Guild Wars 2

I just came back to the game only to find that a bunch of hardcore wvw guilds have gone to yaks bend and pretty much own everything in wvw 24/7 SoS and FA don’t even stand a chance of winning agaisnt their numbers why is anet allowing people to all xfer to one server so they can just win all the time while the other 2 have to sit at spawn crying about it in chat..

It has always been the case over and over at least for WvW NA side for a long time. Players just stack onto one server for easy wins. Somehow majority found it more fun to beat down doors or stuck in queues staring at their high PPT score.

Anet did implement the new population calculation for transfer to count in only WvW population and also prevent overstacking by marking some servers full. Unfortunately it just happened a bit too late. YB already got into the overstacked state before it was implemented.

For now, you can only hope for the slow adjustment of population flow to make things right. Or you just transfer yourself into more balanced tiers.

only reason im staying on SoS is for the oceanic group, no other server has a bigger group so if i move wvw will be even more dead for me :/

Well, if you play OCX, I think you’d better stay on SoS. We have a pretty good OCX presence here and can compete without any problem with YB.

Just ignore the weekly PPT war. It is mostly NA that is suffering from this ridiculous overstacking.

About the only thing that FA is looking forward to is when Anet’s new population calculator will change FA from full, since so many guilds have dropped to better(lower) tiers.

If OCX – could check and see what comes of the meeting (other thread)…

Yeah, I’m on SoS too and I really can’t wait until it balances out a bit. Right now we (and FA I would assume) just feel so constrained in a number of timezones that it makes it difficult to play and then to have success when we do come out of the woodwork. It would be cool if we could coordinate something with YB to get it balanced out faster, cause that would probably be a lot more fun for all of us tbh.

Being on FA its tough to have cows hitting me as I WP into EB. The PPT thing is crazy, YB is so large now they try to fight our legendary defenders or find the lost souls wandering out of spawn. I was at Red spawn and decided to come out the back way on the Veloka side only to see a guild stacking in the water below ready to pounce on anyone coming directly out to get into EB. Time for ANET to just manually make a move and toss the glicko in the water next to Red spawn.

Unfortunately this is what a server needs to do to climb a tier apparently. FA had a winning streak that lasted months and was unable to attain T1, now it’s YB’s turn and they are steamrolling everything and hardcore PPT’ing in a bid for T1. At least something is happening, NA T1/T2 has been stagnant far too long.

But a server shouldn’t have to win by that much of a margin in order to gain points. It’s definitely not healthy for wvw.

A tourney – just to mix things up – when multiple tiers got locked to the same matchup for so long may have helped… Or even a 1 up 1 down month long event……. The other part that hurt several servers SOS-db was the full (but not really) status. SOS full for so long, but clearly outmanned didn’t help for sure. Who knows if this would have ever happened if that change was made before t1 guilds came down……

I just thinks its slightly odd that those guilds managed to transfer to YB just before the wvw population changes were announced. Knowing full well that the leaders of this “alliance” have often bragged about the close contacts they have with some anet employees i wonder if they got some information about the changes before the rest of us did. Having also been informed that some employees " fully supported" the idea then it would seem a real possibility that this was the case.

Nightingale.8364:

I just thinks its slightly odd that those guilds managed to transfer to YB just before the wvw population changes were announced. Knowing full well that the leaders of this “alliance” have often bragged about the close contacts they have with some anet employees i wonder if they got some information about the changes before the rest of us did. Having also been informed that some employees " fully supported" the idea then it would seem a real possibility that this was the case.

The timing was so troll, but actually impeded the move. Pretty sure some got left behind when YB went full and they hadn’t moved yet (with no way to get there either)

T2 is an EOTM style experience with fewer fights and smaller rewards.

It shouldn’t take this to move tiers. This coming from a YBer. Moving up or down tiers should be far more dynamic than what we are seeing. It shouldn’t take having to destroy a tier to get movement. The fact that it does is doing terrible things to this game. I loved old T2, and played in T2 for 2 years on either SoS or YB.

The really sad thing is that both SoS and FA should have had the opportunity to play against T1 before now. SoS during their T1.5 days and FA during their ownership right after the T2/3 debacle with DB. The fact this didn’t happen points out some major flaws with Glicko and/or Glicko stacking.

