Guild Wars 2

Thiefs being able to stealth and then perform a finisher or res an ally is far too op. A thief in stealth interacting with a downed player, whether a teammate or an enemy, should lose stealth just like using an attack.

If a nearby player doesn’t happen to have a cc skill not on cd, a thief can finish off someone without anyone being able to target the thief. Same with healing. I know the 2 people doing “balancing” love their thiefs, but this should be reworked.

TheLaughingMan.4320:

If a nearby player doesn’t happen to have a cc skill not on cd, a thief can finish off someone without anyone being able to target the thief.

First off, I hope this is a troll thread.

If not…

Yes let’s take away stealth stomps so low HP pool, generally squishy thieves have to be completely vulnerable while the ~3s stomp animation goes off. Thats fair too.

Even if you have CC, other classes like engi and Ele will just Mist Form/ Elixer S stomp you and laugh when you try to CC them where stealth stomping leaves you quite vulnerable. But, healing downed allies is the thing thats really OP. One person rezzing will save an ally b4 a non quickness stomp can go off, if both the stomp and rez starts at the same time. So your friend thats scratching his head at what he should do to save you from being stealth stomped is just … well I’ll leave the colorful adjectives and pronouns up to your imagination.

Azgarn.2145:

Even if you have CC, other classes like engi and Ele will just Mist Form/ Elixer S stomp you and laugh when you try to CC them where stealth stomping leaves you quite vulnerable.

Stealth stomp is by far more common than what you are now trying to compare it with. During my many hundred hours of WvWvW I have never seen an elementalist do a mist form stomp, nor an engineer do an Elixir S stomp. Both of those skills have a long cooldown and are generally saved for situations where you need to save your own kitten . I see stealth stomps everyday and there is often very little you can do to stop them. If you see a downed ally quite far, sure you can spam some AoE there, but does this kill the stealthed thief… rarely. Fear and hard CC skills like area stun have usually very long cooldowns, thus they are not available when the stealth stomp occurs.

In fact if you would play an engineer or play against engineers, you would realize Elixir S is just a prolonged death wish in WvWvW. If I see an enemy engineer use that skill I know that he will be dead in few seconds after that 3 seconds of invulnerability runs out. My engineer stopped using that skill a long time ago.

I have no problem with the stealth finish. That is what they have. You would still be dead if they used and invulnerability, stability, any other form of immunity stomp anyway that everyone else likes to use.

I do think that after said finish they should get a revealed. It is an attack from stealth and as such should follow the same rules as other attacks from stealth.

No there are many stomps learn to counter, but I much prefer my bp stomp

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth stomp is by far more common than what you are now trying to compare it with. During my many hundred hours of WvWvW I have never seen an elementalist do a mist form stomp

You must run on a strange server because the ele mist stomp is one of the most common safe stomps I have seen in the game. It is also by far the best safe stomp in the game IMO.

Taking a thief out of action for 3s, open them up for AoE/fear/etc and waste skill/initiative is IMO bad play if their are other alternatives. Besides much of the time the downed player has a way to interrupt or avoid the stealth stomp wasting a valuable stealth. A stationary thief in skirmish is a dead thief most of the time. The only time I thief stealth stomp on our skirmish team is when I need to bring someone up or we have a lot of the enemy down.

Maybe a reveal should happen after the stomp but that is as far as I would take it.

No way I would ever waste my mist form just to stomp some guy.
A complete waste.

I probably stomp a half-dozen ppl in the average GvG, more in a GvBlob fight. If I think I might need to waste a utility on a stomp, I just move on to the next poor sucker.

Been brought up before, nearly everybody and their mom agrees thieves should lose their stealth during stomps. Not only that but lose stealth for “x” period of time after attacking.

Will Anet do anything about it? Not anytime soon, but they will eventually as they are known to listen to the masses of people whether it’s a good idea or bad. The question is, when this happens, are thieves going to whine and moan or are they going to adjust?

Remove down state in pvp all problems solved.

