Guild Wars 2

The Thief.

The most mobile class in the game
The class with the most and highest damage potential
The class that cannot be caught in combat or out of combat
The class with the best or close to the best talent synergy
The class with the (lets not lie here) overpowered Stealth mechanic
(perma in combat stealth anyone)
The class that is as easy to play as a warrior.

The class that offers NOTHING worth while to a group.
The class that is next to totally USELESS in a WvW zerg
The class that is Pretty much a leech in most large skirmish in WvW.
The class that is forced to Scout all the time because that is all they can offer.
The class that is forced to Kill quick or die by zerg
The class that is forced to roam solo or in a small group with other thieves, because they are forever alone and shunned by society and their mother doesn’t love them either.

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

And in a game mode where 1v1 doesn’t matter were still OP because we excel at 1v1. Good logic, right?

You are one of those few that understand our situation. We want more viable builds, but were not getting any :/

I don’t know what crack you all are smoking, but my thief brings a ton to the table, both in roaming AND zerg fights.

Good lord, you sound like rangers. Unbunch your panties, pull out your short bow, and blast / poison / damage / heal the crap out of things.

Direwind.8409:

The most mobile class in the game
The class with the most and highest damage potential
The class that cannot be caught in combat or out of combat
The class with the best or close to the best talent synergy
The class with the (lets not lie here) overpowered Stealth mechanic
(perma in combat stealth anyone)
The class that is as easy to play as a warrior.

1. Not the most mobile class in the game… at least not definitively.
2. Not the class with the highest damage potential (not even close as AoE rules in DPS)
3. I catch them all the time in and out of combat.
4. Guardian… seriously… guardian
5. Not the only class with stealth and the mesmer veil does it on a grand scale
6. Easy? Depends on the player. I find most classes to be pretty easy to play.

I still don’t understand why the thief gets such hate. Guardians kill WAY more players and are far more powerful in WvW. Thieves don’t even dominate in any one place. They can be frustrating on a rare occasion but are mediocre in 95% of the game and marginally powerful in the other 5%.

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Kincaidia.3192:

I don’t know what crack you all are smoking, but my thief brings a ton to the table, both in roaming AND zerg fights.

Good lord, you sound like rangers. Unbunch your panties, pull out your short bow, and blast / poison / damage / heal the crap out of things.

nope haven’t met a thief I would want over a >guardian, elem, Mesmer, warrior or even necro.

Direwind.8409:

Kincaidia.3192:

I don’t know what crack you all are smoking, but my thief brings a ton to the table, both in roaming AND zerg fights.

Good lord, you sound like rangers. Unbunch your panties, pull out your short bow, and blast / poison / damage / heal the crap out of things.

nope haven’t met a thief I would want over a >guardian, elem, Mesmer, warrior or even necro.

I’m sure you can agree every class has its place in a zerg. Classes like Guardians Warriors necros you want to stack a lot of them, you want a good thief or 2 in your zerg, they just aren’t a class you want tons. If the thief is good and knows what to do they can be very helpful to a zerg.

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

The WvW area really does need a Class QQ section.

Zikory.6871:

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

I agree they are not useless but they are also not one of the strongest. Their blast finisher is nice but doesn’t compare to guardian, memser, ele, necro and others utility. Even the ranger ranks above them in some circles thanks to healing spring.

Great. Another thread about thieves.
Could we talk about retaliation instead?

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Here is point and fact, when forming a WvW group to take over an area you discount the thieves, because they are tag along class, offering very little.

When forming a WvW group to harras or troll the larger force you get a group of thieves to do it, they will roam and cause chaos while the main force actually accomplishes some thing.

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Yay, just what every thief wants to be a mobile blast finisher.

Renxian.6982:

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Yay, just what every thief wants to be a mobile blast finisher.

Could be said about Mesmer and Eles too. Walkig portal/vials and walking static fields and “DRAGON TOOTH THAT AC NOWWWWZZZZZ!”

EDIT: Every class/build has its place in WvW. IMO That is the best job a thieve could do in a zerg on zerg engagement.

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

The WvW area really does need a Class QQ section.

Zikory.6871:

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

I agree they are not useless but they are also not one of the strongest. Their blast finisher is nice but doesn’t compare to guardian, memser, ele, necro and others utility. Even the ranger ranks above them in some circles thanks to healing spring.

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

Zikory.6871:

Renxian.6982:

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Yay, just what every thief wants to be a mobile blast finisher.

