Guild Wars 2

If you haven’t read it yet.

Colin

Our goal was to ensure we didn’t really need to tweak any major game system again after this expansion and our focus could be entirely on adding new content, and building on top of – rather than expanding outward systemically. WvW is the one major feature I’d say we didn’t end up accomplishing this goal, the project is so large it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion and we still have work to do to address core fundamental issues like population balance, rewards, scoring, night capping, etc. As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details, so for now we’ll just say WvW is the final big game system on our radar – and we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/10256/Guild-Wars-2-Heart-of-Thorns-One-Week-In-with-Colin-Johanson.html

At least a confession they couldn’t make it in time. That’s the answer many of you have asked for. We all know wvw is huge. And we know they definitely pushed out the expansion before it was 100% finished … Maybe at some point…. In 2 or 3 more years (or 1 year If you are an optimist =P) most things will be fine.

But at least this means that up to a certain point wvw isn’t finished and once things may be changed it will get better. If you can’t stand it now just leave until then. You are free to go. But I’m happy to not be confirmed that this is the wvw they want to have.
And I’m actually really surprised that he calls things like nightcap a serious problem.
I’m also playing wvw in the state it is right now, but I’m happily looking forward to better times.

This is of course nothing immediate and I definitely don’t think that this justifies the very very obvious mistakes that have been made on the new map, but hey, if wvw players have one ability it’s patience by far. And we will see how quick they work on the most important issues once all the QQ threads become abandoned.

same thing could have been said for WvW at launch. It has taken a very long time but I’ll be very interested to see what they come up with for their next vision for WvW. If the new map is a clue it might be a little different than we expect.

I definitely don’t say that I’m happy with the work until now, but what is different in this (maybe it’s just me) is that he actually calls problems players have been asking for and not just a general “we are working on it”
So we at least know that they are working on topics that have been very important for the last 3 years (and yes, they could have done it 3 years ago already… Stop living in the past guys) instead of working on entirely new stuff nobody ever asked for.

Except its been so long I don’t give a golly gosh darn anymore.

If anet brings us back 1 of the old maps so many players would return.
1 – EB
2- Homeborder(Old map)
3- New stupid map
4- New stupid map

Then i would return – also make the auto-loot work in WvW.

We wont share any details until there is something meaningful to share… And it is much to late for us to change anything.

Wtb 2 more years.

Ps. It is also interesting to note that apperently they have plans since it was much to large to fit in the xpac. Yet nothing to share since it isnt meaningful…

So delusions of grandeur? Is that what we have so far?

This comment is literally a giant middle finger to us.

Why?

Because he admits they kitten WvW and rushed it out the door before it was finished. They will still take money for this of course, despite it being a broken and unfinished product, with the vague promise it’ll be fixed “in the future”

Well it’s been 3 years and WvW is still garbage so what makes this time any different? They set an unreasonable deadline and instead of respecting us and waiting they went forward and screwed us.

The gaming industry is plagued with people that enable this kind of behaviour and it kittenes me off. If you ordered a hamburger and it came undercooked you’d send it back. If you bought a car and it had no wheels you’d send it back. But for some reason people are happy to purchase unfinished games and wait for a mysterious point in the future that it will all be fixed… except that never really works out does it?

Fellfoot.8156:

@Entenkommando ++

…and I see they’ve been deleting threads today too… so, somebody is reading them. Not just old threads, some from today.

1) This is their usual response to criticism I am afraid.

2) If they havent had time during original devlopment; if they havent have time after launch, if they havent have time after china release, if they havent have much time during the expansion development, if they havent had time in the last 3 years; when will they ever have time for WvW?!

You cant just come after 3 years and say you didnt have time!
“it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion” means you didnt have time!
This excuse is totally unacceptable especially after the criticisms with the HoT release not giving much to veteran players! And now complaints that the story is too short.
What makes you think people will ever buy gems let alone another expansion in the future?!

[quote= Guild Wars 2 Launch Day]
As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details,
[/quote]

You been saying this since launch! You cannot use the same excuse for 3 whole years!
In 3 years the only major thing we’ve got is this new map which most people hate because you apparently listened to us and then did the complete opposite!

It’s like a school kid asking their teacher for their grades and the teacher saying their dog ate all the test papers, and there’s nothing the kid can do cos the teacher is the one with the authority. (Anet is the teacher here)

This was your last chance to make it up to the WvW community after 3 years of neglect, instead you have shafted us once more!

Bla bla bla, i’have red so many times stuff like that. They are nomore reliable. “We are doing this, that, we will…, we know..”and so on. At the end of the day we have Desert(ed) Borderlands with all the flaws player have already discussed. i’ll bring my money to games where they create real pvp massive games. What we have her is empty pve maps, not realistic enviorment nor tactic focused maps.

“As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details”

Translation: “We do what we want and at the point where we ask for your opinion it is to late to change much and you will get it anyway, because we spend way to many time and efforts to do it. You don’t like it? Oh… that is unexpected. But you will get used to it!”

Dear Anet! Please ask ppl for their opinions and ideas! If you don’t want to do it with an Devtag just make an normal account and post it as a player idea. Look at the reaktions and you may get an idea of your plan can work or not.

Feedback is one thing. Outright bashing and disingenuously claiming they said stuff that they did not, is another. This type of accusation and QQ when they try to open WvW dialogue is exactly why we receive so little dialogue.

