Guild Wars 2

DemonSeed.3528:

AikijinX.6258:

DemonSeed.3528:

sephiroth.4217:

Absurd.2947:

Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?

10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)

I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?

If I remember correctly it was sometime early last year, you don’t see them hit that high anymore, they even used to go 20k+

High Numbers can still be achieved. Don’t be fooled.— Check out my recent video.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/AikijinX-Roaming-Outnumbered-Video/first#post6523813

Yes, but not like they once were, even though it can still reach pretty high like in your vids.

Yes those were the glory days. When Mug Trait was the thing that downed foes, not our backstab. The backstab was complimentary. Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get. And at that point new sigils would be available, since they are introducing them in PvP first.

AikijinX.6258:

Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get.

?
Legendary armor will have the same stats as ascended.

The only real problem I’m seeing with thieves as of late is that they have builds rely on dealing tons of conditions in little time while maintaining stealth. And when someone comes along with a revealing skill or reveal traps, they can still run away or avoid the traps quite easily.

But putting direct damage in everything would ruin stealth altogether, making it useless. So we can’t have that. But this can’t keep going on like this.

So what can tone down this build to a reasonable degree while not destroying stealth use altogether? We need a way to make them revealed when they spam too much of something, while not revealing them when they use just a bit.

And that way to do that is changing Revealed to work with another secondary effect. Something like this:

• The secondary effect could be called something like “Suspicion”.
  • The icon could be the gray crosshair from revealed but without the eye.
  • This effect would stack to 25 stacks.
  • Each stack would last 4 seconds in PvE and 5 seconds in WvW and PvP.
  • When 25 stacks are reached, all stacks of Suspicion and all Stealth effects are removed, and Revealed is applied for the standard 4s or 3s depending on the game mode.
  • Revealed Training will NOT work with Suspicion, only with Revealed as usual.
• Sneak Attacks and skills that currently forcefully cause revealed would deal Revealed directly as per usual.
• Direct damage would deal 20 stacks of Suspicion on critical hits, and 10 stacks on normal hits.
  • This change will give a little leeway to allies and when fighting with projectiles. A single hit after getting stealth won’t reveal you, so if you are attacking with projectiles and you get stealth between firing a projectile and the projectile hitting, or if an ally gives you stealth right before an attack, you will be less likely to lose stealth instantly before you can react.
• Causing a condition would cause 1 stack of Suspicion.
  • And here’s the solution of this particular problem. This problem build deals way over 25 conditions in less than 3 seconds without triggering revealed. Too many within too little time. With Suspicion introduced, they would still stay safe if they never reach 25 stacks across all conditions within the duration of the accumulated stacks, with is too little to kill anyone with a modicum of survivability, and they will have to leave stealth eventually if they want to finish the enemy. And if it’s too much or too little, changes can be done for conditions to deal more or less Suspicion, and some non-damaging conditions could even deal none, allowing lots of leeway for adjustment.

Additionally, a I’d explore making a few changes and additions for core professions, for things that still let the thief watch out for enemies while still giving more tools to reveal. For example stuff like this could be tried:

• Two pet canine skills could be changed a little:
  • The hyena is now the one that applies AoE immobilize instead summoning another useless hyena.
  • The hound now causes an unblockable AoE revealed for 2s. Because you know, it’s a hound, with a little bit of training and nature magic they should be able to sniff someone cloaked even if it’s with magic.
• Engineer’s Lock On will have its recharge reduced to only 6 seconds when applied by Flame Jet.
  • This way engineers can go around revealing enemies with the flamethrower more often, but thieves can still watch out for the flame jets to avoid being revealed.
• Many core skill sets are ‘missing’ skills to complete a full ste of 1 heal, 4 utility, 1 elite. Some of these could give professions a bit of AoE revealed.
  • The Elite Warrior Shout could be “Cowards!”. Unblockable. Removes Swiftness. Knocks down for 3 seconds. reveals for 6 seconds, and cripples for 9 seconds anyone hit that is not facing the warrior, that is, anyone hit from the back or the sides.
  • The necromancer elite well could be Well of Ruin. It’ll take away ‘liveliness’ from enemies and giving it to allies. Each pulse deals damage, slow and revealed to enemies, whenever an enemy is hit, it also gives 2s Quickness and Alacrity to allies, and the necromancer gains 2% life force per enemy hit per pulse.

