Guild Wars 2

So I have yet to see anything regarding the thief mechanics OR animations (anet culling) listed in the fixes as of late. I find it rather hard to digest that ANET would ignore the largest issue with WvW other than culling (self inflicted) that is apparent to me be ignored. Thieves are at this point are ruining WvW for the solo and low group contingent. Should a thief really be able to peramastealth a group of three and kill them and actually feel like they bested those players? It’s completely ridiculous that this happens.

Thiefs are balanced tbh. I personally have more problems with very agressive warriors or guards with 10 minute burns.
Sure, they use culling a bit but you can just spam “target nearest” to see them. It really isn’t that much of an issue.

Thief players seem to underestimate how valuable it is to be able to drop everyone targeting you. Even if you spam “target nearest/last” you have the chance of targeting other mobs or ppl. That is why stealth is always a crutch and is needed by bad players so they can do good.

That being said Thieves themselves can’t be blamed because of culling and since it is just part of their class mechanic they aren’t exploiting in anyway.

Anet just stated today they are working on the culling issue. when it is fixed Thieves will be much easier to deal with by general players because they can no longer get 1-2 skills off while they are still totally invisible.

Right now GW2 Rogues are just doing what they are best known for, Ganking noobs.

+1 to OP.

I’ve noticed even fighting 1v1 there’s always (or usually?) like 1 second of ‘culling’ when coming out of stealth where they basically get the first couple hits in before even appearing and it’s not that culling from large numbers of players on the screen.

Last night on my thief I took down 2 ballistas from full in the middle of about 6 people spamming all over. Took 5+ mins and I didn’t die. On the way out, a couple of them left, I killed 2 of the people (probably 1v3 don’t remember), and escaped with my life. Perhaps a little luck too but this shouldn’t really be possible to get away with, with that many people doing all they could to stop me. And this was not the numbers where true culling happens.

With my build now (not D/D), 1v2s are generally not difficult and 1v3s (lvl 80s) are very possible (depends on classes), given enough time.

Blind, block, and dodge rolls are soft counters that can prolong a fight but some harder counters are needed to stealth. Like a conditional mechanic that would bring them out of stealth (say if they took 20% of their total hp in that instance of being hidden).

At least disable the initial cast of Shadow Step while CCed because that just seems like a game breaking escape skill to me.

TL;DR: Reworking the stealth/escape mechanics on theif are needed. More lazy damage nerfs are NOT needed.

IMO.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Thiefs are balanced tbh. I personally have more problems with very agressive warriors or guards with 10 minute burns.
Sure, they use culling a bit but you can just spam “target nearest” to see them. It really isn’t that much of an issue.

What would really “fix” thieves, is to let them stealth so they can’t be hit and can either run or set up their next attack but…

They do not lose targetting. i.e. you don’t have to re-select them when they pop back into view. This would eliminate using culling as “extra stealth” and balance the mechanic to be more like protection and other items that other classes get. I have yet to see anyone not a thief have a problem with this idea..

Note: This doesn’t mean that they can be viewed at all when they are stealthed, so it’s not like their red circle would show when stealth.

Zephyrus.9680:

+1 to OP.

I’ve noticed even fighting 1v1 there’s always (or usually?) like 1 second of ‘culling’ when coming out of stealth where they basically get the first couple hits in before even appearing and it’s not that culling from large numbers of players on the screen.

Last night on my thief I took down 2 ballistas from full in the middle of about 6 people spamming all over. Took 5+ mins and I didn’t die. On the way out, a couple of them left, I killed 2 of the people (probably 1v3 don’t remember), and escaped with my life. Perhaps a little luck too but this shouldn’t really be possible to get away with, with that many people doing all they could to stop me. And this was not the numbers where true culling happens.

With my build now (not D/D), 1v2s are generally not difficult and 1v3s (lvl 80s) are very possible (depends on classes), given enough time.

Blind, block, and dodge rolls are soft counters that can prolong a fight but some harder counters are needed to stealth. Like a conditional mechanic that would bring them out of stealth (say if they took 20% of their total hp in that instance of being hidden).

At least disable the initial cast of Shadow Step while CCed because that just seems like a game breaking escape skill to me.