Could be said about Mesmer and Eles too. Walkig portal/vials and walking static fields and “DRAGON TOOTH THAT AC NOWWWWZZZZZ!”

Null Field, Feedback, Into the Void, Portal, Dragon Tooth, Meteor Shower, Water Fields, Lava Fount or whatever it’s called, Ice fields, Static fields, that earth skill that spikes up and causes bleeding or whatever. And that is just the skills I know have use with my 0 knowledge of those two classes. Seems a lot more varied than:

4,2,4,2,4,2,4,2,4,2 LOOK GUYZ IM HELPIN!

Renxian.6982:

Zikory.6871:

Renxian.6982:

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Yay, just what every thief wants to be a mobile blast finisher.

Could be said about Mesmer and Eles too. Walkig portal/vials and walking static fields and “DRAGON TOOTH THAT AC NOWWWWZZZZZ!”

Null Field, Feedback, Into the Void, Portal, Dragon Tooth, Meteor Shower, Water Fields, Lava Fount or whatever it’s called, Ice fields, Static fields, that earth skill that spikes up and causes bleeding or whatever. And that is just the skills I know have use with my 0 knowledge of those two classes. Seems a lot more varied than:

4,2,4,2,4,2,4,2,4,2 LOOK GUYZ IM HELPIN!

You forgot to mention the occasional dagger storm x] Yeah, I’d go for roaming and trolling people instead.

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Heavy armor users don’t have a big problem with thieves because they don’t take a large dmg spam, but if you run with light armor and you not have reaction time 0,000001s you will have a bad time. WvW thieves are much harder to defeat than those in pvp mode ;/

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

I agree with you, I’m only saying that there is a place for thieves in zergs. While it might not be as glorious as other classes the job is still there and its helpful. Also as you noted a thief and a ranger water field can keep a group topped off like no one else.

Zikory.6871:

Renxian.6982:

Zikory.6871:

More Thief QQ? Can you keep this in the thief section please. We complain about Badges of honor and JP griefers here!

Copied from the other thief QQ thread.

PS: Not USELESS in a zerg at all. Just cluster bomb alone makes them one of the strongest utility classes. Don’t pigeon hole your self into a cookie cutter build. Thieves are quite useful out side of doing just damage.

Yay, just what every thief wants to be a mobile blast finisher.

Could be said about Mesmer and Eles too. Walkig portal/vials and walking static fields and “DRAGON TOOTH THAT AC NOWWWWZZZZZ!”

EDIT: Every class/build has its place in WvW. IMO That is the best job a thieve could do in a zerg on zerg engagement.

Woe is me, I am so useful in WvW that I can’t just go farm skelks!

WOE IS ME!

Direwind.8409:

The Thief.

The most mobile class in the game
The class with the most and highest damage potential
The class that cannot be caught in combat or out of combat
The class with the best or close to the best talent synergy
The class with the (lets not lie here) overpowered Stealth mechanic
(perma in combat stealth anyone)
The class that is as easy to play as a warrior.

The class that offers NOTHING worth while to a group.
The class that is next to totally USELESS in a WvW zerg
The class that is Pretty much a leech in most large skirmish in WvW.
The class that is forced to Scout all the time because that is all they can offer.
The class that is forced to Kill quick or die by zerg
The class that is forced to roam solo or in a small group with other thieves, because they are forever alone and shunned by society and their mother doesn’t love them either.

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Stealth is working as intended and thieves can do very well in groups. Constant AoE poison fields which if your blasting them or if the thief is traited for it applys the recently buffed weakness. AoE bleed/cripple via caltrops and daggerstorm(which also reflects projectiles). Smokescreen is arguably the second best defense for groups against ranged enemies. Venomshare is pretty strong when you choose them wisely. AoE stealth is bad thing since when by the way?

The class that can definitely be caught in combat.
The class with the stealth mechanic that is only overpowered if your enemy is dimwitted.
The class that is is as easy to play as every class in the game.
The class that everyone wants on their side.
The class that is used to finish off the downed/low health that you walked right past while mashing 11111111 …..lol should I continue?

Learn the class before bashing it next time….Thieves are not hard to kill, D/P is the only thief that gives a hard time right now, simply because of the daze spammers…..if you have trouble with any other weaponset than you need to practice and get better, bottomline.

