Guild Wars 2

The control point areas around supply camps are HUGE. Letting one player contest it by stopping the count, while in stealth, is a broken game play mechanic.

Just a question: Is there anybody who does not play thief and says this is fine?

I play a thief but A-net should make it so you cant stop capping when stealthed like sPVP.

But it is hilarious how so many people don’t know how to counter this little problem. So many people just have no idea how thieves actually stay stealthed.

Thieves don’t need to be fixed, making WvWvW capping points like sPvP is clearly the answer whereby a stealthed player cannot actually cap or hold anything.

Just make the “cap” ring a 1500 diameter circle around where the “boss” spawns. not that gigantic 4k one that 2 thieves can conceivably hold indefinably as in most camps there’s too much stuff to “hide” behind.

SmokeyNYY.7841:

I play a thief but A-net should make it so you cant stop capping when stealthed like sPVP.

But it is hilarious how so many people don’t know how to counter this little problem. So many people just have no idea how thieves actually stay stealthed.

We know how to counter it mate. But “staying stealthed” inside a gigantic circle with buildings you can hide behind to reset your stealth cooldowns is kitten. And as you can see names through walls, also kitten, when a thief sees someone coming at them they wait until the last minute, then drop stealth..and run to a new hiding spot, go vis, reset cooldown, do it all again. Thats the part thats lame. The ole “just AoE it” is bout shortsighted in a statement as the area is way too big for a small group to try to sustain AoE on it.

Nothing should be claimable or triggered in stealth… period.

If the enemy can’t see you, neither should any triggering or claiming mechanism. One, ten, or a hundred stealthers hanging out in a ring should not matter if there 1 unstealthed combatant alive and kicking the ticker – that’s the color that should own the ring.

This is not rocket surgery, it’s common sense.

dank.3680:

Sure but also remove the ability for every class in the game who can either stealth / invuln or stability stomp.

Hint: Every single class has one of these methods. (maybe not necros, dunno never played necro).

Necros can gain stability from death shroud, immediately leave it, and stomp an enemy, though it requires a grandmaster trait. Not sure if they have another way.

Tulisin.6945:

transtemporal.2158:

Just for fun, look at your combat log after you get hit by a crit thief. Now compare the dmg the thief did with every other entry in the combat log. Thieves make every other class dmg output look like a joke.

Big numbers thieves are running entirely different builds than perma-stealth thieves and lumping them together in one thread just serves to cloud the issue. People think that it is the same thieves doing all these things when in reality they’re mutually exclusive setups.

That said, most professions can put out similar numbers to thieves if they follow the same engagement protocol – be a glass cannon and burn a bunch of CDs on a squishy target. Professions like warriors can even do more. The problem is low TTK in general, not thieves in specific. On the upside, ANet has already stated they’re going to take a look at toning down some of the more bursty setups contributing to low TTK.

They are not mutually exclusive set-ups. I have fought numerous thieves in wvw that had huge dmg and near perma-stealth.

Yes, most professions can put out similar dmg to thieves… if they make themselves unviable 10k glass cannons. The difference with the thief is that the glass cannon strategy is viable because of the mobility and stealth that the prof has. No other prof can do that.

Yes, warriors can do better dmg in some cases than a thief… again at the cost of being a glass cannon. The difference is that the warrior can output a big chunk of dmg once every 20-30 seconds. The thief can spam 1 and 2 constantly and yes yes, I know that thieves run out of initiative but I have a thief and init regen is easy to manage when you spend a lot of every fight in stealth regenning init at an increased rate.

The proof is in the combat log though. Where ever there are 10 lines of huge dmg, its always a thief. Occasionally I see a 6k Kill Shot or a 8k hundred blades, but they are far and few between.

I believe the Nov. 15th patch will make thieves and mesmers in WvW very miserable simply because they will have to compete on even terms with everyone else.

No more infinite portal transport, no more bypassing keep defenses with your little portals even when out of LoS, no more perma stealth, no more capping while in stealth.

Now if they can also just fix the culling problem.

