Guild Wars 2

Firstly, thank <deity> that there will be a mix of BLs. What a relief.

The logical question to ask now is what should be the 3rd BL?

Could EOTM (or a modified version of it) be it? An expanded version of Obsidian Sanctum? Or should it be another entirely new map?

My ideal version of WVW from a map design POV would have been how the original DAOC did it — with 3 geographically unique maps that were distinct parts of a larger land mass, united by a common central map (which could be existing EB).

Second choice would be a new map based on obsidian sanctum, ie: undergound, with large cavern areas, and supported gliding.

Other ideas?

EoTM would be… problematic… to convert to WvW since it has no real dolly routes (or camps for that matter) and there is a heavy focus on capping the border keeps, which in a PPT enviroment will probably mean indefinate spawncamping after the fact.

Personally I would still have seen 3 versions of alpine sharing the same basic design:
- Alpine, current map with updated visuals.
- Desert, like alpine but with desert statics and tweaked keeps (ie current designs, if somewhat smaller to fit Alpine).
- Jungle, with new statics from HoT and giant trees.

I would like to see a shift away from borderland style maps with a “home” server and instead shift to more maps being in the EB style.

Ideally moving to the point where we have 4 (or hopefully more) unique maps.

The maps are already inheritedly biased towards one server unless they are copy and paste 100% symmetrical. It should be anets job to try and keep which side each map favors as even as possible within each map but also across them as well.

Teraphas.6210:

I would like to see a shift away from borderland style maps with a “home” server and instead shift to more maps being in the EB style.

Ideally moving to the point where we have 4 (or hopefully more) unique maps.

The maps are already inheritedly biased towards one server unless they are copy and paste 100% symmetrical. It should be anets job to try and keep which side each map favors as even as possible within each map but also across them as well.

I agree EBG styled map would be better. EotM map is garbage for WvW and if you thought players raged over the DBL that would make it even worse.

One thing they should make sure they so not do with a new map is make it too vertical/ boxy or closed in as they did with the DBL if they want players not to rage next time. Caverns/ giant trees ect would really anger people even more so than the desert did because they want more realistic battlefields not an amusement park ride.

They need to focus on it being open, being able to use numerous strategies, attack from all directions, giving players more options for strategic play rather than removing them all. Open, flatter, Lush, and direct routes to everything will make the map more well received than the last one. Players want good fights, not gimmicky fights.

lil devils x.6071:

Teraphas.6210:

I would like to see a shift away from borderland style maps with a “home” server and instead shift to more maps being in the EB style.

Ideally moving to the point where we have 4 (or hopefully more) unique maps.

The maps are already inheritedly biased towards one server unless they are copy and paste 100% symmetrical. It should be anets job to try and keep which side each map favors as even as possible within each map but also across them as well.

I agree EBG styled map would be better. EotM map is garbage for WvW and if you thought players raged over the DBL that would make it even worse.

One thing they should make sure they so not do with a new map is make it too vertical/ boxy or closed in as they did with the DBL if they want players not to rage next time. Caverns/ giant trees ect would really anger people even more so than the desert did because they want more realistic battlefields not an amusement park ride.

They need to focus on it being open, being able to use numerous strategies, attack from all directions, giving players more options for strategic play rather than removing them all. Open, flatter, Lush, and direct routes to everything will make the map more well received than the last one. Players want good fights, not gimmicky fights.

Not sure it needs to be open and flat per se.

The major flaw with desert in its original form was that all the action took place in a ring around the map and didn’t go into the center unless the event was running. With the oasis event gone and the smoothing that occurred before the switch to alpine really opened the center of the map as a transfer point. That is much improved over having to run the full perimeter to reach the other side of the map.

Alpine to me is too small with the focus of majority of conflict occurring in the bottom half to 2/3rd of the map . Draw a circle which passes thru the Lord’s room of all 3 keeps and that is where most conflicts occur minus the circle connecting the ruins.

Desert to me is slightly too big. Again draw a ring thru all 3 keeps and a second to contain the oasis and between those was the conflict zone. It was also the only reliable movement path and zerg either moved clockwise or Counter. Unfortunately most all ran the same direction leading to few chance encounters. The smoothing did seem to help and allow you to ‘hunt’ enemy forces by cutting thru places you couldn’t before or could only have used in one direction before.

EB to me is the best example simply because stonemist works to have people care about the center of the map vs avoiding it or just passing thru like desert and alpine.

Tldr to me the terrain can be varied and not just flat and open as long as there are no “one way streets” but more importantly a focal objective to capture at the center of the map and not a map mechanic

Teraphas.6210:

lil devils x.6071:

Teraphas.6210:

I would like to see a shift away from borderland style maps with a “home” server and instead shift to more maps being in the EB style.

