So how is it fair for a thief to be able to stay in stealth and contest a point so it can’t be capped even though there’s 30 other people on it. Trust me we tried fiding him but when you’re in such an open area like that supply point was and he can just dance around the edge of the circle like a little noob fairy it’s next to impossible. It took us laying down 4 arrow carts and spamming the area to find him and even then he avoided them just enough to keep contesting it for a good while. We finally had to leave and hide a team over the hill to zerg him after he came back and got bold. Call it the intended purpose of the game, but capping in stealth in any other game has never been allowed, why can it be here? That skews favor on one class above all others imo and goes against the whole purpose of balancing. If they’re gonna continue to allow capping in stealth then they need to allow any class to cap by hiding behind something out of line of sight of the defending npc’s and just standing in the circle without making agro, cause that’s pretty much what it boils down to.
^ I agree with this statement. I made the same post in the SoR/IoJ/SoS thread before it was locked because of flaming!
30 people? Stack up spam AoE, use AoE pulls and Roots sooner or later he will have to get close to you or give his position away with a refuge/smoke ring.
I agree this should not be possible but for the time being you have to deal with it and there are ways of dealing with it.
Sigh, this thread again. You dont have to sit inside the circle with 30 people, if only 2 of you stay in it he has to reveal himself to hit you for restealth and you’ll know where he’ll have to be to hit you. You shouldn’t have 30 people sitting inside the circle
thief needs to be fixed…. its ruining the game
thread not needed, we all know stealth is broken and why it should not stop capping points. we all agree and we all have had the debates on many threads, please in future type in search thf find the thread and post on it so it keeps them ones alive and keeps all the debates and issues in one place so its allot mor easy for us to revisit posts issuses and add to them. and btw some are bugged and dont cap 90% of the time its a shocker but its not a thf lol if you dont spot a thf at all at any post and no1 takes dmg its bugged, you all need to step out of the point as to perma stealth you need allot of people around you to promote lag and ofc people close for dagger 5th, first you all leave the point to see if it is capping for diffrent server if so you leave 2 people in there best class 2x war to run around, it wil be easy then to spot the thf as with only 2 they can spot the effects of there utility stealths very easy, smack 1st abilty dmg and have stuns rdy, i 100% you will flush any thfs even + on numbers out in under a min as i have proved this tac in past.
stop relying on your numbers to get the job done. i know its a anoying bug for allot of people prob all but for myself i like to switch to my brain and not my zerg to sort something out even if its vs 1 person whos makeing the prob
(edited by Gamble.4580)
Thieves don’t need to be nerfed again they already put a no stealth cooldown which is longer than when they are in stealth 3 seconds of stealth for every 30 ~ 60 sec skill cd as for Shadow Refuge when Thieves use that just aoe the kitten thing… Stealth is the only thing that keeps thieves/rogues alive especially with most of em being glasscannons its how the class was built now learn how to deal with it.. As for the stealth contesting I say it is a viable strategy if you don’t like them on the enemy side then be prepared to be affected on your side either I’m sure some of you approve of this when its in your team…
^^ Second this thread as well …
Sitting in a camp, having 20 guildies ++ engaged, spamming AoE for 2 whole minutes should not be intended and moreover implemented. In sPvP stealth capping is not a case.
Why WvW should differ ??
Discuss …
TheBob:
You are wrong. Thief don’t need to touch enemys to stay stealthed.
By the way, to all of you, why didn’t you post your suggestions here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Blocking-camp-capture-while-stealth/first
just curious.
Sigh, this thread again. You dont have to sit inside the circle with 30 people, if only 2 of you stay in it he has to reveal himself to hit you for restealth and you’ll know where he’ll have to be to hit you. You shouldn’t have 30 people sitting inside the circle
Yes, this thread again. I assume it will keep appearing until it’s fixed so, I hope someone makes a new one every day.
And a thief does not need to hit anyone to remain in stealth indefinitely while preventing a cap. Bad, bad broken mechanic.
Simple freaking mechanics.
