Guild Wars 2

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

Some people say claiming that matchmaking wont fix the population problems is nothing but speculation.

Claiming that it will is exactly the same kind of speculation.

So far matchmaking hasn’t fixed anything. That is my claim. Untill proven otherwise, this is the reality of here and now. Future speculation is just speculation.

Under the current system, as long as there continues to be worlds with a night presence, and worlds without a night presence, this problem will continue to exist and these worlds are going to play each other eventually even if at the very best they miss each other for a single rotation. This is the reality of the situation whether you want to admit or not, of course there are variables within the system that could change this, but none of these would be anything reasonable or even beneficial for players to consider using, like ‘night-cappers decide to NOT play when they only facing empty forts’ etc etc.

It looks like a fish, and until you give me some extremely good reason/evidence to believe otherwise, you’re welcome to go find some as I would be most interested in having nothing to worry about. My evidence? Reading these forums is a good place to start unless they’re all just silly delusional pessimists or something.

Maybe… your entire life is speculation. Maybe it’s not worth believing anything…

Your entire post is speculation TBH. A speculation about the future is not reality. The reality is here and now, and that is it.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you;
Servers in group X exists, these are night cap servers.
Servers in group Y exists, they are not night cap servers.
Server X and Y are inevitably going to play each other because rankings change, and matchups change.
Problem exists

Do you honestly believe this is speculation? This is borderline written in stone, and it blows my mind to think anyone would suggest otherwise. Please tell me why you believe this isn’t going to happen, preferably a reason that actually has some likelihood of occuring, seriously, I really am interested in knowing.

Reality? That reality exists is an assumption that every single person has to make before we can make assertions about absolutely anything, but this is everyday stuff we’re discussing, not kitten quantum physics. My face is buried in my palms. Reality check.

Ill state this again, why is it an issue? Player mentality. Period. If you wake up the next day and everything isnt yours, go get it. All those night guys are now asleep and you are up. Take it back. Don’t look at the score and go “oh screw this” and not queue up.

I read the OP and nothing else.

I endorse the OP and this thread.

tarnin.1690:

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

Some people say claiming that matchmaking wont fix the population problems is nothing but speculation.

Claiming that it will is exactly the same kind of speculation.

So far matchmaking hasn’t fixed anything. That is my claim. Untill proven otherwise, this is the reality of here and now. Future speculation is just speculation.

Under the current system, as long as there continues to be worlds with a night presence, and worlds without a night presence, this problem will continue to exist and these worlds are going to play each other eventually even if at the very best they miss each other for a single rotation. This is the reality of the situation whether you want to admit or not, of course there are variables within the system that could change this, but none of these would be anything reasonable or even beneficial for players to consider using, like ‘night-cappers decide to NOT play when they only facing empty forts’ etc etc.

It looks like a fish, and until you give me some extremely good reason/evidence to believe otherwise, you’re welcome to go find some as I would be most interested in having nothing to worry about. My evidence? Reading these forums is a good place to start unless they’re all just silly delusional pessimists or something.

Maybe… your entire life is speculation. Maybe it’s not worth believing anything…

Your entire post is speculation TBH. A speculation about the future is not reality. The reality is here and now, and that is it.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you;
Servers in group X exists, these are night cap servers.
Servers in group Y exists, they are not night cap servers.
Server X and Y are inevitably going to play each other because rankings change, and matchups change.
Problem exists

Do you honestly believe this is speculation? This is borderline written in stone, and it blows my mind to think anyone would suggest otherwise. Please tell me why you believe this isn’t going to happen, preferably a reason that actually has some likelihood of occuring, seriously, I really am interested in knowing.

Reality? That reality exists is an assumption that every single person has to make before we can make assertions about absolutely anything, but this is everyday stuff we’re discussing, not kitten quantum physics. My face is buried in my palms. Reality check.

Ill state this again, why is it an issue? Player mentality. Period. If you wake up the next day and everything isnt yours, go get it. All those night guys are now asleep and you are up. Take it back. Don’t look at the score and go “oh screw this” and not queue up.

The issue is not;
Server X caps at night while server Y sleeps
Server Y caps at daytime while server X sleeps

The issue is;
Server X caps at night while Y sleeps
Server Y brings the battle to a even competition at daytime

The effects even a small number of server X can make during the night in turn make that completely full 1200 man battle during the daytime completely redundant, literally meaningless, entirely pointless – do you understand this? Only a single European server – yes that’s 1 out of 27 – can produce a sizeable presence around the clock, and that’s not even taking into account the damage that 50vs10vs10 will do during the night, or any combination of numbers with 1 world having a sizeable force at those hours relative to their enemies. The longer the matchup, the more the issue snowballs until the matchup ends.

Why is this an issue? Because WvW has now became completely redundant for the overhwhelming majority of the playerbase, as the winner is so strongly dictated by the power of players who are willing to capture the map while their opponents sleep, and it’s only a matter of time before more people begin to take notice.

tarnin.1690:

Ill state this again, why is it an issue? Player mentality. Period. If you wake up the next day and everything isnt yours, go get it. All those night guys are now asleep and you are up. Take it back. Don’t look at the score and go “oh screw this” and not queue up.