Ideally moving to the point where we have 4 (or hopefully more) unique maps.

The maps are already inheritedly biased towards one server unless they are copy and paste 100% symmetrical. It should be anets job to try and keep which side each map favors as even as possible within each map but also across them as well.

I agree EBG styled map would be better. EotM map is garbage for WvW and if you thought players raged over the DBL that would make it even worse.

One thing they should make sure they so not do with a new map is make it too vertical/ boxy or closed in as they did with the DBL if they want players not to rage next time. Caverns/ giant trees ect would really anger people even more so than the desert did because they want more realistic battlefields not an amusement park ride.

They need to focus on it being open, being able to use numerous strategies, attack from all directions, giving players more options for strategic play rather than removing them all. Open, flatter, Lush, and direct routes to everything will make the map more well received than the last one. Players want good fights, not gimmicky fights.

Not sure it needs to be open and flat per se.

The major flaw with desert in its original form was that all the action took place in a ring around the map and didn’t go into the center unless the event was running. With the oasis event gone and the smoothing that occurred before the switch to alpine really opened the center of the map as a transfer point. That is much improved over having to run the full perimeter to reach the other side of the map.

Alpine to me is too small with the focus of majority of conflict occurring in the bottom half to 2/3rd of the map . Draw a circle which passes thru the Lord’s room of all 3 keeps and that is where most conflicts occur minus the circle connecting the ruins.

Desert to me is slightly too big. Again draw a ring thru all 3 keeps and a second to contain the oasis and between those was the conflict zone. It was also the only reliable movement path and zerg either moved clockwise or Counter. Unfortunately most all ran the same direction leading to few chance encounters. The smoothing did seem to help and allow you to ‘hunt’ enemy forces by cutting thru places you couldn’t before or could only have used in one direction before.

EB to me is the best example simply because stonemist works to have people care about the center of the map vs avoiding it or just passing thru like desert and alpine.

Tldr to me the terrain can be varied and not just flat and open as long as there are no “one way streets” but more importantly a focal objective to capture at the center of the map and not a map mechanic

The actual number one complaint about the DBL was it was too big, too vertical and too closed off. Players resoundingly said they hated those aspects the most, go read back through the many months complaints on these forums about them and why players would not touch them. So yes, flatter and open are the most important factors here. Center of the map is not as relevant as objectives just being closer together. People do not care as much as to what is actually in the center of the map, they care about the player experience straight out of spawn and the amount of time they spend in the PvP action vs out of it. That is why direct routes are so important with minimal obstacles between getting where you need to go fast.

Where objectives are important as well but not by " center" but instead by strategic value to what is around them, one of the primary complaints about the structure locations was they lacked strategic value. basically what impact does that structure have on the surrounding structures. Being able to hit other objectives from each objective is important as well.

Designing maps from the player experience is better than thinking about things Like “center”, Straight out of spawn, 3 seconds, hit an objective. Why do you want to fight over that objective? What is the impact of owning that objective in relation to the other objectives on the map? How well does each class play while fighting over this objective? In what way does this objective benefit each class’s play styles and skills? How well does each type of player( roamer, havoc or zerg ) play in this area? Is there plenty of room for strategic battles and can the objective be attacked by/from numerous methods and directions to increase strategic options? 3 seconds.. next objective, rinse and repeat. what is actually in the center isn’t as important as to how the map actually plays.

If they could find a good central objective for bl maps instead of making a terrible one and deactivating it/leaving it forever, I would be happy to see a new bl.
New map ideas in general:
Kaineng City: Urban battlefields are always very cool. This could be done in an ebg or bl style and still be awesome.
Volcanic: Like the fire keep but on a large scale. It could have an eruption event that occurs during prime time several times a week.
Jungle: I don’t like this because then our 3 bls will be eotm.
Cavern: this could be cool as long as it wasn’t too confusing or confined. Small tunnels for havocs and large main tunnels for zergs.

Cecilia.5179:

If they could find a good central objective for bl maps instead of making a terrible one and deactivating it/leaving it forever, I would be happy to see a new bl.
New map ideas in general:
Kaineng City: Urban battlefields are always very cool. This could be done in an ebg or bl style and still be awesome.
Volcanic: Like the fire keep but on a large scale. It could have an eruption event that occurs during prime time several times a week.
Jungle: I don’t like this because then our 3 bls will be eotm.
Cavern: this could be cool as long as it wasn’t too confusing or confined. Small tunnels for havocs and large main tunnels for zergs.

