think this is an excellent chance for guilds to start even more cross-server communications to coordinate more GvG. GvG or WvW Olympics could be a fun idea. Sentry Ring KO duels where stability isn’t allowed to be used. Same could be done with the JP area. Not just fights but coordinating events like timed assaults where 1 guild defends a keep while another tries to break in. The guild that does this in the shortest amount of time wins. Restrictions on food and utility buffs and player counts and supply runs and whether or not anyone from the assaulting team is allowed to kill a defender or defending siege could make this extremely entertaining. These may all be silly ideas but the point is the framework, foundations, etc… is already set up to play in numerous ways outside of PPT only.

We could look to Anet for fixes or we could just fix it ourselves by designing our own events.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I’ve done basically nothing but WvW for over a year, starting in Jade Quarry NA and now on Seafarer’s Rest EU, both T1 servers. Can’t say I see it dying at all, really. I don’t know why there are always threads like this popping up. I wouldn’t consider WvW to be dead or dying until a blob is classified as 10 – 20 people, then we should be worried. But as is, servers will field 50 – 70 people at peak hours and the maps are still pretty active at off-hours as well. Sure, sometimes things will get a bit slow, like this past Halloween on T1 EU where Deso and Jade Sea had like 5 people tops in EBG, but that’s just the nature of things. Some PvE content comes out, people want to get their golds and achievements, then things pick up again.

Anyway, sorry, I don’t see it. I think WvW is just fine and maybe T1 isn’t as active as it used to be but I think you can save the obituaries for a later date.

What are you even talking about?

Yeah blobs are still big, 50+ players. However, the difference between now and a year or more ago is the frequency of the blobs, or just fights in general. A year ago a T1/2 server would have a ‘blob’ presence on at least 2 maps during primetime, probably 3 or 4 maps. These days, you’re more likely to see just 1 blob hopping around all the maps, and that only during primetime.

For season 3 I was on Kodash, T1 EU. Do you know how long the queues were just 3 hours after the season started? It’s a trick question, because there were no queues. Are you honestly saying that that’s the same as a year ago, where even during off-season a T1 server would have queues of 50+ on all maps on just a regular night?

I remember we used to do dolyak parades around the map at the end of the week, and have parties up at north camp, because each week felt like an experience to be celebrated. That was back in 2012, start of 2013. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those for more than a year now.

Of course WvW isn’t “dead”, as long as anyone logs into the game it isn’t dead. But don’t try to pretend that the current state of WvW isn’t a pale mockery of what it was 18 months ago.

Zaxares.5419:

We may one day fall from the T1 ranks, but we will never completely implode.

I heard that from SoR once… Now they are on their way to T8 with basically nothing left…

Samis.1750:

But without PPT, what replaces it? The problem is without some focus on PPT, people never upgrade anything, never rebuild anything. Who cares if you snipe a yak or defend a supply camp? Why rush to defend an upgraded tower? If there is no connection with your teammates and your server, you may as well stand in the middle of a field and have a GvG. And that gets really stale after a while.

^^^ this right here

I like fights. If I cant find any fights I get bored and log off. But I also like playing for ppt to a degree. I want to participate with my server mates for a unified goal, to take objectives we dont have and defend what we do. I dont care what the score is or who wins the week but I enjoy the purpose it gives and server unity and camaraderie that result from working together.

Some have pointed out that the op’s examples are weak so I will add a couple things I have noticed. Back before and during season two bloodlust seemed like a big deal to JQ. Commanders would ask roamer’s to cap it; if roamer’s didn’t they would split the zerg to cap it themselves. When ever we had bloodlust no one would kitten about stomping, constantly reminding everyone not to cleave. I even got yelled at for cleaving downed bodies in big fights instead of stomping for points. Now, I cant even remember the last time someone mentioned BL or stomping . Everyone tags every downed body they can.

Secondly I saw a scout report about a keep being attacked in off hours timezone. When the only commander pinned with a group is asked if we should defend he says " I dont give a F about ppt. I dont give a F about jgbl."

I dont really care, this just surprised me because it wasn’t the attitude I remember from JQ months ago.

i was the cmdr that said that, what came out was pretty much caught me at a wrong moment when we are in the middle of the fight and i apologized for it to both the scout and the rest of people on TS. sorry if you were offended. but, yes JQBL objective was paper and the week’s matchup was over. We were playing for fights and not ppt that day. if there is anything to blame, blame the server’s lack of being able to organize a proper ppt push week. blame the guilds and commanders for choosing to focus on fights only because thats pretty much what JQ has become in reality. today i brought pple on a ppt run all over the 4 maps, and ended wiping bgbl hills wp. its easy to ppt, its just that many of the players left in wvw now dont want to and as a commander these days you pretty much have to cater to a certain degree what the people want to do. We offer 6g per 30min to people to scout JQBL plus inclusion in the scout raffle and still get no volunteers. im a hardcore ppt player turned GvGer but i still want my ppt and want my server to do welll in ppt. its just a pity that there arent enough likeminded ones around anymore.

Hey Bubba,
I wasn’t offended. I only brought it up as an example of the changing attitudes about ppt on a server that in my experience was more focused on ppt several months ago.

So it’s all BG’s fault that JQ get’s one pushed by groups half their size? It’s BG’s fault JQ became dependent on arrow carts to fight? It’s BG’s fault that JQ disappear within an hour of resets? All 3 servers queue up maps on reset, but only JQ quite within the first hour. JQ’s problems are internal and your environment is toxic as many others here are trying to explain to you, stop trying to blame your problems on others and take responsibility.

BG posters behave like their Lucky Luke. Keep fighting your shadows, Boys. It’s fun.

Maybe the PPT arms race in T1 finally ran out of resources to sustain itself.

The coverage and population issues that pre-determine winners in T2-T8 matches have turned players away from PPT towards fights. Why play for PPT when you already know who is going to win?

As the number of dissatisfied “fights” and PvD players and guilds left lower tiers to T1 for the 24/7 fights, great community, blah blah blah, eventually they’ve grown tired of the same thing in T1 and instead of going back to what they left they’ve decided to not play WvW anymore.

Welcome to what the rest of WvW has been going through since launch.
You’ve got four choices.

1. Accept your new reality. Do nothing about it and qq about how good it used to be.
2. Hope Anet comes up with balancing solution.
3. Figure out a way to balance things amongst yourselves.
4. Quit WvW.

I tried to politely note that the OP had chosen to apportion blame rather than accept their share of responsibility. My post may or may not have been too confusing for new players. ( not aimed at the OP)

In a PvP enabled environment/game/world you get to control the actions of just one player. ie the fix includes player actions and likely some reality checks.

elkirin.8534:

I tried to politely note that the OP had chosen to apportion blame rather than accept their share of responsibility. My post may or may not have been too confusing for new players. ( not aimed at the OP)

In a PvP enabled environment/game/world you get to control the actions of just one player. ie the fix includes player actions and likely some reality checks.

Agree. The blame is to be shared by all of us, not just ANET.