I have not tried WvWvW yet becuase i have been lvling my character but is there something stopping people from doing this? When you come back to the game and things have been taken why not just take it back. Is that not the point of WvWvW.

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

Some people say claiming that matchmaking wont fix the population problems is nothing but speculation.

Claiming that it will is exactly the same kind of speculation.

So far matchmaking hasn’t fixed anything. That is my claim. Untill proven otherwise, this is the reality of here and now. Future speculation is just speculation.

Under the current system, as long as there continues to be worlds with a night presence, and worlds without a night presence, this problem will continue to exist and these worlds are going to play each other eventually even if at the very best they miss each other for a single rotation. This is the reality of the situation whether you want to admit or not, of course there are variables within the system that could change this, but none of these would be anything reasonable or even beneficial for players to consider using, like ‘night-cappers decide to NOT play when they only facing empty forts’ etc etc.

It looks like a fish, and until you give me some extremely good reason/evidence to believe otherwise, you’re welcome to go find some as I would be most interested in having nothing to worry about. My evidence? Reading these forums is a good place to start unless they’re all just silly delusional pessimists or something.

Maybe… your entire life is speculation. Maybe it’s not worth believing anything…

Your entire post is speculation TBH. A speculation about the future is not reality. The reality is here and now, and that is it.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you;
Servers in group X exists, these are night cap servers.
Servers in group Y exists, they are not night cap servers.
Server X and Y are inevitably going to play each other because rankings change, and matchups change.
Problem exists

Do you honestly believe this is speculation? This is borderline written in stone, and it blows my mind to think anyone would suggest otherwise. Please tell me why you believe this isn’t going to happen, preferably a reason that actually has some likelihood of occuring, seriously, I really am interested in knowing.

Reality? That reality exists is an assumption that every single person has to make before we can make assertions about absolutely anything, but this is everyday stuff we’re discussing, not kitten quantum physics. My face is buried in my palms. Reality check.

You wrote all that stuff above to dismiss my (unbacked) claim that match-fixing wont fix anything. My point is, you can neither proof or dismiss this claim. It is speculation whether it will fix matchups or not fix it.

If you don’t see the problem, I am inclined to think that you used to ride under the nick : Ginger Magician, known to be one of the most arrogant MMO players ever, firmly believing he is the best MMO player to live on this planet. I also bet you have no clue what it feels like to be on a low pop server. I also believe you have no clue about that most MMO’s are for the masses, not for the elite.

Jackle.4173:

tarnin.1690:

Ill state this again, why is it an issue? Player mentality. Period. If you wake up the next day and everything isnt yours, go get it. All those night guys are now asleep and you are up. Take it back. Don’t look at the score and go “oh screw this” and not queue up.

I have not tried WvWvW yet becuase i have been lvling my character but is there something stopping people from doing this? When you come back to the game and things have been taken why not just take it back. Is that not the point of WvWvW.

I thought so too, but most of these people want it handed to them ezmode style. Too used to WoW making things super simple. They play here and WvW is not arena/battleground (there is sPVP people) and it’s not twister encounters (red hand blue, you win!) so they complain instead of, you know, doing PvP.

I support scoring based on population.

If you hold more with less people you should get more points, if you have the most people and cant hold things, then you deserve less points.

If you have a problem with that then you can switch servers to the one without a night crew to help even out the populations. Servers with even populations every point will be worth the same.

Basically handicap the scoring system dynamically based on overall fielded population (sum of all the zones) and night cap issues and servers that cannot field a sizable wvw force can compete.

Mara Gossep.2761:

You wrote all that stuff above to dismiss my (unbacked) claim that match-fixing wont fix anything. My point is, you can neither proof or dismiss this claim. It is speculation whether it will fix matchups or not fix it.

Stage ichi! These are possible ideal solutions that will arise with the current system.

These are the options;
a) All the worlds conveniently stop any form of night capping
b) All the worlds suddenly produce 24/7 full 400 man forces
c) All worlds fight with even numbers during the night hours when they can

Do you believe there is any reasonable possibility of any one of these things happening for all 27 EU worlds. No? Good, continue reading.

Stage deux!
1) There are worlds who will have no night presence.
2) There are worlds who will have a night presence.
3) Rankings are not stagnant.
4) Worlds who have a night presence are not immune from being matched against servers who don’t have a night presence.

So you answered yes to all 4 questions. I’m glad we agree.

Where is the speculation, please inform me. If you have a reason to suggest this won’t occur then I’m literally dying to be informed about it. Anything other than that and you’re a troll, or someone who honestly doesn’t understand the difference between a possibility and likelihood.

The second half of your post is complete dribble, feel welcome to help me understand.

gingertree.5062:

Mara Gossep.2761:

You wrote all that stuff above to dismiss my (unbacked) claim that match-fixing wont fix anything. My point is, you can neither proof or dismiss this claim. It is speculation whether it will fix matchups or not fix it.

Stage ichi! These are possible ideal solutions that will arise with the current system.

These are the options;
a) All the worlds conveniently stop any form of night capping
b) All the worlds suddenly produce 24/7 full 400 man forces
c) All worlds fight with even numbers during the night hours when they can

Do you believe there is any reasonable possibility of any one of these things happening for all 27 EU worlds. No? Good, continue reading.