I’ve said it before and will say it again:
1) A thief has 1 way to maintain PERMA stealth, D/P. Using #5 skill to create combo field and heartseeker out to go into stealth.
Solution to 1): Spread out and wait for one of your people to get hit by the heartseeker or #5 pistol shot. Looking for the smoke ring works too.
2) A thief will use CnD to create somewhat of a Stealth loop. CnD => Stealth => Stealth runs out => CnD rinse repeat.
Solution to 2): Stack up and AoE OR spam tab OR use AoE pull skills OR limit the amount of people @ camp and thus limit the amount of targets to CnD on.
This is a game, not rocket science. Stealth is fine, thieves are fine. Culling should be fixed.
EDIT: I just read moirweyn’s signature after hitting send. lol. Damage should break stealth/DoTs should prevent stealth. You dear sir are absolutely clueless. You might aswell delete stealth and thieves while you’re at it. There are enough abilities that actually still hit thieves while stealthed (volley comes to mind). Players who don’t feel like trying to find an answer to stealth should stop playing this game or stop complaining. If I run into a proper player he could care less about me going into stealth because he/she will now what to do and more importantly know what to expect.
Stop being mad at a mechanic you most likely are too bad of a player for to understand or combat.
(edited by Same.4687)
Simple freaking mechanics.
I’ve said it before and will say it again:
1) A thief has 1 way to maintain PERMA stealth, D/P. Using #5 skill to create combo field and heartseeker out to go into stealth.
Solution to 1): Spread out and wait for one of your people to get hit by the heartseeker or #5 pistol shot. Looking for the smoke ring works too.
2) A thief will use CnD to create somewhat of a Stealth loop. CnD => Stealth => Stealth runs out => CnD rinse repeat.
Solution to 2): Stack up and AoE OR spam tab OR use AoE pull skills OR limit the amount of people @ camp and thus limit the amount of targets to CnD on.This is a game, not rocket science. Stealth is fine, thieves are fine. Culling should be fixed.
Its amusing that the fact your solution to 1 thief stealthing is having a GROUP of players all stack and spam AOE just with a slight possiblity of hitting him. So you think its perfectly fine that like 15 people need to be able to AOE a whole supply camp to find one thief…
Doesn’t need to be a group. Just easier that way. I have done with just 2 people multiple times yesterday. It just requires a set of eyes, a tab button and reaction time…
Same:
forget it, there is no use in trying to explain. Most of the people here look for the easy solution – thief nerf. I as a thief still find myself smiling in front of the screen, thinking to myself “and here we have another clueless group, thank you very much”.
I just hope ANet doesn’t fall for the cries of mediocre players who lack experience or simply don’t want to put effort into knowing what makes a class work.
Heart of the Mists, mess around with a thief and you will realize it’s all so easy to take care of. I mourn for the gaming industry where people complain that games are becoming to easy and all the while cry the moment they cannot faceroll their way through a game.
Actually, I don’t care for the points being contested while in stealth. What I care for is dying because of the unstealth-bug. I thought this would have been fixed by now.
And this is not an issue of l2p, I know how to counter it. It’s simply said just luck to “tab” the thief right from the start because you simply don’t see him.
The thief doesn’t need a nerf, the rendering needs a fix.
So funny you guys consider culling issues signicifantly aiding your class as normal and you think you have elite skills for abusing a mechanic and treat everyone else as being a bad player. Anyone can perma stealth with a thief, just the fact you justify the class by saying 5-10 people working togheter can handle your thief makes me realise how useless this discussion is.
I mourn for the fact the gaming industry has to many people that act elite on an internet game and consider abusing server issues makes them good at the game.
Krosan: Do you read? I’m seriously asking this question because it feels like you don’t. Ofcourse culling needs to be fixed it is a major issue that right now benefits thieves that are playing vs unaware or uninformed players.
It doesn’t require 5-10 guys, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to do it with 5-10 people but like I said. I’ve been pulling it off with 2 all day yesterday.
D/P #5 leaves a smoke circle AND it fires a shot, the thief then has to #2 from that smoke circle to become stealth. See the ring, jump towards it and try to get hit by #2 he will get the 3 sec debuff and more importantly you rattled his cage and often they don’t know how to handle such situations.