Believe me when I say this is absolutely no fun for us either. Maybe you raid and there’s little to do, or perhaps you hit the sweet spot, and FA/SoS have players on map to fight.

The thing that is insane is that most nights we have smaller queues than we did when the matches were really close. Reset is terrible, but after that at most 2 maps with any queue at all, and that goes away by mid-PST.

The solidification of the glicko walls between tiers and the monumental effort it now takes to move between tiers has a lot to do with the reduced match-up variance and WvW tournaments. Remember when Anet first introduced some randomization into match-ups, NA players hated it so Anet reduced the variance.

In hindsight, more active adjustments to the variance to prevent tier locking would have affected the movement decisions of the NA population over the past two years. That would have done more to prevent guilds stacking into T1 than the new world population calculation. For example, both SoS and FA lost guilds to T1 exactly because the low variance prevents T2 servers from getting an occasional T1 server to fight.

I would love to see what happens if the map cap got reduced to about 30-40 players per map.

even is YB climbed to tier 1 i can assure you from someone who is tier 1 you will have the same problems if a tier 1 server gets put in tier 2 but worst. Sucks i know

emendez.3705:

even is YB climbed to tier 1 i can assure you from someone who is tier 1 you will have the same problems if a tier 1 server gets put in tier 2 but worst. Sucks i know

I agree because the T1 servers have better off-hours coverage than YB. That doesn’t bode well for YB either.

Even a one month “event” of 1 up 1 down would have helped if they didn’t want a tourney. That couldn’t have taken too much effort I wouldn’t think……

I agree with Liston here. While it would not alleviate all the problems, it would help with the matchup staleness that many players are feeling.

Something different to look forward to.

The way things look now the server system may have to go. The current system is already breaking what server identity players have now. Sadly that part of the game, server loyalty , is now a significantly diminished factor in wvw.

While the YB over stack does suck, it’s really not that bad. What really sucks is people leaving the tier, not playing WvW, or left game, because of it.

Even with that said, fun is still found each day I log in. Eventually YB calls in a blob of reinforcements to beat you down, but you rez and do it again.

I’m enjoying my stay here on SoS, just wish there was less drama, and more team work. Plenty of YB bags.

andysix.9640:

I just came back to the game only to find that a bunch of hardcore wvw guilds have gone to yaks bend and pretty much own everything in wvw 24/7 SoS and FA don’t even stand a chance of winning agaisnt their numbers why is anet allowing people to all xfer to one server so they can just win all the time while the other 2 have to sit at spawn crying about it in chat..

Ft. Aspenwood, until about five weeks ago, was winning every single match.

I will not surmise the reasons but I will say that FA has given up, while SoS is the same zergy-ness it needs to be in its time zones.

Don’t blame Yak’s Bend – blame Anet for not seeing what FA is doing, the state of WvW and the ridiculousness of the population/maps that are allowed to play one another.

Every WvW person knows that a server can go up or down if a few decide not to field their guilds or moves – but this out of balance can also be manipulated by players, which should show Anet that its model for WvW populations isn’t working and hasn’t been working since at least the beginning of the Second WvW season when the megaserver destroyed recruiting and so much more that was WvW.

Let’s put the attention where it needs to be – population/lag/skill-lag/bugs/trolls.

Anet needs to do more for WvW rather than relegating it to second or third place after TPvP or PvE, the latter of which doesn’t need help like the other two.

Sorry that they had almost three years before releasing a major release, but WvW has needed help from the first day and it is still not getting it. Still.

Tongku.5326:

I would love to see what happens if the map cap got reduced to about 30-40 players per map.

Not me. I have more guildies then that on one map regularly. I have no desire to turn large scale WvW into mediocre scale WvW.

Chaba.5410:

emendez.3705:

even is YB climbed to tier 1 i can assure you from someone who is tier 1 you will have the same problems if a tier 1 server gets put in tier 2 but worst. Sucks i know

I agree because the T1 servers have better off-hours coverage than YB. That doesn’t bode well for YB either.

I am not entirely certain you are aware of why they are even competitive enough to be put in the T1 discussion. The entire point is that there are both alt accounts and full guilds that were giving that coverage on T1, are now supporting YB with it.

coglin.1867:

Tongku.5326:

I would love to see what happens if the map cap got reduced to about 30-40 players per map.