Stage deux!
1) There are worlds who will have no night presence.
2) There are worlds who will have a night presence.
3) Rankings are not stagnant.
4) Worlds who have a night presence are not immune from being matched against servers who don’t have a night presence.

So you answered yes to all 4 questions. I’m glad we agree.

Where is the speculation, please inform me. If you have a reason to suggest this won’t occur then I’m literally dying to be informed about it. Anything other than that and you’re a troll, or someone who honestly doesn’t understand the difference between a possibility and likelihood.

The second half of your post is complete dribble, feel welcome to help me understand.

Thanks for understanding! The guy you are arguing with has a very thick head. I tried explaining it to him previously during the day but he just dont get it, he dont have the problem so obviously noone else does.

Jackle.4173:

I have not tried WvWvW yet becuase i have been lvling my character but is there something stopping people from doing this? When you come back to the game and things have been taken why not just take it back. Is that not the point of WvWvW.

The servers with heavy night capping populations don’t have less players during the day. They have at least equal populations during the day that have had their forts upgraded the entire night. You can take back a third or so of the map during the day (remember that you start the day owning absolutely none of it), but that isn’t enough to offset the score especially since whatever you just did gets taken once again during the night. Quite a sisyphean task, don’t you think?

Benjamin.6235:

Jackle.4173:

I have not tried WvWvW yet becuase i have been lvling my character but is there something stopping people from doing this? When you come back to the game and things have been taken why not just take it back. Is that not the point of WvWvW.

The servers with heavy night capping populations don’t have less players during the day. They have at least equal populations during the day that have had their forts upgraded the entire night. You can take back a third or so of the map during the day (remember that you start the day owning absolutely none of it), but that isn’t enough to offset the score especially since whatever you just did gets taken once again during the night. Quite a sisyphean task, don’t you think?

So yup, remove the score. I see no reason for it really. It gives some pve bonuses but just show the bonus bar and dump the score. Really, I know why the score is there (when the servers shuffle for pairing they are using that) but they don’t need to show it. Maybe that would stop most of these complaints. Score means nothing really unless you are a pve fiend in which case WoW is coming out with Kung Fu Panda and will be a better pve experience as this game is PvP based.

Benjamin.6235:

The servers with heavy night capping populations don’t have less players during the day. They have at least equal populations during the day

That means you are outmatched. as they are organized in more timezone than you.
they will move up in rank and you will move down.

Any High pop server can organize an off time wvw group to hold the line, it just takes time to build.
Some servers come with them already and are at an advantage but as others get organized they will become more competitive.

Sky.9347:

I think implementing some sort of “comeback mechanic” that would give trashed servers HOPE that they could maybe make a comeback would help solve the un-fun psychological issue while not taking away the unbalanced, unfair, no holds barred environment that W3 is.

Just something that gives a trashed server a chance to get a temporary but important buff of something – if of course they manage to complete some objective that doesn’t involve trying to break through the siege contain at their gate.

Just a thought.

or we could just address the real issue which is the fact that the high ranking servers are getting overpopulated due to the rankings, and free transfers.

tarnin.1690:

So yup, remove the score. I see no reason for it really. It gives some pve bonuses but just show the bonus bar and dump the score. Really, I know why the score is there (when the servers shuffle for pairing they are using that) but they don’t need to show it. Maybe that would stop most of these complaints. Score means nothing really unless you are a pve fiend in which case WoW is coming out with Kung Fu Panda and will be a better pve experience as this game is PvP based.

The score is just indicative of the problem. The problem being that servers with lower wvw populations effectively don’t have the option to play at night and that during the day the maps will usually start by being completely owned by one other team. Not seeing the score won’t change that.

Jackle.4173:

tarnin.1690:

Ill state this again, why is it an issue? Player mentality. Period. If you wake up the next day and everything isnt yours, go get it. All those night guys are now asleep and you are up. Take it back. Don’t look at the score and go “oh screw this” and not queue up.

I have not tried WvWvW yet becuase i have been lvling my character but is there something stopping people from doing this? When you come back to the game and things have been taken why not just take it back. Is that not the point of WvWvW.

You can try to take it back, yes. You can even succeed in doing so. You cannot earn back enough points to be competitive though.

Thing is … Enemy Server X captures the entire map at night. You are now a gigantic number of points behind them when you log in later because they earned points for owning the entire map for 8-10 hours overnight.

Lets say if (big if) you are able to get an awesome group together, and you fight for 12 hours straight. Somehow you take back the map. You win back what you lost and dominate all day.

Now, the entire time you’re fighting … you’re slowly taking objectives from the enemy, and gaining them yourself. They go from getting “all teh points” to (halfway through the day) getting half the points. By the end of the day, you’re getting full points and they are getting none each “tick”.

You log off, exhausted.

Point tally (I’ll simplify the numbers and use 100 for a total map domination): Server X got 450 today (100 in hour 1; 90 in hr 2; 80 in hr 3; 70 in hr 4; 60 in hr 5; 50 in hour 6; and lets just say then 0 the rest of the day because you kicked kitten).