Perhaps it would be wiser to offer your complaints in a more constructive manner. When you make post that cannot be stomached, how can you reasonably expect your feedback to be digested?

vespers.1759:

This comment is literally a giant middle finger to us.

Why?

Because he admits they kitten WvW and rushed it out the door before it was finished. They will still take money for this of course, despite it being a broken and unfinished product, with the vague promise it’ll be fixed “in the future”

Well it’s been 3 years and WvW is still garbage so what makes this time any different? They set an unreasonable deadline and instead of respecting us and waiting they went forward and screwed us.

The gaming industry is plagued with people that enable this kind of behaviour and it kittenes me off. If you ordered a hamburger and it came undercooked you’d send it back. If you bought a car and it had no wheels you’d send it back. But for some reason people are happy to purchase unfinished games and wait for a mysterious point in the future that it will all be fixed… except that never really works out does it?

You’re purchasing an ever-changing service, not a product. I’ve played WvW fairly regularly for the past 3 years, even in its “garbage” state, and had an absolute blast.

If they release late, they get yelled at by someone else other than you who says they are giving players the middle finger by not hurrying up. They push out what they have done at their deadline and continue work, and someone like you comes out and says they are giving us the middle finger by admitting that they didn’t get as far as they’d like and they still have work to do.

Please. The era of the pre-purchase and kickstarter promises in the gaming industry isn’t exactly the best thing in the world, but put your torch away. I’ve already gotten my money’s worth out of the expac, as I knew what to expect. Can’t wait to get way, way more than my money’s worth out of the rest of my time playing.

I spent $60 for access to 1500 hours worth of enjoyment. I’ll probably get at least that much again over the next few years. What an incredible deal, even if the WvW map isn’t just right to please me.

coglin.1867:

Feedback is one thing. Outright bashing and disingenuously claiming they said stuff that they did not, is another. This type of accusation and QQ when they try to open WvW dialogue is exactly why we receive so little dialogue.

Perhaps it would be wiser to offer your complaints in a more constructive manner. When you make post that cannot be stomached, how can you reasonably expect your feedback to be digested?

This.

Also what Colin says about WvW matches pretty well with what we’ve heard in other places. Like how we got our new map, the feedback (DCI threads), and how John Corpening talked about getting the live dev team after HoT release/fixes. So they have something in plans, and it became too big for the ExPack.

Also considering the entire WvW core system needs to be available for everyone anyways (or most of it at anyways), all these changes to WvW are likely to be for all accounts, and not just HoT accounts (Hey, we’re fixing population and coverage for HoT accounts only!). So it makes sense to be the content they doesn’t focus to get out with the ExPack. (Hey, we killed guild halls and maguma, so all accounts, not only those that got HoT, can get a better WvW!).

I do think it is sad that they won’t talk about features in development, but in a way it does make sense. The input was at DCI threads, if they started taking input now, it would probably become a titanic train-wreck at this stage, with all the different opinions players got.

Anyways, I’ll see what they do, when they release/fix WvW, if I don’t like it I’ll quit for good (WvW at least). And if I like it, I’ll keep playing.

It’s obviously changes that didn’t need to be included in the expansion because they will be provided as free changes to wvw, since wvw is open for access to core and expansion players. Like the new map. WvW will always be on the back burner for this reason.

What they have done to WvW for this expansion release is absolutely brutal, and I really hope wvw can recover but I’m thinking we’ve lost even more players now.

After three years reset night moved to Saturday, first they said it was because their metrics showed more players log on for saturday than friday, nevermind that friday is the last day of a match and is usually just karma trains and people are working or in school, reset happens at night when most of NA players log on. Then they said they moved it to saturday cause it’s just more convenient for them.

Pve masteries were not even made for use in WvW, the autoloot mastery would have been a perfect for wvw players cause you know they were the ones to first ask for it way back when the game released.

Elite specs were introduced but you need to grind hero points for them, you can do it in wvw, but since you don’t even get experience for masteries while doing that, you might as well go play pve and get both done, while gathering mats for guild halls.

Guild halls set guilds back to square one, after using upgrades for 3 years, players now have to start over, get over the material wall to get back the upgrades useful for wvw, especially claims and +5 supply. Now where do we have to go to get guild halls upgraded? not wvw that’s for sure.

Guild hall arenas are now available, more fighting guilds will just move to arenas to fight than wvw, especially since wvw is dead at the moment. They really should have just created a megaserver arena zone to fight in, that’s all that needed to be in the zone, one giant sized arena, (they’ve already stated they’re building another big arena, why didn’t you do that in the first place?).

The new map, a good number of players have stated they don’t like and don’t want to play on, it has some nice designs in there but it also has too many gimmicks that wvw players want to avoid.

I’m sure they have grand plans to change wvw and fix the major problems with it, I just don’t think it’s something that will happen anytime soon. Whatever they do, it will need to provide a pretty kitten big impact to get players back into wvw, a lot of damage was done to it this week.

Cogbyrn.7283:

vespers.1759:

This comment is literally a giant middle finger to us.

Why?

Because he admits they kitten WvW and rushed it out the door before it was finished. They will still take money for this of course, despite it being a broken and unfinished product, with the vague promise it’ll be fixed “in the future”

Well it’s been 3 years and WvW is still garbage so what makes this time any different? They set an unreasonable deadline and instead of respecting us and waiting they went forward and screwed us.

