Guild Wars 2

But the rally system is stupid as kitten.

Oh kitten I’ve been knocked down in a 1v1. Better plink at the doe that someone drive-by’ed and hope I kill it before they kill me.

Oh sweet I bombed their zerg and now I have an AoE cap of down people sitting in front of me. Oops the lvl 5 ele beside me got staked in the face and now all of them are magically back up at half health.

The reason zerg v zerg is a numbers game isn’t because the larger zerg can outdamage the weaker one; it’s because the larger zerg can outrez the weaker one and prevent a cascade of rallies that causes the downed people on the other team to stay downed till they are dead. Whoever thought adding a system that causes that style of domino effect where one or two idiots getting themselves killed on one team can flip a whole battle sure was smoking the good kitten.

Is there a reason this couldn’t have been a response to the thread in progress?

Rallying off of NPCs is an environmental aspect that you should be controlling for if you want to effectively fight in a WvW environment. Realize that it is part of combat and it becomes less annoying.

And the reason that zerg v. zerg is a numbers game is both higher damage potential and higher defensive potential. The defensive potential is simply demonstrated via reviving in GW2, as opposed to mass heals/buffs like in some games.

Tulisin.6945:

Is there a reason this couldn’t have been a response to the thread in progress?

Yes, the down system and the rally system are two separate things. Every post about rallies in the down system thread gets lost in the sea of endless crying about the down system. The down system in my opinion is completely fine.

zastari.1730:

Tulisin.6945:

Is there a reason this couldn’t have been a response to the thread in progress?

Yes, the down system and the rally system are two separate things.

In the sense that stealth and revealed are two different things, I guess. The downed mechanic encompasses the rallying mechanic entirely.

In small group combat, I always make sure to pull in mobs around me and bring down their health, specifically so I can ninja rez myself if I get downed. Skilful players will be aware of this, and kill any mobs before they can be used as a rezzing point. It’s the same in zergs, if I have allies around me downed, I’ll always prioritize killing easy targets to rez more people at once than stopping and reviving them myself. It’s a legitimate tactic and it’s not a broken mechanic. Instead of complaining about it, work it into your strategy and skill, and you’ll find combat just that much more dynamic.

I’ve already worked rallying off of mobs into my strategy. It’s still stupid. I’ll destroy you 1v1 and probably 1v2 in a pile of mobs any day. It’s not near as stupid as the rally cascade that causes zerg battles to be number v number though.

zastari.1730:

But the rally system is stupid as kitten.

Oh kitten I’ve been knocked down in a 1v1. Better plink at the doe that someone drive-by’ed and hope I kill it before they kill me.

Oh sweet I bombed their zerg and now I have an AoE cap of down people sitting in front of me. Oops the lvl 5 ele beside me got staked in the face and now all of them are magically back up at half health.

The reason zerg v zerg is a numbers game isn’t because the larger zerg can outdamage the weaker one; it’s because the larger zerg can outrez the weaker one and prevent a cascade of rallies that causes the downed people on the other team to stay downed till they are dead. Whoever thought adding a system that causes that style of domino effect where one or two idiots getting themselves killed on one team can flip a whole battle sure was smoking the good kitten.

This is actually a valid point. We absolutely hate it when sub80s tag along with our small group since the chance they will die and get stomped thereby rallying the people we have downed is pretty high.

Any system that makes you resent having realmmates near you is probably flawed. The rally system needs to be looked at or perhaps completely removed.

I could even see some people exploiting it by using a second account and intentionally using them to rally. Definitely exploitable, just like using stomped toons to spy.

Opc.4718:

In small group combat, I always make sure to pull in mobs around me and bring down their health, specifically so I can ninja rez myself if I get downed. Skilful players will be aware of this, and kill any mobs before they can be used as a rezzing point. It’s the same in zergs, if I have allies around me downed, I’ll always prioritize killing easy targets to rez more people at once than stopping and reviving them myself. It’s a legitimate tactic and it’s not a broken mechanic. Instead of complaining about it, work it into your strategy and skill, and you’ll find combat just that much more dynamic.

Again, the problem is that the rally system makes the fight a bit too dependent on not having people near you who suck. The example of the L5 elementalist in starter gear who gets too close to your fight and doesn’t understand how downed state 2 works is a valid example.

You shouldn’t have to lose a fight because someone like that gets stomped rallying 4 people that you have downed.

zastari.1730:

I’ve already worked rallying off of mobs into my strategy. It’s still stupid. I’ll destroy you 1v1 and probably 1v2 in a pile of mobs any day. It’s not near as stupid as the rally cascade that causes zerg battles to be number v number though.

If you’re capable of destroying someone 1v1 or 1v2, the pile of mobs is only good for them to get away alive. Kinda like thief stealths. If they rally off, you shouldn’t have any problems dropping them again. If it was a very close match though, it could be a flipping factor and you’d be hitting yourself over the head if that little game mechanic got you. In either case, it’s still a core part of the combat system and even if you personally think its stupid, it adds a depth to the battle you have to consider. You can’t call for getting rid of thief stealth because “it’s stupid”, its a core part of the class and its not going anywhere. All you can do is take advantage whenever, and if you really really hate it, maybe gw2 isn’t for you.

As for cascading zerg rezzes, I do facepalm if a lowbie who gets himself killed revives the whole enemy party just as I’m about to finish them off, but in any sizeable zerg its not that much of a big deal, it just prolongs the inevitable but rarely flips matches.

I don’t think you understand how much it completely flips matches. When we’re running 5 man zergbusting groups, the difference between us killing 20 people or us wiping is whether each person downed in our team gets rezzed or not. The instant one dies the fight is over.