Your server: 750! (0 hour 1; 10 hr 2; 20 hr 3; 30 hr 4; 40 hr 5; 50 hr 6; and 100 × 6 for the other hours you are so super awesome)

Their night crew comes in, captures the whole map in a fraction of the time you fought for today (say 2 hours instead of your 12). Now, for the remaining 10 hours, they are getting full point value and you are getting 0. Their lead is growing massively, and will continue to do so each night.

Point total for the night:
Them: 1,000 (0; 0; 100 × 10)
You: 200 (100; 100; 0 × 10)

People get upset by this, because it creates a situation you cannot crawl out of. The most you can do is earn a few hundred to a few thousand points toward their large (and growing each night) lead.

They pull ahead 800 points each night in the example above, and you eek back 300 more than them during the day. They’re pulling ahead 500 points each 24 hour period. Your only hope to catch them is a massive power outage covering a huge swatch of the planet or a kittenload of your server forgoing sleep and “alarm clocking” every night this week.

There are 2 issues that stem from this “problem”.

The first is the progress thats made during off peak hours. The problem is there is no end, the point of WvW is just to hold everything. If there were some end result you could aim for, once achieved, you could consider reseting all of the objectives to start over. Thats a different system though, with the way things are there is no real fix.

The second is that scoring is based off of holding things. If you have a large team on with no real opposition it is very easy to hold more for longer. This could be fixed in the current system. You would need to find a way to have the majority of scoring come from some type of event that happens during peak hours.

So with the way the game is designed the OP is right, there isnt much you can do to fix the bad system. But the problem is easily pointed out, “winning” in WvW comes down to which side is better during off peak hours.

The current system works perfectly as long as every player in guild wars 2 is able to accept the fact that if Server A has a higher ranking than Server B does not mean Server A are better at WvWvW and as a result no member of Server A can use this as bragging rights over a player of Server B.

However we live in a world where that will never happen and something majorly needs to be done to balance the system so that 50% of the ranking doesn’t come from 10% of the population.

ANet knows this to be true otherwise the Outnumbered Buff wouldn’t exist at all. This buff should be used to allow out numbered servers to turtle in keeps by effecting the walls, gates and NPC defenders in a way that makes it so that a full server with basic siege support takes 3-4 hours to concur the entire map against a completely empty server.

I also think it should take longer to capture things in general though, myself and another individual capped a supply camp in about 5 minutes with the help of the NPC frogs. 2 people and a small pack of NPCs should not be able to cap anything that quickly.

I’m sorry but if Server B takes 90% of the map during peak hours and holds it for 5 hours until peak ends than Server A has a 5:1 population advantage and takes the entire map due to numbers for the next 8 hours then Server B has the better players.

Alternatively a scoring system that only awards points for taking objects not holding them would minimize the effect of “night capping”. If the “night cappers” steamroll everyone with no resistance they will get fair points for capturing all the objectives on the map and will get their server the advantage of 3 orbs but after that they are defending to prevent the others serves from getting points not to keep getting points.

This would effectively make the constantly pushing lines of peak hours worth a larger portion of the points without stopping anyone from playing during their ideal time.

We have a situation with Yaks Bend which is a full server with a large NA and Oceanic playerbase. This gives the server many more organized guilds because of population, and means they will have organized guilds going around the clock.

They have been paired with:

Darkhaven, a medium population NA server with no significant Oceanic playerbase.
Anvil Rock, a medium population NA server with no significant Oceanic playerbase.

Yaks bend is currently leading Darkhaven and Anvil Rock by 320,000 points.

On Friday night Anvil Rock was leading, we fought off Yaks Bend and Darkhaven simultaneously, recaptured all three orbs, and had a strong foothold across all four borderlands. Saturday morning when I woke up, all four borderlands were completely controlled by Yaks Bend. Its been that way every day since. We fight, we retake, we go to sleep, and its all Yaks Bend by morning.

A server like this has organized guilds running nonstop in WvW.

So what is your suggested solution?

Stormcycle.4208:

We have a situation with Yaks Bend which is a full server with a large NA and Oceanic playerbase. This gives the server many more organized guilds because of population, and means they will have organized guilds going around the clock.

They have been paired with:

Darkhaven, a medium population NA server with no significant Oceanic playerbase.
Anvil Rock, a medium population NA server with no significant Oceanic playerbase.

Yaks bend is currently leading Darkhaven and Anvil Rock by 320,000 points.

On Friday night Anvil Rock was leading, we fought off Yaks Bend and Darkhaven simultaneously, recaptured all three orbs, and had a strong foothold across all four borderlands. Saturday morning when I woke up, all four borderlands were completely controlled by Yaks Bend. Its been that way every day since. We fight, we retake, we go to sleep, and its all Yaks Bend by morning.

A server like this has organized guilds running nonstop in WvW.

So what is your suggested solution?

His/their solution is for you to go out and organize your server, find oceaning guilds and force them to transfer to your server. Because night-capping is obviously a non-issue right? Its your fault your server have employed people, you all should quit your jobs!

