Guild Wars 2

WvW used to be a fun past time with some great skirmishes. Then this stupid meta got popular with blobs of people putting EVERY boon up and running around the map like pack-man eating pills.

Maybe you want to slow the blob down using say a ‘Line of Warding’ oh dear that skills useless because the BLOB has permanent stability, not because it was skillfully activated to counteract you and you could respect that if it was the case.

How about stripping the Boons from the blob? yet again that skills useless because the blob puts ALL boons straight back up. 99% of your skills as an individual player are useless. the blob as a counter PRE-applied.

The only way to counter-act the ‘blob’ is become one. This fun? I certainly think not.

sandvich.8259:

WvW used to be a fun past time with some great skirmishes. Then this stupid meta got popular with blobs of people putting EVERY boon up and running around the map like pack-man eating pills.

Maybe you want to slow the blob down using say a ‘Line of Warding’ oh dear that skills useless because the BLOB has permanent stability, not because it was skillfully activated to counteract you and you could respect that if it was the case.

How about stripping the Boons from the blob? yet again that skills useless because the blob puts ALL boons straight back up. 99% of your skills as an individual player are useless. the blob as a counter PRE-applied.

The only way to counter-act the ‘blob’ is become one. This fun? I certainly think not.

Get a Mesmer, 2 Necros, and 2 Guardians.

Congrats, you just stripped all their boons, prevented them from being reapplied, and stopped them in their tracks.

If you enemies use tactics, use tactics back. Yours in the first post I’ve seen that prefers zergs to be mindless instead of running synergy builds and buffing each other.

Doesn’t Line of warding also stop them from shooting you?

There’s also small groups with bunker builds who can rip apart Zergs simply by being good with their builds, and proper use of boons.

A large blob of people only has so much power. They can typically only be in one place at once.

No line of warding doesn’t stop them shooting

Alarox.4590:

sandvich.8259:

WvW used to be a fun past time with some great skirmishes. Then this stupid meta got popular with blobs of people putting EVERY boon up and running around the map like pack-man eating pills.

Maybe you want to slow the blob down using say a ‘Line of Warding’ oh dear that skills useless because the BLOB has permanent stability, not because it was skillfully activated to counteract you and you could respect that if it was the case.

How about stripping the Boons from the blob? yet again that skills useless because the blob puts ALL boons straight back up. 99% of your skills as an individual player are useless. the blob as a counter PRE-applied.

The only way to counter-act the ‘blob’ is become one. This fun? I certainly think not.

Get a Mesmer, 2 Necros, and 2 Guardians.

Congrats, you just stripped all their boons, prevented them from being reapplied, and stopped them in their tracks.

If you enemies use tactics, use tactics back. Yours in the first post I’ve seen that prefers zergs to be mindless instead of running synergy builds and buffing each other.

TSYM…who utilize the culling issues to their fullest extent by jumping off a roof in mass numbers and killing their enemies before they are rendered.

This “Meta” game that you are describing is exactly what we on SoS are trying to foster. There will always be a “zerg” of puggers running around following a commander, but we want our server as well as other servers to start thinking about tactics, strategy, and small squad “meta”. We have developed and implemented several of these squads already, and are currently developing several other squads to enhance this style of game play.

This isn’t going away, people are going to have to start thinking about the game in ways other than “joining a zerg and running around the map like a mindless zombie”. We on SoS believe this is not only what the devs designed into the game, but that they also encourage small squad tactics by having so many layers of things you can do to customize your character/squad/play style.

If this is the type of game play you want to see, because it is more than just zerging, then come visit us on SoS. We’ll show you how effective small squad combat can be, even against a mindless zerg.

Wreck Havock
Applied Tactics
Sea of Sorrows
Founder and proud member of The Immortal Squad

Problem is, ive eveyrone start running these turtle balls, the only way to counter it is

1. run
2. siege
3. form your own turtle ball

turtle ball on turtle ball is like a mexican standoff and boring.

I love 5v5, but if one team is running the ball, there is no other way that i know of to compete unless you form your own balls.

And like the op said, this would get boring quickly imho.

