Recently I have switched my main from Ranger to Thief, and have identified one (of a few) major balancing issue. That issue happens to be with 1 auto attack skill that is capable of producing 10k+ damage in one hit… you read that right… Yes, this is 1 attack by 1 skill that consumes 0 initiative, but is capable of causing 10k+ damage… If I fail this attack, then I still have access to like 95% of my other skills to disengage or simply overwhelm an opponent.
Again… Yes, this is 1 attack by 1 skill that consumes 0 initiative and is capable of causing 10k+ damage… Want you all to think about that for a minute…
Currently thief and daredevil builds have access to high amounts of stealth, many evasion skills, high damage attacks, the ability to spam those high damage attacks, some of the fastest skill animations and responses of any profession, can outmaneuver and gap open and close better than all other professions… and has the optimal skill designs to dictate a fight by moving in and out of combat when desired… All of these I mentioned are already huge advantages over all professions, and there is absolutely no need to have… 1 attack by 1 skill that consumes 0 initiative and is capable of causing 10k+ damage.
I’m all for thief being the high damage and high maneuverability class, but I’m not ok with the unbalanced damage output, particularly when there is 1 attack by 1 skill that consumes 0 initiative that is capable of causing 10k+ damage.
Steal 1200 range. Slightly move to flank (side or behind) position. Backstab for 10k+. Follow through with dagger auto attacks… If the opponent is not dead, then you have access to most of your other high damage skills to finish them off or can flee at will to reset and repeat.
Or
Basilisk Venom. Steal 1200 range. Slightly move to flank (side or behind) position. Backstab for 10k+. Follow through with dagger auto attacks… If the opponent is not dead, then you have access to most of your other high damage skills to finish them off or can flee at will to reset and repeat.
Simply, the Backstab dagger skill needs to go (and flanking damage needs to be reviewed too)… It is not a healthy skill design, particularly at this stage in the game where thief has many great tools, as mentioned above, in the box to utilize during combat… Sure, we can analyze and compare and contrast each profession, but any rational minded person knows this skill is not “balanced” or healthy for competitive gameplay, especially a skill that is generated from an auto attack…
Thanks for reading!
Edit- and if any of you oppose my recommendation, then my suggestion is to provide more “realism” to combat by providing each profession a double damage boost from any side or back attack to balance… I’m sure that would not be a problem considering thief still has the 1up advantages of stealth, evades, positional mobility and quick high damage spam skills to compensate.
(edited by Swagger.1459)
I can hit 200k dmg on 1 aa too.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
Sounds like a great build. Care to share the details, or post some media?
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
I can be hit for basilisk and by the time my finger has moved to the button to break stun the thief has unloaded 8 skills on me and disappeared back in to stealth… and 10k backstabs aren’t hard to achieve, even against 3k armor targets.
Might stacking and full bloodlust stacks are easy to get (5 kills and you have your bloodlust…this isn’t pve).
Backstab is a single target skill, requires a thief be stealthed (which requires the use of another skill), requires positioning to do good damage, has a cool down when it misses and leaves the thief right on top of their opponent for better and worse. More importantly for a thief to land a BIG hit generally they have to be fairly glassy which in the current meta is problematic.
In multi-target situations its DPS is anemic compared to other attacks with higher base damage such as Grave Digger, Gunflame, Kill Shot, Churning Earth, Eviscerate and even Vault. It doesn’t even crack the top 20 when we factor in channeled attacks.
Backstab once upon a time was a problem but now almost every build comes out with 3k armor or so other built in survival mechanism making its damage meh particularly since it is single target lacking any ability to scale.
What is an issue is the ability to land a nice shot then disappear indefinitely 3s later.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
Ascended weapons/trinkets/etc (5% dmg); Bounding dodger trait (10% dmg); Sigil of night (10% dmg depending on period of play) on main hand weap; sigil of force (5% dmg) and/or blood lust stacks on the other.
That aught to do it. Oh and all those damage modifiers are additive by the way.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
I can be hit for basilisk and by the time my finger has moved to the button to break stun the thief has unloaded 8 skills on me and disappeared back in to stealth… and 10k backstabs aren’t hard to achieve, even against 3k armor targets.
