Guild Wars 2

My guild has enjoyed doing havoc tactics for almost 3 years now. It is our preferred way of playing wvw: we are not zerglings nor are we irrelevant duelers. We want our hidden actions to matter to our server.

In the past, we ran opposite or alongside the main zerg in a sneaky manner to either try to raise an alarm or take a different objective. If our home BL or home area in EBG was getting hammered by a server, we would go to that server’s BL and take objectives or raise an alarm to get them to back off. This would often take the form of golem rushes or strategic siege for big objectives. We liked taking the objectives, but nothing would get us laughing more than the 3-5 of us getting zerged down by 20+ enemies called from another map. And any enemy scouts in the objectives pretty much had to call them, because we could fight off even numbers and knew where to place siege.

Now, there are no sneaky routes. Each tower or keep has enhanced defenses on the outer, making it easy for 1 scout or auto-defenses to destroy our siege (we probably just need to figure out better placement); not to mention that our size prevents us from making more than 2 siege weapons without having to run for 10 min to a camp. The towers are too far from keeps to have any impact on them; no more trebuchet fire from within one to hit another. The lords are very much buffed with loads of cc and toughness that make killing them take a much longer time; the fire and air keep lords can kill us because of the auto-defenses that constantly burn or cc us. If even a couple of enemies come in to fight, it’s almost a sure bet that we will wipe; no longer is the server blob required to be called in.

So the impact of a havoc squad now is small. This seems to be the intention of the revamped wvw: limiting havoc squads to sentries, shrines, camps, maybe towers, and a keep if no enemy on their server is awake. Once a keep or tower reaches t3, not even the zerg commander really wants to hit it, much less a havoc squad.

What I would say is that havoc needs to have a bigger impact. Some suggestions under this theme: provide ways for sabotage.

1. What if there was a perilous sewer system that runs underneath a tower to a keep that a havoc group (but not a solo roamer) could traverse to an object under the keep? This object, when activated/destroyed, would put a 5-minute poison cloud/burning or blinding smoke/siege disable within the tower/keep. There would be no way for the group to go above ground into the keep, however; they would need to run back to the tower or waypoint back.

2. What if instead of merely taking supply camps and having a dolyak sit there waiting for the tower/keep to be taken, there is a way to send that dolyak (using 100 supply) to the enemy structure which, upon reaching the objective, destroys 100 supply? The dolyak would need to be ignored by the enemy npc gate guards.

3. The shrines surrounding a keep should start making the autodefenses turn against the keep if all three are captured by one enemy server. For example, the fire keep defenses would start shooting npc guards and the champ.

4. Enemy sentries should have the ability to kill an unguarded dolyak handily.

These suggestions would make the smaller tactical things on the maps more meaningful instead of merely karma/rank points, and throw a bone to us havoc groups. We are diabolical in our intent to cause mayhem; but if you don’t want us taking zerg objectives like keeps and castles, then at least create other outlets that restore our evil laughter grins.

All I see in this thread is “we’re not zerglings but we’re a smaller group of zerglings because we like to PvD but we don’t like to be a blob because that’s so 2015. Things are hard to take now because we can’t just place some rams or catas and ninja stuff without any kind of opposition so we want it to be changed so that we can take things without a fight again.”

Yes WvW has changed and in many ways for the worse, often times favoring larger groups. But that doesn’t mean havoc is irrelevant it just means you need to develop better strategies and maybe to do something other than PvD or gank solos. Maybe you’re not what I’m assuming you are but that’s sure what it sounds like from the looks of the OP.

If anything is dead it’s solo roaming. Blobbing and small scale are still plenty active with what remains of the community and the veterans who make the best of what WvW is and has become.

SpellOfIniquity, you are misunderstanding me. I don’t care if they don’t want to make taking objectives easier; ktrain gets boring. I just want what havoc does now to matter more in wvw tactics in this new wvw.

The purpose of havoc is to confuse and stress defenders, making them panic and call for help. But with the lack of sneaky tactics (some places you cannot help but get spotted by sentries) and easier-to-defend objectives, defenders know where to go and how many are there; the skeleton defense crews on the map can quickly respond without the need for additional help. With sabotage, a havoc crew can tilt the balance of a map or fight without having to be a part of the 30v30.

The suggestions I made just put more meaning behind what’s already been established.

You guys sound like my worst nightmare…

I’m the home BL scout and routinely have to defend against groups of up to 5, mostly alone. I loathe calling in the forces from other maps because, obviously, they’re busy.

However, I’m disappointed with your resolve, so to speak. When things are quiet, I head to enemy BLs—I’ve taken literally everything on the map in groups as small as 2, even things that were defended. Even without using the cheesy proxy cata spots, knocking down a wall is simple if you don’t try to rush it. A long range cata is almost impossible to counter. 2 of them with alternating bubbles are a sure bet, even if you use 2 regulars for supply reasons. If you really must go fast, learn how to traverse the map without being scouted by sentries and be prepared to make a few passes if you get caught. As for the bosses…only Airkeep is really annoying to me, but it’s not too hard. Both Air and Firekeep can be done easily by juggling aggro—having anyone who’s low back out of combat to heal up. Earthkeep is much easier, just takes a bit.

However, since camps generate at least 38 PPT now, you’re honestly having a huge impact in taking them. The impact to effort ratio is way better than trying to slog through a keep. Unless the enemy server is totally mia, it’s never the right decision to havoc a reinforced or fortified keep.

edit: Both servers can reach any point on the map without being spotted by a sentry, though it’s easier for the eastern server. The routes do take longer but that is to be expected.