If anyone knows counters other than that, ide love to hear it. I dont want to turn my 5 maninto one of these boring turtles

“turtle balls”… are great tactics with small groups, but only when combined with good movement and using high ground. You only have to turtle for a few seconds to stack boons then you can spread out and spread out the damage from aoe. the counter to this with the big turtle ball is to always focus fire by calling targets. If the larger turtle ball is not doing this your smaller group can wipe them with your own focus fire or stall them for a while. Stalling and enemy helps stop their momentum, and if 5-10 players can stall a 30+ person zerg at a 5 point supply camp for even a few minutes it can be the difference between successfully defending another point or losing it.

But this isn’t really what you are asking. I read your question more as, How does an unorganized group(even if it is larger) defeat a smaller enemy group that uses tactics and synergies and strategies without siege? The answer to that question is, you, don’t

Turtle balls are incredibly easy to break. The only time they work is against noobs or when you have superior numbers, in which case you should win anyways given equal skill.

eithinan.9841:

(…)
But this isn’t really what you are asking. I read your question more as, How does an unorganized group(even if it is larger) defeat a smaller enemy group that uses tactics and synergies and strategies without siege? The answer to that question is, you, don’t

I would rather say "need X players to flank them from Y position, or get in a hight possition building a AC and then flank them, " what i want to say is ideas should appear in the map/local chat, players should get organizied at that momment even if it is necessary to get back a little, the problem i find in this is that needs to be executed fast and people still have to accept or ponder your comment.

Can someone define what “the meta” is in gaming?

“Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

covenn.7165:

Turtle balls are incredibly easy to break. The only time they work is against noobs or when you have superior numbers, in which case you should win anyways given equal skill.

Mmm, im not a newb (12K+ kills WvW) and i ran into a group my 5 man couldnt break.

1 mesmer, 2 thief, 1 condition removeing warrior, 1 elementalist, 1 ranger.

All they would do is ball up, if we went in they would just AOE the hell of us. If we tried to range em, the thieves would burst out and kill the range and fall back into the ball if they got in trouble.

Those thieves should have gotten assisted on and burst down when they left the ball, and ranged shouldn’t have been so squishy that they died to two thieves like that to begin with. Not only that, they weren’t even running a guardian and you still couldn’t crack it?

covenn.7165:

Those thieves should have gotten assisted on and burst down when they left the ball, and ranged shouldn’t have been so squishy that they died to two thieves like that to begin with. Not only that, they weren’t even running a guardian and you still couldn’t crack it?

Well my group was 2 thieves, 1 d/d ellies, 1 warrior, 1 engineer (we made him play his mesmer after, but didnt get a chance for a rematch).

Problem is our thieves switch to s/b to try to cluster bomb em, our thieves are exposed for steal/cnd/backstab x 2. thats insta gib on us.

Yea we might take out 1 or two of thier thieves, but they would just move the ball on top of them and res. Rinse repeat.

It is surprising that this game is so “pro-zerg”.

• AE only hits 5 people
• A handful of coordinated elementalists can render all ranged attacks, including siege, useless
• Retaliation murders one vs many but is useless for many vs one.
• No defense XP for few vs many because they probably won’t get a kill, but the many will get great XP for sacking the fort.
• Zergs have ample supply to bust through gates with multiple golems and rams. Gates melt faster than defense can respond.

They SAY that they used DAOC as a model for WvW, but DAOC had no AE limits. 5 people defending a fort against 25 attackers could be very dangerous if they had good AE.

GW2 has nothing I can think of that serves as anti-zerg.

If this game had no AE limits, the damage from it would have to take a massive nerf across the board. If they uncapped my AE, I could wipe a zerg by myself at a choke point.

Not to mention that one of the worst places to try and defend from is on top of the walls. Yet it is one of the only places some can try to do just that.

Slamz.5376:

It is surprising that this game is so “pro-zerg”.

• AE only hits 5 people
• A handful of coordinated elementalists can render all ranged attacks, including siege, useless
• Retaliation murders one vs many but is useless for many vs one.
• No defense XP for few vs many because they probably won’t get a kill, but the many will get great XP for sacking the fort.
• Zergs have ample supply to bust through gates with multiple golems and rams. Gates melt faster than defense can respond.

They SAY that they used DAOC as a model for WvW, but DAOC had no AE limits. 5 people defending a fort against 25 attackers could be very dangerous if they had good AE.

GW2 has nothing I can think of that serves as anti-zerg.

Build siege…

Sorry, but no. Stability is not 100% uptime on a big zerg and it’s perfectly possible to deal with it.