This kind of threads are useless, IMO. You just give fuel to AN/thief fanboys that will tell you “thiefs are not hard to kill, L2P / stealth+regen+cond removal is not OP, you need to L2P”.

Copied from the other ‘QQ’ thread:

aelflune.8590:

…in case anyone is mistaken (and the chances of that are very high here), my posts are not simply QQing about thieves. I don’t die very often to thieves. I just think that it would be better for everyone if the class is balanced for other roles besides stealth and burst. Yes, I or anyone could become PvP gods and kill multiple stealthed thieves trying to gank, but the problem cannot be reduced to l2p. The problem is that a lot of people don’t seem to find the current situation fun on either side, whether it’s the average player getting ganked by an invisible thief or a thief finding himself not being able to contribute as much as others in larger fights and dungeons. And the question to thief players is do you want to improve the game or do you just want to laugh as you troll less skilled players?

But thief players have shown time and again that they’re not really interested in balance. They just want to gank and troll other players and then say l2p.

So I’ll just take the opposite position and say “nerf pls”. If it doesn’t happen, I can still go on with my life, but I will definitely be very gleeful if the nerfs come.

So much thief hate around when thief isn’t even one of the better 1v1 classes (unless it’s low skill vs low skill)… and thief is unable to contribute as much as the other classes who can wreck a thief in a 1v1.

Guardians are by far the best class for WvW.

Proof taken from here

This guy (admittedly he has to be good or the gods must favour him or something), playing a Guardian has a KD ratio of 1:158 and has an average of 97 kills per hour played. That is some SERIOUS survivability.

My point is thieves are annoying yes, but they are far from a one man army.

“I don’t want to survive, I want to live!”.

I thought I had read everything, but then a thread like this appears and… oh man it opens new horizons …

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Guardian and thief always point finger at each other reagarding OP class. After I try each prof myself, I think WvW is only about 3 class atm, namely guardian, thief, and ele. The rest are expandable/redundent (not even mesmer is needed anymore).

For example, for a small group, you can have 3 thieves (2 offensive 1 support), 2 quardian, and 1 ele. This is all you need to wipe any small group with ease. If you need a zerg, just have this same setup x N. It can handle any zerg. This 3 prof can do anything other prof can do in any situation (with the right utilities/skills of course).

Mesmer is good for porting, but is not even necessary if using the above said setups. Since you can obtain any objective with the above setup, you can take your time to do anything without needing any port.

If 2 skill group fight each with the same setup, the one with less mistakes win. So the current wvw is built upon thief(zerk, sup), guardian(tank,sup), and ele(cc,aoe). And is pretty much end game setup imo. The other profs are just nice to have. :P

I can’t believe people still cry about thieves. mug damage was nerfed, quickness was nerfed, heartseeker was nerfed. If you still can’t react to a thief ganking you, the thief is not really the problem. If they hit very hard with their berzerker initial burst, you can hit them equally as hard in the follow up moves. If you got killed by the initial burst then you are doing something wrong.

BBMouse.6510:

Guardian and thief always point finger at each other reagarding OP class. After I try each prof myself, I think WvW is only about 3 class atm, namely guardian, thief, and ele. The rest are expandable/redundent (not even mesmer is needed anymore).

For example, for a small group, you can have 3 thieves (2 offensive 1 support), 2 quardian, and 1 ele. This is all you need to wipe any small group with ease. If you need a zerg, just have this same setup x N. It can handle any zerg. This 3 prof can do anything other prof can do in any situation (with the right utilities/skills of course).

I run solo or in a small group (5 or less) daily since release. We fight groups of 20+ guys and we end up winning lots of those fights. Lately we stumbled into a new party composition that destroys stuff so fast while still keeping alive, it’s ridiculous. We do have a guardian, but normally no ele or thief. We tried running 2 or 3 thieves and while its decent and comic, its no where near as effective and easy as what we have now.
And what gives us problems is not thieves, eles or guardians either. Necros however…

The problem with this thread is that OP is only complaining and not providing any solution to the problem.

Then again, OP does know what a problem is. I just hope Anet devs would look at the QQ FROM BOTH SIDES and perhaps play a thief to know the difference between whakittens like on paper and how it REALLY works.

When will this class start being useful elsewhere anet???

Zacchary.6183:

The problem with this thread is that OP is only complaining and not providing any solution to the problem.