I disagree with your thread title. I agree with your first post. They distinctly different, but the downed state is also dumb as hell.

zastari.1730:

I don’t think you understand how much it completely flips matches. When we’re running 5 man zergbusting groups, the difference between us killing 20 people or us wiping is whether each person downed in our team gets rezzed or not. The instant one dies the fight is over.

Unless you all have handy invulnerability/stability utilities, it’s rather problematic going 5v20. If that’s the case, you should simply avoid engaging until you can divide and conquer, no one’s forcing you to zerg bust at such odds. You might’ve been able to do it in another game, but this mechanic changes things and tactics will have to be adjusted accordingly.

By sizeable zergs, I meant the typical huge scale pug 20v20s, where downed state doesn’t really change MUCH. Except for the bit about rezzing the dead, now that’s a feature that serves no purpose except to favour the already powerful.

you die, avenge, kill 1 mob, repeat til you kill all your oponents…….

urdriel.8496:

you die, avenge, kill 1 mob, repeat til you kill all your oponents…….

If your opponents are bad enough to let you do that, they deserve it.

I shouldn’t have to run around clearing all the mobs in an area mid fight to prevent rallies. Stop trying to justify a completely kitten mechanic that has absolutely no reason to exist by saying ‘oh well if you were good it wouldn’t matter’.

dreztina.4820:

I shouldn’t have to run around clearing all the mobs in an area mid fight to prevent rallies.

“I shouldn’t have to do <insert anything here> to ensure victory, real skill only consists of stuff I’m good at and/or stuff that is in other games.”

That is how combat works in GW2, like it or leave it, ignore entire combat mechanics and be punished for it. You wouldn’t completely ignore siege weapons and then complain that they’re illegitimate and should be removed because you keep dying.

Can you actually provide a single reason for why the game is better because a player who is downed by pvp damage can be rallied off a pve death?

And like it or leave it? What kind of stupid attitude is that? How about I like it, and I don’t want to leave it, so I’m trying to convince the devs to improve it.

I don’t usually label people, but you are one of the most rabid fanboys I have encountered in a great while.

dreztina.4820:

I don’t usually label people, but you are one of the most rabid fanboys I have encountered in a great while.

GW2 has plenty of weak mechanics, but the downed state isn’t one of them. It could use tuning on a per-profession basis, but as an overall part of GW2 combat it contributes a lot.

Rallying off of NPCs in WvW is good because it provides varied terrain that can be manipulated for asymmetric combat, which is ultimately what WvW is about. It also lends significance to NPCs in WvW beyond standing around looking pretty. It creates more depth in combat and another skill-controllable factor. If you want a less complex space to PvP that focused more tightly on tactics than strategy, sPvP is available. Downed state rallying fits right in with WvW.

Rallying is incredibly stupid in its current incarnation.

If a Thief Daggerstorms a zerg in a Zerg vs. Zerg fight he’s almost guaranteed to get a near instant-rally when downed.

In fact I downed a Thief just today with no other people or mobs around but who then instant rallied because someone must have killed a player well over 100 yards away.

Of course I’ve had the same happen to me but it was just as stupid.

Rallying is ok for smaller skirmishes but it becomes pretty stupid in WvW.

The “tag” effect lasts too long and on too many people. I shouldn’t be able to rally off someone who I just happened to have AoE’d 30 seconds ago.

Imo they need to limit it far more.

1. The “tag” for rallying doesn’t last longer than 15 seconds. I.e. you can only rally off someone you attacked in the past 15 seconds.

2. As soon as a target is further than 50 yards from you can no longer rally off it.

3. You can only tag a max. of 3 target for rallying.

That should fix most of these “lol, random rally” situations and make it more predictable.

Dee Jay.2460:

1. The “tag” for rallying doesn’t last longer than 15 seconds. I.e. you can only rally off someone you attacked in the past 15 seconds.

2. As soon as a target is further than 50 yards from you can no longer rally off it.

3. You can only tag a max. of 3 target for rallying.

I think #1 and #3 are great ideas, although #3 may be a bit low on the max. Rallying should require some specific intent on the part of the downed person, either before or after getting downed, to kill the target they’re rallying off of. Simply being able to AE the zerg and open up rally opportunities if anyone dies is poorly tuned.

The #2 is a bit trickier and feeds more power into mobility which is already easily the most powerful combat asset in WvW. I’m not sure what you mean by 50 yards though. Melee range is 130 “units”, for instance.

Tulisin.6945:

urdriel.8496:

you die, avenge, kill 1 mob, repeat til you kill all your oponents…….

If your opponents are bad enough to let you do that, they deserve it.

try to kill a warrior underwater……..

Opc.4718:

zastari.1730:

I don’t think you understand how much it completely flips matches. When we’re running 5 man zergbusting groups, the difference between us killing 20 people or us wiping is whether each person downed in our team gets rezzed or not. The instant one dies the fight is over.

Unless you all have handy invulnerability/stability utilities, it’s rather problematic going 5v20. If that’s the case, you should simply avoid engaging until you can divide and conquer, no one’s forcing you to zerg bust at such odds. You might’ve been able to do it in another game, but this mechanic changes things and tactics will have to be adjusted accordingly.

I regularly run with groups that can and do win 5v20. Divide and conquer is so blindingly obvious at this point that it’s kind of silly that you have to mention it. The issue is that if one single person dies while we kite — if one stupid pubbie runs by our group and goes into the fight and dies, the entire battle resets and our whole team has to start all over since the people we downed are now all magically back up.

There is no justification for a system that is that stupid.