TL;DR: Reworking the stealth/escape mechanics on theif are needed. More lazy damage nerfs are NOT needed.

IMO.

Add counters to any and all of their stealth skills and “mass-movement” abilities like every other class has, or cut the range on all of them to <450 each with a 5 second global timer and you’d see a lot less abuse of the current mechanics and they’d actually be much more balanced.

I don’t have a problem with the idea of stealth, or the ability to rapidly move and doge, that’s what a thief is, stealth, mobility and damage. However, being able to move beyond 1500 range in <3 seconds from a standing stop where both classes are running the same combat speed, and abusing any system lag, etc to spam stealth via culling or mass-mobility abilities is a bit much.

Funny I come across this thread just having logged off right after a thief that was standing what seamed like a mile away suddenly killed me in 3 seconds never to be seen again. Broken is broken. I’m out of WvW untill this gets fixed. Yes I know I need to learn to play my class or stay out of WvW or roll a thief.

They aren’t ignoring it. They’ve given updates, and they’re making lots of progress. They even stated themselves that they believe a solution to remove the culling system entirely can and will be achieved.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Can-you-fix-it-culling

So please wait for these fixes to go into affect before nerfing a class.

fix stealth to reappear after getting hit will solve most problem

and this fixed with how OP Thief/Assassins class was in ALL MMOs
even the invisible well on EB’s Jumping Puzzle have this feature

SchuMidas.4782:

fix stealth to reappear after getting hit will solve most problem

and this fixed with how OP Thief/Assassins class was in ALL MMOs
even the invisible well on EB’s Jumping Puzzle have this feature

So since most of the dmg in this game is a PBAoE and/or channeled attacks that continue to do damage even after a thief, mesmer, ranger or others enter invisibility…they should automatically be removed from it? Don’t know if you know this but most thieves (even mine wearing full PVT gear) would get smashed in an even shorter period of time than I already am when out of stealth.

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Ninya.3942:

SchuMidas.4782:

fix stealth to reappear after getting hit will solve most problem

and this fixed with how OP Thief/Assassins class was in ALL MMOs
even the invisible well on EB’s Jumping Puzzle have this feature

So since most of the dmg in this game is a PBAoE and/or channeled attacks that continue to do damage even after a thief, mesmer, ranger or others enter invisibility…they should automatically be removed from it? Don’t know if you know this but most thieves (even mine wearing full PVT gear) would get smashed in an even shorter period of time than I already am when out of stealth.

and how many PBAoE they need to kill you ?
this comes from my experience where camps being ninjaed by 2 perma stealth thief and they took 10 of our player just to guard the camp
and in EB JP you will or you have experience how OP when it comes to 1 vs 3 you can still kitten your opponent and laugh on thier bodies

What amazes me is how many people assume they need a target to do attacks….. Yes even ranged can you just have to pan your camera down to a dead horizon sine you shoot at the angle your camera is set to.

even if you can hit thief for 2k each hit you still wont kill an stealth ed thief

SchuMidas.4782:

even if you can hit thief for 2k each hit you still wont kill an stealth ed thief

I’m sure all the times I died we’ll stealths and the hundreds of thieves I have killed well they are stealthed where just flukes then.

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

SchuMidas.4782:

Ninya.3942:

SchuMidas.4782:

fix stealth to reappear after getting hit will solve most problem

and this fixed with how OP Thief/Assassins class was in ALL MMOs
even the invisible well on EB’s Jumping Puzzle have this feature

So since most of the dmg in this game is a PBAoE and/or channeled attacks that continue to do damage even after a thief, mesmer, ranger or others enter invisibility…they should automatically be removed from it? Don’t know if you know this but most thieves (even mine wearing full PVT gear) would get smashed in an even shorter period of time than I already am when out of stealth.

and how many PBAoE they need to kill you ?
this comes from my experience where camps being ninjaed by 2 perma stealth thief and they took 10 of our player just to guard the camp
and in EB JP you will or you have experience how OP when it comes to 1 vs 3 you can still kitten your opponent and laugh on thier bodies

Depends on the attack and who fired it. I run a tankier spec myself and even I went down from a couple Whirlwind Attacks. (A couple warriors hid when we took Dreambay and jumped me from behind.)