Might stacking and full bloodlust stacks are easy to get (5 kills and you have your bloodlust…this isn’t pve).
That would be a mechanical issues on your side, perhaps you should remap your stunbreak to a key that you can reach faster when in need, any class can burst you down if you just stand there doing nothing. Sounds like you die to eviscerate warriors a lot.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
Ascended weapons/trinkets/etc (5% dmg); Bounding dodger trait (10% dmg); Sigil of night (10% dmg depending on period of play) on main hand weap; sigil of force (5% dmg) and/or blood lust stacks on the other.
That aught to do it. Oh and all those damage modifiers are additive by the way.
Yeah I suppose you could build a thief for that one skill alone, scholar runes, those sigils that you mentioned, food etc. etc. But you could build any class to be a one trick pony for that matter. Like that ranger that someone mentioned in another thread mauling people for 24k from stealth and running away when he missed because he can’t do anything else.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
Ascended weapons/trinkets/etc (5% dmg); Bounding dodger trait (10% dmg); Sigil of night (10% dmg depending on period of play) on main hand weap; sigil of force (5% dmg) and/or blood lust stacks on the other.
That aught to do it. Oh and all those damage modifiers are additive by the way.
Yeah I suppose you could build a thief for that one skill alone, scholar runes, those sigils that you mentioned, food etc. etc. But you could build any class to be a one trick pony for that matter. Like that ranger that someone mentioned in another thread mauling people for 24k from stealth and running away when he missed because he can’t do anything else.
I was just giving an example of how to reach 10K back stabs, and to be quite frank you can still reach that damage without going completely defenseless (switch bound to dash for example, which in addition to high mobility and evades, also gives 10% dmg reduction).
I was just giving an example of how to reach 10K back stabs, and to be quite frank you can still reach that damage without going completely defenseless (switch bound to dash for example, which in addition to high mobility and evades, also gives 10% dmg reduction).
Backstab generally requires skill to pull off consistently. Misses, blocks, etc are punishing. Attackers have to line up the shot and typically burn skills to prime the attack. Against well matched opponents landing a Backstab is a tricky proposition. So much so that Shadow Shot is typically how a thief softens a target.
What does need a nerf is the base auto attack damage of daggers which was recently buffed and Stealth Stacking needs to end.
Yea, I have to agree it’s a bit harder to get good backstabs off with consistency.
But I’m not very good with thief at all, so if OP is indeed doing a great job at them, I’d just want to learn.
I was just giving an example of how to reach 10K back stabs, and to be quite frank you can still reach that damage without going completely defenseless (switch bound to dash for example, which in addition to high mobility and evades, also gives 10% dmg reduction).
Backstab generally requires skill to pull off consistently. Misses, blocks, etc are punishing. Attackers have to line up the shot and typically burn skills to prime the attack. Against well matched opponents landing a Backstab is a tricky proposition. So much so that Shadow Shot is typically how a thief softens a target.
What does need a nerf is the base auto attack damage of daggers which was recently buffed and Stealth Stacking needs to end.
Dagger auto attack is fine. If a thief is auto attacking someone for full AA rotations, either their target is a large bovine-potato, or the thief is currently being demolished by pretty much all other professions advantageous pressure/passive defense combined.
Stealth stacking is absolutely fine, and you pretty much request it gone on every post I see you make. There is nothing more wrong with a thief stealth stacking than there is with any other profession cycling blocks, immunities, protection, etc…
If you’re solely talking about ghost thieves (which I know you aren’t, you just seem to not have learned how to keep your calm with stealthed power-opponents, or choose not to learn), then perhaps something can be done to cause revealed cough small damage addition to traps cough.
Me stacking stealth after attempting a backstab (which is often thwarted by the enemy simply standing there laughing, due to passive defenses), is akin to a warrior GS burtsting, then hitting endure pain, then blocking with a shield, then blocking with a mace, rinse repeat.
I haven’t seen a single applicable argument from you against stealth stacking other than “I don’t like this core mechanic, that this profession is built around and has entire traitlines dedicated to it, therefore it should be removed.” I’m genuinely curious what your gripe is with this.