Drednyte.7601:

The ole “just AoE it” is bout shortsighted in a statement as the area is way too big for a small group to try to sustain AoE on it.

I used to think this would be a viable strat against a thief until I made a thief and saw how laughable easy it is to avoid AoE when your enemy doesn’t know where you are, lol.

They could just make the ring for supply camps smaller, that woulc probably do the trick.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

dank.3680:

Sure but also remove the ability for every class in the game who can either stealth / invuln or stability stomp.

Hint: Every single class has one of these methods. (maybe not necros, dunno never played necro).

Necros can gain stability from death shroud, immediately leave it, and stomp an enemy, though it requires a grandmaster trait. Not sure if they have another way.

something that every class has access to (stability Stomp) doesn’t need to be removed LOL !
on the other hand only a few classes have stealth, and the only one that is broken as hell is the thief.

The thief has been a problematic profession from the very start, they should’ve scrapped it and come up with something new and original. Stealth/rogue classes are always a pain to balance and it’s the class that is always picked by the ones that think or want to feel elite to grief and harass people.

Do tell why stealth stomping is so much better than stability stomping then. I’d love to hear it.

Not too sure about the specifics of perma stealth but if you have an elem around have him conjure a frost bow(someone else can get the second one). When the thief comes out of stealth(and can be tabbed to as someone mentioned is possible), hit the number 5 ability. Even if the thief goes back into stealth, the shot goes off and will freeze the thief in place which will be very obvious by the large block of ice in the air at this point just nuke that area and dead thief. I’m not defending thief stealthing but just giving options.

To be honest, if your group is bad enough to not kill the thief stealthing on you then you deserve to not get the cap.

I suggest players that think point holding on thief forever is easy, to try and do just that on a thief.
Any half brain group will stomp you so hard.

So my compliments to any thief that can hold a point forever, you’r true master of your class.

transtemporal.2158:

They are not mutually exclusive set-ups. I have fought numerous thieves in wvw that had huge dmg and near perma-stealth.

Perma-stealth and “near perma-stealth” are two very different things. Anyone can pull stealth often by alternating C&D, Shadow Refuge, and heal stealth while giving up very little offense. The builds required to consistently contest points for >5 minutes rely heavily on Shadow Arts traits and defensive stats in combination with the initiative regen required to maintain Heartseekers through Black Powder fields. This is too utility, gear, and trait heavy to be able to effectively pull off while still having “huge damage”.

Apart from the fact that I think capping should work (once the important NPC is down) so that the team with more players inside the circle should cap it (as it works in GW 1) you’re not really trying an efficient counter.

The thief CANNOT remain invisible endlessly without Cloak and Dagger (D/D, P/D) or the #5 #2 with D/P. Even if skilled so that stealing makes him invisible and given the chance he finds something while stealing to grant him another stealth for free … stealing, etc. has cooldown so that sooner or later the thief MUST attack to regain stealth.

If you have 20+ people you’re helping him if you clump together in the middle. Everyone with a low power computer will have culling issues and thus will prolong the stealth artificially.

Have everyone but 2 people move out of the circle. Those two (Elementalist work well) will stand together and spam blindness, cripple, bleed if they can and lay AoE on themselves.

The thief now has two options when he has to attack. He can go for the targets in the circle and risk being hit by the AoE or (worse) blinded and have his attack miss or he can attack one of the targets outside of the circle.

When he opts for the 2nd plan he will leave the circle and your capping will progress a bit before the thief returns. Eventually you will cap (hopefully before the NPCs respawn).

With most of the team out of the circle range (anyone not able to provide AoE should not be even near it) culling issues will be significantly better and the thief will render pretty quickly once his stealth time is over.

This from a thief who had this tactic used against him ^^

Simply make it so you can’t contribute to the cap if you are in stealth and the problem is solved. There are some thiefs that are really good and can remain kitten near perma stealthed even with everyone aoe’ing the area.

There is no reason a single person should be able to stop something from capping like that. It is especialy bad with supply camps since the ring is so huge and they do it just to stop the cap before the point tick and then leave after.