Deniara Devious.3948:

In fact if you would play an engineer or play against engineers, you would realize Elixir S is just a prolonged death wish in WvWvW. If I see an enemy engineer use that skill I know that he will be dead in few seconds after that 3 seconds of invulnerability runs out. My engineer stopped using that skill a long time ago.

Auto-proc Elixir S is a death wish, the normal one is only a death wish if you’re stupid in your use of it.

If you ever left your zergs and fought some 1vx’s you’d know how useful invuln stomps are and how useless stealth stomp is in comparison (except against idiots)

Edit: @ DeadlySynz

Removing stealth stomp from thief would be a huge nerf, though you’d also have to remove it from engineers and mesmers if you are going to remove it.

Stealth is the most accessible of the stomp aids (stability, invulns, stealth, teleports), but is also by far the weakest. Stability stomp can only be stopped by porting away or your teammates downing the stomper. Invuln stomp can only be stopped by porting away. The way to prevent teleport stomps depends on which kind is being used, but essentially boil down to dpsing or cc’ing the stomper or porting away in the case of shadowstep stomp. Stealth stomp however, only really prevents the downed person from using any single target skills. Any aoe CC will still go through, as will any aoe damage from teammates.

Berengar.6951:

Auto-proc Elixir S is a death wish, the normal one is only a death wish if you’re stupid in your use of it.

If you ever left your zergs and fought some 1vx’s you’d know how useful invuln stomps are and how useless stealth stomp is in comparison (except against idiots)

For your information I do solo roaming in WvWvW everyday. And I didn’t lose a single 1vs1 today. In fact enemy likes to run away. And yes, I have fought against enemy engineers and elementalists solo as well. I would still argue that most engineer skill bars have now some better skills to choose than Elixir S. Elixirs make sense if you take cleaning formula 409 and HGH, but otherwise I would choose something else.

Stealth stomping is to my estimate 100 times more common than invulnerability stomping in WvWvW. This topic keeps popping up every month or so. Clearly it is an issue and I would like some comments from the developers.

If you say that stealth stomping is useless and useful only against idiots, then tell me if you solo roam as a warrior or engineer, how you are gonna stop the stealthed enemy from stomping you? Downed skill #1 nor skill #2 won’t help you. And the thief will have you already stealth stomped before skill #3 is available.

I have no issue to remove invulnerability stomp as well.

Lyonell.1753:

Remove down state in pvp all problems solved.

This would be so great if it happened. But as long as Anet views WvW as something for casuals, it’s not going to happen.

So, if they are going to remained wedded to this system, they at least need to balance it. As it stands now, stealth spikes are unbalanced. You just can’t deny that.

If thief stealth in general were higher risk — for example, if they couldn’t restealth in combat — then a stealth spike would be okay. They would have earned it by outplaying their opponent.

But to be able to constantly restealth in combat, and then stealth for spike, is just grossly unbalanced.

Second thread about this in as many weeks?

Already been said in other threads and probably here too…

Blinding Powder.. too short to stomp.
AoE stealth, enemy players can see the aoe field, so can counter.
Healing Stealth skill = waste of skill to stomp.

Either way, for the thief to stealth stomp he/she must be near you, anyone can counter this. Stealth does not make the thief immune to damage or CC…

I think all ability should have a counter and there is nothing I can do VS this. I think in general there should be something allowing to see invi for some class.

The problem with stealth is that it do not cancel at damage. If you just think ybout invisibility, there are many ways to counter it. Most common use is throw something kitten possible place and if it hit anything, there is stealthed person. Examples like throwing sand to stick it on stealth opponent.
But in this game, even if you hit something stealthed, you dont see that it hit. You have no idea it hit something.
Wierd is that if I try to hit Stalker (mob in PvE) that is stealthed, my fireball stops in air. Mobs are going straight for you, you can try it. Sometimes you just throw fireballs on his last position, they explode in air, you got exp, and few secs ago mos unstealth.
But throwing fireball on stealthed thief last position, and he is standing there, just flew throught him, damage him and continue to fly on its trace. In WvW you can test it, just party some enemy thief and test it with him.

