Guild Wars 2

There’s four specific ways I’ve seen commanders try to take east and west keep in the BL’s (excluding golems and trebbing) that I want to bring up:

1) Ramming both outer and inner
2) Catapulting both outer and inner with the same catapults, using all supply (ninja spot they call it)
3) Catapult outer with most of the supply, build more catapults on inner and catapult the inner with both your inner and outer catapults
4) Catapult the outer, catapult + ram the inner gate

Countless commanders have called me stupid for saying that 1) is quicker per supply than 2) when comparing superior catapults to superior rams.

Most will say “It is better to just catapult the walls because you can place the catapults in a spot where it can hit both outer and inner walls so it is more supply efficient for the damage it does.” All of them saying this without actually knowing the dps that the siege does and how much hp the gate/walls have.

When comparing superior rams with ram mastery to superior catapults with the r1 mastery that gives 20% more damage to walls (most common rank among catapult users): superior rams beat out superior catapults for all accounts. For 100 supply and up where you can ram both outer and inner, it is quicker to just ram. This wasn’t true before ram mastery but with ram mastery now, it’s faster to ram.

1 sup ram outer and 1 sup ram inner: 3.3 mins in total for both gates to go down
2 sup catapults that hit both outer and inner: 3.78 mins in total (1.35 outer, 2.43 inner)

As you can see, rams are much faster and that’s comparing 100 supply to 120 supply.

3 sup ram outer then 2 sup ram inner: 1.36 mins (250 supply)
5 sup catapults that hit both outer and inner: 1.51 mins (300 supply)

Still better.

I calculated 3) and 4) too. For 3), it’s pretty close to 2) for a lot of supply counts and very slightly faster at 300 supply but still not worth it due to time to build (because it’s only around 3 seconds better at that supply).
4) is a little close to 2) for low supply but is never actually faster per supply.

For 3) and 4), there is of course controversy as to how many siege to build on outer and inner. I calculated the optimal siege through just playing around with numbers which go up until 600 supply.

IMPORTANT:

Guild catapulting both walls is better dps per supply than ramming on all accounts. This comparison was comparing superior rams to superior catapults. Many commanders still believe that superior catapulting is better dps per supply than ramming which is wrong.

NOTE:

Double catapulting the walls is generally safer than ramming in regards to avoiding enemy siege, especially if the enemy has siege on inner and behind gates instead of the area where you want to catapult from. Thus, it’s perfectly fine for a commander to double catapult with superior catapults, particularly if the enemy server is trying to defend the keep. If you believe that the enemy server is not defending the keep you are after and has no siege, I’d highly recommend ramming.

tl;dr ramming EK/WK is faster dps per supply than double catapulting outer + inner, double catapulting should only be done in response/fear of enemy siege and not because you think it’s faster (because it’s not)

however, since most RAM MASTERY users have spent up to 3 or more traits in the line, one should calculate the DPS from full bonuses.
IE: Catapult DPS with 25% increase and 20% bonus to walls

Under the rare assumption that all catapult users have the rank 4 mastery:

For 60-99 supply, 120-149 supply, and 180-199 supply, it’s better damage per supply to superior catapult than to superior ram.

60-99 supply isn’t enough to ram, 120-149 gives just enough for 2 catapults and not allowing a 3rd ram, and 180-199 is where you get the 3rd catapult but not the 4th ram. For all supply counts above or not in that range, ramming is faster.

edit: While catapult mastery only needs one more rank than ram mastery to max out dps, it is much less prioritized and much less common to be ranked than ram mastery but yea it’s possible and fair to at least look at the comparison.

Or cata from across the valley and treb north inner hills from that hill in the middle of no where

Most commanders, at least on my server, are using Guild catapults.
25 supply to build one.
Its 4 catas or 2 normal rams for 10 people.

So it takes 20 seconds more… Yeah, that’s still better than standing in the middle of 10 arrowcarts at inner.

I dont know how the servers you face are, but certain ones like Rivercart have people on arrowcarts either when you arrive at a gate or within 10 seconds because people start building them as soon as they enter. Its not uncommon to clear 2-4 superior arrowcarts, a treb and a catapult on an outer gate, nevermind inner. Lets not even begin to discuss servers where there are 50 defending against 30 and they still build half a dozen arrowcarts.

Catapults may be slower, but its a considerably more sure bet if you havent been noticed to breach the outer walls quickly and see what you face on inner, than to enter outer, clear it, go to inner gate and suddenly loose 80% of your supply and half your men because siege start raining over you. And that’s not even taking into account the other things, such as being more exposed on inner gate (enemies can easily come from any direction) and supply traps.

Sidenote: Catapults can also damage gate and wall next to it at the same time, giving you 2 points of entrance with little extra effort (just some more time since it does less damage on gates than walls)

and a lonely nab nuke down your sup rams front of the door with the sup ac what they built up.

To summarize… catas win by a mile.

The reasons: guild catas, easier for small teams, less chance of getting AC’d into the ground, immune to door trebs/catas and easier to escape a larger incoming force.

Pretty much, though as often as commanders on my server drop basic siege (even ones that have legendaries and a lot of money), I don’t see guild catapults dropped often for the cost though a few commanders are willing to do it on my server.

You’re forgetting that there is so many advantages to catas compared to rams. Catapults can damage more than one defensive structure. This requires the enemy to spend more supply.

Catapults are also far less susceptible to gate-bombs. Catapults can be used from a distance. If you’re using guild catas (equivelant of sup cata) it’s extremely more efficient than rams. You can get 2 guild catas up for the price of one ram. That’s a total of 8 guild catas compared to 4 superior rams, for the same supply. I’d bet 60g that 8 guild catas is a hell of a lot faster than 2 rams inner 2 rams outer.

You’re also assuming that it’s extremely rare for people to have Cata T4. This isn’t the case. Sure, ram masters are more common, but in my experience there is always one or two cata masters.

You’re also forgetting that going Catas then rams or rams then rams doesn’t allow you to set up an effective choke point, adding other siege if needed. In the case of hills, you’ve got a wall as a choke point. You can go up and take out their outer siege and their inner siege is largely useless. In the case of bay, the only way to take out that cata spot is with a rush or a trebuchet. Compare this to putting rams on inner…

You can see where all this is going. Sure, rams might be technically faster, but it’s literally a case of seconds. You’re exchanging a matter of seconds for a less defensible position, more supply and lower repair cost & time for the enemy.

All of WvW is situational based, but you’re wrong in trying to say that just because rams are faster means they’re better.

Radian.2478:

even ones that have legendaries and a lot of money

Because of course, it’s the commander’s responsibility to pay for every single piece of siege and not anybody else’s, because of course, they’ve already spent 100g on the tag and probably have more money.

I’m coming to the conclusion that you don’t quite get how WvW works.