Stealthed thieves trigger Necro marks. Problem solved.

Does it matter really? Other server’s thieves are doing this to you. I am sure your server’s thieves are doing the same things to them. Just like all other complains about turtle tactics, portal bomb, thieves too OP, etc etc. This is world vs world, we are fighting for our server, not individual pride or honor.

one thief he can hold a camp with 30 persons and more,great.fix the thiefs asap because this is bug and annoying all others.

HtFde.3856:

Apart from the fact that I think capping should work (once the important NPC is down) so that the team with more players inside the circle should cap it (as it works in GW 1) you’re not really trying an efficient counter.

The thief CANNOT remain invisible endlessly without Cloak and Dagger (D/D, P/D) or the #5 #2 with D/P. Even if skilled so that stealing makes him invisible and given the chance he finds something while stealing to grant him another stealth for free … stealing, etc. has cooldown so that sooner or later the thief MUST attack to regain stealth.

If you have 20+ people you’re helping him if you clump together in the middle. Everyone with a low power computer will have culling issues and thus will prolong the stealth artificially.

Have everyone but 2 people move out of the circle. Those two (Elementalist work well) will stand together and spam blindness, cripple, bleed if they can and lay AoE on themselves.

The thief now has two options when he has to attack. He can go for the targets in the circle and risk being hit by the AoE or (worse) blinded and have his attack miss or he can attack one of the targets outside of the circle.

When he opts for the 2nd plan he will leave the circle and your capping will progress a bit before the thief returns. Eventually you will cap (hopefully before the NPCs respawn).

With most of the team out of the circle range (anyone not able to provide AoE should not be even near it) culling issues will be significantly better and the thief will render pretty quickly once his stealth time is over.

This from a thief who had this tactic used against him ^^

If a group of people have to do what you have suggested to counter one playable class, you don’t see this as a problem?

Really?

flozn.3410:

Stealthed thieves trigger Necro marks. Problem solved.

You try to mark up the whole supply camp circle and let me know how that works out for you.

Oh and don’t forget to mark every inch of the ground and the tower while you are at it.

Just make it if you are stealthed you are unable to contest the cappint point, problem solved.

Zilm.8459:

If a group of people have to do what you have suggested to counter one playable class, you don’t see this as a problem?

Really?

This is WvW not me against the world. When you encounter a turtle you have to adjust your tactics, when you’re being portal bombed you have to adjust your tactics. When you have a recap team you have to adjust your tactics to be able to deal with the thieves you encounter.

If you keep re-claiming your depots with an 8 man team that knows what to do … how much fun will the thief get from his playstyle? WvW has a strong psychological side to it too.

You might argue that, yes, one class should not be able to block a capping and I agree if you agree, this from my Ranger, that no class should be able to deal as much damage as a guardian or warrior does … where do we end?

Generic 1 profession game with zero options and 1 skill – totally fair and balanced.

Once the culling problem is no longer you’ll see that stealthed thieves are actually rather pathetic (unless, alas, I see them more and more these days, they use hacks with micro teleports and additional stealth + full heal).

Scyntrus.2458:

Just a question: Is there anybody who does not play thief and says this is fine?

I do!

cannons.8109:

Zilm.8459:

HtFde.3856:

Apart from the fact that I think capping should work (once the important NPC is down) so that the team with more players inside the circle should cap it (as it works in GW 1) you’re not really trying an efficient counter.

The thief CANNOT remain invisible endlessly without Cloak and Dagger (D/D, P/D) or the #5 #2 with D/P. Even if skilled so that stealing makes him invisible and given the chance he finds something while stealing to grant him another stealth for free … stealing, etc. has cooldown so that sooner or later the thief MUST attack to regain stealth.

If you have 20+ people you’re helping him if you clump together in the middle. Everyone with a low power computer will have culling issues and thus will prolong the stealth artificially.

Have everyone but 2 people move out of the circle. Those two (Elementalist work well) will stand together and spam blindness, cripple, bleed if they can and lay AoE on themselves.