Not me. I have more guildies then that on one map regularly. I have no desire to turn large scale WvW into mediocre scale WvW.

Chaba.5410:

emendez.3705:

even is YB climbed to tier 1 i can assure you from someone who is tier 1 you will have the same problems if a tier 1 server gets put in tier 2 but worst. Sucks i know

I agree because the T1 servers have better off-hours coverage than YB. That doesn’t bode well for YB either.

I am not entirely certain you are aware of why they are even competitive enough to be put in the T1 discussion. The entire point is that there are both alt accounts and full guilds that were giving that coverage on T1, are now supporting YB with it.

I am with you.

Lowering the map caps isn’t the answer, not by a long shot, not when everyone WANTS to find fights but can’t.

#Tier2DeadTier …………………………………..

atheria.2837:

Sorry that they had almost three years before releasing a major release, but WvW has needed help from the first day and it is still not getting it. Still.

This is how you know ANet doesn’t really care about WvW, or at least has no clue how to make it work well. It’s all about really easy PvE and costumes and toys from the gem store for them. Standing around Lions Arch looking pretty and messing with pointless toys is apparently more important to this ANet and most GW2 players than actually doing difficult content with other players.

Nothing in this game provides any challenging content for guilds to do together. Which for a game called Guild Wars is pretty silly.

Anyways, my guild, which was on T2, quit. Most members did chargebacks so we won’t be coming back ever. We’re going to take an mmo break till Camelot Unchained comes out, a game that’s actually designed for large scale PvP (meaning it won’t be a lackluster afterthought like it is here). I suggest you all take a good look at it.

Rynter.3975:

Anyways, my guild, which was on T2, quit. Most members did chargebacks so we won’t be coming back ever.

That’s pretty sad. You guys were on YB too, yes?

I’ll repost here what I’ve written elsewhere: "About 20 guilds have left T2 for lower tiers, including one of the T1 guilds. The number of players who have abandonned T2 is over twice the amount that OnS and TW brought from T1. "

Chaba.5410:

Rynter.3975:

Anyways, my guild, which was on T2, quit. Most members did chargebacks so we won’t be coming back ever.

That’s pretty sad. You guys were on YB too, yes?

I’ll repost here what I’ve written elsewhere: "About 20 guilds have left T2 for lower tiers, including one of the T1 guilds. The number of players who have abandonned T2 is over twice the amount that OnS and TW brought from T1. "

Yeah we were on YB. We could not get any fights in the last several weeks because FA and SoS just don’t come out. On the rare occasions they did, after getting thrashed several times they would just sit in their keeps and rain arrow carts upon us endlessly.

We essentially lost faith in ANet as a developer. They let WvW fester in this state for 3 full years without any major changes or improvements to the game mode. Now they’re finally making a new map but not addressing the most fundamental problems. The very fact that such a situation exists where servers don’t get rotated for months on end and just several guilds could ruin the WvW experience for an entire tier smells of bad design and lack of foresight. I don’t know whether ANet is incompetent or just doesn’t care, but the end result is stagnation and people leaving.

Rynter.3975:

Chaba.5410:

Rynter.3975:

Anyways, my guild, which was on T2, quit. Most members did chargebacks so we won’t be coming back ever.

That’s pretty sad. You guys were on YB too, yes?

I’ll repost here what I’ve written elsewhere: "About 20 guilds have left T2 for lower tiers, including one of the T1 guilds. The number of players who have abandonned T2 is over twice the amount that OnS and TW brought from T1. "

Yeah we were on YB. We could not get any fights in the last several weeks because FA and SoS just don’t come out. On the rare occasions they did, after getting thrashed several times they would just sit in their keeps and rain arrow carts upon us endlessly.

Now i am not in NA but reading this (quote under) and about cowing spawn point and what not, then i kind of wonder why you in any way are suprised that they stay inside? Would you come out to a mob were 50 people jump on you when you are 1?
Sometimes i think people are to blind to see what they them self create. Noone with the mind set right would jump out to a raging mob. And that have nothing to do with them being cowards, even less to do with you being awsome server. It is just the system that is very wrong that allow such bullkitten.