Xenesis.6389:

AikijinX.6258:

Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get.

?
Legendary armor will have the same stats as ascended.

Leg armor makes it free to change your gear to explore the best combinations for highest damage.

OriOri.8724:

Xenesis.6389:

AikijinX.6258:

Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get.

?
Legendary armor will have the same stats as ascended.

Leg armor makes it free to change your gear to explore the best combinations for highest damage.

I know, but there’s really only a couple sets of stats to explore for highest potential damage. Could just do that now and not wait another year, it’ll probably be much cheaper than getting legendary set anyways.

OriOri.8724:

@Turk – You keep deflecting

I’m not sure you fully understand what deflecting an argument is. The conversation moved to cover unblockables, I argued directly against your previous post regarding that, keeping on topic. You posting the above is a deflection in itself. Please try to stay on topic, or don’t bother quoting or directing your next argument at me.

AikijinX.6258:

DemonSeed.3528:

AikijinX.6258:

DemonSeed.3528:

sephiroth.4217:

Absurd.2947:

Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?

10k backstabs is pretty low…. Although I haven’t played much power thief lately but I clearly remember CnD hitting for 7k and backstab follow up is 17k+ on a Mes…. (I only fight light classes with my power thief lol)

I’m gonna have to play it again once my Modem is delivered, surely Thieves weren’t nerfed that hard?

If I remember correctly it was sometime early last year, you don’t see them hit that high anymore, they even used to go 20k+

High Numbers can still be achieved. Don’t be fooled.— Check out my recent video.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/AikijinX-Roaming-Outnumbered-Video/first#post6523813

Yes, but not like they once were, even though it can still reach pretty high like in your vids.

Yes those were the glory days. When Mug Trait was the thing that downed foes, not our backstab. The backstab was complimentary. Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get. And at that point new sigils would be available, since they are introducing them in PvP first.

Pulled off a 8000+ mug against a player last night. I am not sure what he was wearing and how many vuln stacks he had on but the base steal hit at 3600.

It makes me chuckle that someone will compare Rapid Fire and Maul, attacks with clear tells (the opponent is not invisible) and even longer cast times (rapid fire is a channel, subject to interrupt even).

After a rapid fire or maul, ranger autoattacks also hit for approximately 1/5th of the sustained DPS thief autoattacks do, and I don’t want to hear about pets because pets not only can’t hit moving targets, but most pets account for 2k DPS at best, which is not even close to the vast gap in autoattack DPS.

Hexalot.8194:

Absurd.2947:

Anyone that gets hit by basilisk and has no stun breaks, deserves to die. I have no idea how you’re pulling 10k backstabs off too, some funky signet build? Might stacking? Full bloodlust stacks?

Ascended weapons/trinkets/etc (5% dmg); Bounding dodger trait (10% dmg); Sigil of night (10% dmg depending on period of play) on main hand weap; sigil of force (5% dmg) and/or blood lust stacks on the other.

That aught to do it. Oh and all those damage modifiers are additive by the way.

The modifiers are multiplicative.

You can get more than even that. Executioner 20. Exposed weakness 10. Havoc 7. Bounding 10. Lead attacks 15. Night sigil 10. Seaweed salad 10. Force 5. Scholars 10 and a triggered assassins for another 15.

Thats better then double damage with a base attack.

This means the thief can put in more armor and vitality to his base and not end up hitting like a wet noodle.

Now if you bloodlust on top of that and might stack via p/p before a swap to d/p for that backstab , it going to hit hard.

babazhook.6805:

AikijinX.6258:

Yes those were the glory days. When Mug Trait was the thing that downed foes, not our backstab. The backstab was complimentary. Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get. And at that point new sigils would be available, since they are introducing them in PvP first.

Pulled off a 8000+ mug against a player last night. I am not sure what he was wearing and how many vuln stacks he had on but the base steal hit at 3600.

If you pull an 8k mug you’d be backstabbing for almost 50k.

Either that guy just wasn’t wearing armor and had vuln, and you had might, or it was’t Mug that did that much damage.

Way back when, Mug could crit, and it was totally obscene since the change from Crit Damage to Ferocity also caused an effective crit damage reduction of almost 15%. Given that most players that early on before it was changed to not be able to crit were in exotics/rares and mostly were in berserker gear, it wasn’t uncommon to have just one-shot any opposing thieves and eles. Combined with CnD and 14 might stacked from SA a Mug engage allowed for pretty consistent instant-kills without even using backstab. Which, mind you, since Revealed also didn’t exist, could be done entirely from stealth without leaving it with D/P + D/D swapped in.