CnD thieves are extremely easy to find. If the zerg stays (for supply or whatever) stack up, AoE and keep your eyes open. If the zerg moves on leave 2 people behind (as you would for mesmers in towers/keeps) and wait for one of them to get hit. I’m a thief and currently playing vs 2 servers that have denied any of my efforts of holding a camp by stealthing within 30 seconds.
Want to know why? They know what to do and what to expect. AGAIN, Heart of the Mist roll a thief, mess around and realize that OMG IT HAS A WEAKNESS AND ISN’T OMG OP.
This has nothing to do with being elite, hell I consider myself rather mediocre but everyone that complains BEFORE doing any kind of investigating or trying to find out how thieves work should be called an idiot and their opinion should be ignored. And that’s what I’m going to do to you dear Krosan, I’ve explained everything you need to know about thieves, twice and you and your knowledge of this game aren’t worth anyone’s time. Come back when you have put in actual effort and realize that it really isn’t that hard to take care of. I will await your reply where you prove me right and I will bask in the glory.
Capping points while is stealth is a broken mecanic period.
I say that from experience,theres almost nothing you can do to stop it unless you got a good number of people with good team work and dont tell me to stack up and aoe spam because all i need to do is change to S/P and use heartseeker+powder instead of CnD.
You can maintain stealth without moving too using powder+cluster bomb if you are outside combat and abuse some camp spots…
And in case you do some mistakes (hiting someone on HS or missing CnD) you got so many safety nets(blinding powder,shadown refuge,steal,shadowstep) that make almost impossible to get killed.
I can content points for a minimum of 30 minutes and my ping is 120 and i just a mediocre player a good NA player with 25-40 ping probably can do this forever.
ya.. just hang in there till Friday’s patch
lol this thread got so far out of hand its downright humerous, I wasn’t crying for thief nerf I was just stating that an unfair mechanic is allowed to exist in wvwvw (which is loosely a pvp format) yet not in the other pvp format. Needs to be some consistency here. I think all has been said about this, thread needs to be locked cause it’s going in circles now.
Same:
forget it, there is no use in trying to explain. Most of the people here look for the easy solution – thief nerf. I as a thief still find myself smiling in front of the screen, thinking to myself “and here we have another clueless group, thank you very much”.
Because everyone who picks up the game instantly knows all the class mechanics inside out right? All it takes is one person for the thief to stop the entire group from capping a node.
And it’s funny that you mention your pleasure in abusing this tactic, which comes at a cost of 20-30 other pissed off players. So enjoy it while it lasts, because either Anet is going to fix this broken mechanic, or people are going to stop playing this game out of frustration.
Same:
forget it, there is no use in trying to explain. Most of the people here look for the easy solution – thief nerf. I as a thief still find myself smiling in front of the screen, thinking to myself “and here we have another clueless group, thank you very much”.
Because everyone who picks up the game instantly knows all the class mechanics inside out right? All it takes is one uninformed person for the thief to stop the entire group from capping a node.
And it’s funny that you mention your pleasure in abusing this tactic, which comes at a cost of 20-30 other pissed off players. So enjoy it while it lasts, because either Anet is going to fix this broken mechanic, or people are going to stop playing this game out of frustration.
Have to say when they hit you for 11k to 14k in one hit with backstab it makes the game VERY annoying. I had a very thankful long legger today whose life was saved when I noticed his health suddenly tick down as I was running behind him. A little interrupt push , moved the thief to a safe distance where I could deal with him but those things are so kitten annoying as they hop in and out of stealth! Only way to really track them is throw down poison and watch the numbers appear in mid air as his health slowly drains, gotta act fast or he vanishes completely again.
Don’t keep QQing and blaming stealth. Most classes have their own edge and thief only has one or two. Thieves been nerf a million times, if they nerf they better make up for it in one way or another. Besides most classes have their own survival advantage while thieves don’t without spamming stealth or dodge.