See now I think A cavern would not be so bad if it were more open like Dredge on EBG, but not taking up too much of the map. Small tunnels would be a problem because it creates too many escape routes. It is hard enough trying to chase a guy all the way through the big tunnel, but if they had small tunnels as well that would just make it too easy to avoid combat. Since there is no collision detection among players, large groups would still have the advantage in a small tunnel vs a havoc anyhow so it doesn’t actually have the same strategic impact it would have in a game where players cannot stack on one another. Yes it forces them into a more confined space, but it does the same to the havoc group, just the larger group has more fire power.

I thought about the idea of a volcano map, but I would want that one to replace the desert map instead.. ( they could put the volcano in pace of their broken event on DBL haha!)

I am all about wanting a map with the rainbows, flowers and unicorns. With so much ugliness in war, it would brighten up the place to have our battles in a cheerful, happy environment ! XD

Now if they made the keeps with vine walls but making sure you have easy access to all the levels of keeps like you do on the ABLS ( the keep designs on the DBL are a whole other set of complaints) you could make a jungle/ sylvari style Keep that would be pretty cool. They just need to think of keeps as more like Garrison, and less like DBL keeps in layout to keep them fun.

scerevisiae.1972:

Second choice would be a new map based on obsidian sanctum, ie: undergound, with large cavern areas, and supported gliding.

Other ideas?

Because it’s not bad enough we’re getting stuck again with a flipping Desert, now you want us to spend hours in a literal hole in the ground??????

FFS!

DeWolfe.2174:

scerevisiae.1972:

Second choice would be a new map based on obsidian sanctum, ie: undergound, with large cavern areas, and supported gliding.

Other ideas?

Because it’s not bad enough we’re getting stuck again with a flipping Desert, now you want us to spend hours in a literal hole in the ground??????

FFS!

Yea, I don’t think some here realize what made players so angry about the DBL… the keeps being too closed in and boxy already made many /unistall so now they want to add more of that?!

too big, too vertical and too boxy were the main complaints with the map design, then there was the issue of how different classes could be played in the various zones and how they could not use their skills due to topography.

scerevisiae.1972:

Firstly, thank <deity> that there will be a mix of BLs. What a relief.

The logical question to ask now is what should be the 3rd BL?

Could EOTM (or a modified version of it) be it? An expanded version of Obsidian Sanctum? Or should it be another entirely new map?

My ideal version of WVW from a map design POV would have been how the original DAOC did it — with 3 geographically unique maps that were distinct parts of a larger land mass, united by a common central map (which could be existing EB).

Second choice would be a new map based on obsidian sanctum, ie: undergound, with large cavern areas, and supported gliding.

Other ideas?

I actually liked old ABL maps with lake in middle and underwater battles.

Slowly the community is gravitating towards the solution the minority of us were defending 2 years ago.

Next I expect the majority will ask for a proper implementation of Edge of the Mist into WvW., something that should have been done from the beginning

I love speculating about things like new map designs. So no offense… but… these ideas are terrible!

Jungle? Caverns? That sounds hard to get around in. And if you could sum up the dislike of DBL in one phrase it would be that it is hard to get around in.

(I suppose a jungle theme could work if it were open and not simply paths through the jungle. Like that area with the dinosaurs in Eye of the North, I think it was Tarnished Coast.)

Kaineng City? I loved Factions – it was my favorite of GW1. But man did I hate Kaineng City. It had the same problem DBL has, you could see where you needed to go, but you couldn’t get there! That is definitely what we don’t need in WvW. One of the most joyful experiences in GW 1 was when you came out of the city into Pongmei Valley, oh man I still remember how relieved I was.

What we don’t need is verticality and maze like. Yes, we do need open and flat. Not flat like a pancake. Rolling hills are ok. But no cliffs, canyons, mazes, trenches, tunnels, winding paths, etc.

And it needs to be bright and sunny. With green, lots of green. Maybe like lil devils said, rainbows and unicorns. Maybe like the green areas of Narnia. Hey, maybe a fairy tale setting.

Oh, and the keeps are a whole different discussion. The keeps on DBL are as bad as the map itself. They also need to be more open.

Xillllix.3485:

Slowly the community is gravitating towards the solution the minority of us were defending 2 years ago.

Next I expect the majority will ask for a proper implementation of Edge of the Mist into WvW., something that should have been done from the beginning

Most want EotM to stay the hell away from WvW, that was the only reason it did not replace WvW long ago as their plan for the mega server WvW…

The only way that would happen is if they kill off the current WvW population and they no longer care to stop it.