The gaming industry is plagued with people that enable this kind of behaviour and it kittenes me off. If you ordered a hamburger and it came undercooked you’d send it back. If you bought a car and it had no wheels you’d send it back. But for some reason people are happy to purchase unfinished games and wait for a mysterious point in the future that it will all be fixed… except that never really works out does it?

You’re purchasing an ever-changing service, not a product. I’ve played WvW fairly regularly for the past 3 years, even in its “garbage” state, and had an absolute blast.

If they release late, they get yelled at by someone else other than you who says they are giving players the middle finger by not hurrying up. They push out what they have done at their deadline and continue work, and someone like you comes out and says they are giving us the middle finger by admitting that they didn’t get as far as they’d like and they still have work to do.

Company sets unreasonable deadline that results in unfinished product… fanboy claims we’ll yell at them for “releasing late” when they are not required to make a release announcement at all. Not my fault they couldn’t deliver on their promises. They didn’t have to rush HoT out the door, they chose to.

Also many other games including Bioshock Infinite were applauded for pushing release back to make sure the game was as good as it could be. I would actually be PLEASED if they had postponed HoT to make it better, as would anyone that wants a decent expansion. Instead we get something rushed and Anet shrugs, pockets your money and promises to do better in the future.

erKo.9586:

If anet brings us back 1 of the old maps so many players would return.
1 – EB
2- Homeborder(Old map)
3- New stupid map
4- New stupid map

Then i would return – also make the auto-loot work in WvW.

Lol this made me chuckle.

You do realize each server has a home border map eh? Or just one server gets it?

honestly , they didnt wanna listen to the player base. its not that the map was rushed and unfinished, its not a wvw map at all… its a pvp oriented pve map and not a wvw map.
there is no fixing this map as it is far too complex to be a wvw map. automated upgrades and maze/jumping pussle like keeps are ruining this map for me.

a keep should be a keep. check out castles and keeps irl or even fantasy movies if u have to. for example why cant i leave the spawn even in a normal way? why didnt they keep the map simple and the keeps? the more u clutter it with ai the more laggy it gets, so i dont even wann go there and stop forcing pve into this game mode.
also main issue is, the lack of wpoints for me. the same issue is with eotm. u log onto the map and the commander is somewhere north….
of trying to find my way through the stupid maze and finally catching up with the commander that was just wiped by enemy zerg. now i gotta run again. i spend 100 times more on running all over the place than actually engaging with the enemy.

i play wvw because i like the fights i dont need to be antizerg gated by anet, which is what they tried to do.

a map that is massive and not really fun for me as solo, as i barely meet anyone ever on the map and for group play its gated by pve mobs that are in the way, pve shrines, pve events pve collecting events, jumping puzzles and a huge cimplex area so even groups miss eachother. defending is also useless as the keeps are too complex and ai is replacing well placed sieging.

wvw was fun when we would actually take time with sieging and yakslapping and fighting guilds would zergbust. the new map is not unfinished, its not a real wvw map.

vespers.1759:

Company sets unreasonable deadline that results in unfinished product… fanboy claims we’ll yell at them for “releasing late” when they are not required to make a release announcement at all. Not my fault they couldn’t deliver on their promises. They didn’t have to rush HoT out the door, they chose to.

Also many other games including Bioshock Infinite were applauded for pushing release back to make sure the game was as good as it could be. I would actually be PLEASED if they had postponed HoT to make it better, as would anyone that wants a decent expansion. Instead we get something rushed and Anet shrugs, pockets your money and promises to do better in the future.

You’re right. Because I don’t hate a developer, I must be a fanboy.

The Desert BL looks pretty finished to me. All of the HoT content looks pretty finished to me. The Reaper spec I’ve been playing feels very polished and finished to me.

The community was demanding they own up to their mistakes. They mentioned that they didn’t make as much progress as they wanted, but the things mentioned in the quote include:

Population, which I have no idea how they are going to “fix”. People are going to be people, leaving and joining new worlds on a whim, or not queuing if they are further behind than an obvious train would suggest.

Nightcapping, which I personally don’t even think is an issue. WvW is a 24/7 game mode, recruit the coverage or deal with the loss.

Scoring, which is probably going to be a fluid system change, not some one-and-done “fix”.

Rewards, which, I don’t even know what exactly that means. I don’t WvW for rewards, I WvW to fight people.

All in all, saying it’s an unfinished product is over-dramatization to the point where I imagine you sweeping your hand exaggeratedly up to your forehead and saying “Woe…” after finishing your post.

If you’re unhappy, get a refund, delete your account, and leave the game forever. If you really want to make a point to a company, you have to do it with your wallet. I’ve enjoyed this expansion so far, so they can keep my money. I’m going to get a whole lot more enjoyment out of it in the months to come. It isn’t like this is Batman: Arkham Knight. They just need to do some more work on some of the systems to try to accommodate what people claim they want.

I never said i hate the developers. I’m not sure where you read that? Perhaps you should quote me so i can see? That’s what i thought. Disliking the expansion does not equal hating the game or the devs. In fact i rather enjoy the elements they have gotten right, of which there are many, but it’s the ones they didn’t that are the problem.

And don’t worry i haven’t preordered the expansion… Yes i consider hot a preorder until we see raids and the mysterious planned things they are going to be adding.