Why should Thieves lose stealth when Mesmer Clones aren’t destroyed when they go in for the stomp? When Warrior’s Endure Pain? When Elementalists Mist Form? When Guardians invuln or gain protection? When other classes stealth? When Necros use cloak?

The thief isn’t built to take punishment. Earlier it was mentioned that Ele’s have similar health as a Thief and go in for the stomp. When you go in for the stomp, you’re often at near full health because of the numerous healing options available. You often have stability/protection. You have shield up. You have a dozen other options to defend yourself.

The thief has stealth. Has no healing/condition removal outside of stealth. Has no stability option.

There’s nothing wrong with a thief stealth stomping. Use your energy signing the petition to remove downed state from the game in general. It may be more productive.

Atherakhia.4086:

The thief has stealth. Has no healing/condition removal outside of stealth. Has no stability option.

Oh yeah?

Healing without stealth:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Malice

The 1st has just 15 s cooldown and removes also movement impeding conditions.

And 8 seconds stability:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm

You can combine this or any other thief elite skill with 6 x Lyssa runes. When you activate your elite you get all the boons and cleanse off all the conditions as well. Thief has 2 low cooldown elites, dagger storm and basilisk venom. So Lyssa runes work well with a thief.

But I agree a lot of thief abilities are interlinked with stealth. You get better condition removal (in fact one of the best condition removals in the game for any profession) during stealth, also pretty kitten nice healing, faster movement speed, ability to do mroe damage and so on. Stealth is very powerful. Sadly Arenanet designed it so that there are no hard counters, besides those anti-stealth traps, which are even broken at the moment. Thus there will continue to be lots of QQ about stealth.

Some days ago in the eternal battlegounds.

Rumple: Let’s take that camp.
The other dude: Oki.

During their attack a thief appeared in the open field.

The other dude: INC!
Rumple: bah, just a thief.

Some moments later the other dude was downed and the thief hid in the shades of shadow refuge. Rumple through everything she had on the spot, where the other dude was laying and as she finally reached him, she started healing her comrad.

The other dude: ty, I think he run off.
Rumple yeah, maybe

Not more than a couple of seconds after the other dude was on his feet again, the thief apeared out in the open, downed and close to death. The other dude and Rumple had no trouble finishing him off.

Rumple: conditions imba^^
The other dude: xD

this is sad that this is still an issue for people, are you new players? stealth stomping is entirely interruptable, its not even the most effective way for thieves to stomp/res, you want effective? black powder says hi. aoe pulsing blind preventing you from hitting the thief with ANY interrupt.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Been brought up before, nearly everybody and their mom agrees thieves should lose their stealth during stomps. Not only that but lose stealth for “x” period of time after attacking.

Man, thats a great idea, thieves should lose stealth any time they damage a target, and maybe give them a debuff to make them immune to stealth then too, so they cant spam stealth. You are brilliant, maybe they could call the debuff revealed eh? That seems to fit, and since we know bads will still lose to some thieves and cry, maybe anet could give them another handicap, and create some sort of anti stealth trap to make them unable to stealth for 30s or so, just to make it easier for the carebears.

Attempting a stomp should break stealth.

That said, the stomp is just a horrible mechanic in general. It favors certain classes way too heavily and making stealth stomping a no go would just put all the focus on stability stomping which is an even bigger issue at the moment. I’d love to see it removed entirely and have the downed system be redesigned accordingly. It’s just a mess.

A stomp is an attack, therefore thief should lose stealth. Many classes like warr, mes, need a target to use downed skills that affect the attacking player. Most skills which can counter a stealth stomp have a good chance of being on cd after a battle that takes more than 10 seconds.

If you objectively watch thief combat in wvw, you will see thief immediately stealth and perform stomp as soon as someone is downed. A stomp is an attack/interaction with enemy player, therefore it should get spotted status for thief, just like every other attack.