Then again, OP does know what a problem is. I just hope Anet devs would look at the QQ FROM BOTH SIDES and perhaps play a thief to know the difference between whakittens like on paper and how it REALLY works.

When will this class start being useful elsewhere anet???

I think they gave up on it tbh. I mean that in all seriousness.

nirvana.8245:

Zacchary.6183:

The problem with this thread is that OP is only complaining and not providing any solution to the problem.

Then again, OP does know what a problem is. I just hope Anet devs would look at the QQ FROM BOTH SIDES and perhaps play a thief to know the difference between whakittens like on paper and how it REALLY works.

When will this class start being useful elsewhere anet???

I think they gave up on it tbh. I mean that in all seriousness.

I don’t think they gave up but I do believe they are going in the wrong direction.

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field. Dat healing turret heals you more than healing spring (5040 compared to healing springs 4920) and gives half of the amount you heal to 5 other guys too (2520 hp) compared to healing spring only healing you and your pet. healing spring has a 30 sec cooldown, healing turret has a 15 sec cooldown when you pick it up .(who doesnt XD) They both give perma regen. healing spring cleanses more conditions than healing turret but you are required to stand inside the aoe to get this benefit, which brings me to my next point. the aoe range of healing springs water field is a tiny 240, you go stationary in that and you are probably dead vs zerg. Were as healing turetts aoe range is a massive 480 (double healing spring) so people can move around on the battle field and this thing will catch blast finishers all over the place and therefore gets off way way more combos. This is all before taking traits into consideration as well but i have ranted enough for one day so just to sumerise rangers get one trait that effects healing spring, engineers have a hole support healer build that is amazing in wvw. enough said. Just to say i am not dissing rangers. They have an amazing survival support build for wvw that essentualy mass cripple/ chill/ emobilizes/ roots an enemy zerg, Numerous roaming builds and just plenty to bring to the table. Sadly healing builds are not one of these things.

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Singer.8740:

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field.

Healing spring is also not susceptible to damage so it is a great skill to drop at the feet of people using siege who are under fire. Its regen is six stacks instead of two. Healing Spring removes up to 5 conditions per player standing in it… also useful for door siege. Healing spring is better for blast finishers because it is up a full 15s not 1s every 3s.

Not saying the healing turret is better or worse just saying Healing Spring is a great water field and at least on par with turret.

Renxian.6982:

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Completely not true. Any ranged skills with the exception of ground targeted AoEs are required to have a target. Additionally, when we use skills to block a thief that is invisible, that does not trigger the revealed condition.

In other words, stealth until you actually hit us. And if you are behind us when you decide to use your backstab, our melee wouldn’t be hitting you anyway if we were swinging wildly in what we thought was your direction.

So it isn’t just no targeting, it is also combat status that can’t be observed, while the devs tell my profession that I can’t perma hide my kit back packs (hobo sacks) because they are the only thing that tell opponents what weapons/tools I am using; thieves not only get to clear the target, the called target and leave combat, but also get to watch our status (are we blocking? are we swapping to another weapon set?) and while they are resetting the fight can wait to isolate one of us to grief some more.

I don’t mind that they excel at 1v1 and certain jobs are built for thieves, it is the mentality that the class attracts sometimes that makes it more frustrating.

lunyboy.8672:

Renxian.6982:

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Completely not true. Any ranged skills with the exception of ground targeted AoEs are required to have a target. Additionally, when we use skills to block a thief that is invisible, that does not trigger the revealed condition.

In other words, stealth until you actually hit us. And if you are behind us when you decide to use your backstab, our melee wouldn’t be hitting you anyway if we were swinging wildly in what we thought was your direction.

So it isn’t just no targeting, it is also combat status that can’t be observed, while the devs tell my profession that I can’t perma hide my kit back packs (hobo sacks) because they are the only thing that tell opponents what weapons/tools I am using; thieves not only get to clear the target, the called target and leave combat, but also get to watch our status (are we blocking? are we swapping to another weapon set?) and while they are resetting the fight can wait to isolate one of us to grief some more.

I don’t mind that they excel at 1v1 and certain jobs are built for thieves, it is the mentality that the class attracts sometimes that makes it more frustrating.

The mentality of people who fight against thieves is just as frustrating. Seeing threads every day where people act like thieves are permanently invisible guardians with a million damage unblockable nuke.