First of all I never post, after 3 years of playing I have to say this…I completely agree with the OP. What used to be a lot fun in a 3-5 Havoc squad isn’t anymore. Increased supply demand (I know some have been relaxed a little) and the distance to travel between objectives to camps to resupply…crazy. That’s with a guild where we get extra supply when we claim it. Map is clunky…running around flat out sucks much of the time. There are just too many switchbacks between point A and point B. All of these things kill it for any Havoc on a busy server. By the time we have walls/gates down, the opposing tag has responded and…well we all know how that ends. I will throw that the new maps are not all bad, I really like some of the designs.

I am happy to see someone talking about the small havoc issues and bringing some ideas and potential resolutions to the problem instead of just complaining, or like the other poster… just trolling something. Keep it up!

Sounds like you guys need to work on your siege placement and clearing walls. A good 5 man group will not be stopped by a single scout.

You guys are still not quite understanding. Taking objectives is only part of what havoc should do. Yes we will eventually find those special spots where the walls will go down, and we will take our share of objectives.

But here are my main points:

I want to help our zerg in more ways than just enter the huge fights.

I want to help our defenders by drawing forces off our home areas.

I want to drive the enemy defenders crazy by making them pay attention to the 3-5 of us.

I want to change the direction of the enemy zerg because a couple of defenders can’t stop us.

In other words, just taking objectives and contesting waypoints has too long been the only thing.

You should be able to do all of those things, is what I’m saying. Whatever the problem is, I don’t think it’s the map—others are quite successful in those areas.

@Darce
Why would you want to be able to flip something consistently before the other tag responds? If you’re starting on a full hp wall, your enemies should notice before you have it down. Successful havoc doesn’t always end in a cap.

Oogabooga.3812:

snip

Number 4 is a good suggestion, but the rest is more pve that can be exploited by bigger servers disproportionally better than by smaller servers, stuffing even more steamroll-y goodness into wvw.

Um..
OP I understand your frustration. My guild has always done what you do, but have grown to a point where sneaky tactics are almost impossible. We mitigate the problem by running smaller groups within our large that can “Voltron” if needed. The new BL’s are really not that scary once you get to know them, and being a guild that understands them makes you a very powerful force in the current (yawn) EBG fites meta.

I suggest Divide and Conquer. Take some time to find all the sneaky spots, and, trust me, there are many that haven’t even been used yet. Hit multiple objectives at the same time but be ready to leave if it’s something too big. Bear in mind there is usually only one group and a few neckbeards facing you. Be ready to run and ditch a blob, and you will be able to because they don’t know the new BL’s.

Keep coming back because, at the end of the day, the group that came to deal with you just wants to get back to EBG asap.

Most organized raid groups have a set amount of time and days they play.

You win either way because they leave or you made them play “Running Simulator” for their entire Raid Time.

Happy Hunting.

P.S. Everybody hates my guild

The state of havoc is actually pretty good right now. It’s not the same as it was, it’s different. The new maps suck, but they actually help havoc with the size and lack of waypoints. It much harder for defenders to respond, unless they have emergency waypoint. Keeps are stupid hard, but are easier to kill the Lord with a 5 man than a 50 man. I find its much easier to avoid enemy contact on them new maps, and have soloed every tower on the map. Keeps are different, and should be. Also supply isn’t a problem if your creative.

An interesting question: Do you guys find its harder these days to recruit people for small roaming/havoc guild than before with the new BLs? I felt like I had better luck in the past I guess. Maybe player population has more to do with it?

I and a few other people in my guild have been soloing/ small man roaming since HoT launch so I don’t see the point?

One of them runs a condi build and never kills barricades.

Catas were reduced in supply already

You can treb air keep inner/outer from safe spots

You can cata fire keep outer from safe spots

You can 2 man air keep & fire keep , solo earth keep and all towers

Infusion.7149:

I and a few other people in my guild have been soloing/ small man roaming since HoT launch so I don’t see the point?

One of them runs a condi build and never kills barricades.

Catas were reduced in supply already

You can treb air keep inner/outer from safe spots

You can cata fire keep outer from safe spots

You can 2 man air keep & fire keep , solo earth keep and all towers

To make life easier for the people who have a hard time winning a 1v1 let alone killing an NPC.

There used to be a lot of small and mid size guilds running consistant groups of 5, 10, 15 and 20 players that would not go above 20ish except when pugging. Those are almost all gone now due to guild hall grind, tactivator mechanics, etc.

There are just a few die-hards left, kinda sad because those groups tended to be the best havoc and main zerg support. Their abscence severly limits tactics, strategies and overall fights in WVW.

I really used to enjoy going 40 v 40 then having one of those groups show up on either side to swing the tide of battle with seconds to spare or be still wiped by the better team and I have been on all ends of this. These were truly epic and best encounters of what WVW had to offer which is now mostly gone.

RodOfDeath.5247:

An interesting question: Do you guys find its harder these days to recruit people for small roaming/havoc guild than before with the new BLs? I felt like I had better luck in the past I guess. Maybe player population has more to do with it?

Much much harder, for sure!

Congrats on being one of the few small man havok guilds that stayed together after HoT guild changes crushed the rest of us out.

All that hard work my havok guild did the first time around to build the guild (most of us used cash/gem sales) was lost with HoT, I didn’t blame them for quitting shortly after.