@Columba: Need I bring up how GW2 doesn’t have a passive evade stat again?

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

Going to attempt to clear things up.

Attacks break stealth(well most, there are some bugs and attacks that don’t, such as caldrops and choking gas. Any direct attacks break stealth immediately, the ones you are experiencing). The reason why he still seems to be invisible is because of culling, which is being worked on and hopefully fixed in the future. If as system’s worked as intended, as soon as the thief strikes you should see him. Unfortunately do to the nature of running hundreds of players on a server, culling has to be put in place to prevent performance drops across the board.

Stealth just needs a hard counter. Thieves are really strong in small WvW skirmishes due to the wide open terrain (easy to juke players and escape if you need to) and near-instant health regen once you drop out of combat.

If players are having difficulty fighting 80-90% stealth uptime thieves—-which a lot are—-then they should have access to traits or utility skills to combat stealth.

3k armor and thief hits me for >10.5 k. could never see him. how is this balanced?

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

Going to attempt to clear things up.

Attacks break stealth(well most, there are some bugs and attacks that don’t, such as caldrops and choking gas. Any direct attacks break stealth immediately, the ones you are experiencing). The reason why he still seems to be invisible is because of culling, which is being worked on and hopefully fixed in the future. If as system’s worked as intended, as soon as the thief strikes you should see him. Unfortunately do to the nature of running hundreds of players on a server, culling has to be put in place to prevent performance drops across the board.

No, they don’t break stealth. Maybe they are supposed to, but they don’t.

Columba.9730:

3k armor and thief hits me for >10.5 k. could never see him. how is this balanced?

It’s broken. If you read my post above. Culling is the issue, and they’re working on removing it.

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.

You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.

BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.

You can target them. But they are probably going to be behind you meaning your tab will pick something else first, most likely. Best way to beat a thief is being mobile and slowing or stunning them, and also not being a glass cannon.

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

Which Stealth? There are multiple skills that grant the ability, or the “teleport” ability and they don’t share a global timer. In case you weren’t counting it “Shadowstep” counts as a ‘stealth like’ ability as well and there are at least three weapons with an ability that uses that as well.

Put them all (all stealth and rapid movement abilities) on the same 10-15 second global and you’d likely see a lot less complaints about the class. I believe someone said HS can be spammed, no timer and the range is how far? That’s about as close to a “teleport out of range” defensive type ability that I’ve seen, even if it was primarily meant as an offensive attribute.

Global timer, drastically shorten the range of any of the SS or HS abilities (450-600 max range, global timer also) and don’t let stealth drop target, but offer something like “protection” and not appearing ont he screen for X seconds and people would be happy. Well, all non thief players would be happy anyway. All the thief players who fully utilize the imbalanced mechanics currently in place wouldn’t like it much I bet..

Give them a better point/vit ratio if that makes them too weak as a compensation. shrugs

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.

You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.

BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.

sorry. It’s just that wvw is miserable when I can never see them, and we’ve been waiting for months for a fix. Tab targetting doesn’t work even with line of sight with them. I’ve tried. never get a target despite turning 360 degrees.

I haven’t seen proof that this can be fixed, and many of us are just leaving wvwvw because of it. Why not adjust stealth just for wvwvw until it’s fixed versus losing other players?

Ninya.3942:

You can target them. But they are probably going to be behind you meaning your tab will pick something else first, most likely. Best way to beat a thief is being mobile and slowing or stunning them, and also not being a glass cannon.

3k armor, 24k health. I still drop before being able to hit them. I run constantly spin, dodge etc. I can never target them. They cant be behind me every time.

It’s funny to read this. Yes thieves can be a pain in the kitten But just the other day I killed a thief when he tried to backstab me. We fought for some time already and he stealthed. I waited a couple of seconds and didn’t move on purpose, then I shattered all my illusions and tada: dead downed thief laying behind me

On other occasions a thief killed me in seconds, for I was not fast enough to blink out of the stun.

Honestly, thieves are not that OP as ppl describe it here. They are strong, especially against less experienced players. But I think, once culling is fixed, that many players will have way less problems with thieves.

