Ever going to address it? going to be broken forever?
No and yes, obviously.
Removing dire/trailblazer would fix about 75% of the issues with both classes (and others for that matter). The remaining 25% is certain HoT elite specs still being OP because dd took evades to extremes and chrono took clone spam to beyond ridiculous.
Anet has given zero indication they have any wish to fix either.
Everything is broken in WvW…
Full rework of conditions would be the correct thing to do as far as the condi builds go. Make condition damage effected by toughness, ferocity and crit chance. Drop condition duration completely. Then anyone running trailblazers will be about the same as a power build running Soldiers. Weak, then that will force the condi players to play something that is a lot less tanky if they want to deal damage.
I’ve been saying it for years, but it isn’t something Anet can do in 5 minutes and it mostly effects WvW primarily, so they don’t care.
And while at it, tone down damage from power builds?
… that will force the condi players to play something that is a lot less tanky if they want to deal damage.
And still people run kittened things like ranger or warrior in marauder gear, right?
Full rework of conditions would be the correct thing to do as far as the condi builds go. Make condition damage effected by toughness, ferocity and crit chance. Drop condition duration completely. Then anyone running trailblazers will be about the same as a power build running Soldiers. Weak, then that will force the condi players to play something that is a lot less tanky if they want to deal damage.
I’ve been saying it for years, but it isn’t something Anet can do in 5 minutes and it mostly effects WvW primarily, so they don’t care.
My power warrior has more Armor and vitality then any condition thief or mesmer and can dish out 10k in an arc divider or headbutt. He can also heal at over 1k per second while throwing up resistance via zerker stance or using the signet.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
This is not an argument, as your anecdote is worth as little as anyone else’s.
There’s a reason why the forums are rife with thief/mesmer threads and not druid/engineer/DH ones.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
This is not an argument, as your anecdote is worth as little as anyone else’s.
There’s a reason why the forums are rife with thief/mesmer threads and not druid/engineer/DH ones.
Please offer your evidence that thieves swarm in WvW. The same people starting the same thread every second day is hardly “evidence” of anything. All it suggests to me is those people do not like the fact that they thief can get away from them due to its superior mobility , which by the way is by design.
This is what MOBILITY does. Some class will be best at it. If you feel that makes them OP play one. I look forward to the day when some Commander in WvW insists everyone log off their DH, Guardian, Druid, Ele, Warrior, Necro and bring in a thief instead as "they can never be killed "
As to roaming specifically some classes are just better at it and always have been. I fail to see how one of the few places a given class can dominate is “bad for the game” or why classes that dominate inside of zerg fights need to do the same when romaing relative to every other profession.
Oh and anecodotaly , of late I have seen more GS mce/shield roaming warriors and about the only people that can catch THAT version if it runs is the thief.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
This is not an argument, as your anecdote is worth as little as anyone else’s.
There’s a reason why the forums are rife with thief/mesmer threads and not druid/engineer/DH ones.
Please offer your evidence that thieves swarm in WvW. The same people starting the same thread every second day is hardly “evidence” of anything. All it suggests to me is those people do not like the fact that they thief can get away from them due to its superior mobility , which by the way is by design.
This is what MOBILITY does. Some class will be best at it. If you feel that makes them OP play one. I look forward to the day when some Commander in WvW insists everyone log off their DH, Guardian, Druid, Ele, Warrior, Necro and bring in a thief instead as "they can never be killed "
Now you’re just twisting that person’s words and running away with it.
For roaming or low numbers thief cannot be punished as they can run away and reset. Once you get to a certain number of players though just the damage from them all attacking at once will kill someone who gets stuck for 2s. This is why map blobs are so effective as more people even if in minstrels will still do enlighten damage to kill a person in their way but that’s getting off the topic.
I see a lot of thieves running around and it is precisely for the reason that they can always run away. I’m a decent enough power mesmer that if they go in thinking I’m an easy kill I’ll smoke em faster than they can blink but the ones that are decent you will barely ever catch or kill. They can also follow you for when the situation is more favourable which is why people dislike thieves especially when you have 1-2 being kittens and wanting to follow and kill you.
Mobility or stealth should be an investment and a choice between mobility or stealth, not both, that’s what’s destroyed roaming in WvW since WvW was a thing.
“Thief can’t be killed”. . . . . . . riiiigggghhht. . . . . . .