Solutions to capping thing:
1. Nerf camp Circle’s same size as towers
2. Can’t abuse cap while stealth duration is on
3. I find some traps and venom to be somewhat useless or is it just me? If they were more useful some thieves may spec differently.
But to be honest people kill me all the time even if its just 5 of them so I don’t see why 30 people can’t kill 1 thief. Maybe a group of level 1 PUGS but really Pro players and groups seem to have it easy. Doing 11k to 14k dmg im quite surprised since I barely do even half that. Maybe you should check your armor or see if he is very squishy with the type of gears stats and traits he chose but never a good idea to 1v1 those types even warriors can chop you bits in seconds without the need to backstab. o.O
(edited by Spica.9308)
Capping points while is stealth is a broken mecanic period.
This. There’s nothing wrong with permastealth. In a world without stealth caps (like sPvP) permastealth serves no purpose because you’re either standing around being invisible and useless, or actively engaging in combat and thereby exposing yourself to being killed. The only way that permastealth is doing anything useful as-is is because it can allow you to accomplish a non-combat oriented objective (standing in a circle to prevent a cap). Take away stealth capping/contesting and permastealth is no longer an issue.
Just for fun, look at your combat log after you get hit by a crit thief. Now compare the dmg the thief did with every other entry in the combat log. Thieves make every other class dmg output look like a joke.
Just for fun, look at your combat log after you get hit by a crit thief. Now compare the dmg the thief did with every other entry in the combat log. Thieves make every other class dmg output look like a joke.
Big numbers thieves are running entirely different builds than perma-stealth thieves and lumping them together in one thread just serves to cloud the issue. People think that it is the same thieves doing all these things when in reality they’re mutually exclusive setups.
That said, most professions can put out similar numbers to thieves if they follow the same engagement protocol – be a glass cannon and burn a bunch of CDs on a squishy target. Professions like warriors can even do more. The problem is low TTK in general, not thieves in specific. On the upside, ANet has already stated they’re going to take a look at toning down some of the more bursty setups contributing to low TTK.
30 people and you can’t take out one perma stealthing thief? He isn’t totally perma stealthed. Either he has to CnD someone or you’ll see random ‘splosions. That’s the queue for AoEs, pulls of all types, knockbacks(mesmer is the best for this). I can’t see how you didn’t get him with 30 people. Either you are overexaggerating or you guys really had no clue how to counter.
Although it is sort of game breaking and Anet will probably address it at some point. I just can’t see how 30 people can’t figure out how to counter this. Ten, perhaps, but 30? Should have been a walk in the park.
30 people and you can’t take out one perma stealthing thief? He isn’t totally perma stealthed. Either he has to CnD someone or you’ll see random ‘splosions. That’s the queue for AoEs, pulls of all types, knockbacks(mesmer is the best for this). I can’t see how you didn’t get him with 30 people. Either you are overexaggerating or you guys really had no clue how to counter.
Although it is sort of game breaking and Anet will probably address it at some point. I just can’t see how 30 people can’t figure out how to counter this. Ten, perhaps, but 30? Should have been a walk in the park.
Should be but it isn’t when played by a good player. It is a broken mechanic of the game.
Ever see two or three of them working together? Not bad players, but really skilled players? It’s ridiculous.
Now it takes 10+ man teams 5-10 minute to cap a supply point because of one class, a perma stealthed thief? Does this sound balanced? What if it was a guardian that could buff out and hold off 10 people for 5-10 minutes? Would people say it’s a balance issue for that class?
I find it fun that every class on his own is outbalanced to the rest according to the different forum posts.
Thieves should not be nerfed, it’s just the way they play and what they are good at. Without the stealth a thief would be too easy. And yes i find thieves very annoying myself to fight against, but I like challenges.
Now on the problem, I liked what Spica suggested, just make the rings smaller, it would be way harder for a thief to perma stealth smaller rings.
Simple solution add show stealthed players to some classes and all NPC Guard have it, so you can never stealth in to Supplycamp, Tower, Keep without first killing all Guards.