Resetting the fight is stupidly easy on several classes. Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Even Warrior can do it. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it only lvl 21. Any class with access to solid mobility skills can reset. Ranger and Warrior have really low cds on mobility skills that allow for resetting if done right. The only difference is that the thief mobility skills are less susceptible to immobilize due to how shadow step works. Admittedly this is powerful, but dodging in and out of fights isn’t unique to thieves. People just get annoyed because thieves tend to be dedicated roamers and are far more likely to return and try to kill you again. I understand that that is ANNOYING but it is not inherently overpowered.

Every thief spec is different. The highest stealth uptime builds come at the cost of other stats, whether that be damage or condition clearing or whatever, because they need initiative regen.

Those thieves running instagib combo builds sacrifice a ton for raw damage. (Examples include giving up the SA traitline, which has all those stealth regen effects, and sometimes their utility slots for signets to take advantage of the signets of power trait).

We’re really not different than other classes, everything we do comes with choices. People just don’t want to see that.

I daresay many professions—including ranger and ele—can be just as slippery. :p L2P

Renxian.6982:

lunyboy.8672:

Renxian.6982:

Abrilete.1439:

Fenrir.6183:

Direwind.8409:

Tbh while I find stealth stupidly broken and overpowered all else seem like a bad trade off for a game that is group pvp oriented

Please explain to us how stealth is stupidly broken when all it does is hide you from the eyes of your opponents and doesn’t prevent any damage nor CC…

Many skills require target to hit. If you can’t target the stealthed oponent, you can’t damage/CC him. As I see it, that prevents damage and CC. A lot.

Sure, and a large amount of skills and all basic attacks can be used without a target. I guess cherry picking examples is cool too though.

Completely not true. Any ranged skills with the exception of ground targeted AoEs are required to have a target. Additionally, when we use skills to block a thief that is invisible, that does not trigger the revealed condition.

In other words, stealth until you actually hit us. And if you are behind us when you decide to use your backstab, our melee wouldn’t be hitting you anyway if we were swinging wildly in what we thought was your direction.

So it isn’t just no targeting, it is also combat status that can’t be observed, while the devs tell my profession that I can’t perma hide my kit back packs (hobo sacks) because they are the only thing that tell opponents what weapons/tools I am using; thieves not only get to clear the target, the called target and leave combat, but also get to watch our status (are we blocking? are we swapping to another weapon set?) and while they are resetting the fight can wait to isolate one of us to grief some more.

I don’t mind that they excel at 1v1 and certain jobs are built for thieves, it is the mentality that the class attracts sometimes that makes it more frustrating.

The mentality of people who fight against thieves is just as frustrating. Seeing threads every day where people act like thieves are permanently invisible guardians with a million damage unblockable nuke.

Resetting the fight is stupidly easy on several classes. Ele, Mesmer, Ranger, Even Warrior can do it. I reset fights all the time on my ranger and it only lvl 21. Any class with access to solid mobility skills can reset. Ranger and Warrior have really low cds on mobility skills that allow for resetting if done right. The only difference is that the thief mobility skills are less susceptible to immobilize due to how shadow step works. Admittedly this is powerful, but dodging in and out of fights isn’t unique to thieves. People just get annoyed because thieves tend to be dedicated roamers and are far more likely to return and try to kill you again. I understand that that is ANNOYING but it is not inherently overpowered.

Every thief spec is different. The highest stealth uptime builds come at the cost of other stats, whether that be damage or condition clearing or whatever, because they need initiative regen.

Those thieves running instagib combo builds sacrifice a ton for raw damage. (Examples include giving up the SA traitline, which has all those stealth regen effects, and sometimes their utility slots for signets to take advantage of the signets of power trait).

We’re really not different than other classes, everything we do comes with choices. People just don’t want to see that.

My GL is a thief, and I have one that I play sometimes when my wrist hurts, so I do understand what you are trying to say. What you aren’t seeing is that the stealth PLUS the mobility PLUS the damage are OP.

Plenty of other professions have mobility, sure, a few other professions have access to stealth (mine does, for like 2-6 seconds every min), but none can evade a mob while picking off individuals like a thief. Eles have the mobility and survival, warriors have the mobility and damage but not stealth survivability, Mesmers have lower mobility but better survival against small groups and quite decent damage.

I will agree about guardians, though, as being way too overpowered.

Something else a bit lost here is that players who specialize in the thief class frequently get far more solo/skirmish experience than other players. It is hard to quantify just how powerful that experience is. This is compounded by the relatively low diversity of builds in most classes.