From what I’ve seen , its usually thief players playing non-stealth stacking builds that cry the loudest about their own mechanic, due to failed 1v1’s with other thieves…
Dagger auto attack is fine. If a thief is auto attacking someone for full AA rotations, either their target is a large bovine-potato, or the thief is currently being demolished by pretty much all other professions advantageous pressure/passive defense combined.
The various builds centered around D/P stealth may not be able to kill everything but nothing short of a mistake can kill it. Even on the toughest builds all a thief has to do is wait until a target is wounded and it is dead.
The new AA DPS is Backstab levels of damage, uses no init, applies poison, trips on crit sigils faster and can be cycled about every 1.7s. Backstab->AA for two rotations->Go invis repeat. Hardly anyone even bothers with HS any longer. Sometimes a thief has to abort with evades or use Shadow Shot to soften a target up. This change lowered the skill floor for power main hand dagger builds considerably.
Stealth stacking is absolutely fine, and you pretty much request it gone on every post I see you make. There is nothing more wrong with a thief stealth stacking than there is with any other profession cycling blocks, immunities, protection, etc…
Stealth stacking is lazy, low skill floor play that breeds builds like Ghost Thief. D/P is easily the most OP roaming weapon set in the game.
Various DH and Chrono mechanics, Epi, Healing Signet, etc all fall into the nerf category at least for me. I also think Necro needs more in combat mobility, pretty much any weapon on a thief outside of D/P needs some luv, engis need more fluidity, etc. You can try and pigeonhole my suggestions for making the game better as general QQ but at least I come to the table with some suggestions rather than just tear down others ideas.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
You can try and pigeonhole my suggestions for making the game better as general QQ but at least I come to the table with some suggestions rather than just tear down others ideas.
That’s the thing, I don’t suggest anything regarding these two topics because nothing needs to be done about them. Ones personal inability to react to the anxiety caused by a constantly stealthing target does not make it bad design. In fact, its designed to do exactly that, cause chaos, break your “rotations” etc…
Stacking stealth for the lengths that people seem to be complaining about, especially regarding “waiting out cooldowns” does nothing but leave the thief with little to no initiative, and low endurance, both of which he would need to survive a re-engagement with any less-than-competent player.
Signet Thief. Old build, been around for a long time. The thief has to invest 100% of his utility to take down 1 target and is also very squishy. Completely useless in any other form of WvW.
There are other variations with strength runes which extend the duration of might etc. It’s just an example of how your getting hit so hard so fast, 250% crit damage on opening hit, massive damage bump from signet burn etc.
Ive actually been using a special build very recently and I see 11k backstabs and 15k heartseekers if certain conditions are met (ie i have 90% or more HP).
If something has 3k+ armor, thats a bit trickier to kill quickly as by the time I get them to 25% HP, they know how to dodge me and engage…not always successful but they do.
Ive actually been using a special build very recently and I see 11k backstabs and 15k heartseekers if certain conditions are met (ie i have 90% or more HP).
If something has 3k+ armor, thats a bit trickier to kill quickly as by the time I get them to 25% HP, they know how to dodge me and engage…not always successful but they do.
It’s really not hard to make a build like the one your talking about. Most players in WvW are PvE zerker builds, they are literally walking around in Paper Mache armor.
It’s literally like hitting a naked target and they come onto the forums crying all the time thief is OP.
If they say I am getting killed that fast with 3k+ armor, then your doing something wrong…
Only issue with thieves these days is their condition burst could really use a buff.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
I can be hit for basilisk and by the time my finger has moved to the button to break stun the thief has unloaded 8 skills on me and disappeared back in to stealth… and 10k backstabs aren’t hard to achieve, even against 3k armor targets.
Might stacking and full bloodlust stacks are easy to get (5 kills and you have your bloodlust…this isn’t pve).
That would be a mechanical issues on your side, perhaps you should remap your stunbreak to a key that you can reach faster when in need, any class can burst you down if you just stand there doing nothing. Sounds like you die to eviscerate warriors a lot.
Yes, the mechanical issue is he can unload 8 skills via a macro as there is no cooldown between skills or activation times in 0.05 seconds compared to an average human reaction time of around .25 seconds, not to mention server lag delay. I have way faster than average reaction times and it still takes me longer to react and press any button than it takes for the thief (who has the element of surprise) to cycle through.