In no way shape or form do I think thieves stealth should be nerfed. I however, think they shouldn’t be able to capture nor defend a control point while stealthed be it camp tower keep or otherwise. It doesn’t work in spvp control points, neither should it work in WvW control points. Especially when you have a wall down at a keep and you need to send 20 people to supply up and bro g back repair supplies, those 20 people then have to deal with hunting down a thief only to be zerged by the enemy forces before ever getting the camp to 5% controlled.
Even the thief responsible for this whispered me and told me it was him solo holding it and not a group; agreed that it was a broken mechanic. I am not advocating a nerf, I simply am suggesting this control point issue be reviewed.
“ya.. just hang in there till Friday’s patch”
Is there a post anywhere that lists what will be changed in the patch? I have scanned and searched through the forums but I have found no specifics. I think most concerns would evaporate if we knew what was going to be changed.
Ulari
I think it’s a very valid tactic, actually!
You can kill them when they are in stealth, just spam your auto attacks, if you’re a group of people spread out any ground based attacks (them circles) within the circle, and they will keep triggering it.
Learn what you need to look for (I’ve chansed down thieves in stealth myself, as a bugged out necro so go go)
And here I thought Anet claimed there would be limited duration stealth in GW2. Franky I don’t see any difference between the stealth duration in this game and any other MMO. In fact, stealth is actually more limited in other MMOs because it typically breaks on damage and you can’t cap (or in this case prevent a cap) while hidden.
The capping mechanics are the problem here, not the fact that the Thief has perma-stealth.
You notice this in other aspects of the game too (Bunker standing on nodes in tPvP, single mobs stalling the capping progress in PvE).
There needs to be a simple mechanic that allows you to cap with a sufficient majority.
If you have 3 players within a cap area and the enemy has 2, then it should slowly progress towards your side. If you have a 1v2 going on, it will slowly go towards the enemy.
That would solve a lot more than a Thief specific abuse tactic.
To those convinced that this is a problem, I issue a challenge;
Create a thief and try it for yourself.
It simply amazes me how difficult it is to do this tactic against a competent group compared to how easy it is to do against an incompetent group.
Please take the advice of the developers given at the release of the game and try to learn how to deal with a strategy first, before crying imbalance issues.
Correction! There’s no such thing as perma-stealth. People here thinks that just because they know their class so well means they can defeat just anybody. They can actually be quite predictable at times and with a certain minimum level of toughness and vitality they can barely kill since escape is possible if not easy on my part even though im a light armor wearer now (Not really the fastest class in terms of movement speed with all these boons, mesmers and elementalist). Everything else is a thief secret but they are one of the best escape and ambush classes duh? In terms of damage output they wear medium armor so its not surprising that they should at least have decent damage while going melee with it (Did you check your stats vs his? Did you know other class can dish out 14k+ not in 1 hit but a chain of fast combos or illusions+spells or massive spell aoe spams or abuse massive range advantages + dmg for killing blows) The thing is if they nerf thief there are tons of things to nerf Warriors, Mesmers, Rangers and Elementalists too. Only Classes like Guardian, Necromancers and Engineers are most underated. IMO
(edited by Spica.9308)
Thieves don’t need to be nerfed again they already put a no stealth cooldown which is longer than when they are in stealth 3 seconds of stealth for every 30 ~ 60 sec skill cd as for Shadow Refuge when Thieves use that just aoe the kitten thing… Stealth is the only thing that keeps thieves/rogues alive especially with most of em being glasscannons its how the class was built now learn how to deal with it.. As for the stealth contesting I say it is a viable strategy if you don’t like them on the enemy side then be prepared to be affected on your side either I’m sure some of you approve of this when its in your team…
Agreed to this. We all know how do deal with this come on people. Dont be a dolyak and just do the same thing….learn and adept…..you aoe like crazy…he still take damage even in stealth.
I primarily played a Guardian, and found myself frustrated over this same issue. As per my norm, instead of coming to the forums and kittening about it, I made a thief to learn. My thief is 80 and exotic geared, and is now my main I enjoy this style of play soo much.