Mug still hits hard (or for the most part can still hit hard, but nowhere near the ballpark of 8k outside of totally unrealistic scenarios.

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

Sigil of Impact + Force/Night can also bump this pretty easily during the CC of BV to well over 10k.

A proper signet build should be consistently stabbing between 18-25k when fully-optimized.

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

AikijinX.6258:

Yes those were the glory days. When Mug Trait was the thing that downed foes, not our backstab. The backstab was complimentary. Once Legendary Armor comes out, I’ll see what kind of numbers I get. And at that point new sigils would be available, since they are introducing them in PvP first.

Pulled off a 8000+ mug against a player last night. I am not sure what he was wearing and how many vuln stacks he had on but the base steal hit at 3600.

If you pull an 8k mug you’d be backstabbing for almost 50k.

Either that guy just wasn’t wearing armor and had vuln, and you had might, or it was’t Mug that did that much damage.

Way back when, Mug could crit, and it was totally obscene since the change from Crit Damage to Ferocity also caused an effective crit damage reduction of almost 15%. Given that most players that early on before it was changed to not be able to crit were in exotics/rares and mostly were in berserker gear, it wasn’t uncommon to have just one-shot any opposing thieves and eles. Combined with CnD and 14 might stacked from SA a Mug engage allowed for pretty consistent instant-kills without even using backstab. Which, mind you, since Revealed also didn’t exist, could be done entirely from stealth without leaving it with D/P + D/D swapped in.

Mug still hits hard (or for the most part can still hit hard, but nowhere near the ballpark of 8k outside of totally unrealistic scenarios.

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

Sigil of Impact + Force/Night can also bump this pretty easily during the CC of BV to well over 10k.

A proper signet build should be consistently stabbing between 18-25k when fully-optimized.

I stated the base steal did 3600. It also had an interrupt component so you add the +5k PI .

My build is not Zerker BTW. It has about 2400 armor with around 18k health and 200 percent crit. It has a wee bit of resilience. It P/P and d/p currently (albeit a lot can work off hand and i switch while maintaining P/P) It also has just under +3.1k power in WvW after the bloodlust stacks and before I start might stacking.

Engage at range with unload stacking might and doing damage. Steal to target for proc of PI if possible with interrupt , swap with sigil intell for 3 guaran teed crits and you can chain a lot of damage. Timed correctly Panic strike will usually kick in as well.

I like to use Impact strike in lieu of Basi though basi has its merits because if I am short Ini from the unloads that swap to offhand with an IS chain does some huge damage for an HS. Added to that the Basi venom cast is a little long for what I want to do. I want to generate as many interrupts as is possible from the point of the steal to the end of that rotation and basi cast at range prior to steal will often lose its interrupt component to SOH.

I have put Assassins back into the build as well and will use it more actively then I used to prior to such spikes. Where P/P might as a source bests the signet build Is I do not have to go the CS line for the signet trait so can maintain DA , DD and trickery. P/P is hard to do without the DD line.

You also do not have to give up all of those utility slots for a signet .

That said there much to be said for unblockable.

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die. Especially if you’re a squishy build that can’t cope with 10k damage.

I don’t see this being a problem at all – thieves die first in proper group battles, and if you nerf their one-on-one power they’ll become utterly useless as a class.

Svarty.8019:

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

It is, but it’s not really that much compared to what everyone puts out these days. Backstab is actually on the lower-end of what’s possible when it comes to burst.

15k Arc Divider from a Marauder Berserker isn’t uncommon. True Shot for 10k is easy to do. Tri-clone MR has been hitting for 20k+ since release. Rapid Fire for 20k isn’t unheard of. Maul ranger can spec to reach over 40k on Maul on the same cooldowns as Signet thief burst. Meteor Storm hits 7k per impact from many. Air Overload destroyes pretty much everything in under two seconds. Soul Spiral on reaper goes to 15-20k without issue. Electro-Whirl can get to 10k without problem. The list just keeps going on and on. WvW damage has always been historically very high and the pace much faster than sPvP. I prefer things this way since it makes fights more decisive and intense.