I laugh at evis warriors.
The issues are a lack of any casting time for a lot of thief skills (lending them to macros or even just rolling across the keyboard) combined with huge mobility and stealth.
The issues could be easily addressed by adding a delay or a cast time to the skills, making any damage cancel stealth and making stealth have a movement speed penalty. Then thiefs might have to learn how to play skillfully rather than reset fights if they don’t immediately win.
Of course I could just play my guardian and /laugh at any thiefs.
(edited by Baldrick.8967)
Please describe me the 8 skills a thief can use in less than 0,25s (you can assume quickness if you want).
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
Just gonna drop this here.. Because I know this is a direct subliminal. Not all high burst Thieves are 11k hp btw, nor do they run signet anymore. I haven’t seen one in ages.
But here’s my recent video. 1 shot- Outnumbered/Roaming video. Since it pertains to this topic
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
My favourite part of that video was calling the mesmer ebola while she’s running an almost permanent stealth build. I know and I agree the mesmer build is very low risk high reward but so was Terri’s.
I quite liked Saku’s videos back when he played but seems he’s left the game too especially the video that mocked the broken stuff you could do with all the HoT creep. Think it’s thief dedication 3.
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
My favourite part of that video was calling the mesmer ebola while she’s running an almost permanent stealth build. I know and I agree the mesmer build is very low risk high reward but so was Terri’s.
I quite liked Saku’s videos back when he played but seems he’s left the game too especially the video that mocked the broken stuff you could do with all the HoT creep. Think it’s thief dedication 3.
Yeah, the whole dodging is a finisher for stealth, plus hits for 4k. Seems a bit much. Don’t think warriors “damage at the end of your dodge” trait does 1k
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
My favourite part of that video was calling the mesmer ebola while she’s running an almost permanent stealth build. I know and I agree the mesmer build is very low risk high reward but so was Terri’s.
I quite liked Saku’s videos back when he played but seems he’s left the game too especially the video that mocked the broken stuff you could do with all the HoT creep. Think it’s thief dedication 3.
Yeah, the whole dodging is a finisher for stealth, plus hits for 4k. Seems a bit much. Don’t think warriors “damage at the end of your dodge” trait does 1k
I think it actually does more just no-one picks strength unless being a hipster core war. So much abusable stuff with HoT, makes me wish ANet would remove elite specs as the April fools joke this year, can see everyone crying when they don’t get carried by the insane creep.
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
Wow, that’s some pro commentary there. Good find.
Another over blown Post, the funny thing is the conditions needing to be met to land 10k+ damage, its not like other classes can’t do similar if not more damage on low CD skills….
First things first Stealth Attacks are not Auto Attacks.
Stealth Attacks either need Initiative expended or long CDs used to gain access to.
Backstab
Requires stealth- to get stealth Thief has to
A. Land a Cloak and Dagger 6 initiative.
B. Use Black Powder 6 initiative, then leap through with either Heartseeker 3 initiative (9 total now used) or expend a Dodge through Heartseeker, effective removing or of the Thieves defenses.
C. Use a relatively long CD Blinding Powder or Shadow Refuge skill to gain Stealth without a combo finisher.
And
D. Trait a highly underwhelming purely defensive traitline Shadow Arts to gain stealth on Steal.
Then on top of that they would have to position behind the opponent and then land the Backstab, and if it misses (which can be a high probability with all the Blocks, Blinds, Invulns, Psuedo Invulns.) it placed Backstab on CD, and if the Backstab is negated close to Stealth Ending then AA is on CD.
9k with 4 skills chained together and back stab didn’t crit, would have been over 9000!! Lol had to.
Very well played thief, should check out her videos. Learn a thing or two.
Wow, that’s some pro commentary there. Good find.
Yishis’s stuff was awesome back in the day too.
Don’t think warriors “damage at the end of your dodge” trait does 1k
The warrior trait fits more like 2-4k (+/- 1k depending on circumstances, and it’s aoe. You have to dodge into an opponent, and you have to already be in combat, for it to work though.
Most warriors don’t take it these days because the Strength line is typically dumped for the Berserker line.
