Guild Wars 2

I’m sure we’ve all had this happen to us in WvW.

You engage an enemy, he proceeds to attack an animal like a deer or whatever (or you attack the animal by accident, especially if when they stroll into your AOE attacks).

Anyways, the fight is working out in your favor, you proceed to down the enemy. Suddenly the animal dies (either because he kills it, or your attacks accidentally do) and then your enemy opponent magically rallies and continues to fight you.

Is this a bug or intended?

Anyone have this happen to them all the time? It’s irritating as crap.

This is completely annoying and it actually happens a lot. So much in fact that I was going to make the very same thread.

This mechanic needs to be tweaked. If I down an enemy player and my swings or AOE kills a mob or he does….it should NOT res him. That’s just silly.

The problem with how many view the downed state is that they just compartmentalize it as separate from how the game “should” work. They say the “downed state caused X, which wouldn’t normally happen if GW2 was any other respectable game.”

In reality, you have to integrate the presence of the downed state with your entire view on how GW2 works. It is a part of GW2 and the game is built around it.

The issue is, then, not “Is it wrong for downed enemies to rally on NPCs and thereby disrupt how PvP should work if the downed state didn’t exist” but instead “The downed state exists, rallying off of NPCs is an attribute of this mechanic, how can I mitigate that risk?”

The answer is that you either need to be more careful around low-health NPCs when trying to finish a downed player or you need to kill the NPCs before you down your opponent. I’ve both taken advantage of this mechanic (aggroing some NPCs when it becomes apparent I’ll be downed, aiming for NPCs when downed instead of players), and worked to mitigate the negative effects it can have (going out of my way to disengage my weakened target, kill the 25 % HP deer, and then re-engage). GW2’s win-state for PvP involves downing your opponent, ensuring your opponent doesn’t rally, and finishing your opponent (via spike or raw damage) in that order. You don’t get to suddenly skip step 2 because other games don’t have it so you shouldn’t have to worry about it.

As soon as you stop viewing GW2 through the mechanics of most other games, GW2’s mechanics are just GW2’s mechanics, not intrusions on how things “should work”.

working as intended.

Had this happen to me just yesterday. Fighting a Warrior who was hitting nearby deer while attacking me. He goes down and hits one of the deer twice while down… rallies. I engage him again and he goes down again. He kills the other deer before I can finish him off and manages to escape.

It’s so frustrating to beat someone not once but twice only to be denied because of low health animals in the area. I’m not sure what can be done, if anything, but it’s a really cheap tactic.

As Tulisin said, adapt. The GW2 downed mechanic isn’t going anywhere, so learn to lower the risk of rallying. Kill the NPCs before you kill the player or be more careful.

I think the “l2p” responses are misguided here. This seems to be a situation where the mechanic is not working as it should. You killing an animal attacking you shouldn’t rally your enemy.

Yukishiro.8792:

I think the “l2p” responses are misguided here. This seems to be a situation where the mechanic is not working as it should. You killing an animal attacking you shouldn’t rally your enemy.

Sure it should, the premise is that if your target dies, you revive.
If I have 2 enemies on me and one is 3/4 alive and the other is 1/4 alive, I would target the 1/4 alive character, if that’s an animal – so be it.

Animals are usually used to get them on your enemy. If your enemy wants to kill them for you and is AOE happy then they give you chances to rez from it. That’s considered using your environment in your favor. People should change to single target skills if they don’t want to help kill the animals during a scuffle.

At least your opponents don’t level up while you’re fighting them

Sixpax.8360:

It’s so frustrating to beat someone not once but twice only to be denied because of low health animals in the area. I’m not sure what can be done, if anything, but it’s a really cheap tactic.

This is the problem here. You didn’t beat them. In the context of GW2, you got outplayed (or at least stalemated, if they escaped), because GW2’s combat system is not strictly confined to the perceptions you’re bringing from other games. You’re ignoring an entire subset of combat mechanics and then proclaiming victory on the basis of “those mechanics are dumb anyways”.