While ArenaNet has made many silly design decisions (5 target limit), the blob is not impossible to break if you play against it properly.

Classically meta-gaming would refer to creating rules on top of what exists in the game. Examples of this in the context of GW2 would be things like “no fighting in JPs” or “location X on the maps are designated for 1v1 fighting”.

For some reason it appears that players here in GW2 are using the term in an extremely broad sense to mean strategies and tactics that are common.

Yes, I think it is taking on more of the term of “thinking outside the box”.

covenn.7165:

If this game had no AE limits, the damage from it would have to take a massive nerf across the board. If they uncapped my AE, I could wipe a zerg by myself at a choke point.

I think that would be a good thing, if aoe would wipe an entire zerg.

Having aoe only hit 5 people in a game mode where one of the most common situations is fighting 20+ people in one place at once is the most ridiculous game mechanic I’ve ever heard. They are encouraging us to abuse their own mechanics by balling up with a lot of people in a small place.

I think the only people that are actually HAPPY with this metagame in wvw are the people who only care about pushing game mechanics to be as effective as possible.
Which I also think is a good thing, don’t get me wrong, people should strive to be effective in these games. But their loyalty to the metagame is only to the fact it IS the metagame, not to the actual tactics being used.

covenn.7165:

If this game had no AE limits, the damage from it would have to take a massive nerf across the board. If they uncapped my AE, I could wipe a zerg by myself at a choke point.

Yes, that is exactly how DAOC worked. It was feasible one for guy with really good AE to wipe a zerg if they all clumped up nicely.

Aeolus.3615:

Build siege…

5 coordinated elementalists within the zerg running this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds

Your siege is 100% useless. It blocks trebuchets, catapults, ballistas, arrow carts, everything.

Turtles stopped being “meta” a long time ago in WvW because they are easy to break. It has recently come back in vogue for some reason, but I doubt it will last.

Slamz.5376:

Aeolus.3615:

Build siege…

5 coordinated elementalists within the zerg running this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds

Your siege is 100% useless. It blocks trebuchets, catapults, ballistas, arrow carts, everything.

Arrow cart is ground targeted, doesn´t get blocked.

Slamz.5376:

covenn.7165:

If this game had no AE limits, the damage from it would have to take a massive nerf across the board. If they uncapped my AE, I could wipe a zerg by myself at a choke point.

Yes, that is exactly how DAOC worked. It was feasible one for guy with really good AE to wipe a zerg if they all clumped up nicely.

Yeah, but the reason why is was fairly balanced in DAOC was due to the interrupt system. This game does not have that.

Not only that the heavy hitting AOE wasn’t ranged, it was pbaoe and you couldnt move while PBAOEing.

Slamz.5376:

Aeolus.3615:

Build siege…

5 coordinated elementalists within the zerg running this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds

Your siege is 100% useless. It blocks trebuchets, catapults, ballistas, arrow carts, everything.

The one and only reason the ever use a focus.

Who cares, attack multiple spots at the same time and make this useless. If they are protecting siege outside of the walls, then push out and get them or portal bomb them.

Sigh, I main a warrior who jumps into zergs a lot. Just cause you aren’t able to fight larger #s you want them to uh, nerf The large #s? Also aoe dmg can be ridiculous, good luck defending a keep lord or running through a gate full of aoe. either they nerf aoe dmg to kitten, or put a cap. If anything the cap is better for you

It would probably add too much overhead given how poorly optimized the code seems to be at this time, but would this be a potential solution to break up balls without making things over powered on other situations?

AE damage hits 5 targets or 1/3rd of the players in the area of effect, whichever is greater (rounding up).

0-15 = 5 targets hit
16-18 = 6 targets hit
19-21 = 7 targets hit
22-24 = 8 targets hit

So on….

Tyaen.5148:

Turtles stopped being “meta” a long time ago in WvW because they are easy to break. It has recently come back in vogue for some reason, but I doubt it will last.

So in a 5v5 or 7v7. How do u break a turtle in an open field? Other than turtling yourself. Turtle vs turtle is boring.

Rinzler.8072:

Tyaen.5148:

Turtles stopped being “meta” a long time ago in WvW because they are easy to break. It has recently come back in vogue for some reason, but I doubt it will last.

So in a 5v5 or 7v7. How do u break a turtle in an open field? Other than turtling yourself. Turtle vs turtle is boring.