@Baba, an “8k mug” is not the same as as 3k Mug + 5k PI. The former is literally impossible to achieve, which is what I was getting at. I wasn’t sure what you meant by “3600 base steal” since steal baseline does no damage and didn’t know what to make of it. It’s equivalent to a mesmer stating that he dealt a 15k Tides of Time without mentioning the Power Block trait. A 3k Mug is normal given some modifiers and maybe a bit of might. The lack of critting only requires some power, which is best-achieved through more durable kits via food conversion. PI-interrupt thieves should actually be running Soldier’s P/P since it has the highest potential PI damage of all kits. 8k is why I said “It wasn’t Mug that did that much damage.”

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die. Especially if you’re a squishy build that can’t cope with 10k damage.

You are partially correct. Thief is designed around solo roaming but it is just a mediocre dueling class. Its primary fighting style is catching weak or injured players and cutting off zerglings. Its primary advantage is to escape or reset.

Problem is most non-thieves get mad when two thieves blow them up in a couple seconds, hit them when they are running to a zerg or just get frustrated when one won’t stay still long enough for their slow big damage build to beat it. I sympathize with those that gripe about limited counter play (or none at all against a Ghost). The others are just salty.

@Deceiver I should have simply put the word steal in place of mug and mug in place of steal thus getting 8K+ from a steal.

If you want to suggest that “no it not steal doing the damge it PI” then you would have to apply the same logic to your 25k backstabs when they enhanced with traits.

babazhook.6805:

@Deceiver I should have simply put the word steal in place of mug and mug in place of steal thus getting 8K+ from a steal.

If you want to suggest that “no it not steal doing the damge it PI” then you would have to apply the same logic to your 25k backstabs when they enhanced with traits.

Just was pointing out some inaccuracy somewhere, since the prior conversation was just about Mug itself. An 8k Mug is certainly impossible aside from extenuating circumstances, but dealing 8k damage from multiple effects tied to Steal, isn’t.

DeceiverX.8361:

Svarty.8019:

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

It is, but it’s not really that much compared to what everyone puts out these days. Backstab is actually on the lower-end of what’s possible when it comes to burst.

15k Arc Divider from a Marauder Berserker isn’t uncommon. True Shot for 10k is easy to do. Tri-clone MR has been hitting for 20k+ since release. Rapid Fire for 20k isn’t unheard of. Maul ranger can spec to reach over 40k on Maul on the same cooldowns as Signet thief burst. Meteor Storm hits 7k per impact from many. Air Overload destroyes pretty much everything in under two seconds. Soul Spiral on reaper goes to 15-20k without issue. Electro-Whirl can get to 10k without problem. The list just keeps going on and on. WvW damage has always been historically very high and the pace much faster than sPvP. I prefer things this way since it makes fights more decisive and intense.

@Baba, an “8k mug” is not the same as as 3k Mug + 5k PI. The former is literally impossible to achieve, which is what I was getting at. I wasn’t sure what you meant by “3600 base steal” since steal baseline does no damage and didn’t know what to make of it. It’s equivalent to a mesmer stating that he dealt a 15k Tides of Time without mentioning the Power Block trait. A 3k Mug is normal given some modifiers and maybe a bit of might. The lack of critting only requires some power, which is best-achieved through more durable kits via food conversion. PI-interrupt thieves should actually be running Soldier’s P/P since it has the highest potential PI damage of all kits. 8k is why I said “It wasn’t Mug that did that much damage.”

A lot of the builds you described are very much 1 shot builds that rely on landing that perfect one shot damage to kill someone but generally would die in any fight that lasted longer than their second chance at one shot. I don’t often see 15k arc divider from marauder warrior out of the blue as it only will do that if you’re under 50%, likewise I haven’t seen a 6k true shot in a long time let alone 10k. 20k MW on a 4 hit shatter is extremely rare and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve ever seen it done and many times either outright fails due to passive procs like prot/weakness, invuln, reflected CC.

I know the math supports that they are possible and I don’t doubt it just that such builds usually aren’t very viable without a lot of support or some kind of gimmick/get out of death free card. That’s without mentioning the set up required for some burst combos is like flashing a billboard saying burst inc, great one from your list is overload air where it’s easy to interrupt and it won’t kill you in 2s but will do heavy damage.

apharma.3741:

DeceiverX.8361:

Svarty.8019:

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

It is, but it’s not really that much compared to what everyone puts out these days. Backstab is actually on the lower-end of what’s possible when it comes to burst.