It’d be like refusing to use siege, losing a fight, and asking for siege to be removed because you can win when siege isn’t around. It isn’t “a cheap tactic” it is how the game is intentionally designed.

Honestly you should expect it, it’s part of the game design. I’ve had people rally of animals before, I’ve CC’d them so they can’t escape, downed them again and finished them off properly, I don’t think anyone has every gotten away from me even if they do rally.

Yeah, it is annoying.

What is more annoying is the complete lack of balance in most classes down states.

Anyways, I think in WvW you should only rally off of player kills, not random critters although it isn’t much bigger than a small annoyance to me.

It doesn’t really hurt small gang or blob PvP imo, its the solo fights where that guy rallys off of some stupid goat and kills you because of it. Thats what I find really annoying.

I’ve begun adapting my tactics in so that I always engage player(s) with animals around me that I’ve wounded, should I go down, I simply finish off the animal and stand right back up. I managed to do this twice today and kill my enemy opponents, despite them downing me first.

I figure if its a working as intended feature, might as do as much as possible.

Sunreva.8714:

I’ve begun adapting my tactics in so that I always engage player(s) with animals around me that I’ve wounded, should I go down, I simply finish off the animal and stand right back up. I managed to do this twice today and kill my enemy opponents, despite them downing me first.

I figure if its a working as intended feature, might as do as much as possible.

This is a good example of realizing how the game works and integrating it with how you fight, instead of trying to ignore mechanics and getting punished for it.

Tulisin.6945:

Sunreva.8714:

I’ve begun adapting my tactics in so that I always engage player(s) with animals around me that I’ve wounded, should I go down, I simply finish off the animal and stand right back up. I managed to do this twice today and kill my enemy opponents, despite them downing me first.

I figure if its a working as intended feature, might as do as much as possible.

This is a good example of realizing how the game works and integrating it with how you fight, instead of trying to ignore mechanics and getting punished for it.

this!

the w in wvw stands for world, mobs are a part of that.

you are given a hostile environment to fight in. if you are near npc’s make sure that you understand that there health is a factor. don’t just ignore part of the game because it makes the encounter easier everything is a factor. if its not a good place for a fight relocate.

I will actively look for mobs when downed. its part and parcel of the game. There are even times when its a good idea to not get someone into a downed state or to intentionally leave an enemy downed to take advantage of this ability. if you are running away on low health why not engage a mob with a quick burst knowing you can rally.

its not a level battle field out there and thats what makes it fun!

Tulisin.6945:

The problem with how many view the downed state is that they just compartmentalize it as separate from how the game “should” work. They say the “downed state caused X, which wouldn’t normally happen if GW2 was any other respectable game.”

As soon as you stop viewing GW2 through the mechanics of most other games, GW2’s mechanics are just GW2’s mechanics, not intrusions on how things “should work”.

That makes zero sense. Asserting blind acceptance of a a bad pvp mechanic does not make it good game play.

Tapping packs of animals to become jojo the human yo-yo is dumb. But ya dotting a wolf before going down is elite at this point. going down then rewards you with a brief invulnerability buff, a new hp pool some cc, then rally to help down your foes.

Of course you have to do stuff like this with current game, but that does nto change the fact its garbage game play from a design stand point.

WvW is NOT PvP. So don’t call this issue a PvP mechanic. It’s closer to a PvE mechanic in a server vs server setting where PvP and PvE meet. ANet has stated that WvW was going to be aix of servers duking it out in a PvE setting so PvE settings apply.

You want pure PvP go play sPvP or tPvP.

I don’t want this removed.

It is a great use of tactical play, using the environment to your advantage. Removing that will make combat simple and boring.

I think it should stay. It’s a clever use of the mechanic and I don’t think people should be punished for being clever or thinking ahead.

Tulisin.6945:

Sixpax.8360:

It’s so frustrating to beat someone not once but twice only to be denied because of low health animals in the area. I’m not sure what can be done, if anything, but it’s a really cheap tactic.