Fears work very well on alot of turtles. Confusion also helps.

My Necro, with well of corruption turns all the boons of a Turtle into conditions which really helps break up the group as well. It’s also traited to be unblockable so it makes it even more effective.

Magni.2835:

Classically meta-gaming would refer to creating rules on top of what exists in the game. Examples of this in the context of GW2 would be things like “no fighting in JPs” or “location X on the maps are designated for 1v1 fighting”.

For some reason it appears that players here in GW2 are using the term in an extremely broad sense to mean strategies and tactics that are common.

It comes from GW1 usage of the term. “The Meta” was basically the current set of builds that was dominating the game, especially in Guild vs Guild matches. GW1 had a much more flexible system, in which you could pick any 8 skills in your 2 professions, with just a few restrictions (such as only 1 elite). For GvG, the team builds most often used were considered the current meta (the builds pretty much determining your strategy and tactics).

covenn.7165:

Slamz.5376:

Aeolus.3615:

Build siege…

5 coordinated elementalists within the zerg running this: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swirling_Winds

Your siege is 100% useless. It blocks trebuchets, catapults, ballistas, arrow carts, everything.

The one and only reason the ever use a focus.

Who cares, attack multiple spots at the same time and make this useless. If they are protecting siege outside of the walls, then push out and get them or portal bomb them.

I would cast “Shield of the Avenger” and turn to be a Bubblemancer and earn my place in Avengers 3.

Slamz.5376:

It is surprising that this game is so “pro-zerg”.

• AE only hits 5 people
• A handful of coordinated elementalists can render all ranged attacks, including siege, useless
• Retaliation murders one vs many but is useless for many vs one.
• No defense XP for few vs many because they probably won’t get a kill, but the many will get great XP for sacking the fort.
• Zergs have ample supply to bust through gates with multiple golems and rams. Gates melt faster than defense can respond.

They SAY that they used DAOC as a model for WvW, but DAOC had no AE limits. 5 people defending a fort against 25 attackers could be very dangerous if they had good AE.

GW2 has nothing I can think of that serves as anti-zerg.

Well said, but the biggest offender is all the rezzing a Zerg can do. Kill someone? Nevermind, he’ll be rezzed within 5 seconds.

covenn.7165:

Who cares, attack multiple spots at the same time and make this useless. If they are protecting siege outside of the walls, then push out and get them or portal bomb them.

If you can “rush out and get them” then it’s zerg versus zerg. Your argument in invalid.

The question is what can a non-zerg do to thwart or hold off a zerg. There are 5 of you inside with access to all the siege you want. There are 25 outside, including competent elementalists running swirling winds. What do you do?

If the answer is “nothing; wait for the friendly zerg to show up” then we might as well just not have forts because the game will just be open field zerg on zerg fights.

I disagree. You can kill ele’s on siege outside or the siege itself without a zerg.

I disagree. You can kill ele’s on siege outside or the siege itself without a zerg.

I disagree. You can kill ele’s on siege outside or the siege itself without a zerg.

Tested the swirling winds yesterday and it’s true, everyone still takes damage from the arrow cart. Didn’t get to try it with the others. 30 Second recharge on this, means it can be up at the most 30% of the time. Would take 4 eles to keep it up, and they would be gimped by having to use the worst weapon and having to pair it with crappy scepter.

I’ve almost never seen an ele use focus in WvW. I have pulled it out a couple of times, but avoid it because we can’t weapon swap and if I can’t get out of combat mode, I’m using a piece of crap as my off-hand.

You’ll start seeing focus a lot more in sieges.

3 eles are enough to completely shut down incoming fire from 1 trebuchet (you don’t need 100% uptime, you just need enough uptime to stop each incoming treb shot). So if you have, say, 1 treb in your fort, the enemy zerg can show up, drop a counter treb within range and then use swirling winds on all of your treb hits against them while killing your treb.

The net result is that it’s one more “pro-zerg” measure in the game. The zerg should always be able to provide enough elementalists to protect their siege, rendering a skeleton fort defense force largely useless. You can stop them from using rams but you won’t be able to stop their catapults or trebuchets.

The only thing that can stop a zerg force using catapults/trebs is another zerg force capable of overwhelming them in the field. As more elementalists catch on, the ability to “counter-treb” a zerg force is becoming a thing of the past.