All these people whining and crying about low-risk on thief have obviously never played one.
If a thief resets a fight, you are also reset, they did not win, you did not lose. This argument is null.
Constantly stealthing and re-appearing, or even stealth stacking is a result of extremely active playing. They didn’t just press f3 for a uninterruptable, incredibly long team block. They didn’t just hit a utility for non-removable immunity to direct damage, nor did they use a heal that heals them for 100% of the damage they received – or force their opponent to stop attacking while retaining their full offensive power.
The list goes on, enjoy your incredibly passive gameplay, while arguing that the profession that requires the most active gameplay is too much for you to handle…
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)
I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?
“Only point I’ll bother arguing” – chooses the most ridiculously L2P one to complain about. The counter-play being "k lets walk in the other direction and make the thief spend CD’s, initiative, and/or endurance to catch up, while my Signet of Stone (passive, lazy, low-risk ability – see above), leisurely counts down on the cooldown.
For someone who has the most hours of any of their professions as Thief, you sure don’t know how they work very well, do you “broseiden, god of the brocean”
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)
I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?
If I remember correctly it was sometime early last year, you don’t see them hit that high anymore, they even used to go 20k+
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)
I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?
If I remember correctly it was sometime early last year, you don’t see them hit that high anymore, they even used to go 20k+
High Numbers can still be achieved. Don’t be fooled.— Check out my recent video.
Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?
10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)
I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?
If I remember correctly it was sometime early last year, you don’t see them hit that high anymore, they even used to go 20k+
High Numbers can still be achieved. Don’t be fooled.— Check out my recent video.
Yes, but not like they once were, even though it can still reach pretty high like in your vids.
Arenanet will never ever nerf thief. Karl McLain won’t allow it.
Me stacking stealth after attempting a backstab (which is often thwarted by the enemy simply standing there laughing, due to passive defenses), is akin to a warrior GS burtsting, then hitting endure pain, then blocking with a shield, then blocking with a mace, rinse repeat.
No, it actually isn’t akin that at all. Once endure pain ends, you can still attack the warrior with unblockable attacks. You can’t hit someone that is in stealth unless you just get lucky.
Me stacking stealth after attempting a backstab (which is often thwarted by the enemy simply standing there laughing, due to passive defenses), is akin to a warrior GS burtsting, then hitting endure pain, then blocking with a shield, then blocking with a mace, rinse repeat.
No, it actually isn’t akin that at all. Once endure pain ends, you can still attack the warrior with unblockable attacks. You can’t hit someone that is in stealth unless you just get lucky.
Unblockable attacks? As in …multiple?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance
I think this is significant enough to counter thieves one unblockable 30s cooldown, with a long activation time, which is nullified by a single dodge or even an /obstruction/.
Lol what? You go from comparing stealth to invulns and blocks to turning around and only looking at thief skills when talking about unblockables? This isn’t how you compare the defensive abilities of both classes, you can only do that by looking at the counters to them.
Blocks have counters via unblockable attacks. Stealth has “counters” via just guessing where the other character is. There are only 2 out of 9 classes with AoE reveal skills (DH trap doesn’t count, since it relies on the thief walking through the trap). The only way to fight someone that has stealthed up is to guess where they are. That is not a counter to stealth.
But blocks can be countered. Stealth and blocks are not comparable.
I used the word “akin” because you are right, you can’t directly compare stealth to any other sort of defense. And guess what, you’re not supposed to, the mechanics are nowhere near related. However, people keep trying to compare stealth to other game mechanics/abilities, both offensive and defensive, so its only natural to cater to those people and attempt to make vague comparisons to non-comparable skills in a devil’s advocate style.
How about this: You say blocks have counters via unblockable attacks. OK, not everyone has unblockable attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle.
Stealth has counters via reveals. Not everyone has reveal attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle. DH trap absolutely counts, as relying on a thief walking through the trap means….drumroll …stand on your trap – thief not wanting to walk into the trap? OK cool, now your cooldowns are ticking back.
Stealth stacking- when talking about thieves specifically – counters itself by consuming utility cooldowns, endurance, and/or initiative. Think of your preferred non-thief profession – lets say you go into stealth, now you want to attack, but you now only have 1 bar of endurance, 3 skills and a utility on cooldown. Is this an optimal way to engage your target?