To be fair, I agree, dealing with a fast stealth based power thief can be really irritating, but that’s the nature of the high risk/ high reward playstyle. Do it right, thief deals a massive burst and target goes down. Do it wrong, thief misses, catches a burst, gets condi loaded, get stunlocked, etc, thief dies. Point being, that’s the trade being a thief. High offensive capability paired with little defense beyond mobility and stealth. It’s not overpowered, it’s not really unfair, it’s the nature of the class.
(edited by JonnyForgotten.4276)
Mobility or stealth should be an investment and a choice between mobility or stealth, not both, that’s what’s destroyed roaming in WvW since WvW was a thing.
Could not have put it better myself. No build should have high access to both mobility and stealth. Just like no build should have high access to self sustain and raw damage. Together, while it might not be overpowered, its definitely broken and a poor design.
“Thief can’t be killed”. . . . . . . riiiigggghhht. . . . . . .
To be fair, I agree, dealing with a fast stealth based power thief can be really irritating, but that’s the nature of the high risk/ high reward playstyle. Do it right, thief deals a massive burst and target goes down. Do it wrong, thief misses, catches a burst, gets condi loaded, get stunlocked, etc, thief dies. Point being, that’s the trade being a thief. High offensive capability paired with little defense beyond mobility and stealth. It’s not overpowered, it’s not really unfair, it’s the nature of the class.
Sorry but immunity to all soft CC, 6-8 consecutive dodges and the ability to double teleport 1800 range away (not including shadowstep for another 1200) with one of the lowest cool down stunbreak+block in the game while also having enough stealth to ensure you won’t be seen for enough time that you cannot be tracked.
I mean sure it’s more risky than say wanderer druid but in terms of risk for reward its way more rewarding than risky.
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
This is not an argument, as your anecdote is worth as little as anyone else’s.
There’s a reason why the forums are rife with thief/mesmer threads and not druid/engineer/DH ones.
Please offer your evidence that thieves swarm in WvW. The same people starting the same thread every second day is hardly “evidence” of anything. All it suggests to me is those people do not like the fact that they thief can get away from them due to its superior mobility , which by the way is by design.
This is what MOBILITY does. Some class will be best at it. If you feel that makes them OP play one. I look forward to the day when some Commander in WvW insists everyone log off their DH, Guardian, Druid, Ele, Warrior, Necro and bring in a thief instead as "they can never be killed "
Now you’re just twisting that person’s words and running away with it.
For roaming or low numbers thief cannot be punished as they can run away and reset. Once you get to a certain number of players though just the damage from them all attacking at once will kill someone who gets stuck for 2s. This is why map blobs are so effective as more people even if in minstrels will still do enlighten damage to kill a person in their way but that’s getting off the topic.
I see a lot of thieves running around and it is precisely for the reason that they can always run away. I’m a decent enough power mesmer that if they go in thinking I’m an easy kill I’ll smoke em faster than they can blink but the ones that are decent you will barely ever catch or kill. They can also follow you for when the situation is more favourable which is why people dislike thieves especially when you have 1-2 being kittens and wanting to follow and kill you.
Mobility or stealth should be an investment and a choice between mobility or stealth, not both, that’s what’s destroyed roaming in WvW since WvW was a thing.
You can play a thief any time you wish. It not forced that you play the class you choose.
That they can reset a fight generally means that they HAVE to because they can not survive very long against what other classes bring to the table in said fight. They do not “reset” because they are winning.
So they can not be punished? Whats the big deal?
I was on my warrior flipping a camp when a dodge evade DB thief came in. I just ignored him. He could do nothing to me even with a “friendly camp”. I killed all the guards as he tried to damage me. Now and then he had to run because he had low health. I flipped the camp and moved on. He accomplished nothing. There is no imperative to “have to punish him”. Guess what? he could not “punish me” even with guards on his side.
So they follow you until a situation comes up more favorable? What would you have them do? Engage when they know they will lose? This just sound tactics. If I am a condition build and come up against a person that can throw resistance up at will, I am not going to stick in the fight if I can help it. What is the point? I am going to look for a more favorable fight. If 10 come against 30 do they engage or withdraw?
This is NOT 1v1 dueling. If you want that sort of fight go to the Sanctum. This is open world WvW and if a person is with greater mobility it outmatched he should not be FORCED to stay in the fight and die just because you want to punish him.
What you are asking for is changes to mechanics that force a thief to stay in combat even though Stealth and Mobility ARE their key defenses. That was how they were designed. They have the ability to break off an engagement when they are losing better then any other class when they are losing. That they do it as often as YOU claim shows just how fragile the class is.
You just want an easy kill.
“Thief can’t be killed”. . . . . . . riiiigggghhht. . . . . . .