Until then, we can train against thieves in harder conditions, making it harder for thieves later on, when they have lost a major advantage.

Columba.9730:

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.

You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.

BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.

sorry. It’s just that wvw is miserable when I can never see them, and we’ve been waiting for months for a fix. Tab targetting doesn’t work even with line of sight with them. I’ve tried. never get a target despite turning 360 degrees.

I haven’t seen proof that this can be fixed, and many of us are just leaving wvwvw because of it. Why not adjust stealth just for wvwvw until it’s fixed versus losing other players?

This is a great post by an Anet developer detailing what needs to be done in order to remove culling, and their progress so far

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Update-on-Culling/first#post1137307

The devs sound really optimistic that they can achieve this.

“So that’s where we are. Engine programmers are working their magic even now and we’re testing the networking changes that will be required. I believe that our goal of removing culling from WvW is achievable and I’m looking forward to the day that I can announce to you all that we’ve pulled it off!”

Generally I only have real problems with P/D thieves that will hit you with unload and be moving in for C&D before they even render, and are spec’d for long battles to wear you down. It seems the overwhelming majority of D/D’s go for mug over hidden thief, and you do have a chance to dodge backstab or at least not get hit from behind. You don’t see it very often, but honestly, S/D can be the worst if you are being constantly hit with daze. Other than that they do what most other classes can do, drop a big chunk of surprise damage on a low target.

Other than the culling issue, I think the other possible tweak needed is to shadow refuge. Few individual players or small groups of randoms pack the CC, AoE, and / or knowledge needed to force a player out. Once it’s done, the thief (and anyone else in it) basically has a free ticket to safety. DD ele’s can also easily move out of combat usually, but at least you can see them riding away.

Lastly, perhaps it’s not thought of much, but most players cannot be focused in like a laser 100% of the time ready to be ganked or constantly looking behind them. That’s why solo gankers generally like to camp out in spots where players are likely to be running in a fairly strait line with auto run and not paying attention, so they have surprise on their side while the target is thinking about what they will be doing rather than what they are doing.

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.

You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.

BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.

I think your looking at this the wrong way. If a class is broken as is don’t you think it would be fair to every other class that it is temporarily balanced to the current situation. I see no reason people cant exploit other glitches (and get banned for it) but when they exploit this (yes, it is an exploit) ANet just looks the other way :/ Seems like they have either high hopes of fixing this soon, or they are just big fans of Thieves. I personally think they’ve taken much longer than they should have to fix this and expect them to take even longer (for something that should have been fixed to start).

Edit: I would like to add that this is coming from someone who ONLY WvWs. As it stands its more frustrating than fun to play with current culling issues.

You guys are all stressing too much. Just accept the fact that you can’t kill thieves or d/d eles in a 1v1 fight, they will either kill you or escape when they fail. Just kite them near towers to get guard aggro or other groups of players to kill them, treat them like the overgrown grub, one of those things you simply avoid unless you have a group.

I don’t normally complain about thieves, but since I saw this thread I’ll comment. Thieves don’t normally bother me in a 1v1 situation because you are aware and their moves become easy to read with good timing and me being a mesmer makes it easier too. But I do sort of have a problem with them in skirmishes. If you’re not aware thieves can burst you in less than 2 seconds. They can pop in and out of the battle near unnoticeable and then just burst people down again, rinse and repeat etc.

-This ss: took over 20k damage in less than 2 secs and im not even glass cannon (2.5k armor)

Look at this way, learn how to counter them before they fix the culling. If you do so, imagine how easy they will be after the fix.

IMO thieves are the easiest class to kill, and no I’m not trolling, im serious. The thieves that can kill you in 2 hits, also die in 2 hits. Just keep your eyes open and strike first, or dodge, let them waste their initiative and strike again.

Causic.3798:

Doomdesire.9365:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

You don’t buy what? Stealth durations? Go to the wiki and look it up

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_thief_skills

If you are not seeing them its culling, it’s an Anet side problem and has nothing to do with how good you computer is.

ok, so since i can’t tab target them, and I can’t see them, how is it different than stealth again since they can stealth soon thereafter and I never can target them?