Again, as stated above, this is a vague comparison, because you cannot make a direct comparison, but it gets the job done and outlines the risk that people think has magically disappeared.
I used the word “akin” because you are right, you can’t directly compare stealth to any other sort of defense. And guess what, you’re not supposed to, the mechanics are nowhere near related. However, people keep trying to compare stealth to other game mechanics/abilities, both offensive and defensive, so its only natural to cater to those people and attempt to make vague comparisons to non-comparable skills in a devil’s advocate style.
How about this: You say blocks have counters via unblockable attacks. OK, not everyone has unblockable attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle.
Stealth has counters via reveals. Not everyone has reveal attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle. DH trap absolutely counts, as relying on a thief walking through the trap means….drumroll …stand on your trap – thief not wanting to walk into the trap? OK cool, now your cooldowns are ticking back.
Stealth stacking- when talking about thieves specifically – counters itself by consuming utility cooldowns, endurance, and/or initiative. Think of your preferred non-thief profession – lets say you go into stealth, now you want to attack, but you now only have 1 bar of endurance, 3 skills and a utility on cooldown. Is this an optimal way to engage your target?
Again, as stated above, this is a vague comparison, because you cannot make a direct comparison, but it gets the job done and outlines the risk that people think has magically disappeared.
Every single class has access to unblockable weapon attacks, as well as 4 classes have traits that make attacks unblockable. Even if you want to count DH trap (though really? So now the “counter” to a ghost thief is to stand completely still? What next?), that’s still only 3 classes out of 9 that have access to AoE reveal. 3 out of 9.
I used the word “akin” because you are right, you can’t directly compare stealth to any other sort of defense. And guess what, you’re not supposed to, the mechanics are nowhere near related. However, people keep trying to compare stealth to other game mechanics/abilities, both offensive and defensive, so its only natural to cater to those people and attempt to make vague comparisons to non-comparable skills in a devil’s advocate style.
How about this: You say blocks have counters via unblockable attacks. OK, not everyone has unblockable attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle.
Stealth has counters via reveals. Not everyone has reveal attacks/abilities. And those that do may not have them slotted or traited as its not optimal for their build/playstyle. DH trap absolutely counts, as relying on a thief walking through the trap means….drumroll …stand on your trap – thief not wanting to walk into the trap? OK cool, now your cooldowns are ticking back.
Stealth stacking- when talking about thieves specifically – counters itself by consuming utility cooldowns, endurance, and/or initiative. Think of your preferred non-thief profession – lets say you go into stealth, now you want to attack, but you now only have 1 bar of endurance, 3 skills and a utility on cooldown. Is this an optimal way to engage your target?
Again, as stated above, this is a vague comparison, because you cannot make a direct comparison, but it gets the job done and outlines the risk that people think has magically disappeared.
Every single class has access to unblockable weapon attacks, as well as 4 classes have traits that make attacks unblockable. Even if you want to count DH trap (though really? So now the “counter” to a ghost thief is to stand completely still? What next?), that’s still only 3 classes out of 9 that have access to AoE reveal. 3 out of 9.
And only 4 out of 9 classes have pure Invulnerable, 2 of which can still use all skills while Invulnerable. No hard counters.
Or 2 classes have pseudo Invulnerable that allow them to use all skills. While taking no physical damage. No Hard counter unless running a Condi build.
Or 1 class has a Pseudo Invulnerable that allows them to take no damage, or it heals them, only Counter is to stop doing anything.
While stealth has hardcounters on multiple classes only 3 can innately do it while the Thief is already Stealthed the other 2 have to choose when to preemptively use it, then there is an item that can be used by any and all classes to reveal Stealthed players.
So 5 out of 9 classes have access to reveals 3 out of those 5 can do it in an AoE while the Thief is Stealthed.
And you know something DHs normally just stand in one spot because of traps lulz you act as if they don’t do that already between traps and Purging flames, majority of DH players will stand near or in their traps in a fight, just saying.
The balance in this game is a complete joke especially in WvW, it was proven this last patch when they buffed one of the few Specs that shouldn’t even exist in game, there are a multitude of ways to remove the build/playstyle but nope it gets buffed, if that doesn’t tell you anything then idk what to tell you.