I know how a fight is going to go in about 10 seconds usually and I suspect most players with a few hundred hours in WvW feel the same. It is rare when someone hits me with something I have never seen before.

Stranger still is the recent nerfs on other classes. I know some of it is for sPvP balance but they are really hurting those classes solo WvW play. Remember when mesmers were like a grenade with the pin pulled solo? Even the RRR ranger pet build in the right hands dished it out.

Thread number one hundred related to thieves.
Let’s think on it….
Already stated that thief is in the average in pvp, several classes are better duellers.
Already stated that there are not thieves in MvM dedicated guilds.
Already stated that thieves are below the average in pvp dungeons.

Even in this situation stealth annoys everybody…if someone disengages running is fine, but if it is by means of stealth is a crime.
Fine mates.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Singer.8740:

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field. Dat healing turret heals you more than healing spring (5040 compared to healing springs 4920) and gives half of the amount you heal to 5 other guys too (2520 hp) compared to healing spring only healing you and your pet. healing spring has a 30 sec cooldown, healing turret has a 15 sec cooldown when you pick it up .(who doesnt XD) They both give perma regen. healing spring cleanses more conditions than healing turret but you are required to stand inside the aoe to get this benefit, which brings me to my next point. the aoe range of healing springs water field is a tiny 240, you go stationary in that and you are probably dead vs zerg. Were as healing turetts aoe range is a massive 480 (double healing spring) so people can move around on the battle field and this thing will catch blast finishers all over the place and therefore gets off way way more combos. This is all before taking traits into consideration as well but i have ranted enough for one day so just to sumerise rangers get one trait that effects healing spring, engineers have a hole support healer build that is amazing in wvw. enough said. Just to say i am not dissing rangers. They have an amazing survival support build for wvw that essentualy mass cripple/ chill/ emobilizes/ roots an enemy zerg, Numerous roaming builds and just plenty to bring to the table. Sadly healing builds are not one of these things.

Well, Healing turret isn’t a water field. (unless the wiki is wrong) So that’s why healing spring is the best water field in the game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

The thief is a one man army and yet the army wants nothing to do with them. Look at the current meta in WvW. Thieves have no place in any of it outside of killing dolyaks and triggering keep doors. They are great roamers, no doubt about it. But better roamers than Elementalists, Guardians, Mesmers, or Rangers? Nah.

As powerful as stealth is, the thief class some how isn’t any better off than half the class out there in overall power. And certainly no where near the other classes when it comes time to actually earning a spot in a group.

Zikory.6871:

Singer.8740:

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field. Dat healing turret heals you more than healing spring (5040 compared to healing springs 4920) and gives half of the amount you heal to 5 other guys too (2520 hp) compared to healing spring only healing you and your pet. healing spring has a 30 sec cooldown, healing turret has a 15 sec cooldown when you pick it up .(who doesnt XD) They both give perma regen. healing spring cleanses more conditions than healing turret but you are required to stand inside the aoe to get this benefit, which brings me to my next point. the aoe range of healing springs water field is a tiny 240, you go stationary in that and you are probably dead vs zerg. Were as healing turetts aoe range is a massive 480 (double healing spring) so people can move around on the battle field and this thing will catch blast finishers all over the place and therefore gets off way way more combos. This is all before taking traits into consideration as well but i have ranted enough for one day so just to sumerise rangers get one trait that effects healing spring, engineers have a hole support healer build that is amazing in wvw. enough said. Just to say i am not dissing rangers. They have an amazing survival support build for wvw that essentualy mass cripple/ chill/ emobilizes/ roots an enemy zerg, Numerous roaming builds and just plenty to bring to the table. Sadly healing builds are not one of these things.

Well, Healing turret isn’t a water field. (unless the wiki is wrong) So that’s why healing spring is the best water field in the game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

I main a Turret Engineer, so the Healing Turret is pretty much my go-to Heal skill.

That said, just to clear things up: It’s not a constant water field, though it does have an Overcharge (sequence skill only usable while Turret is on the field) that creates a short-term one (15-second cooldown, not sure about duration of the field) and the Toolbelt skill creates a short-term water field around the user, as well. Also, detonating the Healing Turret is popular for A) damage – Turret detonations are some of the highest direct-damage effects available to the Engineer – and blast finishing the water field for an AoE heal.