It isn’t, but why is that a reason to nerf a class, when culling is already being worked on? Opinions are nice, but yours isn’t helping. Be patient. Wait, and it will all get fixed eventually.

You don’t nerf a class because of a broken game mechanic that can be fixed. You fix that game mechanic.

BTW, you can tab target them, as it neglects culling, but tab targetting only works on targets in your line of sight, where he is not likely to be.

I think your looking at this the wrong way. If a class is broken as is don’t you think it would be fair to every other class that it is temporarily balanced to the current situation. I see no reason people cant exploit other glitches (and get banned for it) but when they exploit this (yes, it is an exploit) ANet just looks the other way :/ Seems like they have either high hopes of fixing this soon, or they are just big fans of Thieves. I personally think they’ve taken much longer than they should have to fix this and expect them to take even longer (for something that should have been fixed to start).

Edit: I would like to add that this is coming from someone who ONLY WvWs. As it stands its more frustrating than fun to play with current culling issues.

But why when culling is going to be fixed soon anyways? If you read the post, they already said a lot of the changes were being tested and going to be rolled out when ready. Anet isn’t going to ninja nerf the thief anytime soon, even if they decided it needed a nerf, it’d probably be implemented at the same time around culling.

If culling if fixed, and thieves are still “deemed OP”, then we move from there. I also don’t believe you realize what culling is and what exploiting is in relation to this. Culling will happen whether you go into stealth or not in wvw, with no choice from the thief player. Culling or not, thieves are going to utilize full stealth. Me, and many of my fellow thieves don’t go out into the field using stealth thinking (hey, I’m going to abuse culling!). It’s more like “Going to use stealth, because I have it!”. Culling itself isn’t an exploit, it’s a deliberate system put into place in order to have WvW run more smoothly, and this is the side effect. Anet is working on introducing optimizations in order to remove the culling system. They could if they wanted to right now, except WvW would be unplayable in zerg fights.

All is really explained in the link I posted earlier.

Josh P.1296:

I don’t normally complain about thieves, but since I saw this thread I’ll comment. Thieves don’t normally bother me in a 1v1 situation because you are aware and their moves become easy to read with good timing and me being a mesmer makes it easier too. But I do sort of have a problem with them in skirmishes. If you’re not aware thieves can burst you in less than 2 seconds. They can pop in and out of the battle near unnoticeable and then just burst people down again, rinse and repeat etc.

-This ss: took over 20k damage in less than 2 secs and im not even glass cannon (2.5k armor)

What’s your toughness? :P

Heh, it’s amusing that the vast majority of people defending the current thief as-is, play one.. Surprising? Not really..

Ninya.3942:

Josh P.1296:

I don’t normally complain about thieves, but since I saw this thread I’ll comment. Thieves don’t normally bother me in a 1v1 situation because you are aware and their moves become easy to read with good timing and me being a mesmer makes it easier too. But I do sort of have a problem with them in skirmishes. If you’re not aware thieves can burst you in less than 2 seconds. They can pop in and out of the battle near unnoticeable and then just burst people down again, rinse and repeat etc.

-This ss: took over 20k damage in less than 2 secs and im not even glass cannon (2.5k armor)

What’s your toughness? :P

To me it’s irrelevant how much armor, hp, or thoughness they have, they shouldn’t be going from 100% to 0 in less than 2 seconds (assuming they are lvl 80 with full exotics). That’s not even enough time to react once they’re on you. 11K damage in one hit… trebs don’t even do that much damage.

I have a glass cannon Mesmer build and I certainly can’t do that kind of damage to anyone even in triple the amount of time. Can you imagine if all glass cannon builds could do the same amount of burst damage that thieves can?

CriSPeH.8512:

Thief players seem to underestimate how valuable it is to be able to drop everyone targeting you. Even if you spam “target nearest/last” you have the chance of targeting other mobs or ppl. That is why stealth is always a crutch and is needed by bad players so they can do good.

That being said Thieves themselves can’t be blamed because of culling and since it is just part of their class mechanic they aren’t exploiting in anyway.

Anet just stated today they are working on the culling issue. when it is fixed Thieves will be much easier to deal with by general players because they can no longer get 1-2 skills off while they are still totally invisible.