To be fair, I agree, dealing with a fast stealth based power thief can be really irritating, but that’s the nature of the high risk/ high reward playstyle. Do it right, thief deals a massive burst and target goes down. Do it wrong, thief misses, catches a burst, gets condi loaded, get stunlocked, etc, thief dies. Point being, that’s the trade being a thief. High offensive capability paired with little defense beyond mobility and stealth. It’s not overpowered, it’s not really unfair, it’s the nature of the class.
Sorry but immunity to all soft CC, 6-8 consecutive dodges and the ability to double teleport 1800 range away (not including shadowstep for another 1200) with one of the lowest cool down stunbreak+block in the game while also having enough stealth to ensure you won’t be seen for enough time that you cannot be tracked.
I mean sure it’s more risky than say wanderer druid but in terms of risk for reward its way more rewarding than risky.
My warrior can be immune to all conditions, string together 3+ dodges in a row, follow this up with a shield block of three seconds and two endure pains (no damage taken) of 4 seconds each all while genning health at 1K per second . If all of those run down and he gets hit he then has 3200 armor and over 26k health . Now added to this if he wished he can use perma swiftness and movement skills to escape most any fight.
Added to this if he has rousing resilience he can heal for another 2.5k plus every time he breaks a stun and gain 1000 more toughness on top of that. he can fill his health back up pretty quickly without leaving a fight.
If he does not HAVE to flee fights in order to reset, it hardly suggests that if a thief can, the Thief the one that OP.
If he does encounter a thief and the thief uses stealth and mobility to get away what is the big deal? If the thief in fact a better player and kills said warrior then the thief was a better player.
The thief is a hit and run class by design and is given the tools to do so just as the warrior by design can stay in constant combat dishing out damage for long periods of times and has the tools to do so.
The thief that tries do fight like a warrior and “stay in combat” and that does not use its stealth and mobility is dead real quick. Their 1.5 second block on BD will not change that.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I dont think arguing your kittenedly broken Zerker can kill thieves validates anything in regards to balance. Zerkers are horribly broken, just like thief and condi chrono.
Acro thieves can have up to 9 dodges if hard to catch is traited plus a couple of energy sigils on their weapons. Gain vigor on a successful evade and vigor is 50% more efficient on them.
Anet’s balance revolves 99% around PvP, they do not care how classes perform in a microcosm in WvW. They have only recently started nerfing specifically for PvP which is interesting. Too late for the Scrapper, all those nerfs it ate early on if they were implemented today would be all PvP only nerfs.
In short Anet does not care about roaming, 2v2’s etc in WvW, feel free to roll up your zerker, condi chrono or thief for roaming.
“Thief can’t be killed”. . . . . . . riiiigggghhht. . . . . . .
To be fair, I agree, dealing with a fast stealth based power thief can be really irritating, but that’s the nature of the high risk/ high reward playstyle. Do it right, thief deals a massive burst and target goes down. Do it wrong, thief misses, catches a burst, gets condi loaded, get stunlocked, etc, thief dies. Point being, that’s the trade being a thief. High offensive capability paired with little defense beyond mobility and stealth. It’s not overpowered, it’s not really unfair, it’s the nature of the class.
Low risk, high reward, you mean. The ability to have 6 dodges, built in evasion to weapon skills you can use to evade opening burst to buy you time, and the mobility is what makes the thief class so popular.
Things go south as a necro because you screwed up your faceroll, you pay for that mistake with your life.
Shadowstep is just kittened.
50 sec cd that’s a DOUBLE stunbreak, a DOUBLE port, and clears a condition on the 2nd part is about as overloaded a utility skills get.
Then you have the absurdity that is a 6 second slow on a revenant from a steal or the even more ridiculous steal item on mesmers, on a low cd that not only does damage, but closes distance and dazes the target to trigger pulmonary impact, and the steal skill has no cast time whatsoever unlike warrior burst, mesmer clone shatter walk time, or any other class mechanic with a cast time or that takes time to build up the resource.
Dash also makes you completely immune to what a thief is supposed to be pinned down with, snares/CC, so you just dash a safe distance and BP>HS without much counterplay barring another thief or a mesmer with mantra of distraction.
The only thing that can kill a thief is a better thief or a mesmer that catches them by surprise.
It doesn’t help that staff auto does more DPS than a kittening GRAVEDIGGER from a reaper greatsword, and dagger auto is not far behind.
Buffing thief autos was so dumb. They should pay initiative to do damage, not spam their CC/evade initiative skills and auto you to death in between pulmonary impact procs.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
I spilled my coffee over “high risk” depending thieves. Do you know what high risk means? No, run a necro or ele.