In addition, if a thief uses a skill/signet that grants quickness, which does affect finisher, there is more than enough time in stealth to finish an opponent using blinding powder or even d/p 5+2

You don’t lose stealth until you deal damage on an attack. So if we are considering a stomp an attack, you shouldn’t lose stealth until the stomp is finished (and the “damage” is dealt).

quite a funny thing happen to me last night, i was solo caping a camp and just befor the cap finished a thief ganked me, i got hes health down to about 1/3 before he downed me, he stealth stomped me, while he was in stealth the cap on the camp finished, and the NPC’s killed him (he did get the stomp off), a npc revived me and i picked up hes loot bag and carried on.

Camp capping OP

Pfft. Well then make downed state so that you also can’t spam #1 to “stomp” someone. Removing stealth stomp == more power for zergs and nothing else.

I don’t understand why so many people here think that having more numbers should be an automatic win. Why should stomping while being greatly outmanned be next to impossible?

d/p stealth spam crap is what needs tuning, not stealth stomp.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Atherakhia.4086:

The thief has stealth. Has no healing/condition removal outside of stealth. Has no stability option.

Oh yeah?

Healing without stealth:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Malice

The 1st has just 15 s cooldown and removes also movement impeding conditions.

And 8 seconds stability:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm

You can combine this or any other thief elite skill with 6 x Lyssa runes. When you activate your elite you get all the boons and cleanse off all the conditions as well. Thief has 2 low cooldown elites, dagger storm and basilisk venom. So Lyssa runes work well with a thief.

But I agree a lot of thief abilities are interlinked with stealth. You get better condition removal (in fact one of the best condition removals in the game for any profession) during stealth, also pretty kitten nice healing, faster movement speed, ability to do mroe damage and so on. Stealth is very powerful. Sadly Arenanet designed it so that there are no hard counters, besides those anti-stealth traps, which are even broken at the moment. Thus there will continue to be lots of QQ about stealth.

sigh

Those things you mentioned have nothing to do with a thief’s ability to stomp beyond runes of lyssa for the protective boons. But if you are going to blow an elite for a stomp, you might as well use Mist Form or Elixer S since people were saying you wouldn’t waste that long of a cd for a stomp.

IF it’s a 1v1 stealth stomp isn’t going to matter in most situations. You are dead and if the thief is low HP he would range you down.

IF it’s a 1vX then it’s an easy kill. A stealth stomp usually means he right over your body using the stop animation. He’s invisible, but he’s still there. Melee attacks still hit him.

If it were up to me I’d remove down state in general. The whole idea is stupid and only helps people who outnumber you already. If it’s a 1Vx it’s already hard enough to down someone. Any form of stomp outside of invulnerability stomp/tele stomp = certain death against decent players

I think the problem is that there is a down state in this game period.

I like the downed system, but it and the rez-system is just not tweaked right:

• If one person can outres the dmg of another persone, granted this person does some reasonable dmg, than smth is wrong.
• If a Zerg can res his finished players in the midds of a fight, than smth is wrong.
• ppl loosing conditions, but keeping boons is weird
• one sec of invunerability is weird

At least that’s how I see it.

Facepalm….. A thief that stops to revive while under shadow refuge is not “op”.

1: thief drops SR to stomp, That thief is stuck in positon for a few seconds, usually very very close to the downed player. AOE’s, blast, and spin attacks will usually hit the thief.

2: thief drops SR to stomp, Again thief is stuck in position for a few seconds and it is usually very predictable on where the player is at. Swing, AOE, Blast in the general area and you usually get several hits on them.

rule of thumb, Don’t stop swinging for a few seconds after. Alot of times those thieves are glass cannons and got downed while you were swinging wildly.

Post like these make me believe that people are lazy. Learn to adapt, think a little harder. 99% of the there is a counter of some sort. Yes you have to use your brain.
No this isn’t supposed to be easy mode. Yes your supposed to have to think outside of the box…..

Straegen.2938:

You must run on a strange server because the ele mist stomp is one of the most common safe stomps I have seen in the game. It is also by far the best safe stomp in the game IMO.

You guys must be living in March, because the servers we face have all moved to the blindness/teleport/obstructed stomps and I have to tell you, as another engineer, our downed state is terrible enough without having to account for that bullkitten.