At least thats what I’ve been told several times today in this thread :-)

Their solution is to match servers with similar population with each other. Which if they succeed, might make the game enjoyable for most servers. However it doesnt really fix the problem that this shouldnt be the deciding factor.

They should find some way to base the majority of scoring around some type of event that occurs when all servers have max populations. Like big open field battles or keep takes with more than 20 people defending, stuff like that.

Darken.9670:

Their solution is to match servers with similar population with each other. Which if they succeed, might make the game enjoyable for most servers. However it doesnt really fix the problem that this shouldnt be the deciding factor.

They should find some way to base the majority of scoring around some type of event that occurs when all servers have max populations. Like big open field battles or keep takes with more than 20 people defending, stuff like that.

I definitely agree that it shouldn’t be all that is done with WvW. I think that objectives should be much harder to take, scoring should change, perhaps new objectives should be added, and the outmanned buff should change, as other posters have suggested.

The way it is now, you invest a lot of gold, time, manpower into arming and fortifying a Keep or Garrison, but 20 organized people with siege and supplies can break in quickly and cap it.

I would like to see it taking multiple guilds coordinated in voice chat to take down a garrison being properly defended by one guild. Especially if we are going into 2 week long matches eventually.

Make this more of a campaign, instead of a zerg fest. Make it so when a garrison falls, hundreds of people cheer in victory because it was something really significant to take.

Shibbi Shwing.4689:

I read the OP and nothing else.

I endorse the OP and this thread.

You really should read the entire thread. There is a bit of back and forth between some baseless argumentative people, but there’s also some very good points made by reasonable people on both sides as well.

Another thing is, the introduction of new siege gear as well as new upgrades can change the dynamics of the game as well. What about adding traps and land mines, things of that nature to Garrison/Keep defense? Of course it all has to be thought through carefully, because adding new things can create new problems. But just adding food for thought.

I just imagined breaking into a garrison but having to be extra cautious because of possible arrow traps, pit falls, immobilization traps, gates shutting behind and in front of you , things like that. Maybe I am going to far, who knows :P

Darken.9670:

So with the way the game is designed the OP is right, there isnt much you can do to fix the bad system. But the problem is easily pointed out, “winning” in WvW comes down to which side is better during off peak hours.

Technically “winning” in WvW comes down to which serve can maximize their strengths and exploit the weaknesses of the other two. In this particular instance(and on several other servers) that means using their off hours population effectively to exploit the lack of resistance.

If server A has a zerg of 40 people, they can choose to send it off to find another zerg of 40 people. This would be fair, right? Or they can choose to find a spot with 5 people, and utterly destroy them, then move on. Which do you think is more likely to result in a win for server A?

Server B only has 5 people to work with. They can choose to send it off to fight a zerg of 40 people. This would be stupid and pointless, right? Or they can choose to get out of the way of the 40 man zerg and attack somewhere useful, like back area camps or the jumping puzzle where they’re more likely to encounter equal numbers.

Server A is going to try to put themselves in the situation to smash the 5 people as often as possible. Server B is going to try to avoid that as much as possible. The ‘skill’ comes down to who’s better at getting what they want.

Server B’s five people aren’t going to be able to hold the map against the kinds of odds people are describing when they’re matched against such a huge night crew, no matter what they do. That’s a given. But that doesn’t mean they can’t do anything at all. They’re still fighting to give their day crew as much assistance as possible, and to hold on to as much score as possible despite the odds.

Maybe they’re successful and they hold on to a bit more than expected. Maybe they’re not and the day crew logs on to find they’ve lost everything. But you know what? That’s warfare, not warfair.

And yes, the proper response is to get your own night crew organized to maximize as much of situation B as you can. Recruiting people from other servers is one option. Getting your existing night people as massively geared and coordinated is another.

Either that or resign yourself to the fact that you were up against a superior server, and save your strength and effort for the next week when you’re matched against servers closer to your own. That’s a hard pill to swallow, I know. But in the long run it will serve you and your server better than complaining on the forums.

Maybe it isn’t fun for some people to fight a losing battle. No one likes to “lose”. But where is it written that every aspect of the game must be fun for every single person every hour of the day? Or that every single WvW match must be absolutely perfectly matched? Once you get past the idea of thinking and complaining about how it should be, you can start thinking about maximizing the situation you do have. And if you don’t want to deal with it at all, then sPVP is actually a lot of fun too, you know!

Furthermore, the matchups are only a week long. But people are acting like losing this way is the end of their gaming career for all time. That their server and their fun are ruined forever, never to be regained.

Good god, people. It’s a week! Go outside, play some PVE, try a different game, watch a movie. Or if you absolutely can’t tear yourself away from the game, spend the rest of the week talking to your server and getting ready for next time. Look at the situation and ask yourself and your server: “How do we get better for next time?”

And do yourself a favor and think in terms of your entire server, not just the few hours of the day that you personally play.

Eliteseraph.4970:

Or if you absolutely can’t tear yourself away from the game, spend the rest of the week talking to your server and getting ready for next time. Look at the situation and ask yourself and your server: “How do we get better for next time?”

We get better by waiting for ArenaNet to match us up against a server that doesn’t have at least five times our numbers at night and still more numbers during the day.