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
If every thief switched to engi I would probably quit wvw ;-)
Babazhook, sorry but if you consider berserker anywhere near balanced you clearly have a warped sense of risk and reward, you even listed some of the reasons it isn’t which is even more hilarious.
One of the reasons roaming is dead and duels don’t really happen is because this risk and reward is gone from most meta builds.
Who knew, giving classes with high, quick spike damage, mobility, stealth, immunity frames and blocks (in case of warriors) on top of the best heals in the game (daredevil and warrior heals are stupid strong on top of their already large kitten nal of damage avoidance tools) would break them.
Defensive tools should never be designed so that they can allow you to go full offense because they make you immune to retaliation.
Thief resets and autoattack damage need the nerf bat and headshot and black powder need an initiative increase.
Steal should have a 1/2-1/3 cast time for how powerful it is, and quite honestly being able to use it without revealing you immediately is pretty dumb. Thief can guarantee a lot of atatcks by just stealthing and pulling the attack off from stealth port from either signet or steal, or in a pinch shadowshot as well.
Defy Pain needs to be deleted, and the damage on arc slice and headbutt reduced while the heal on adrenal health reduced as well. Headbutt could also use an increased cd.
Way too many short cd stuns on warrior which allow him to land a 100b which is basically GG on anything that is not full on toughness.
Whirlwind, high auto and might generation, paired with arc slice and 100b on cc targets is way too oppressive damage for how frequently the combo can be used and how high the warrior’s sustained damage is.
Meanwhile a power shatter mesmer lands a shatter and it better kill the target because mesmer autoattacks hit for 40% less than thief mainhand sword pre-buff and around 30% less than warrior greatsword auto. Some classes have no sustained damage whatsoever while others have amazing burst and sustained damage in one.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
It’s a good job thief is awesome in large scale fights as well.
Thieves can effectively reset every 50 seconds (Shadowstep). I think that’s okay since most of your skills should be off cooldown if he engages again.
If he swaps to SB: Great – no damage for 10 seconds. Just move in the opposite direction making him waste initiative to catch up again. DON’T chase him. It’s pointless.
Most people try to chase thieves dashing > shadowshotting > dashing > shadowshotting … Your’re doing it wrong! Make him chase you instead and keep cool! Thief is probably the most predictable class in the game.
In the past I’ve read suggestions to lower the cooldown of Shadowstep to 20 or 30 seconds. THAT would be broken.
edit: And get some toughness! Everyday I see these full zerk whiners in WvW who were instakilled by some random thief. Thief is meant to counter full zerk builds!
I’ve 2500 sPvP games on thief. I know the mechanics. But even I get wrecked by semi competent thieves when I run a full zerk build.
(edited by KrHome.1920)
@KrHome – Telling people to not chase thieves is all very well and fine, and its good advice. But how does that change the fact that currently thief is a bit broken in WvW? Huge mobility combined with stealth, combined with the ability to pull off large bursts, and then disengage practically at will if the fight isn’t going in their favor? How can you think that its ok for a single build to have all of that? PU mesmer is right up there too.
Its no different from ghost trapper thief. While yes its possible to fight against one and win, that doesn’t make it any less broken that that build can damage you without ever breaking stealth. Just because a build can be beat doesn’t mean that it isn’t a bad design.
“Thief can’t be killed”. . . . . . . riiiigggghhht. . . . . . .
To be fair, I agree, dealing with a fast stealth based power thief can be really irritating, but that’s the nature of the high risk/ high reward playstyle. Do it right, thief deals a massive burst and target goes down. Do it wrong, thief misses, catches a burst, gets condi loaded, get stunlocked, etc, thief dies. Point being, that’s the trade being a thief. High offensive capability paired with little defense beyond mobility and stealth. It’s not overpowered, it’s not really unfair, it’s the nature of the class.
LOL there is NO High Risk, Its all High Reward/Low Risk since only the truly terrible Thieves will ever die in a 1v1 while roaming. The ability to reset at will and stack stealth means they will always be able to choose when they have the advantage to attack. Admittedly there are some terrible thieves out there but equal skilled thief should never lose to equal skilled (any other class) while roaming.
When will people learn every class has things broken about them? Every last one of them, has brain dead concepts baked into them mainly due to HoT. Look at every class they have multiple things that carry them through Passive Defenses, Passive CCs, Passive Sustain, to ridiculous amounts of CC , the ridiculous amounts of Invulnerabilities and the ridiculous amount of Offensive and Defensive skills.