This is the problem here. You didn’t beat them. In the context of GW2, you got outplayed (or at least stalemated, if they escaped), because GW2’s combat system is not strictly confined to the perceptions you’re bringing from other games. You’re ignoring an entire subset of combat mechanics and then proclaiming victory on the basis of “those mechanics are dumb anyways”.

It’d be like refusing to use siege, losing a fight, and asking for siege to be removed because you can win when siege isn’t around. It isn’t “a cheap tactic” it is how the game is intentionally designed.

Point taken on not “beating” him. He got away so in fact no one one. However, just because it is an intentional design doesn’t mean it isn’t cheap (the two aren’t mutually exclusive). If it wasn’t intentional it would be an exploit (which clearly it isn’t), but it is taking advantage of that design and using it in way that’s unscrupulous (my opinion). See: Cheap Tactics.

There’s no such thing as “cheap tactics”, don’t be a scrub.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sirlin

It’s somewhat ok to comment on the merits of the mechanic (given that we are in a game that can be patched), but to use morality as your reasoning or to disparage people who use the mechanic is the exact definition of scrub.

First thing to remember: if you get downed and then revive, your downed hp will be lower the next time you go down. There’s no infinite yo-yoing. How many times is he actually going to be able to pull this off?

Second thing to remember: if you’re both hitting the mobs, you’ll be the one benefiting if you go down. The other guy is taking a risk bringing mobs into the fight – he’ll be taking more damage and he’s giving you the possibility of a quick rally as well.

Yeah, sixpax. By your definition of “Cheap Tactic”, using a tree or a hill to block ranged attacks is also cheap. =/

WvW is PvP inside PvE. Doesn’t matter what anyone believes it is. It is what it is. This encompasses all aspects of both. If a player can juggle a mob’s health with his own as well as fight an opponent, timing it so he can rally to defeat his opponent, then the one who lost just got outplayed. He should accept that.

This game feature doesn’t really bother me. I run as part of a team and when someone goes down, even if they stagger to their feet, they usually go straight back down.

Occasionally one will escape but most times they are out of the battle so it makes little difference to the outcome, and its only the outcome in any given engagement that I care about, not individual kills.

Does this include one shot white animals?

Doomdesire.9365:

At least your opponents don’t level up while you’re fighting them

lol that has actually save me from death so many times.

I do think there are too many aggressive mobs in wvw and just mobs in general. Though I don’t mind the rally from them, it just annoys me when I get perm dazed by 5 raptors when I’m trying to fight a player..

“working as intended.”
i like rabbits, rats, cats, frogs, ravens, all sort of insta rally mechanics. just kidding

Actually this whole downed state need to be looked over. If they even gonna have it they first of all should not do dmg. They can have one survival ability but not dmg. It happends alot that you go down from some of them insane dmg, as if you somehow can own a higher number of people. 5 vs 15-20, you get them to finish mode very fast but they actually doing insane dmg 15-20 ppl just throwing kitten on you when you gonna down them.

And for me i dont even want the player to go up at all when someone goes down. And ofcourse not by some random animals interrupting the fight. If you go to finishmode its up to you teammates or some other to get you up not depend on luck.

Im against pve mobs in WvW in general. Outside gaining favor from certain specific npcs/mercenaries and guards.
PvE mobs are the bane of my existance in WvW. They get involved in fights, which results in enemies rallying. They tag aggro on you, downing you if you are already low. They obstruct los to enemies, taking the hits for them. They gte you into combat, causing you to run slower. Or bam, stunned/knockdown by one of those god aweful snow leopards.

They are a first class pain in the kitten that serve no other purpose but to frustrate, interfere and infuriate.
If Anet is so scared of WvW looking empty, add friendly animals just for show. Not these annoying basterds.

When the enemy is downed, you have not won the fight yet. You have a big advantage as the enemy is immobile (unless underwater) and very limited in abilities, but it’s not over.