Man, I can’t even begin to quote the rest of your post. You are horribly naive if you think this isn’t just about numbers. People don’t mind losing games where they at least had a chance. These numbers at night? There is absolutely zero chance, and you either have no experience with it or you’re lying to say otherwise.

Eliteseraph.4970:

Technically “winning” in WvW comes down to which serve can maximize their strengths and exploit the weaknesses of the other two. In this particular instance(and on several other servers) that means using their off hours population effectively to exploit the lack of resistance.

If server A has a zerg of 40 people, they can choose to send it off to find another zerg of 40 people. This would be fair, right? Or they can choose to find a spot with 5 people, and utterly destroy them, then move on. Which do you think is more likely to result in a win for server A?

Server B only has 5 people to work with. They can choose to send it off to fight a zerg of 40 people. This would be stupid and pointless, right? Or they can choose to get out of the way of the 40 man zerg and attack somewhere useful, like back area camps or the jumping puzzle where they’re more likely to encounter equal numbers.

Server A is going to try to put themselves in the situation to smash the 5 people as often as possible. Server B is going to try to avoid that as much as possible. The ‘skill’ comes down to who’s better at getting what they want.

Server B’s five people aren’t going to be able to hold the map against the kinds of odds people are describing when they’re matched against such a huge night crew, no matter what they do. That’s a given. But that doesn’t mean they can’t do anything at all. They’re still fighting to give their day crew as much assistance as possible, and to hold on to as much score as possible despite the odds.

Maybe they’re successful and they hold on to a bit more than expected. Maybe they’re not and the day crew logs on to find they’ve lost everything. But you know what? That’s warfare, not warfair.

And yes, the proper response is to get your own night crew organized to maximize as much of situation B as you can. Recruiting people from other servers is one option. Getting your existing night people as massively geared and coordinated is another.

Either that or resign yourself to the fact that you were up against a superior server, and save your strength and effort for the next week when you’re matched against servers closer to your own. That’s a hard pill to swallow, I know. But in the long run it will serve you and your server better than complaining on the forums.

Maybe it isn’t fun for some people to fight a losing battle. No one likes to “lose”. But where is it written that every aspect of the game must be fun for every single person every hour of the day? Or that every single WvW match must be absolutely perfectly matched? Once you get past the idea of thinking and complaining about how it should be, you can start thinking about maximizing the situation you do have. And if you don’t want to deal with it at all, then sPVP is actually a lot of fun too, you know!

Furthermore, the matchups are only a week long. But people are acting like losing this way is the end of their gaming career for all time. That their server and their fun are ruined forever, never to be regained.

Good god, people. It’s a week! Go outside, play some PVE, try a different game, watch a movie. Or if you absolutely can’t tear yourself away from the game, spend the rest of the week talking to your server and getting ready for next time. Look at the situation and ask yourself and your server: “How do we get better for next time?”

And do yourself a favor and think in terms of your entire server, not just the few hours of the day that you personally play.

Technically winning is who ever has the highest score at the end of a match up. If this is heavilly influenced by a server who has people on when other servers dont, its bad game design. If its not a factor, there is no problem.

Dont quote me and then act like I am overreacting to the situation. I dont lose a moments sleep over bad games, its you who are sensationalizing peoples comments.

I understand they its not an easy fix. People want to be able to play the game whenever they are on, so you cant really dumb down there experience just to fit into the schedule of people who dont play as much.

I can think of a few games systems off the top of my head that would solve this problem and I dont get paid to do that. These people do, so they either did or should have seen this coming. At this point its not really realistic to implement something new so people will either have to deal with it or move on.

Its POSSIBLE with match making that this will eventually become a non-issue. I dont think it will go away but its possible. All of that said, whenever a win or loss comes down to just having people on when the other team doesnt, its bad game design. Do with that information what you will.

Benjamin.6235:

Eliteseraph.4970:

Or if you absolutely can’t tear yourself away from the game, spend the rest of the week talking to your server and getting ready for next time. Look at the situation and ask yourself and your server: “How do we get better for next time?”

We get better by waiting for ArenaNet to match us up against a server that doesn’t have at least five times our numbers at night and still more numbers during the day.

Man, I can’t even begin to quote the rest of your post. You are horribly naive if you think this isn’t just about numbers. People don’t mind losing games where they at least had a chance. These numbers at night? There is absolutely zero chance, and you either have no experience with it or you’re lying to say otherwise.

I dont even think losing is the issue. If you have played an MMO with this type of PvP before you should have had SOME experience in losing because you were outnumbered.

The problem is that a server who dominates another server when they are on, can get destroyed in points just because they dont have an around the clock population. It just kind of makes points meaningless which makes WvW kind of meaningless, since it already lacks a final objective.

(Insert US server disclaimer)

There was a post on another thread about how “prime time” was about 6 hours, leaving the fate of the match to be decided by off peak play in the other 18 hours. It got me thinking, considering that regions like Asia and Oceania do not play for the entirety of those other 18 hours, so how did everything fit in.

So after working through the time zone differences (and assuming my conversions are right) I’ve found that Asia/Oceanic prime time basically follows a few hours after the US prime time ends, give or take a few depending on which coast you are on. So in effect there is a gap AFTER Asia/Oceania prime time and BEFORE US prime time.