It’s funny when people try to claim one thing is OP when everything needs a huge nerf, every class can spec to be unkillable, or to do ridiculous amounts of burst it’s not just one or two classes it is literally every class, if you think otherwise you must not know much about the game or classes.
So until every class receives the Nerf hammer nothing should be touched balance wise since there is a pseudo balance currently.
Things that need to be toned down across the board:
And a few things to note to this thread, if a Thief or Mesmer disengages and resets a fight guess what that means you are no longer in combat as well and are effectively resetting as well… mind blown right?
Classes with Burst builds like Thief and Mesmer have to put a lot into the Burst either in blowing multiple CDs or through positioning for most of the Burst.
And it’s a laughable joke that players think Steal is OP let’s see here to make it worth while it takes 3 whole traitlines, and 5 traits to make it what it is, no other Class mechanic in game requires that kind of investment, he’ll most classes get multiple skills for their class mechanics, all of which have separate CDs and do a multitude of effects from damage to CC to healing to invulnerabilities you name it.
Again right now unless they nerf every class and strip all the broken aspects they should leave balance alone since every class has a counter, every class has weaknesses, every class has a role, every class is viable in WvW.
And last but not least these classes don’t have ridiculous healing Sustain or braindead passives carrying most of them, they rely on almost exclusive Active skill use for Sustain and mitigation so crying about stealth which doesn’t stop damage and can be revealed by a multitude of classes and skills either reactively or proactively, while other classes can run around invulnerable that can’t be removed… kinda hypocritical.
(edited by BlaqueFyre.5678)
Babazhook, sorry but if you consider berserker anywhere near balanced you clearly have a warped sense of risk and reward, you even listed some of the reasons it isn’t which is even more hilarious.
One of the reasons roaming is dead and duels don’t really happen is because this risk and reward is gone from most meta builds.
Roaming is not dead. any more than are those that roam are just thieves. I was on our home BL all of last night an encountered naught but roamers and small havoc group sof 4 or 5. One zerg hit all night.
I divided my time equally between my warrior who does not have stealth and one of my thieves who does not trait DD and relies on stealth over mobility. You do not need both , this contradicting your suggestion that the combination of “stealth and mobility ruined roaming”. (Thieves had that combination since day one)
The reason there might appear to be less roaming is not just because of the risk and reward. It because it easier to mash buttons when in a zerg and overrun another group. The higher the overall population the more tendency to Zerg.
Some people apparently equate risk/reward with a fight that takes 5 seconds. . Taking a little more time to win a fight and get around added defenses is a bit too much work. Is there a bit too much in the way of such? Most likely but it across all classes and includes not only that sustain but raw damage output.
Oh and I never stated Zerker was balanced. I pointed out that a warrior has a whole lot of stuff going for it when it comes to roaming , just as some of those other classes have yet people such as yourself who want to focus on the thief and their ability to leave a fight while advancing the notion that the lands “swarming with thieves” because of it.
Simple fact. In a game of movement and distance any class that can cover that distance in a shorter period of time will be able to disengage from a fight easier. It has been decided that the thief is one of the better classes at doing this.If there a class better at it, they will always be able to disengage more easily just as if there a class better at soaking up damage it will be better at staying in combat. This is the nature of class based systems. Deal with it.
A class designed on hit and run wherein it spikes damage and breaks off combat tends to be one that will do so when it has an advantage over an enemy and can take them unawares. This is why the thief favored in PVP for +1 and map mobility to decap far points. Deal with it.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Condi Chrono is a force, but thieves are hardly OP in WvW. Thieves are carrion feeders that basically kill disadvantaged players (hurt, poor roaming builds, lower skill, etc). In pretty much every other mode of WvW play they are outright horrible. Given equal skill a thief is almost always at a disadvantage for winning a fight. Their strongest “skill” is their ability to test the strength of an opponent then run if necessary.
If we are going to “fix” anything it should be DH and Guardians. They dominate pretty much every aspect of play and the skill floor to play one is ridiculously low. Pile them on top of each other and they are nigh unkillable without a numbers advantage. They are the most complete class with a ton of group overlap, can hit like a truck, best pull in the game, fast rotational defense and they have access to fence skills that no other class has.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
Lol Thief IS OP
When I go up to a 1v1 I have 99% confidence that I will win. And about 50% with 1v2’s.
First of all, condition damage does not work on this build, every time a thief evades an attack they shed a condition, and they are forever evading because they have full endurance regain if you die, or if you stun them, plus on every steal, one of the utility skills and on their heal.
They also have skill 3 on D/D with a full initiative regain utility skill.