Jay.7546:

Being on FA its tough to have cows hitting me as I WP into EB. The PPT thing is crazy, YB is so large now they try to fight our legendary defenders or find the lost souls wandering out of spawn. I was at Red spawn and decided to come out the back way on the Veloka side only to see a guild stacking in the water below ready to pounce on anyone coming directly out to get into EB. Time for ANET to just manually make a move and toss the glicko in the water next to Red spawn.

I wonder how it went so wrong in NA. Your top tiers have set matches each week for months and months. In EU the top 10 servers have different matches each week. And servers can move up and down between the tiers very easy. Only server not touched have been SFR, but they did just drop down to second place so i guess they are on the rollercoster now as well.

^The bulk of OCX and SEA players play on NA servers instead of EU. What this has meant for NA is that servers who can beg/borrow/buy those guilds to their servers have a coverage advantage and over time have all become the top of the NA ladder based on that overnight coverage.

If purely looking at NA primetime coverage the top 9(or so) NA servers could compete with one another on a relatively(very loosely)even footing.

FA lost its OCX. We had some great guilds move from IOJ months ago to fill the OCX slot. IOJ was stagnating and getting pounded by FA and other larger servers but still moved up to 6th but that was it. IOJ was losing steam and some of its NA guilds started to leave so that left the door open for its OCX to transfer a bunch of players/guilds to FA. This strengthened that weak time slot. We were destroying T2 for months and should have had a shot at reaching T1 many times but the glicko is manipulated by T1 so we didn’t even get a sniff. Just like YB is not going to get a chance now either. FA had queues of 140 on reset for EB, 50s on the BLs. That was nuts but FA was heavy WvW. Then I think people got bored of never moving up and fighting YB with their open field siege and tower hugging tactics and endless over sieged towers. Less started coming in because it was a boring matchup and no good fights. But over the last few months YB got a ton of T1 guilds and began outnumbering us and SOS by 3 to 1 at least. Plus FA had a bit of an issue with a troll commander moving to FA and running out our OCX. His guild trolled commanders, they were throwing siege ontop of another comms rams. When tagged never coming to defend our corner. The selfish “we are getting bags” comments and “F&$% PPT” drove the other OCX guilds nuts and they began to leave the map that commander would show up in. Now its his show and no one is left. That’s what happend to FA. Maguuma seems to be the beneficiary though.

Do you guys honestly think it would be any better for fa or SOS if Tc would drop and yak go to t1 it would more the same Tc would stream roll t-2 So stop cry this issue not going to be fix until anet merge SOS and fa

I look at IOJ. ANET will let what happens, happen. There will be no intervention to save servers.

The servers, FA and SOS, will have to use their resources or methods to maintain morale to keep interest in WvW and T2 for their populations. There will be no white knight for this situation. It will play itself out.

This situation is merely Act One of what will happen.

And does the twenty guilds leaving T2 include the two guilds that are reported leaving just recently? One from FA, one from YB.

Sungtaro.6493:

And does the twenty guilds leaving T2 include the two guilds that are reported leaving just recently? One from FA, one from YB.

Nope. I started with the 15 GvG guilds that left according to their spreadsheet and counted from there. This doesn’t include individual players.

YB: EP, Hymn, Ark, AUX, BOO, fR
FA: BMO, Bae, Syn, oT, TFH, PS, VP, DN, JINX
SoS: MM, BGA, GS, Agg, GBP

Now add in LUN (YB), Rynter’s guild that quit the game (YB), and CL (FA). Up to 23 now.

There are a few unreported guilds I’m not counting, like UL from YB was rumored to have left too since they are GvG guild, but they were on break afaik. And I’m concerned for the status of TE. That might be Rynter’s guild? Then there’s HUNT (FA) which is a small-man guild that left when the GvG guilds did. I didn’t count them either.

Looks like the “Change is coming to World Populations” mechanic is causing a balanced overstacked T1, a heavily unbalanced T2, but a balanced T3 as guilds move away from T2.

At this point I wonder what’s going to happen first.

In the order I think they will happen:

YB moving up into T1 and ruining T1 balance…
FA and/or SoS dropping from T2 ruining T3 balance…
HoD pushing up into T3 and ruining T3 balance…
FA dropping it’s full status and getting transfers

Since the three T3 servers have very close glicko scores and are far enough from T2 and T4, I wonder if they’ll go the glicko manipulating path that T1 has used to keep their tier intact.