Right now GW2 Rogues are just doing what they are best known for, Ganking noobs.

Agreed. Thieves are nothing more than a pest, they can only kill noobs and experienced players of any class can take them out with ease (or at least make them run like the coward they are)

There are much harder classes to deal with than them, thought having said that, the culling issue does need to be fixed.

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

I don’t care how “top of the line” your system is, you can’t solve server side issues >.<

Adaneshade.2409:

Columba.9730:

Samhayn.2385:

Columba.9730:

Other games have stealth break on damage and break upon attacking. I don’t understand why this game made stealth even more powerful than it is in other games. Even in other games stealth causes mass complaints although it’s less powerful.

Stealth lasts 4 sec (speced) unless its shadows refuge. No other game limits stealth to this short of a duration. Hence the reason it does not break on damage.
If it broke on damage it would be useless and we would be low hp/ low armor warriors with no group support.

I don’t buy it. I have a top of the line system and I rarely see a thief at all when he attacks me.

I don’t care how “top of the line” your system is, you can’t solve server side issues >.<

That proves my point. Because of culling, stealth lasts much longer than 4 seconds and can be permanent. Tab targeting doesn’t work either, so don’t tell me to try that. I agree with the guy who said to fix culling first then adjust. The problem is that I have low confidence that it can be fixed, and I am tired of waiting for balance in WvWvW. Thieves essentially make WvWvW unplayable for me right now. How long should we wait?

What class are you playing btw? I am in close contact with dueling juggernauts of every class that might could provide some vs thief tips.

Adaneshade.2409:

What class are you playing btw? I am in close contact with dueling juggernauts of every class that might could provide some vs thief tips.

I play a ranger. Largely specced for survivability.

Columba.9730:

Adaneshade.2409:

What class are you playing btw? I am in close contact with dueling juggernauts of every class that might could provide some vs thief tips.

I play a ranger. Largely specced for survivability.

K, I’ll get a ranger buddy of mine to send you a PM on the forums here to see if he might have some ideas to help out.

I never have a problem with other thieves with my own, they actually drop faster than any other class I face. With my warrior it’s even more simple to kill thieves, dodge when they get within 1200 for their mug ( you can tell a Backstab thief when you see Basilisk go up) stun, then burst. Dead within 3 secs, if it’s a P/D thief, time their C&D, make sure you have a purge and stun or K/D. Dodge the C&D, stun, burst. So easy, yet people are just too bad to admit they never spend time trying to counter and just QQ on forums.

Yes, but you play a thief. Of course you don’t have problems.

Zephyrus.9680:

+1 to OP.

I’ve noticed even fighting 1v1 there’s always (or usually?) like 1 second of ‘culling’ when coming out of stealth where they basically get the first couple hits in before even appearing and it’s not that culling from large numbers of players on the screen.

Last night on my thief I took down 2 ballistas from full in the middle of about 6 people spamming all over. Took 5+ mins and I didn’t die. On the way out, a couple of them left, I killed 2 of the people (probably 1v3 don’t remember), and escaped with my life. Perhaps a little luck too but this shouldn’t really be possible to get away with, with that many people doing all they could to stop me. And this was not the numbers where true culling happens.

With my build now (not D/D), 1v2s are generally not difficult and 1v3s (lvl 80s) are very possible (depends on classes), given enough time.

Blind, block, and dodge rolls are soft counters that can prolong a fight but some harder counters are needed to stealth. Like a conditional mechanic that would bring them out of stealth (say if they took 20% of their total hp in that instance of being hidden).

At least disable the initial cast of Shadow Step while CCed because that just seems like a game breaking escape skill to me.

TL;DR: Reworking the stealth/escape mechanics on theif are needed. More lazy damage nerfs are NOT needed.

IMO.

How about a stealth CD with a compounding factor. So the more times a thief goes into stealth during a single battle, the greater the stealth cooldown is each time after going back into stealth. To remove the “drop your balls and flee” BS, tie in a speed movement penalty (think of it as fatigue) that’ll mess with their run speed which would allow them to abuse fleeing to reset the fight (and the compounding stealth cooldown).