I don’t mind this mechanic, it’s saved me a couple times. And vice versa, has saved the person I’m fighting… but I just accept it as part of how the game works. I just view WvW kind of like a separate pvp server, where there are still mobs to fight but you have to constantly be on guard for enemy players. The added environment and mobs just makes it feel more alive I guess, I don’t really mind it all that much.

Even when people have downed and rallied from mobs they don’t often get away in my experience. I don’t really have much of a problem with it. Just have to learn to adapt is all.

Same.4687:

WvW is NOT PvP. So don’t call this issue a PvP mechanic. It’s closer to a PvE mechanic in a server vs server setting where PvP and PvE meet. ANet has stated that WvW was going to be aix of servers duking it out in a PvE setting so PvE settings apply.

You want pure PvP go play sPvP or tPvP.

Such a well thought out response… except the issue is in spvp as well with bosses and sharks. That said I don’t have an issue with it except in one particular instance, and that is underwater vs a warrior with sweet revenge slotted. Granted water combat is horrible as far as balance is concerned so it’s not really an issue with the rally mechanic as much as it is underwater downed state.

They should make it that YOU have to kill the npc/animal to get the rally. Right now it doesn’t matter who kills it. So I can apply a small ae bleed to a mob , I lose the fight an the guy who beat me kills the mob before he stomps me I get a free rally.

Sixpax.8360:

it is taking advantage of that design and using it in way that’s unscrupulous (my opinion). See: Cheap Tactics.

Fair enough, but “cheap tactics” is entirely subjective. I can decide that someone using stealth is “cheap tactics”, someone shooting at me from higher ground I can’t easily reach could be “cheap tactics”, or even being killed 3v1 instead of fighting me 1v1. Large-scale warfare like WvW, is about pressing every advantage you have to win, not about “fair” duels. That doesn’t mean condoning hacks or cheating, but using the downed state as it is intended is very much within the realm of a skill-based mechanic you should be using to get ahead.

The biggest problem, to me, with this mechanic is that as players have greater access to more powerful gear and just plain get better the already comparatively weak NPC guards become more of a liability than an asset. Defending camps is already pretty tough without having to worry about the enemy constantly rallying from suicidal guards.

So since downed state are part of the game design, horrible design if you ask me, why are they so badly balanced?

Seriously, I down a Ranger, I know I can kill it in 3-5 sec. I down a thief, I sometime need 3 shot before finishing him.

I personnally dislike the downed state.

Nothing like 1-shotting a rabbit with the throw skill in a downed state to rally and kill the guy who should have just killed you. Yeah it’s silly and very likely an oversight that hopefully gets fixed in WvW. Regarding regular NPCs, I doubt that will change unless major changes are made to the downed state mechanic.

You can’t rally off critters like rabbits, frogs, hawks and other mobs that die in one hit. Only deer or rams and the sort that actually become aggressive and fight back.

I’ve stopped using lower health pets in wvw as people kept rallying off them ><

Pve mob have noghting to do in wvw….

Gelltor.3015:

I’ve stopped using lower health pets in wvw as people kept rallying off them ><

I don’t think one can rally from killing pets. I tried several times and failed. After that I just tag other mobs, low health enemies, or low health sieges.

Gelltor.3015:

I’ve stopped using lower health pets in wvw as people kept rallying off them ><

I’ve never rallied off a ranger’s pets, nor has anyone rallied from mine. That I’ve noticed.

Tulisin.6945:

Sixpax.8360:

it is taking advantage of that design and using it in way that’s unscrupulous (my opinion). See: Cheap Tactics.

Fair enough, but “cheap tactics” is entirely subjective. I can decide that someone using stealth is “cheap tactics”, someone shooting at me from higher ground I can’t easily reach could be “cheap tactics”, or even being killed 3v1 instead of fighting me 1v1. Large-scale warfare like WvW, is about pressing every advantage you have to win, not about “fair” duels. That doesn’t mean condoning hacks or cheating, but using the downed state as it is intended is very much within the realm of a skill-based mechanic you should be using to get ahead.