Looks like many have not learned anything from history in WVW. I truly hope that some have tranfered to balance out servers in need instead of bandwaggoning, but, alas, doesn’t appear to be happening. Just go to the next server in line and stack those. Deja Vu…

Chaba.5410:

And I’m concerned for the status of TE. That might be Rynter’s guild?

Correct. We’re done, as likely to go back to GW2 as to PlanetSide 2, which means never.

Pity, because the game at its very core is pretty kitten good, but the longer we played the more flawed design choices we began seeing in the game.

Exciton.8942:

It has always been the case over and over at least for WvW NA side for a long time. Players just stack onto one server for easy wins. Somehow majority found it more fun to beat down doors or stuck in queues staring at their high PPT score.

Anet did implement the new population calculation for transfer to count in only WvW population and also prevent overstacking by marking some servers full. Unfortunately it just happened a bit too late. YB already got into the overstacked state before it was implemented.

For now, you can only hope for the slow adjustment of population flow to make things right. Or you just transfer yourself into more balanced tiers.

If any thing FA was overstaking for a good bit of time till the point of too high of a Q then FA start to bleed guilds. Then yb got a major boost from from T1 and now YB is prime to go to T1. Its odd how it works out a world gets ppl and often gets overstacked then you start to lose guilds becuse there are too many ppl and the world start to decline. This has happen with FA i want to say 5 times now? Once yb goes to T1 and if the one that drops is not so bad i think T2 will go back to being super competitive. I think T3 is starting to fall into the super competitive now but in time it too should be overstacked.

Just not sure if there a way to fix all of this more of a cyclical thing where some worlds go though bad times then things pick up.

If any thing that how RvR games end up working ALL of them seem to do this even the non mmorpg if there is any type of RvR pvp you will find that there a cyclical of overstacking and down times.

Rynter.3975:

Chaba.5410:

And I’m concerned for the status of TE. That might be Rynter’s guild?

Correct. We’re done, as likely to go back to GW2 as to PlanetSide 2, which means never.

Pity, because the game at its very core is pretty kitten good, but the longer we played the more flawed design choices we began seeing in the game.

It was nice to run with you guys the one time I did. You guys reminded me of how fights guilds were in the starting days of GvG in NA. It was refreshing. Take care.

If I was Anet I would be really worried about the state of the game in T2 because these are 3 high-population/full servers where it’s almost absolutely impossible to have any kind of fun in WvW. Anet dev need to play there for a week and see for themselves what is hapenning, because there are less fight in T2 right now than in EotM at prime time.

Doesn’t look good for their game, but at the same time, it’s the result of their lack of updates to WvW and the matchup system.

Swamurabi.7890:

Looks like the “Change is coming to World Populations” mechanic is causing a balanced overstacked T1, a heavily unbalanced T2, but a balanced T3 as guilds move away from T2.

Since the three T3 servers have very close glicko scores and are far enough from T2 and T4, I wonder if they’ll go the glicko manipulating path that T1 has used to keep their tier intact.

Actually the ANET program is doing exactly what was intended. It is pushing people to lower tiers. As people want to move, they have to go to T3 or lower since T1 and T2 are full. It hurts short term, but longer term, it is a good move for the game. The issue with Yak’s bend was created before ANET implemented the new system.

As for T1, there is no win swapping as you seem to think. If anything, most people are T1 are bored and want something new. If you look at the leaderboards, it appears T1 is very balanced. The reality is that there are just a lot fewer players right now. You are lucky to see a queue on 1 map during NA right now (excluding reset of course).

Xillllix.3485:

If I was Anet I would be really worried about the state of the game in T2 because these are 3 high-population/full servers where it’s almost absolutely impossible to have any kind of fun in WvW. Anet dev need to play there for a week and see for themselves what is hapenning, because there are less fight in T2 right now than in EotM at prime time.

Doesn’t look good for their game, but at the same time, it’s the result of their lack of updates to WvW and the matchup system.

there was a dev on YB, last time we saw the tag was during the golem event, i think he/she might be working on HoT now though since there has been no sign since then.

i do wish though that he or she would hop to FA or SoS, and yes, when T2 is in such a mess its very unhealthy for the rest of the game mode.

The alliance of baddies picked SoS to stay in T2 over dragonbrand. This alliance was what destroyed T2 chances of fun WvW IMO. Fights bros were more concerned with their OS schedules than allowing the natural fit for T2 to settle in.