And yes, most Engineers I have talked to have moved away from Elixir S, because a self daze is a LOUSY skill for most situations. Frankly, I blame the elementalists for that one.

TheLaughingMan.4320:

A stomp is an attack, therefore thief should lose stealth. Many classes like warr, mes, need a target to use downed skills that affect the attacking player. Most skills which can counter a stealth stomp have a good chance of being on cd after a battle that takes more than 10 seconds.

THIS+1

Stealth stomping isnt a problem in itself. Stability, immunity guarentee a stomp aswell. Blind and Aegis also helps.

Problem with Stealth is, its quite abundant for a “certain” profession. If say an Elementalist wants to guarentee a stomp he has to blow a 1min cooldown to do it. the Thief uses a spamable ability, or something with a short cooldown, and secures the stomp.

Thieves would never kill anyone. As an engineer I have 3 aoe knockbacks, an interrupt, and a pull. Thieves don’t stealth stomp with me around. Also it’s painfully obvious when a thief is stealth stomping. Only inexperienced players allow this to happen.

Stealth stomping is fine, stability stomping is fine, shrink stomping is fine. They are all counterable (CC, Boon strip + CC, and interrupt before/after shrink) But there is one OP stomp, which is mist form, 100% cannot be countered. That’s what you should have made your thread about.

Are you actually complaining about stealth stomps? Thieves take damage in stealth, its not like they are invincible, any pull, knockback, push, can stop an invis stomp not to mention AoEing the area to damage the thief. If you lost a battle with a thief 1v1 and you think youre still gonna win in downed state, youre wrong. Why not complain about Engis elixir where they can’t be damaged at all or mist form stomps? How is stealth stomping any different than those 2?

I can’t speak for all class but warriors have no options.

yanoch.7051:

I can’t speak for all class but warriors have no options.

Hammer skills are full of knockbacks/knockdowns, and if you dont use hammer, 100 blades over a downed players body? All classes can counter a stealth stomp, too many people think its OP when in reality they just don’t know how to counter it.

Like i said before, if you’re worried about the stealth stomp in a 1v1 , you’re the downed player, not the thief. You lost that battle the moment you were downed.

Dan.2940:

Are you actually complaining about stealth stomps? Thieves take damage in stealth, its not like they are invincible, any pull, knockback, push, can stop an invis stomp not to mention AoEing the area to damage the thief. If you lost a battle with a thief 1v1 and you think youre still gonna win in downed state, youre wrong. Why not complain about Engis elixir where they can’t be damaged at all or mist form stomps? How is stealth stomping any different than those 2?

1. stealth is easily reapplied, not only that you can waste valuable time and resources blowing all your skills on a downed player trying to hit a stealthed thief that may or may not be there.
the theif can easily drop a blind field and spam heartseeker through it over and over, or he can do the same with a shortbow at a distance away. not to mention he can drop sr far away and cover a lot of ground in 10 seconds more if hes has stealth on heal or blinding powder or he’s perma stealthed.
2. a ele or eng has to drop an extremely valuable survival skill for 1 badge, its not like they cant spam invul or be perma invul.

stealth the way it is, is far more useful than 3 seconds of invul on a 75 sec CD.

Stealth stomp is so easy to counter compared to other stomping methods. Anyone with a knockback the moment they see a thief go for a stomp stealth can run up to the ally and hit the knockback. Thief goes flying and you save your friend.

Better yet is to just unload all your AOEs on top of your downed ally and stomp the thief for a rally.

I personally prefer stability stomp. It’s much more OP.

No, they should not.

the only thing that is different for a theif stealth is that they can use black powder and leap through it to stomp pretty much on demand. making it far more easier for them to use it to stomp with.
gaurdians can pop stand your ground for stability, but can they get stability from their weapon attacks? no. can eles get mist form off their weapons? no, can engis get shrunk from weapon finishers? no.
i think they should get revealed if the stealth they used to stomp came from a combo finisher, but not if it came from a utility skill such as shadow refuge, putting in line with the other classes.