15k Arc Divider from a Marauder Berserker isn’t uncommon. True Shot for 10k is easy to do. Tri-clone MR has been hitting for 20k+ since release. Rapid Fire for 20k isn’t unheard of. Maul ranger can spec to reach over 40k on Maul on the same cooldowns as Signet thief burst. Meteor Storm hits 7k per impact from many. Air Overload destroyes pretty much everything in under two seconds. Soul Spiral on reaper goes to 15-20k without issue. Electro-Whirl can get to 10k without problem. The list just keeps going on and on. WvW damage has always been historically very high and the pace much faster than sPvP. I prefer things this way since it makes fights more decisive and intense.

@Baba, an “8k mug” is not the same as as 3k Mug + 5k PI. The former is literally impossible to achieve, which is what I was getting at. I wasn’t sure what you meant by “3600 base steal” since steal baseline does no damage and didn’t know what to make of it. It’s equivalent to a mesmer stating that he dealt a 15k Tides of Time without mentioning the Power Block trait. A 3k Mug is normal given some modifiers and maybe a bit of might. The lack of critting only requires some power, which is best-achieved through more durable kits via food conversion. PI-interrupt thieves should actually be running Soldier’s P/P since it has the highest potential PI damage of all kits. 8k is why I said “It wasn’t Mug that did that much damage.”

A lot of the builds you described are very much 1 shot builds that rely on landing that perfect one shot damage to kill someone but generally would die in any fight that lasted longer than their second chance at one shot. I don’t often see 15k arc divider from marauder warrior out of the blue as it only will do that if you’re under 50%, likewise I haven’t seen a 6k true shot in a long time let alone 10k. 20k MW on a 4 hit shatter is extremely rare and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve ever seen it done and many times either outright fails due to passive procs like prot/weakness, invuln, reflected CC.

I know the math supports that they are possible and I don’t doubt it just that such builds usually aren’t very viable without a lot of support or some kind of gimmick/get out of death free card. That’s without mentioning the set up required for some burst combos is like flashing a billboard saying burst inc, great one from your list is overload air where it’s easy to interrupt and it won’t kill you in 2s but will do heavy damage.

I think that’s the point you’re missing. A thief has no choice but to play such an offensive build because they have no real team support builds, where as all of them other class’s can build either way and still share some support

Fat Disgrace.4275:

apharma.3741:

DeceiverX.8361:

Svarty.8019:

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

It is, but it’s not really that much compared to what everyone puts out these days. Backstab is actually on the lower-end of what’s possible when it comes to burst.

15k Arc Divider from a Marauder Berserker isn’t uncommon. True Shot for 10k is easy to do. Tri-clone MR has been hitting for 20k+ since release. Rapid Fire for 20k isn’t unheard of. Maul ranger can spec to reach over 40k on Maul on the same cooldowns as Signet thief burst. Meteor Storm hits 7k per impact from many. Air Overload destroyes pretty much everything in under two seconds. Soul Spiral on reaper goes to 15-20k without issue. Electro-Whirl can get to 10k without problem. The list just keeps going on and on. WvW damage has always been historically very high and the pace much faster than sPvP. I prefer things this way since it makes fights more decisive and intense.

@Baba, an “8k mug” is not the same as as 3k Mug + 5k PI. The former is literally impossible to achieve, which is what I was getting at. I wasn’t sure what you meant by “3600 base steal” since steal baseline does no damage and didn’t know what to make of it. It’s equivalent to a mesmer stating that he dealt a 15k Tides of Time without mentioning the Power Block trait. A 3k Mug is normal given some modifiers and maybe a bit of might. The lack of critting only requires some power, which is best-achieved through more durable kits via food conversion. PI-interrupt thieves should actually be running Soldier’s P/P since it has the highest potential PI damage of all kits. 8k is why I said “It wasn’t Mug that did that much damage.”

A lot of the builds you described are very much 1 shot builds that rely on landing that perfect one shot damage to kill someone but generally would die in any fight that lasted longer than their second chance at one shot. I don’t often see 15k arc divider from marauder warrior out of the blue as it only will do that if you’re under 50%, likewise I haven’t seen a 6k true shot in a long time let alone 10k. 20k MW on a 4 hit shatter is extremely rare and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve ever seen it done and many times either outright fails due to passive procs like prot/weakness, invuln, reflected CC.