Every single class has access to unblockable weapon attacks, as well as 4 classes have traits that make attacks unblockable. Even if you want to count DH trap (though really? So now the “counter” to a ghost thief is to stand completely still? What next?), that’s still only 3 classes out of 9 that have access to AoE reveal. 3 out of 9.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable#Weapon_skills_that_are_unblockable
How many of these are used? Be serious, how many of these skills do you see used in the combat scale that this thread is referring to? Since you like to not count valid options, then shadow shot does not count, since the only unblockable portion is the blind, and Larcenous Strike does not count, since in order to get to that attack, the first portion needs to hit, which IS blockable.
I was never speaking out about ghost thief, so please don’t base your argument against my argument with that as a focal point. To refresh, I’m arguing about stealth stacking as a power thief, as context clues may point out.
@Turk – You keep deflecting, you and @BlaqueFyre both. Whether or not the skills are in meta builds is a moot point, because every class does have access to unblockable skills if they want to counter blocks. However, only 3 out of 9 classes have access to an AoE reveal skill. So only 3 out of 9 classes have any options period at forcing anyone out of stealth. Blocks and stealth are just not comparable. Blocks are something that every class has a counter to. Stealth is not, only 1/3 of the classes have a counter to it, and all 3 of those counters require owning HoT.
@BlaqueFyre – And the deflecting is absolutely ridiculous coming from you. I didn’t say that invuln was balanced. And try as hard as you want, but there are only 3 classes that can force a player out of stealth, all other skills that apply revealed require a target to use, which means they are useless once the thief is already in stealth. So only 3 classes can counter stealth.
Revenant , Engineer and Dragonhunter all have reveals which can counter a Thief already stealthed.
Warrior and Ranger have access to taunt . A warrior on entering berserk mode as example and traited bloody roar will taunt all nearby enemies. This will force a reveal on stealthed thief which can be followed up with on my mark.
Beastly warden is also a non targeted AOE taunt from ranger. This will pull people from stealth if they in area.
There 9 professions. 5 can counter stealth. Those (of that group of 5 ) that do not want to bother feel it not that big a deal so do not trait for it as they find other traits superior in their builds.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
@OP
Rapid Fire has a lower effective cooldown than backstab when factoring in initiative regeneration. Add it regularly hits harder coming from tankier builds with better mobility, and it doesn’t get negated entirely on a passive aegis proc.
Also, Maul can be built to easily deal 50%+ more damage than backstab, particularly at those numbers.
Cheers.
Unblockable attacks? As in …multiple?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_StanceI think this is significant enough to counter thieves one unblockable 30s cooldown, with a long activation time, which is nullified by a single dodge or even an /obstruction/.
Well, I guess your first problem is you think you need to use unblockable attacks against stability. You don’t…. #KnowledgeIsDope
@OP
Rapid Fire has a lower effective cooldown than backstab when factoring in initiative regeneration. Add it regularly hits harder coming from tankier builds with better mobility, and it doesn’t get negated entirely on a passive aegis proc.Also, Maul can be built to easily deal 50%+ more damage than backstab, particularly at those numbers.
Cheers.
Ty, but that has nothing to do with the overall topic.
All these people whining and crying about low-risk on thief have obviously never played one.
If a thief resets a fight, you are also reset, they did not win, you did not lose. This argument is null.
I have 5k hours in WvW with most of that on a thief in pretty much every decent build (and some not so decent ones). I can say without a doubt D/P as a roaming weapon set is outright OP and has been since launch. Perma-stealth, can vanish without needing a target 3s after a big opening shot, Shadow Shots crazy goodness, one of the best AA DPS rotations (why Anet?) and Head Shot/Heartseeker all being strong attacks the weapon set is ridiculously powerful in solo roaming with nothing wasted or weak. A thief only loses on that weapon set if they overplay their hand. Couple it with staff/bound and its OP-ness is obvious to everyone particularly those that run it.
The only offsetting factor IMO is that the thief pretty much sucks at everything else.
Oh and if anyone is wondering what the build is…
(edited by Straegen.2938)
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