Hit a shot or two off on them? Too bad they get 200 health every time they use 1 initiative. They use 4 initiative on skill 3 (800 health on activation).
Think that you can stun them to death? They have 4 stun breaks good luck.
Well it’s a good thing that you can’t pair that much survivability with damage right? Wrong.
When specked with condition damage, you will have at least 10, 20 second 6700 bleed stacks on you at all times, the only way to survive that much condition damage is if you have lots of condi clear LOTS
If you have none, good luck with those 50 stacks of bleeding bud.
Too bad thief is in a bad place right now so this will never get nerf’d
(edited by Kirochique.9186)
Lol so true. I run a very OP thief build. I have perma dodge with a 3 second cooldown on dodges every 20 seconds then I just keep dodging for another 20 seconds. I pump out 1k heals every time I evade an attack and can inflict 50 stacks of bleed damage in that 20s if not clensed lots of access to stun breaks. No hard couner short of running into a zerg, even then I can easily down at least 4-5 people before I get focused down.
Can be stailmated if you have lots of condi clense, but can’t be beaten.
If you are talking about a D/D build there most certainly are several very hard counters since Death Blossom is both vulnerable to interrupt, channeling skills and ground effects. In duels that build performs rather poorly. Maybe you found some secret sauce but I haven’t run into in either sPvP or WvW if you have.
Lol so true. I run a very OP thief build. I have perma dodge with a 3 second cooldown on dodges every 20 seconds then I just keep dodging for another 20 seconds. I pump out 1k heals every time I evade an attack and can inflict 50 stacks of bleed damage in that 20s if not clensed lots of access to stun breaks. No hard couner short of running into a zerg, even then I can easily down at least 4-5 people before I get focused down.
Can be stailmated if you have lots of condi clense, but can’t be beaten.If you are talking about a D/D build there most certainly are several very hard counters since Death Blossom is both vulnerable to interrupt, channeling skills and ground effects. In duels that build performs rather poorly. Maybe you found some secret sauce but I haven’t run into in either sPvP or WvW if you have.
Yeah I don’t see it much around either, I’ve only ever encountered 1 thief with a similar build. It’s fairly secret sauce. But I feel lm unmatched most of the time in PvP and always in WvW
Stealth and mobility should not have such great synergies. Being the fastest while being unseen is a free card to get out of every fight. And one of the both should be enough. It should really be a choice.
The one thing, everybody hates about thieves is, that they are never commited to any fight at all. Even if u catch a thieve and counter his mobility, there are traits that autocounter u again.
Unhindered Combatant is the worst here. Immobilizing is meant to prevent, that enemies can move or dodge (a pretty good counter to thieves on paper), but guess what? With this trait, thiefs dogderoll removes Immobilize. Thats such a bad gamedesign, i dont know what to say.
Its like a dragonhunter trait with “Your blocking abilities block unblockable attacks” or something like “using a skill while under the effect of confusion heals you for 1k (healing increases with more confusion stacks, of course ;-))”.
Not that other professions dont have such OP stuff, … but i cant really get the logic behind this one. If a thief gets catched, it should be really punishing, … but in our days that means nothing to him. Just dodge and get away!
(edited by JimmydT.7281)
It also makes any sort of soft CC spec like necromancer with all their access to chills but lack of access to stuns pointless, since the thief can just cleanse it off.
The only thing that can reliably kill a thief right now is another thief.
It’s funny because Anet said necromancer was the class that would win attrition wars and you couldn’t get away from once engaged, but neither are true. Necromancers are the worst attrition class, and the worst chasers due to all the means to make chill/cripple/immob useless.
And thieves are bar none not only the best escapists but the best chasers as well. THERE IS NO DISENGAGING A THIEF.
Revenants before getting murdered by nerfs were the thief counter with old UA and phase traversal along with stronger autos that could pressure the thief.
And then they nerfed the living hell out of Revenants under the excuse that a revenant should never be able to chase a thief.
Full rework of conditions would be the correct thing to do as far as the condi builds go. Make condition damage effected by toughness, ferocity and crit chance. Drop condition duration completely. Then anyone running trailblazers will be about the same as a power build running Soldiers. Weak, then that will force the condi players to play something that is a lot less tanky if they want to deal damage.
I’ve been saying it for years, but it isn’t something Anet can do in 5 minutes and it mostly effects WvW primarily, so they don’t care.
My power warrior has more Armor and vitality then any condition thief or mesmer and can dish out 10k in an arc divider or headbutt. He can also heal at over 1k per second while throwing up resistance via zerker stance or using the signet.