The thief now has two options when he has to attack. He can go for the targets in the circle and risk being hit by the AoE or (worse) blinded and have his attack miss or he can attack one of the targets outside of the circle.

When he opts for the 2nd plan he will leave the circle and your capping will progress a bit before the thief returns. Eventually you will cap (hopefully before the NPCs respawn).

With most of the team out of the circle range (anyone not able to provide AoE should not be even near it) culling issues will be significantly better and the thief will render pretty quickly once his stealth time is over.

This from a thief who had this tactic used against him ^^

If a group of people have to do what you have suggested to counter one playable class, you don’t see this as a problem?

Really?

I find that funny as well. It’s like having to prepare for a raid boss. But really, why is this a big deal? I find that it adds a lot of fun to WvW, which gets stale and repetitive. I’ve tried it myself on my thief, and it’s not as easy as it looks.

Thieves simply should not be able to cap / prevent cap while hidden. That would solve a TON of issues.

As a thief I completely agree with the OP. This should not be happening and needs fixing

Agreed with OP.

Both capping and contesting a cap should be canceled during stealth.

I made a thief after my 80 warrior and have got several thousand wvw kills from each. I’ve been thinking the stealth mechanic in general is not that well balanced. There should be a very clear visual indicator when hitting a stealthed character (not conditions, only direct damage). Of course it should not unstealth them but it should be somewhat clear when you hit someone who’s stealthed.

Not a direct nerf but it would take out more of the cheese/luck gameplay that can happen when facing a thief that’s stealthing all the time. It would make the class actually require some good positioning and thought before you decide to move in for another stealth hit when your target/s already know you’re around.

hi i am a thief from blackgate who has taken advantage of this a lot tho not recently as i am too busy to play gw2 let me point out that the ability to do this stealth prevent thing varies WIDELY by a few factors:
-who you are fighting being the biggest(some players by themselves or in a zerg can counter a thief even when some zergs cant manage this),
-how many are you fighting(usually more the better cause that puts culling on your side)
-and which supply camp as the cover/circle size vary vastly.

let me say these solutions would all work by themselves to fix the issue:
-Reduce circle size
or No hold point while stealthed
or Capture progress based on population difference(least favorite there are enough wv3 mechanics that encourage zerging)
or Fix culling
or Release an official educational video to show how easy it is to counter this(may not work as most players are just too bad to ever understand)

I want them to do one of the above fixes and not just outright nerf thief to the ground due to incompetent players complaining about something that may be cheap and difficult to deal with (skillwise not powerwise)but not broken

Capture points based on the population / players @ the control point, would most definitely NOT work. It would bleed over into other issues. Especially when a server is outmanned. I do not support it. It would break W/PVP.

My opinion? Just make it so a stealth player can not capture or prevent a capture while in stealth; and adjust stealth abilities to server capabilities. No NERFS. Just fix and or adjust.

If you reduced the control point areas, that too would be abused by stacking. Currently, the large areas offers strategy and fun. It gives players and large groups enough breathing space to move about.
GW2 is a great game… it only needs minor adjustments etc..

Stealth should break on damage. This will actually solve a lot of the problems people are having.
I hope they fix the bugged stealth in wvw soon also, thieves had it easymode for for quite enough already.

Kaleygh.1524:

Stealth should break on damage. This will actually solve a lot of the problems people are having.

And create a whole new host of problems by destroying how stealth works. It is so easy to hit stealthed opponents as-is that making it simply drop on damage would make stealth trivial to mitigate.

Fixeon.5076:

30 people? Stack up spam AoE, use AoE pulls and Roots sooner or later he will have to get close to you or give his position away with a refuge/smoke ring.

I agree this should not be possible but for the time being you have to deal with it and there are ways of dealing with it.

Not true. There is a way for Thief to essentially spam heartseeker in their Blackpowder field. Comboing Stealth. It can be done somewhere in a cornor, without you seeing him. Turn of auto-target and he can basicly do it indefinitly with the right build. Stacking up and spamming AoE would do absolutely nothing.

Problem is stealth, and problem is that some cap areas are just a bit to big aswell.