So you end up with a ded SoS and a 2 way match between FA and YB, which of course YB won I mean comon…

Sungtaro.6493:

I look at IOJ. ANET will let what happens, happen. There will be no intervention to save servers.

The servers, FA and SOS, will have to use their resources or methods to maintain morale to keep interest in WvW and T2 for their populations. There will be no white knight for this situation. It will play itself out.

This situation is merely Act One of what will happen.

And does the twenty guilds leaving T2 include the two guilds that are reported leaving just recently? One from FA, one from YB.

Speaking of IoJ…

Remember back when there were four T2 servers so one was always matched up in T3? Remember how badly they behaved? Now it’s happening to them. Maybe they’ll fall to T8 as a result — like IoJ did.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Sungtaro.6493:

I look at IOJ. ANET will let what happens, happen. There will be no intervention to save servers.

The servers, FA and SOS, will have to use their resources or methods to maintain morale to keep interest in WvW and T2 for their populations. There will be no white knight for this situation. It will play itself out.

This situation is merely Act One of what will happen.

And does the twenty guilds leaving T2 include the two guilds that are reported leaving just recently? One from FA, one from YB.

Speaking of IoJ…

Remember back when there were four T2 servers so one was always matched up in T3? Remember how badly they behaved? Now it’s happening to them. Maybe they’ll fall to T8 as a result — like IoJ did.

Yeah know about it second hand. Where did you think a lot of IOJ players went? If it is as you say about how badly the T2 servers behaved, why would they move to T2 servers?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Sungtaro.6493:

I look at IOJ. ANET will let what happens, happen. There will be no intervention to save servers.

The servers, FA and SOS, will have to use their resources or methods to maintain morale to keep interest in WvW and T2 for their populations. There will be no white knight for this situation. It will play itself out.

This situation is merely Act One of what will happen.

And does the twenty guilds leaving T2 include the two guilds that are reported leaving just recently? One from FA, one from YB.

Speaking of IoJ…

Remember back when there were four T2 servers so one was always matched up in T3? Remember how badly they behaved? Now it’s happening to them. Maybe they’ll fall to T8 as a result — like IoJ did.

Remember when Maguuma imploded in T2 after Season 2 and there was no server close in population to replace it? That was the total WvW population bottoming out.

HoT will bring some freshness and population back to WvW. It won’t last. And with the new population calculation, the large scale zerg battles in WvW will most likely be a thing of the past. Players seeking that style of WvW will probably not find it.

Best I understand it as a T1 player basically a bunch of T1 guilds moved off BlackGate and saved JQ from going down. That caused a lot of the stagnation rather than letting JQ drop. Over time that kinda cross competition got the better of people and there was a lot of drama about how those guilds “made” BlackGate. Other groups moved off BlackGate as well onto other servers like TC. Tempers flared, and a lot moved down to YB to prove that they could dislodge BlackGate because they weren’t able to do so from T1 which they’d have to blow out BlackGate each week (and it wasn’t working despite them staying up crazy hours) cause T2 just wasn’t able to push up past the gap.

So they got the bright idea to go overload YB and push it up increasing the chances of a server dropping and since they assumed with them leaving that BlackGate would be hopelessly crushed BG would fall and their point (without them BG is hopeless) would sink in. Unfortunately none of this has worked out the way they wanted. BG has pulled together more than ever and again all the servers in T1 are pretty closely matched up leaving T2 basically a dead tier. Basically their only hope is that random chance roll at a move. The lack of results as well as the lack of fights will likely end up frustrating the transfers as well as the fact as more guilds leave YB it undermines their support base putting even greater pressure on the few guilds that did transfer to perform 24/7 if they ever do go up.

All of this is compounded by the fact that most of the people have alt accounts that are in other various tiers as well

Sungtaro.6493:

Yeah know about it second hand. Where did you think a lot of IOJ players went?

Seeing most of them in T3, and several guilds on SBI in particular.

yay being on a winning server constantly kitten your enemy “the joy”!

i lol’d but then again NA seems pretty dead in general when u watch some live streams from T1 servers i guess EU T3/4 servers are even more active then that

Whats worse FA is bleeding actual WvW guilds and are still listed as full.

We cant even move people here if we wanted. ANet is f-ing t2 over.