Right, and my condi warrior will outdamage your power warrior and has 3.6k armor and nearly 30k HP lol. Fair?
Yeah, we know warrior deserves a nerf, but what’s your point?
and the power warrior should beat you in 4 of 5 fights.
Also, roaming is definitely not dead. Theives are not OP, but they’re stupid to fight against because they almost always shortbow 5 into another freaking dimension every time they take damage after not dealing a lot. Fighting theives isn’t “hard” really, it is just annoying because they can stun break if they DO get stunned very easily, they can almost endlessly evade and block while dealing damage lol.. It is irritating to fight them, they can be easily beaten if they hard commit to fighting you.
Mesmers are a different story. Mesmer in general is stupid broken and has been for a very long time. The clone and stealth mechanic on mesmer alone makes them the most annoying thing in the game to fight against. You throw that cheesy condi build on one on top of it and now you have seen the most broken thing in the game. It is the one class that I absolutely hate fighting against because the mechanics of the class are not only confusing in fights (yes, intentional), you get blown up with damage for even trying to fight condi mesmers lol. It works well, but I found it to be negative fun to play and even less to fight against.
I think we can all agree that Thief is the easiest profession to kill if they stand in one spot and don’t press any buttons. =)
I respect the fact that most of thieves defenses require some sort of action on the player, even if I disagree with the sheer amount of mobility they have.
I took a tower the other day and ran into a warrior that was at about 10% health due to fall damage. I am, of course, on my power build. The guy took 0 damage, blocked & evaded for like 15 seconds while passively regenerating health then whispered me telling me how bad I was for taking 15~ seconds to down a 10% health warrior.
I almost broke the palm of my hand over my face.
~ Kovu
(edited by Kovu.7560)
I think we can all agree that Thief is the easiest profession to kill if they stand in one spot and don’t press any buttons. =)
I respect the fact that most of thieves defenses require some sort of action on the player, even if I disagree with the sheer amount of mobility they have.I took a tower the other day and ran into a warrior that was at about 10% health due to fall damage. I am, of course, on my power build. The guy took 0 damage, blocked & evaded for like 15 seconds while passively regenerating health then whispered me telling me how bad I was for taking 15~ seconds to down a 10% health warrior.
I almost broke the palm of my hand over my face.
~ Kovu
No, that honor goes to ele, who has the same health pool AND light armor, on top of the fight it has 4-6 less evades, and their defensive utilities have triple the cooldown of most thief utilities while doing less as well.
And less CC to boot.
Which is why all meta pvp ele builds have been BUNKER because if you so much as go marauders or berk you die in one mug+backstab hit or a 3 clone shatter or arc divider.
And while at it, tone down damage from power builds?
+1
Most of the thieves are power spec anyways and they can kill a revenant within the duration of basilisk and a knockdown.
Assuming they don’t headshot you to death because somebody at anet thought that making headshot spammable while shifting most of the damage to autoattacks and said interrupts doing 3k+ damage is anywhere close to balanced.
At least a mesmer you can catch and finish.
Thief just resets all day every day. It’s impossible for a thief to die if he doesn’t want to.
But somehow Phase Traversal and Ride the Lightning needed nerfs.
The entirety of WvW roaming is swarmed with thieves because the class can’t be punished for mistakes. Those teleports and 6+ dodges on top of stealth make sure of that.
Hyperbole does not an argument make. WvW is not “swarmed with thieves”. I see as many if not more warriors and rangers dragonhunters and mesmers. The most underepresented class is likely the Engineer. The rest are there with the numbers.
Totally true. I roam on my thief all the time, however, the most dreaded class to fight against is a really good warrior.
I have to say i encountered a really unique warrior the other day. I am very convinced he was running full Viper, because he could hit really hard but made it a ponit to deal condi damage through mace/shield and other stuns like headbutt.
Very very strong, I simply had to run because after slapped 50% of my health off me I was left with several conditions still to deal with.
Wow was he unstoppable.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.
None of those classes has anywhere near the ability to strike with impunity from stealth and retreat to stealth again on demand.
There is simply no fighting thieves on wvw.
Very very strong, I simply had to run because after slapped 50% of my health off me I was left with several conditions still to deal with.
Wow was he unstoppable.
I think that’s why a lot of people in this thread are irritated. Thieves can simply disengage if they meet their hard counter. The same is not true for other professions outside of warriors, mesmers and to a lesser extent engineers & rangers.
If necros get put in a tough situation, they’re SoL.
~ Kovu
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.