First: If they make any major changes to stealth, they will need to make major changes to the rest of the class as a whole. No thief is tanky in any form. They will all die to any class if voided the ability to deceive and hide (yes, yes, thieves can run fast to survive, but that isn’t the point when talking about trying to kill). If the dev’s give into the masses who are complaining about abilities they simply don’t understand and haven’t taken the time to learn, then the class will be forced to be majorly altered into essentially a different class. Might as well call it an assassin then I guess (referencing non-stealthing GW1 class).
Secondly: There are easy ways to exploit what the thief has to do to remain hidden. If you are in a zerg, follow the steps listed above and you win.
Third: Mastering the art of delaying a camps progress at capping takes a lot more skill than people give it the credit for. I have played my thief for a couple weeks now and would say I am only “okay” with keeping myself hidden. I’ve only the past few days found myself effectively killing people without simply dying for the kill, and can mostly keep a point from capping. This only happens because the group doesn’t recate properly tho.
Lastly: Stop claiming the thief will remain perma-stealth and put up the biggest numbers. That is two completely different styles of thieves with completely different builds. A perma-stealth thief (as you call them) is not going to kill you within a couple seconds, while a glass canon thief can not perma-stealth.
My best suggestion to every single person in this thread who was too busier QQ’n here rather than adjusting and improving to overcome is: Create a thief yourself and learn. Knowledge is power, and with enough knowledge you will find yourself realizing it is not as OP as it outwardly seemed. I have now realized this and so can you. Best of luck to all of you in your future learning!
One more thing i think is a thif should not be able to do finish in stealth, when a player is down the thife should have to unstealth before pressing F, not as it is now he get unstealthed when his character is up in the air at the end off finishing move.
There you can have same but say add on 4 you unstealth any enemy close to you.
One more thing i think is a thif should not be able to do finish in stealth, when a player is down the thife should have to unstealth before pressing F, not as it is now he get unstealthed when his character is up in the air at the end off finishing move.
There you can have same but say add on 4 you unstealth any enemy close to you.
Sure but also remove the ability for every class in the game who can either stealth / invuln or stability stomp.
Hint: Every single class has one of these methods. (maybe not necros, dunno never played necro).
One more thing i think is a thif should not be able to do finish in stealth, when a player is down the thife should have to unstealth before pressing F, not as it is now he get unstealthed when his character is up in the air at the end off finishing move.
There you can have same but say add on 4 you unstealth any enemy close to you.
I actually used to agree with this, and I have changed my opinion of this as well. The issue here is the same as why the thief can’t lose stealth or have major changes to it. The thief isn’t built to take a ton of damage. A downed player could kill a thief from 40% health to downed in the time it takes to complete a finish move. It would require a major rework of the thief for this to be effectively and fairly implemented as well. Remember, thieves are paper … they just cause a really big paper cut.
I personally feel the downed state is terrible and should be removed all together, but that is a debate for a different thread and different time.
As a thief, I can say tealth capping or protecting should be removed asap.
As a thief, I can say tealth capping or protecting should be removed asap.
^^ this solution would work great. Stealth capping / preventing is the issue, not stealth.
Yeah, just the fact that it takes a group of 20 players spamming AOE’s to counter the actions of 1 thief is absolute proof that the situation is utterly imbalanced. Both Mesmers and Thieves need some serious adjustments (and yes, I play a Thief).
To those convinced that this is a problem, I issue a challenge;
Create a thief and try it for yourself.
It simply amazes me how difficult it is to do this tactic against a competent group compared to how easy it is to do against an incompetent group.
Please take the advice of the developers given at the release of the game and try to learn how to deal with a strategy first, before crying imbalance issues.
I just did. It’s hilariously easy to pull off. The stealth and flag capture mechanic in WvW is simply broken.
thieves need to be fixed ASAP.
perma stealth under any conditions
killing people before you can even be seen then restealthing (see previous)
stealth capping
nearly instant stabbing of downed enemies while stealthed.
the class is totally broken, especially in WvW
I’m shocked its been allowed to persist this long
I get a kick out of people defending this mechanic!!
How does the saying go? You cant convince a person of something when their job depends on it being otherwise?
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.