This is actually terrible news.

Looking at how much Anet’s vision for WvW (see new fail BL) differs from WvW players’ view of the game mode, it’s probably better if they just leave it alone and let it die a slow death (though with this new BL, that death might not be so slow).

OP,

In all fairness, there are many posts complaining about nightcapping.

Post is alright I guess. Frankly, I think it’s better than it was two years ago when they were truly out of touch IMO with “NEW AND EXCITING” things that seemed almost used in an ironic sense and certain posts from the development that just made me go “holy crap, you have no kittening clue and are incredibly patronizing”, but I won’t name any names. =p Let’s just say I wasn’t a big fan of tournaments at times.

At least now they should realize not all is right in wvw land.

By no means do I think this boat is steered anywhere near the right direction, but a willingness to adapt to the situation is needed on both ends.

I would definitely like to also agree with points that feedback is important to provide, not anger. There’s too many times I feel the development team will make very short posts and I feel it is because of fear of being taken out of context or have their words twisted over a matter of semantics, and this doesn’t apply to this section only. Even though I’ve already dumped all my spare points in PvF defense, it is still not enough. (Sorry, I’ve resorted to spending my ability points on imaginary things) Now, I’d like to also point out many people do not do this and do provide very high quality feedback across the boards, but there are definitely a few folks out there that are making matters worse— not that I believe everyone should be punished for the actions of those few though but just because a red post seems to have posted something objectionable doesn’t mean you have to mash the post reply button. Step away from the keyboard.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

2) If they havent had time during original devlopment; if they havent have time after launch, if they havent have time after china release, if they havent hate much time during the expansion development, if they havent had time in the last 3 years; when will they ever have time for WvW?!

You cant just come after 3 years and say you didnt have time!
“it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion” means you didnt have time!
This excuse is totally unacceptable especially after the criticisms with the HoT release not giving much to veteran players! And now complaints that the story is too short.
What makes you think people will ever buy gems let alone another expansion in the future?!

As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details,

You been saying this since launch! You cannot use the same excuse for 3 whole years!
In 3 years the only major thing we’ve got is this new map which most people hate because you apparently listened to us and then did the complete opposite!

I don’t know their work,but I guess it went about like this:
-gw2 release
-many things have been changed as we know
-need to rework and test the map with ruins
-eotm development took an eternity.
-after that I’m sure they have been working on the dessert map for at least 1.5 years.
-and partially things like new siege weapons and event weeks (no matter how they turned out cough)

So basically they have been developing maps during the 3 years. And you should know that this is extremely time consuming and requires hundreds or even thousands of hours of testing.

As I said I’m also not very happy with wvw development BUT the most important thing from this post is the information that they are working on things players requested. This may sound like it’s normal but I guess after all this time of silence many people believed that things like nightcap work the way they are intended.
And the negation of this makes me happy, because I can at least believe again that they are working on these very important things.
And of course we have no idea if they actually had enough employees for the amount of work you have to put in this game mode.
I am definitely a fanboy and we don’t know yet how things may turn out but only the news is already something imo.

But actually I don’t see a reason why they would not talk to players about things like the nightcap issue. It’s a very difficult problem and there are hundreds of ideas in the forum. I’d like to see a statement maybe once a month which tactics they tried to adress this issue and why they may not have worked. Then they can get feedback and maybe some other ideas from the community and we also constantly know that they are working on something but just can’t find the right solution, which is absolutely legit.
I don’t say that they have to talk about all new content they are trying but this could be a topic where discussion is very possible and important.

@archonwing
I guess you misunderstood something. I didn’t say anything about nightcap posts. Only that I’m happy to see that they actually see it as a problem to adress and not to work as intended.

I mostly agree on the other things. Especially the feedback part is very tricky.

well for most wvwer following forums they do admit they make mistakes about wvw(every so often) its just the lack of fixes and anything at all that has the community up in arms.

coglin.1867:

Feedback is one thing. Outright bashing and disingenuously claiming they said stuff that they did not, is another. This type of accusation and QQ when they try to open WvW dialogue is exactly why we receive so little dialogue.

Perhaps it would be wiser to offer your complaints in a more constructive manner. When you make post that cannot be stomached, how can you reasonably expect your feedback to be digested?

Apparently you now know why we receive so little dialogue….this coming from someone who is forever telling us our views aren’t representative….

Back here in reality, the reason we get so little dialogue is because they have nothing useful to tell us. Otherwise they would be shouting about it and hyping like mad.

The latest message just tells us what most of us already know, wvw is way down on their list and they might get around to addressing the issues that have in existence for three years at some point in the future if resources aren’t needed elsewhere.

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

Well Anet definately lost the WvW players in the new map. Seems like everyone is now jamming into EBG. Way to go Anet you definitely cant distinguish the difference between PVE and WVW. You lost alot of people with one shot.

I too view this as a big middle finger from ANET.

When you trim out all the fluff to soften the blow, he is basically saying that they prioritized for the expansion and WvW didn’t make the cut. This is confirming what anyone who’s head isn’t in the sand already knows, that the WvW community and the game mode is an afterthought.

I am really surprised that the same few people continue to support ANET on these boards despite everything ANET does to blatantly contradict them. You are either blind or sponsored damage control. /shrug

The sad thing is, that ANET doesn’t realize that when WvW guilds leave the game, they take nearly everyone with them. This includes the PvE and sPvP players in those guilds.