Druid requires a resource build up, which is also ruined by reveal as CA has a cooldown unlike black powder>hs. Druid’s only gap creator is either staff 3 or greatsword 3 (and they rarely run both), so you get a 800 leap with travel time that also doesn’t break stuns.
More importantly, druid has garbage damage compared to thief, the burst damage isn’t even comparable outside a rapid fire which is not only a channeled ability that’s easily dodged or interrupted or reflected, but forces them into a weapon with no mobility or good defenses (knockback shot is easy to dodge as ever with the indicator and cast time).
Revenant can’t disengage from fights at all, don’t know what fantasy you’re trying to concoct here. It is one of the worst classes for roaming because it has no tools whatsoever to run away short of having a mob nearby they can phase traversal to.
Mesmer is not even comparable to thief because all you need to do to a condi mesmer is kite the clones and him. Mesmer has no chasing potential. It’s got a 30 sec cf blink with shorter range than shadow step and that’s as far as they can chase. Staff and scepter clones cannot hit fleeing targets as they interrupt their animations to chase and shatters need melee proximity.
Thief and warriors are the only classes that have ridiculous burst on top of immense disengage and chase potential.
You can run away from mesmers, engineers, guardians, necromancers, and druids; you cannot run away from thieves or warriors because they’re the classes with the best mobility in the game on top of the best spike damage power builds
(edited by Zenith.7301)
It’s not that the classes are OP. It’s that the fight isn’t fun.
Thieves in particular are able to harass, then escape whenever they feel like it. It’s exciting when you get jumped by a thief, then are able to turn the tables and counterattack. It’s demoralizing when you realize that you can never catch them. You basically have to hope that they’re careless or bad and accidentally let you burst them 100-0 before they dodge/sb/shadowstep away.
Even if you correctly predict the direction they’re going while stealthed, they just move too fast for any class to catch. Even if you land a stun or immobilize, they can break it on a much shorter cooldown than your cc.
So at this point, you realize that you can’t win. The thief might not be able to win either, but if the fight starts going badly for them, they’ll run. If it goes badly for you, you’ll die.
Frustrated with the asymmetry of this (and with nothing else to do on an empty borderland), you quit and go play Overwatch.
Thief on demand damage and on demand engage and disengage are just stupid, they can have 1 not both.
Tell that to Warrior, Druid,Mesmer, and a lesser extent Revenant.
Druid requires a resource build up, which is also ruined by reveal as CA has a cooldown unlike black powder>hs. Druid’s only gap creator is either staff 3 or greatsword 3 (and they rarely run both), so you get a 800 leap with travel time that also doesn’t break stuns.
More importantly, druid has garbage damage compared to thief, the burst damage isn’t even comparable outside a rapid fire which is not only a channeled ability that’s easily dodged or interrupted or reflected, but forces them into a weapon with no mobility or good defenses (knockback shot is easy to dodge as ever with the indicator and cast time).
Revenant can’t disengage from fights at all, don’t know what fantasy you’re trying to concoct here. It is one of the worst classes for roaming because it has no tools whatsoever to run away short of having a mob nearby they can phase traversal to.
Mesmer is not even comparable to thief because all you need to do to a condi mesmer is kite the clones and him. Mesmer has no chasing potential. It’s got a 30 sec cf blink with shorter range than shadow step and that’s as far as they can chase. Staff and scepter clones cannot hit fleeing targets as they interrupt their animations to chase and shatters need melee proximity.
Thief and warriors are the only classes that have ridiculous burst on top of immense disengage and chase potential.
You can run away from mesmers, engineers, guardians, necromancers, and druids; you cannot run away from thieves or warriors because they’re the classes with the best mobility in the game on top of the best spike damage power builds
Hmm easily able to due high Burst with Druid you must not be playing it right, and Staff along with Stealth from CA allow for great mobility and Disengage, don’t know what world you are living in, and yes Rev can Disengage using Skills like Phase Traversal and so on if you can’t think of ways to use the classes tools to benefit in any situation isn’t my fault, ( the two classes I play in WvW are Rev and Thief) and again that’s why I said to a lesser extent Revenants since they require targets or using skills other than Phase Traversal to Disengage.
And I guess you have never seen a decent Chronomancer, depending on the skill and build they can Disengage extremely well as well as Provide decent damage between Mimic, Blink, Continuum Split, and Phase Retreat on top of Stealth. Again it just takes skill and Class knowledge to make use of these resources.
again not my problem if you don’t know how to utilize these classes to their potential and outside the box.
all of those classes allow for braindead gameplay as well, again every class is Op in this game currently and every last class needs to be nerfed hard.
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