I know the math supports that they are possible and I don’t doubt it just that such builds usually aren’t very viable without a lot of support or some kind of gimmick/get out of death free card. That’s without mentioning the set up required for some burst combos is like flashing a billboard saying burst inc, great one from your list is overload air where it’s easy to interrupt and it won’t kill you in 2s but will do heavy damage.

I think that’s the point you’re missing. A thief has no choice but to play such an offensive build because they have no real team support builds, where as all of them other class’s can build either way and still share some support

He wasn’t making that point…

He clearly said the point he was making about how damage in WvW is much much higher than in PvP which while I do agree with it I haven’t seen damage numbers as high as he’s saying very often as these are mostly oneshots builds.

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die.

They don’t need to be good. Therein lies the problem.

msalakka.4653:

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die.

They don’t need to be good. Therein lies the problem.

Seems as though you’ve been best’ed by a Thief, Therein lies the problem with that post. If you believe playing a Thief is as easy as you make it out to be then I tip my hat off to you sir.

AikijinX.6258:

msalakka.4653:

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die.

They don’t need to be good. Therein lies the problem.

Seems as though you’ve been best’ed by a Thief, Therein lies the problem with that post. If you believe playing a Thief is as easy as you make it out to be then I tip my hat off to you sir.

^

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die. Especially if you’re a squishy build that can’t cope with 10k damage.

I don’t see this being a problem at all – thieves die first in proper group battles, and if you nerf their one-on-one power they’ll become utterly useless as a class.

No, it isn’t. All classes are designed to be 1v1 classes because all classes are designed for spvp, where 1v1 match ups matter.

Thief is just broken in WvW because it uses PvE stats with no crit damage caps and no penalty to stealth.

apharma.3741:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

apharma.3741:

DeceiverX.8361:

Svarty.8019:

DeceiverX.8361:

@10k backstabs being big, it’s really not. Spec HM and Bound and you already bring similar damage to what CS offers, which can pretty readily get over 10k on most builds.

… and yet in terms of health pools, 10k is an enormous chunk.

It is, but it’s not really that much compared to what everyone puts out these days. Backstab is actually on the lower-end of what’s possible when it comes to burst.

15k Arc Divider from a Marauder Berserker isn’t uncommon. True Shot for 10k is easy to do. Tri-clone MR has been hitting for 20k+ since release. Rapid Fire for 20k isn’t unheard of. Maul ranger can spec to reach over 40k on Maul on the same cooldowns as Signet thief burst. Meteor Storm hits 7k per impact from many. Air Overload destroyes pretty much everything in under two seconds. Soul Spiral on reaper goes to 15-20k without issue. Electro-Whirl can get to 10k without problem. The list just keeps going on and on. WvW damage has always been historically very high and the pace much faster than sPvP. I prefer things this way since it makes fights more decisive and intense.

@Baba, an “8k mug” is not the same as as 3k Mug + 5k PI. The former is literally impossible to achieve, which is what I was getting at. I wasn’t sure what you meant by “3600 base steal” since steal baseline does no damage and didn’t know what to make of it. It’s equivalent to a mesmer stating that he dealt a 15k Tides of Time without mentioning the Power Block trait. A 3k Mug is normal given some modifiers and maybe a bit of might. The lack of critting only requires some power, which is best-achieved through more durable kits via food conversion. PI-interrupt thieves should actually be running Soldier’s P/P since it has the highest potential PI damage of all kits. 8k is why I said “It wasn’t Mug that did that much damage.”

A lot of the builds you described are very much 1 shot builds that rely on landing that perfect one shot damage to kill someone but generally would die in any fight that lasted longer than their second chance at one shot. I don’t often see 15k arc divider from marauder warrior out of the blue as it only will do that if you’re under 50%, likewise I haven’t seen a 6k true shot in a long time let alone 10k. 20k MW on a 4 hit shatter is extremely rare and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve ever seen it done and many times either outright fails due to passive procs like prot/weakness, invuln, reflected CC.

I know the math supports that they are possible and I don’t doubt it just that such builds usually aren’t very viable without a lot of support or some kind of gimmick/get out of death free card. That’s without mentioning the set up required for some burst combos is like flashing a billboard saying burst inc, great one from your list is overload air where it’s easy to interrupt and it won’t kill you in 2s but will do heavy damage.