“Stealth Stomp os so easy to counter compared to other stomping methiods”

Lioka qiao,

I Encourage you to post that same statement in their fourm and see thier quick responses

Hint- they will quiclky chase you away with that nonsense.

Seriosusly

I Encourage you to do so.

Dagraan.2854:

Dan.2940:

Are you actually complaining about stealth stomps? Thieves take damage in stealth, its not like they are invincible, any pull, knockback, push, can stop an invis stomp not to mention AoEing the area to damage the thief. If you lost a battle with a thief 1v1 and you think youre still gonna win in downed state, youre wrong. Why not complain about Engis elixir where they can’t be damaged at all or mist form stomps? How is stealth stomping any different than those 2?

1. stealth is easily reapplied, not only that you can waste valuable time and resources blowing all your skills on a downed player trying to hit a stealthed thief that may or may not be there.
the theif can easily drop a blind field and spam heartseeker through it over and over, or he can do the same with a shortbow at a distance away. not to mention he can drop sr far away and cover a lot of ground in 10 seconds more if hes has stealth on heal or blinding powder or he’s perma stealthed.
2. a ele or eng has to drop an extremely valuable survival skill for 1 badge, its not like they cant spam invul or be perma invul.

stealth the way it is, is far more useful than 3 seconds of invul on a 75 sec CD.

Ok, are we or are we not talking about stealth stomps and not just stealth in general?

Thieves can be annoying with their perma stealthing and high survive-ability, but that doesn’t mean that they are invincible, especially when stealth stomping… Blind fields only blinds anyone who steps inside of it, thieves can be knocked out of it and can still be AoEed… All of the situations you gave can be easily countered by someone who knows what they are doing. If the thief uses SR far away, an ally should be able to ress the downed player by the time the thief makes it back…

Now you’re saying that mist form and the Elixir may be on a high CD, however, they make you INVULNERABLE, meaning, if you cant stealth that downed ally or use some sort of temporary pick up, they are screwed, which is why the CD is so high. Stealth having so many counters does not need a high CD, and would make it near impossible for thieves to stomp anyone.

Also you mentioned Engis and Eles wasting a utility for stomping? It’s their choice based on the situation if they need to use it or not. Same goes for thief using blinding powder, SR, Shadowstep, are those wasted utilities too?

Burnfall.9573:

“Stealth Stomp os so easy to counter compared to other stomping methiods”

Lioka qiao,

I Encourage you to post that same statement in their fourm and see thier quick responses

Hint- they will quiclky chase you away with that nonsense.

Seriosusly

I Encourage you to do so.

You’re taking his sentence out of context though, he explains that “Stealth Stomp os so easy to counter compared to other stomping methiods” because in reality, they are easy to counter, but by posting that quote to the thief forum would make him seem like hes complaining about it when hes not…

I hardly ever play thief anymore, so im not even backing up the class like its my main or anything, i’ve encountered tons of thieves in WvW and sPvP, ill agree that perma stealth is ridiculous but stealth stomping? Nowhere near OP and does not need to be removed by any means.

Thieves should not lose stealth when going in a finisher. The finisher itself is an action and during it the thief does not make physical contact / damage until the kill is done. If anything – lose stealth on kill but I find this idea biased against players who don’t like playing against thieves. As mentioned earlier, there are plenty of things you can do counter this, and as stealth is a thieves special ability, why are we trying to punish them for using it?

better yet.. gw2 should lose downed state

Hurtappl.6405:

better yet.. gw2 should lose downed state

+1000000000000000000000

Doesn’t belong in WvW imo.. or atleast not as OP as it is right now.. too much health in downed state.

Hurtappl.6405:

better yet.. gw2 should lose downed state

I would be totally fine with this, but even if arenanet didnt want to go this far, make it so that if more than 1 person is downed, only the person that kills something (Not everyone that did damage to the target) gets up…. A whole zerg can rally off of 1 person dying… its just dumb.

Disagree with OP. Down state is already far to powerful against decently good and aware players, and makes 1v2 very difficult and 1v3 almost impossible. While 1v1 it’s not going to matter anyway.