The entire term “night capping” is a complete misnomer since night time is realistically prime time. WvW should actually be vulnerable during the US day time as this is after Asian/Oceanic prime time.

Just FYI, I’ve used 6pm-12pm as “prime time”, US/Pacific to US/Eastern as the US timezones and GMT+8 to GMT+12 as Asian/Oceanic timezones. Its not exact but good for a general idea.

Would just like to point out that WvW can change fairly quickly (within a 1-2 hour gap). I play on HoD and I am an Aussie and I have seen a couple of times where we control a majority of the map. Then the other 2 servers have become organized and have taken back a fair portion of the map to leave all 3 servers basically on even footing. I do agree that yes, If 1 or 2 servers have a higher population at certain times that the others, they will be able to cap objectives easier than if it was completely full but seriously, it is just about being organized.

Some of the only real questions of balance comes in the nature of the Outmanned buff and orbs, I think.

Tzash.5748:

(Insert US server disclaimer)

There was a post on another thread about how “prime time” was about 6 hours, leaving the fate of the match to be decided by off peak play in the other 18 hours. It got me thinking, considering that regions like Asia and Oceania do not play for the entirety of those other 18 hours, so how did everything fit in.

So after working through the time zone differences (and assuming my conversions are right) I’ve found that Asia/Oceanic prime time basically follows a few hours after the US prime time ends, give or take a few depending on which coast you are on. So in effect there is a gap AFTER Asia/Oceania prime time and BEFORE US prime time.

The entire term “night capping” is a complete misnomer since night time is realistically prime time. WvW should actually be vulnerable during the US day time as this is after Asian/Oceanic prime time.

Just FYI, I’ve used 6pm-12pm as “prime time”, US/Pacific to US/Eastern as the US timezones and GMT+8 to GMT+12 as Asian/Oceanic timezones. Its not exact but good for a general idea.

You forgot one thing. How long the average MMO player is in the game playing it. For most, its a long period of time.

The “night capping” we are talking about is that magical hour of around 3am-4am where even the most hardcore MMO player is saying screw it and going to sleep.

This turns out to be the start of late night gaming for most oceanic players. I would say most of the back capping happens between 2am-10am when all NA players are going to sleep or are already asleep.

Keep in mind, a server that is heavy in both populations will have organized pvp guilds operating around the clock regardless of the time. Hope this helps!

Stormcycle.4208:

Tzash.5748:

(Insert US server disclaimer)

There was a post on another thread about how “prime time” was about 6 hours, leaving the fate of the match to be decided by off peak play in the other 18 hours. It got me thinking, considering that regions like Asia and Oceania do not play for the entirety of those other 18 hours, so how did everything fit in.

So after working through the time zone differences (and assuming my conversions are right) I’ve found that Asia/Oceanic prime time basically follows a few hours after the US prime time ends, give or take a few depending on which coast you are on. So in effect there is a gap AFTER Asia/Oceania prime time and BEFORE US prime time.

The entire term “night capping” is a complete misnomer since night time is realistically prime time. WvW should actually be vulnerable during the US day time as this is after Asian/Oceanic prime time.

Just FYI, I’ve used 6pm-12pm as “prime time”, US/Pacific to US/Eastern as the US timezones and GMT+8 to GMT+12 as Asian/Oceanic timezones. Its not exact but good for a general idea.

You forgot one thing. How long the average MMO player is in the game playing it. For most, its a long period of time.

The “night capping” we are talking about is that magical hour of around 3am-4am where even the most hardcore MMO player is saying screw it and going to sleep.

This turns out to be the start of late night gaming for most oceanic players. I would say most of the back capping happens between 2am-10am when all NA players are going to sleep or are already asleep.

Keep in mind, a server that is heavy in both populations will have organized pvp guilds operating around the clock regardless of the time. Hope this helps!

Actually my point was that the issue isn’t how things are capped post US prime time, its how long they are able to stay that way. The longer something is capped for the greater the impact it will have on the scoreboard. The bigger gap between the end of Asian/Oceanic prime time and start of US prime time means a potentially bigger impact on the scoreboard. That gap, and thus the impact on the scoreboard, can be minimised by the actions of daytime US players.

I still believe that server rankings will go a long way towards balance though.

Come to Anvil Rock or Darkhaven where Yaks Bend is leading us both 411,000 to roughly 80,000 and tell us all that we should use tactics to win.

Stormcycle.4208:

Come to Anvil Rock or Darkhaven where Yaks Bend is leading us both 411,000 to roughly 80,000 and tell us all that we should use tactics to win.

Of course you could always let the server rankings system do what it was designed for and move Yak’s up a tier next week.

Losing one match is not the end of the world and not an excuse for major design changes.

Tzash.5748:

Stormcycle.4208:

Come to Anvil Rock or Darkhaven where Yaks Bend is leading us both 411,000 to roughly 80,000 and tell us all that we should use tactics to win.

Of course you could always let the server rankings system do what it was designed for and move Yak’s up a tier next week.

Losing one match is not the end of the world and not an excuse for major design changes.

I guess you just don’t want to accept the reality of the situation and admit that you are wrong in your way of thinking.