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

cillard.3986:

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

You should make a thread expanding on this for us to read.

cillard.3986:

Notsoperky.2348:

At least they admitted they released the new maps without really testing them or finishing them Maybe next time they will ask real wvw players to test from an early stage and then listen and act in the feedback.

My worry is that it may be too late.

The absolutely DID invite entire WvW guilds into the beta testing. My guild is one of those that was invited and we perhaps one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent, WvW guilds in NA.

We took our time to test their game, because we care about it that much, and spent our time writing up feedback about the glaring issues we found with the new maps. For the most part, they were completely ignored. Whether it was due to lack of resources or lack of importance, who can say….. but those people still defending ANET at this point need to get a grip. These forums are getting spammed with complaints about the very issues we raised to ANET literally months and months ago. They chose to ignore them and implement the maps as is.

(read this before it automagically disappears, as criticism usually does)

Good lord, you have the privilege to help mold a game mode by providing feedback, for a game you supposedly love, and you act like it’s this huge chore that ANet should grovel at your feet for you even thinking about doing. You must have expected that every piece of anything you submitted would be immediately changed, but that isn’t how feedback works.

What was your feedback? You spent your time writing it up, what sorts of things did it involve? What do you feel is a reasonable timeframe for those issues to be resolved? What feedback did ANet receive from other guilds? What feedback resulted in changes (since you said “mostly”)?

I think ANet made a mistake with the Desert BL design, but I’m still giving it a shot. Regardless, this spoiled child attitude is something I’ll never agree with.

I would have loved to have been part of the feedback process, regardless of what they did with said feedback. It’s an honor to be brought in to be a part of any sort of feedback process for any product you love/enjoy.

ArchonWing.9480:

I would definitely like to also agree with points that feedback is important to provide, not anger. There’s too many times I feel the development team will make very short posts and I feel it is because of fear of being taken out of context or have their words twisted over a matter of semantics, and this doesn’t apply to this section only. Even though I’ve already dumped all my spare points in PvF defense, it is still not enough. (Sorry, I’ve resorted to spending my ability points on imaginary things) Now, I’d like to also point out many people do not do this and do provide very high quality feedback across the boards, but there are definitely a few folks out there that are making matters worse— not that I believe everyone should be punished for the actions of those few though but just because a red post seems to have posted something objectionable doesn’t mean you have to mash the post reply button. Step away from the keyboard.

As long as the feedback continues to get ignored and the community continues to be an afterthought, the anger is to be expected. It isn’t realistic to expect people to remain calm and civil when you keep poking them with the proverbial stick. What makes it even worse is the over moderation of that criticism, because it makes the company look extremely bad.

We did want changes to WvW and ANET did provide them. You can see where they tried to meet our requests regarding the new maps and design, and I am glad they “tried”. Unfortunately they did it without really understanding of was being requested by the community. I mean the artwork on the new maps is absolutely amazing, but the game play on it is complete and total crap.

So anyways, we had beta and WvW specific guilds were invited to test the new maps. We found numerous problems with the maps in both a game design and layout. They just weren’t as fun, even with the map full, as the old maps were. We reported this to ANET during beta, asked for less of a ‘jumping puzzle’ feel (vertical shift), reduction in size, removal of the gimmicky crap, and reduction of the agro NPCs.

Exactly how much of that feedback from beta was acted on? Yeah, exactly. People are angry and they have a right to be. ANET can handle it gracefully, by being responsive and open with their customers. That would at least make people feel like their voices were being heard and that the company gives a crap about them, right? I think the current policy of not responding to the glaring issues period and silencing any and all critics is the wrong approach. That only serves to stoke the flames.

Perhaps they should change their approach on the subject…..

We are just the stress test for china market, i’m curious to know how they (china) will welcome mew maps.

Lets be real here. Nothing will happen until another MMO comes out, drags the WvW playerbase over, management decides to fight back and another time x (whatever good development cycle is. My best guess is around 15 months) to actually fix WvW.
So set your alarm clock for CU release and then watch if something happens. Up until then its just hot air and talks.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Good lord, you have the privilege to help mold a game mode by providing feedback, for a game you supposedly love, and you act like it’s this huge chore that ANet should grovel at your feet for you even thinking about doing.

I would have loved to have been part of the feedback process, regardless of what they did with said feedback. It’s an honor to be brought in to be a part of any sort of feedback process for any product you love/enjoy.

Beta testing software isn’t a privilege and it isn’t an honor. For a gaming company it is free labor to leverage people heavily invested in the product to do something they lack internal resources to do themselves. A non-gaming software company pays internal staff to beta test as well as opening up to the outside if it is a new version of an existing product. For other businesses, beta testing is a matter of self preservation to make sure that the product or process they are implementing doesn’t hurt them.

Also, the entire purpose of the beta test is to ensure that the product is viable before being released. Viable, meaning that it is free of any major bugs and does what it is supposed to do. If you find out during testing that your product has a major design flaw, you don’t just go ahead and release it anyways. No point in beta testing if you have no intention of fixing glaring issues before release.

I am glad you are a fan of the company. Good for you, but don’t you dare attack me because I am displeased with my time being wasted, my feedback being ignored, and being sold a product with a major design flaw.