Oh I completely agree with you that it’s subjective and thank you for recognizing it as such. Our opinions of it are obviously different and for all I know Anet approves of the tactic as well… so be it. I was just posting my feelings about it and leaving it to them to decide if it’s something they want to remain in the game or not. Personally I don’t care either way. It’s just frustrating to be denied the kill the way I was because of it. It’s not like the player I fought had any strategic significance to WvW. I’ll be more cognizant of this (cheap) tactic in the future when I fight enemy players.

Nabrok.9023:

When the enemy is downed, you have not won the fight yet. You have a big advantage as the enemy is immobile (unless underwater) and very limited in abilities, but it’s not over.

But that is the thing. Suppose you fight someone, and a pve mob is tagged. You down your opponent and he goes down, you took a beating and you are down to 20% health aswell.
The PvE mob ends up dying, the guy you downed just gets back up with 50% health. He went from losing, to winning. Now you go down, no pve mob around BAM, youre stomped.

If that PvE mob wasnt there, you wouldve won. And THAT is what pisses people off. Or ofcourse, you know, having to down someone 3x, by now you’re exhausted aswell, woop no more pve mobs. You go down, and you die. You just downed him 3x and he was alone, you had it in the pocket… three times.

And many other situations where its just kitten annoying. Yesterday i fought a Thief, took quite a big burt from that sneaky little basterd but got him down. Ive had a little health left and ofcourse he teleports so i couldnt instantly stomp him.
I also had two of those wolves on me (it was near Cragtop), so before i could get a stomp on him i also went down.

By now i had 4 wolves on me (both of them summoned an ally), ofcourse that Thief was at much lower health as i did keep shooting at him. But nope, one of the wolves was standing over my downed character in such a way that he was blocking line-of-sight. So i couldnt actually hit the Thief anymore!
And he was slowly healing himself up, as i was slowly being torn to pieces by wolves.

And the worst part, HE aggroed the wolves. But since he went invisible, they simply switched aggro to me. So yah, i was pissed.

Terrahero.9358:

But that is the thing. Suppose you fight someone, and a pve mob is tagged. You down your opponent and he goes down, you took a beating and you are down to 20% health aswell.
The PvE mob ends up dying, the guy you downed just gets back up with 50% health. He went from losing, to winning. Now you go down, no pve mob around BAM, youre stomped.

If that PvE mob wasnt there, you wouldve won. And THAT is what pisses people off. Or ofcourse, you know, having to down someone 3x, by now you’re exhausted aswell, woop no more pve mobs. You go down, and you die. You just downed him 3x and he was alone, you had it in the pocket… three times.

The problem is your perception. You didn’t go from “losing, to winning”, and you never “had it in the pocket”. You got outplayed because you ignored combat variables. He brought environment to the fight, and won because he was better at it (or at least luckier) than you.

If you want to argue that people shouldn’t be able to win via luck you might have a viable point, but there’s large elements of chance involved with any combat, you might as well be complaining that a guy got off three critical hits in a row.

Tulisin.6945:

The problem with how many view the downed state is that they just compartmentalize it as separate from how the game “should” work. They say the “downed state caused X, which wouldn’t normally happen if GW2 was any other respectable game.”

In reality, you have to integrate the presence of the downed state with your entire view on how GW2 works. It is a part of GW2 and the game is built around it.

This. Thisthisthisthisthis.

The downed state is part of a game that has changed so many other functions from “standard issue MMOs” (read: WoW clones). The downed state is fun and exciting, and the only thing it hurts is fragile egos. It’s part of the game, and it’s an interesting alternative to old-fashioned healers.

Do some classes have better downed state than others? Yes. Do some classes have better CC than others? Yes. Do some classes have better condition damage than others? Yes. Do some classes have better condition removal then others? Yes. You can see where I’m going with this.

And before you jump all over me for playing a thief, which, admittedly does have one of the better downed states, I also play an engineer, and I don’t think anyone’s jealous of their downed state.