If being number one means you are the best server, and a server like Yaks bend can win solely because of its dual NA and Oceanic populations which give it the ability to put forth organized fresh players in WvW at all hours of the day or night, then the system is flawed and has nothing to do with player skill or organization and everything to do with who can stay awake the longest.

I’ve proved my point, and the scoreboard in our match this week reinforces it. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future, but I will bet cash money that the top three servers will be those with heavy NA and Oceanic populations at the end of the day.

Stormcycle.4208:

Tzash.5748:

Stormcycle.4208:

Come to Anvil Rock or Darkhaven where Yaks Bend is leading us both 411,000 to roughly 80,000 and tell us all that we should use tactics to win.

Of course you could always let the server rankings system do what it was designed for and move Yak’s up a tier next week.

Losing one match is not the end of the world and not an excuse for major design changes.

I guess you just don’t want to accept the reality of the situation and admit that you are wrong in your way of thinking.

If being number one means you are the best server, and a server like Yaks bend can win solely because of its dual NA and Oceanic populations which give it the ability to put forth organized fresh players in WvW at all hours of the day or night, then the system is flawed and has nothing to do with player skill or organization and everything to do with who can stay awake the longest.

I’ve proved my point, and the scoreboard in our match this week reinforces it. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future, but I will bet cash money that the top three servers will be those with heavy NA and Oceanic populations at the end of the day.

You haven’t proven anything other than you not understanding how server rankings work. The scoreboard of one week proves zilch as the next week’s matchups will be different, and probably the week after that etc. Ultimately the servers that can field 24×7 will face off against each other more or less consistently and the ones that can’t will face others that can’t.

If the system was broken then you’d be playing against Yak’s every single week.

A five year old can understand how the server rankings work.

You need to learn to read and understand someones comments before you type new ones. You should go back and re read the paragraph you just quoted and pay attention to the part where I talked about how, if being ranked #1 means you are the best server, then the system is flawed because winning is based on population and not tactics.

You are just refusing to accept the situation and dancing around the subject and attempting to sound witty.

Its called a ladder, and to climb it you must be the best. But in this case, you just need a large NA and Oceanic playerbase and you are golden. Anyway I have proven what needs to be fixed, and I am sure the developers see the problem themselves.

It doesnt have to be fixed by just pairing NA/Oceanic servers against each other only, because that ruins the whole concept of having a ladder to begin with.

One of the ways they can affect the outcome is by having NPCs spawn when there is a population imbalance, changing what the unmanned buff does, introducing new and different kinds of siege equipment. Altering how much supplies someone can carry and how much siege equipment costs to purchase and build. Strengthing Keep/Garrison/Tower defenses and fortifications.

Stormcycle.4208:

Its called a ladder, and to climb it you must be the best. But in this case, you just need a large NA and Oceanic playerbase and you are golden. Anyway I have proven what needs to be fixed, and I am sure the developers see the problem themselves.

If all you need is a large NA and Oceanic playerbase then why isn’t SoS or IoJ on top? They both meet that criteria and yet are both getting pummeled by ET (a medium pop server).

The fact is that you don’t “just need a large NA and Oceanic playerbase”. And more than one server has a good off peak presence as well so it doesn’t automatically make anyone #1. So no, you really haven’t proven anything.

“Medium pop” is meaningless in terms of WvW.

The real question is whether your server is queued in all worlds 24/7. If you are, then you’re going to be a top server, probably in the top 3 at least. If you’re not, then you’re going to get knocked down by a server that is 24/7.

You could be absolute top dog from 6pm to 2am eastern time. You could make Hedge players look like fresh faced newbies during those hours. You could be the absolute best of the best, but you’ll still get ranked down with Kaineng because every night some other server comes and takes all your holdings.

That’s actually the worst case scenario. Your server stomps during the day and gets stomped during the night. You will never balance out into a fair or fun matchup because of the disparity between your daytime and nighttime populations. No rating system can ever compensate for that.

So the answer to the night capping issue is: grow a pair?
WvW is not balanced by nature and we all should be fine with that? I think the problem the majority is trying to address is exactly how to fix it not just stating: Game sucks deal with it.
This whole thread baffles me…

Kedrith.6724:

So the answer to the night capping issue is: grow a pair?
WvW is not balanced by nature and we all should be fine with that? I think the problem the majority is trying to address is exactly how to fix it not just stating: Game sucks deal with it.
This whole thread baffles me…

+10 interwebs to you

By and large I’d agree that much of the current “whining” is overdone.
DAoC showed that RvR-combat, even with all the off-peak hours taking and all that, is very much self-balancing given equal player-counts on both sides (that’s however an issue the developer can only indirectly fix, see their comments on the matter).

There is one key difference between the two games and I feel this augments the problem:
In DAoC, taking a keep was a monstrous undertaking, and as a result, the game was played in a defensive way.
In GW2, taking a keep is very fast and easy, and can easily be ninjad before the defenders arrive with a handful of organized people leading your zerg and deploying the weapons. As a result, WvW is played in a very offensive way.

And that’s really the key difference. During off hours, you can basically take the entire map, upgraded guards or not.