New map is fine beside a lack of waypoints, it’s all the core issues he mention that are the problem, and also having completely unreliable server machines that choke and lag out as soon as there is a battle in Stonemist doesn’t help.

They need to fix population issues, add PPK, change PPT, add rewards for ranks, add waypoints in the new map, make EotM a server map, bring back Alpine BL and stop having 3 copies of the same map.

cillard.3986:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Good lord, you have the privilege to help mold a game mode by providing feedback, for a game you supposedly love, and you act like it’s this huge chore that ANet should grovel at your feet for you even thinking about doing.

I would have loved to have been part of the feedback process, regardless of what they did with said feedback. It’s an honor to be brought in to be a part of any sort of feedback process for any product you love/enjoy.

Beta testing software isn’t a privilege and it isn’t an honor. For a gaming company it is free labor to leverage people heavily invested in the product to do something they lack internal resources to do themselves. A non-gaming software company pays internal staff to beta test as well as opening up to the outside if it is a new version of an existing product. For other businesses, beta testing is a matter of self preservation to make sure that the product or process they are implementing doesn’t hurt them.

Also, the entire purpose of the beta test is to ensure that the product is viable before being released. Viable, meaning that it is free of any major bugs and does what it is supposed to do. If you find out during testing that your product has a major design flaw, you don’t just go ahead and release it anyways. No point in beta testing if you have no intention of fixing glaring issues before release.

I am glad you are a fan of the company. Good for you, but don’t you dare attack me because I am displeased with my time being wasted, my feedback being ignored, and being sold a product with a major design flaw.

I’m not attacking you as a person. I’m attacking the idea that you, and others, think all of their feedback should be incorporated immediately, because they know best. You have your opinion, you provide it, then the company collects opinions and acts however they think is best. Sometimes that involves not following your opinion. Or is there a major bug/exploit on the Desert BL that doesn’t make it a sandbox PvP experience with objectives to center activity around? Successful and viable are two different things, and based on what I’ve seen, Desert BL is perfectly viable. It just might not turn out to be successful, and perhaps the feedback you gave is shaping internal discussions on what to do in the future.

Business doesn’t move quickly. If you’ve never worked with/for a large company, that’s something to know. And if you think ANet dropped the ball, get a refund, delete your account, and move on to a different game. Vote with your wallet. Throwing money at an organization while simultaneously saying they wronged the community isn’t the way to prove a point.

And if you think beta testing is free labor used to leverage people, why did you voluntarily take part in that system? It sounds like you don’t think very highly of it.

Great news! Faith restoring …

Except the choices they are making are screwing over WvW’ers hard core. Like making Proofs of Heroic Soulbound.

Might as well make Mastery character based.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m not attacking you as a person. I’m attacking the idea that you, and others, think all of their feedback should be incorporated immediately, because they know best. You have your opinion, you provide it, then the company collects opinions and acts however they think is best. Sometimes that involves not following your opinion.

Part of the problem is that ANET has been extremely out of touch with the WvW community since pretty much the beginning. I believe they tried to implement what the general consensus of what was asked for. Unfortunately, when you don’t really have a firm understanding of “why” things were being requested, you are going to have an impossible time implementing a solution that works.

What basically happened, and ANET just all but said it themselves, they ran out of time and resources to get everything done before the xpac and had to prioritize. WvW, per usual, was a casualty. Don’t kid yourself, this is why the feedback was ignored before HoT release. The new maps were flawed from the very beginning and they were part of the triage process.

Sorry, but from a design standpoint, they quite obviously have no idea what it best. You have people complaining about the new maps here, on reddit, on the wvw boards, polls showing up to 80% of the player base hating them, and various social media outlets. Not just your normal level of complaining either, they are massive amounts of complaints.

No matter how you try to spin it, it isn’t my opinion and it isn’t the opinion of a few. If your head isn’t in the sand, it is readily apparent. Lastly ….regarding the “incorporated immediately” nonsense: Immediately? No, they have know the maps were problematic since the beginning. Way way more than enough time to fix them before HoT IF it has been a priorty. The truth is, WvW just wasnt a priority.

…and yes, when you imply things about someone, it is just a veiled personal attack. So for the sake of civility, knock it off.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Or is there a major bug/exploit on the Desert BL that doesn’t make it a sandbox PvP experience with objectives to center activity around? Successful and viable are two different things, and based on what I’ve seen, Desert BL is perfectly viable.

Depends on your definition of viable. Is it a viable in the sense that the game runs? Sure, well when it doesn’t randomly crash clients in big fights or server lag so badly that none of the buttons you press work. Is it viable in the sense that the product meets the specifications of its target audience? Absolutely not.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Business doesn’t move quickly. If you’ve never worked with/for a large company, that’s something to know.

Again….. what is with comments like this from you? If you did less trolling and more reading, it is quite obvious from my previous response that your way way off base even directing this rude belittling my way. I was spot on about my assessment of beta testing from the viewpoints of a gaming company, a regular software company, and from an IT perspective. You only have that insight with direct experience.

Of the three, a gaming company is the only one that can get away with pushing out badly designed product. Unfortunately most companies fail to realize is that while it may be a good short term solution, it generally burns them long term. There are gaming companies I will never by another game from again because of their lack of integrity, and I know I can’t be the only person out there like that.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And if you think beta testing is free labor used to leverage people, why did you voluntarily take part in that system? It sounds like you don’t think very highly of it.