I think that’s the point you’re missing. A thief has no choice but to play such an offensive build because they have no real team support builds, where as all of them other class’s can build either way and still share some support

He wasn’t making that point…

He clearly said the point he was making about how damage in WvW is much much higher than in PvP which while I do agree with it I haven’t seen damage numbers as high as he’s saying very often as these are mostly oneshots builds.

I dunno, aside from the Maul ranger hitting 40k Mauls, I find these numbers pretty achievable quite outside of dedicated builds; I’ve to some extent built or played most of them. The point being is that generally speaking, every profession is very capable of large burst damage (>10k) with limited build investment, and crazy high values are not at all exclusive to the thief, which makes equal or even more substantial sacrifices to achieve.

Straegen.2938:

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die. Especially if you’re a squishy build that can’t cope with 10k damage.

You are partially correct. Thief is designed around solo roaming but it is just a mediocre dueling class. Its primary fighting style is catching weak or injured players and cutting off zerglings. Its primary advantage is to escape or reset.

Problem is most non-thieves get mad when two thieves blow them up in a couple seconds, hit them when they are running to a zerg or just get frustrated when one won’t stay still long enough for their slow big damage build to beat it. I sympathize with those that gripe about limited counter play (or none at all against a Ghost). The others are just salty.

Well that’s clearly not fitting your description of the design of the class.
If it’s designed to be solo, then it would be ineffective when working with another thief. It isn’t, therefore it doesn’t do what it’s designed to.

Not to mention that your description of thief only being good at hitting already injured targets – what a lot of twaddle! Thief downs full health tanks with just one reset.

Clearly, the Thief class either needs redesigning or nerfing.

Svarty.8019:

Straegen.2938:

glass.3245:

Thief is designed to be a solo roaming class – if you go one on one with a good thief in WvW you should expect to die. Especially if you’re a squishy build that can’t cope with 10k damage.

You are partially correct. Thief is designed around solo roaming but it is just a mediocre dueling class. Its primary fighting style is catching weak or injured players and cutting off zerglings. Its primary advantage is to escape or reset.

Problem is most non-thieves get mad when two thieves blow them up in a couple seconds, hit them when they are running to a zerg or just get frustrated when one won’t stay still long enough for their slow big damage build to beat it. I sympathize with those that gripe about limited counter play (or none at all against a Ghost). The others are just salty.

Well that’s clearly not fitting your description of the design of the class.
If it’s designed to be solo, then it would be ineffective when working with another thief. It isn’t, therefore it doesn’t do what it’s designed to.

Not to mention that your description of thief only being good at hitting already injured targets – what a lot of twaddle! Thief downs full health tanks with just one reset.

Clearly, the Thief class either needs redesigning or nerfing.

How long is a reset?

Threads like these always appear when a certain class/build becomes super popular, and is performing so well in whatever area, be it WvW this time. That people who up till recently could run around and have it easy with their class/build, are now struggling with the idea/feeling that they’re no longer top dog, and need to come up with a way to counter the problem. But instead, come to the forums and ask for changes/nerfs, because who actually likes to, “Try” in video games anymore, am I right?

Thief was always top dog in wvw and since HoT they have 3-4 top builds one more stupid than the others.

Problem is that most of those thief players still think it’s skill why the win.

gebrechen.5643:

Thief was always top dog in wvw and since HoT they have 3-4 top builds one more stupid than the others.

Problem is that most of those thief players still think it’s skill why the win.

Playing as a stealthless s/d thief in today’s meta, then yes they were better skilled then their enemy, d/p is meta for a reason though and vs any compitent person the thief will have to run like a coward 80% of the time. Acro staff/condi dd and ghost thief should nor be classed as legit builds but trolling builds, they are the builds that require very little skill to be effective in.

i think someone discover new profesions ,,,try mesmer or ther rest and you will say that those are overpowered,,, Welcome to thief where is mastery is stealth and evades and mobility but in the end how many kills you really done and can you play inside a zerg combat? probally not then is ok evry profesion have to be diferent by one aspect… .want to speak about ranger that have km of range fire and a pet that do more damage than medium players, or the bug that after a ranger die and wp the pet reaper and still atack for 10 sec enaf to kill a thief.