That is quite the conclusion you jumped to from my comments and it is also quite wrong. My statement earlier explained it perfectly fine, so I am not sure how you got that out of it.

You think it is a privilege to beta test. No offense, but that is laughable.

The truth is that it is a necessity because MMO gaming companies literally lack the resources to be able to fully test something on the scale that is needed. There IS a reason why most companies reward beta testers for their time instead of just relying on the warm fuzzy feeling the tester gets just for the “honor” of being invited …..

As to why someone would voluntarily take part in an xpac beta test for a game they have already been playing for a couple of years. Hmmm…. I wonder?

Yes, a little sarcasm and snark. Sorry, but it was more than a little deserved.

I believe they only ran two beta tests on the new map. The very first day of testing I saw a few wvw guilds and famous commanders around. The second day the maps were already empty.

On the second test they invited a new round of players, but they forgot to inform the players from the first test that they also could test it out still. Leading to the second day Anet having to post a thread to players to remind them of such. In any case the testing was dead for that entire second beta.

Also they held these test on the weekdays, you know the days where we don’t get full wvw participation. The Pve tests however were done on the weekends cause you know that’s when most players are more likely going to be playing the game.

If a company says “Who wants to beta test this update?”, and 1000 people volunteer, if they choose 100, those 100 are privileged by definition. They are extended a right others aren’t, whether it is random or intentional selection. You’re right, why wouldn’t people who have played a game for years, and love it, chomp at the bit to beta test something new?

I wasn’t invited (for good reason, I don’t claim to be anybody), but I would have loved to provide feedback. Also, if you provide structural design feedback, you put them back to the drawing board. How long do you think it took to design, create, and initially test those maps? How long will it take for them to scale down verticality, shrink, and still ensure there aren’t obvious exploits in an updated version of the map? That could take upwards of 6 months to a year to finish, and your feedback could have put them on the road to doing that. Throwing bodies at the problem to try to rush changes in for expac release probably wouldn’t have solved the problem. In fact, in that case, we probably would have gotten a half-finished map rife with exploits/bugs.

Do they owe us all a roadmap? No. Do they owe you a roadmap because you were chosen for a beta? No. You aren’t paying a subscription. You aren’t forced to pay more than the cost of the game/expac. You aren’t a shareholder (are you? Maybe you are) with investment in the success of the product. It’s just your hobby. The best you can do is say what direction you’d like it to go, and if they choose to go that direction, great for you (and potentially terrible for someone else). If they choose not to, you have a choice to continue that hobby or take your dollars elsewhere.

You just seem offended that they “ignored” your feedback, and I don’t understand why. At the very least they collected it directly as part of an organized test.

EDIT – I was part of the beta for War of the Vikings a while back. I played quite a bit, gave feedback from my perspective, and the developer decided to take the game in a direction that I didn’t like functionally. I ended up not playing their game, but it could be that their direction was much more popular overall. I don’t resent them for “ignoring” my feedback. I’m just a bit bummed that a cool game took a design route I found much less enjoyable.

You can be bummed that the current map is huge, wildly vertical, and potentially detrimental to WvW. I’m concerned as well. You just seem to be making it personal.

I’m more of the opinion that fun in WvW is up to the players. If people hadn’t been clamoring for new maps, we probably would still have the old maps that worked fine. But people need developers to constantly give them new things to trigger their excitement instead of getting into the joy of simply having a large objective sandbox to PvP in with lots of other people. If WvW dies, I’ll believe it to be the people who killed it. It’s usually that way with more open-world PvP.

cillard.3986:

ArchonWing.9480:

I would definitely like to also agree with points that feedback is important to provide, not anger. There’s too many times I feel the development team will make very short posts and I feel it is because of fear of being taken out of context or have their words twisted over a matter of semantics, and this doesn’t apply to this section only. Even though I’ve already dumped all my spare points in PvF defense, it is still not enough. (Sorry, I’ve resorted to spending my ability points on imaginary things) Now, I’d like to also point out many people do not do this and do provide very high quality feedback across the boards, but there are definitely a few folks out there that are making matters worse— not that I believe everyone should be punished for the actions of those few though but just because a red post seems to have posted something objectionable doesn’t mean you have to mash the post reply button. Step away from the keyboard.

As long as the feedback continues to get ignored and the community continues to be an afterthought, the anger is to be expected. It isn’t realistic to expect people to remain calm and civil when you keep poking them with the proverbial stick. What makes it even worse is the over moderation of that criticism, because it makes the company look extremely bad.

Anger is to be expected, but I still think my point stands in regards to acting for one’s interests. I am also honestly not seeing this so called over-moderation. I mean personally, a good fifth of my post reach the conclusion that they really don’t know what they’re doing and I’ve only gotten infracted like once? And that was just for insulting someone personally so I couldn’t really say I was innocent. I honestly think if one is regularly getting deleted, they should phrase their comments better.

Can’t really comment on the beta as I was personally shut out, but it seems to me that the beta was just so late and I do think it’s probably their fault for having so many things set in stone and then telling people too late… sometimes only a week in advance as we can see with liquid xp.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a company says “Who wants to beta test this update?”, and 1000 people volunteer, if they choose 100, those 100 are privileged by definition.

You obviously are just trolling and being argumentative for the sake of it. What I quoted it all I read, no point in continuing with your nonsense.

Every 6 months they say it. I don’t trust anymore.

cillard.3986:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a company says “Who wants to beta test this update?”, and 1000 people volunteer, if they choose 100, those 100 are privileged by definition.

You obviously are just trolling and being argumentative for the sake of it. What I quoted it all I read, no point in continuing with your nonsense.

I know how to troll when I want to, and this isn’kitten I am just tired of the type of feedback running rampant on these forums.

Imagine a scenario where ANet hires a team of posters to systematically attack anyone who has an idea or posts anything of substance on the forums. They respond abrasively, use that person’s post history against them, and otherwise shut them down. Then a year or two down the road, the developer starts to ask why they never get communication from a community who abandoned the forums, they demand better communication so they can deliver a better product, and when a post finally comes through with some feedback, then bombard it into the ground again. They claim the players know nothing, but that they have to share their vision. They argue that they are providing a service for the players, and so the players are responsible for taking part in a discourse, even though their idea of discourse is less than appealing.

Wouldn’t that be the stupidest set of abusive, tyrannical circumstances you can imagine? So why exactly can consumers get away with it? It’s insane to me, regardless of the fact that I am seriously concerned that ANet dropped the ball with the over-design of the Desert BL.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Imagine a scenario where ANet hires a team of posters to systematically attack anyone who has an idea or posts anything of substance on the forums. They respond abrasively, use that person’s post history against them, and otherwise shut them down. Then a year or two down the road, the developer starts to ask why they never get communication from a community who abandoned the forums, they demand better communication so they can deliver a better product, and when a post finally comes through with some feedback, then bombard it into the ground again. They claim the players know nothing, but that they have to share their vision. They argue that they are providing a service for the players, and so the players are responsible for taking part in a discourse, even though their idea of discourse is less than appealing.

Wouldn’t that be the stupidest set of abusive, tyrannical circumstances you can imagine? So why exactly can consumers get away with it?

My last answer in this thread.

The recent posts have been the same QQ again or some very offtopic discussion. This is not what the thread was intended for, so if a moderator reads this please close my thread right here. It’s going nowhere.

As the worst unintentional thread derailer on the forum, let me get this back on topic.

I do think it’s a positive that WvW was mentioned and I do think that at the very least, it bodes well for some much-needed love and attention.

Who knows? Based on that posting, they may have something just around the corner ready for release (like a month), it just needed some final polish.

Can only hope that it’s something everyone goes crazy for, like gear salvaging was received.

Entenkommando.5208:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Imagine a scenario where ANet hires a team of posters to systematically attack anyone who has an idea or posts anything of substance on the forums. They respond abrasively, use that person’s post history against them, and otherwise shut them down. Then a year or two down the road, the developer starts to ask why they never get communication from a community who abandoned the forums, they demand better communication so they can deliver a better product, and when a post finally comes through with some feedback, then bombard it into the ground again. They claim the players know nothing, but that they have to share their vision. They argue that they are providing a service for the players, and so the players are responsible for taking part in a discourse, even though their idea of discourse is less than appealing.

Wouldn’t that be the stupidest set of abusive, tyrannical circumstances you can imagine? So why exactly can consumers get away with it?

My last answer in this thread.

The recent posts have been the same QQ again or some very offtopic discussion. This is not what the thread was intended for, so if a moderator reads this please close my thread right here. It’s going nowhere.

Sorry for deviating. My only real response to the OP is that I agree they haven’t forgotten WvW. I understand people saying “They’ve been saying this for years/months and nothing changes”, but at the end of the day even being open and honest about dropping some of the ball for WvW is a good thing, in my opinion.

I’m a generally optimistic fellow though in all walks of life, and I’m still finding enjoyment in roaming around WvW so far.

Cogbyrn.7283:

cillard.3986:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a company says “Who wants to beta test this update?”, and 1000 people volunteer, if they choose 100, those 100 are privileged by definition.

You obviously are just trolling and being argumentative for the sake of it. What I quoted it all I read, no point in continuing with your nonsense.

I know how to troll when I want to, and this isn’kitten I am just tired of the type of feedback running rampant on these forums.

Imagine a scenario where ANet hires a team of posters to systematically attack anyone who has an idea or posts anything of substance on the forums. They respond abrasively, use that person’s post history against them, and otherwise shut them down. Then a year or two down the road, the developer starts to ask why they never get communication from a community who abandoned the forums, they demand better communication so they can deliver a better product, and when a post finally comes through with some feedback, then bombard it into the ground again. They claim the players know nothing, but that they have to share their vision. They argue that they are providing a service for the players, and so the players are responsible for taking part in a discourse, even though their idea of discourse is less than appealing.

Wouldn’t that be the stupidest set of abusive, tyrannical circumstances you can imagine? So why exactly can consumers get away with it? It’s insane to me, regardless of the fact that I am seriously concerned that ANet dropped the ball with the over-design of the Desert BL.

Or you could imagine a scenario where they tell you they are working on a vague something never respond when valid feedback is given, and then 3 years go by. Oh wait…

I really feel that their design philosophy of not sharing anything with us until its so far along in the development doesn’t work for wvw. Those of you that think you were actually beta testing on those beta weekends are delusional. They were promotional weekends to build hype. Sure maybe some minor things were able to be tweaked from feedback, but it was way too late in the development process to make any meaningful changes for HoT.