Zikory.6871:

Singer.8740:

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field. Dat healing turret heals you more than healing spring (5040 compared to healing springs 4920) and gives half of the amount you heal to 5 other guys too (2520 hp) compared to healing spring only healing you and your pet. healing spring has a 30 sec cooldown, healing turret has a 15 sec cooldown when you pick it up .(who doesnt XD) They both give perma regen. healing spring cleanses more conditions than healing turret but you are required to stand inside the aoe to get this benefit, which brings me to my next point. the aoe range of healing springs water field is a tiny 240, you go stationary in that and you are probably dead vs zerg. Were as healing turetts aoe range is a massive 480 (double healing spring) so people can move around on the battle field and this thing will catch blast finishers all over the place and therefore gets off way way more combos. This is all before taking traits into consideration as well but i have ranted enough for one day so just to sumerise rangers get one trait that effects healing spring, engineers have a hole support healer build that is amazing in wvw. enough said. Just to say i am not dissing rangers. They have an amazing survival support build for wvw that essentualy mass cripple/ chill/ emobilizes/ roots an enemy zerg, Numerous roaming builds and just plenty to bring to the table. Sadly healing builds are not one of these things.

Well, Healing turret isn’t a water field. (unless the wiki is wrong) So that’s why healing spring is the best water field in the game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

The 2 are not really comparable, at least, not as has been stated on the boards thus far. You must “overcharge” the Healing turret, and it must survive the process to generate a 1-second-long water field, and that is where you get the second, sharable, half of the heal. You can basically dial-a-heal with a decent amount of practice, but the BASE heal is about 2500, on a 15-second cool down.

Healing spring is a full heal (5k)/regen(18seconds total on everyone in the field) with a 15 second water field… which is ridiculous. How many blast finishers (or leaps) can your teammates drop into it in that time? For over 1k each?

As I said, they are apples and oranges.

lunyboy.8672:

Zikory.6871:

Singer.8740:

Straegen.2938:

Zikory.6871:

IMO the other classes blast finishers are much more useful at the start of a engagement then a thieves cluster bomb. Having all your classes save/waste blast finishers anytime you need might/healing/retal is quite wasteful. Having thieves ready to blast these fields give other classes much more control over the fight.

I am not debating that a thief isn’t useful in a zerg, I think it is but it is not a strong utility zerg class. Their base mechanic (stealth) is mostly useless outside of skirmishing.

Mesmers are clearly the utility winners, but Necros condition management, Guardians everything (stability, retaliation, boon-a-palooza) and Eles pack siege capability and fantastic aura sharing are far higher on the list than the thief. Throwing a bone to the Ranger, they have the best water field in the game.

Sadly the ranger does not even get a bone because engineers have the best water field. Dat healing turret heals you more than healing spring (5040 compared to healing springs 4920) and gives half of the amount you heal to 5 other guys too (2520 hp) compared to healing spring only healing you and your pet. healing spring has a 30 sec cooldown, healing turret has a 15 sec cooldown when you pick it up .(who doesnt XD) They both give perma regen. healing spring cleanses more conditions than healing turret but you are required to stand inside the aoe to get this benefit, which brings me to my next point. the aoe range of healing springs water field is a tiny 240, you go stationary in that and you are probably dead vs zerg. Were as healing turetts aoe range is a massive 480 (double healing spring) so people can move around on the battle field and this thing will catch blast finishers all over the place and therefore gets off way way more combos. This is all before taking traits into consideration as well but i have ranted enough for one day so just to sumerise rangers get one trait that effects healing spring, engineers have a hole support healer build that is amazing in wvw. enough said. Just to say i am not dissing rangers. They have an amazing survival support build for wvw that essentualy mass cripple/ chill/ emobilizes/ roots an enemy zerg, Numerous roaming builds and just plenty to bring to the table. Sadly healing builds are not one of these things.

Well, Healing turret isn’t a water field. (unless the wiki is wrong) So that’s why healing spring is the best water field in the game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

The 2 are not really comparable, at least, not as has been stated on the boards thus far. You must “overcharge” the Healing turret, and it must survive the process to generate a 1-second-long water field, and that is where you get the second, sharable, half of the heal. You can basically dial-a-heal with a decent amount of practice, but the BASE heal is about 2500, on a 15-second cool down.

Healing spring is a full heal (5k)/regen(18seconds total on everyone in the field) with a 15 second water field… which is ridiculous. How many blast finishers (or leaps) can your teammates drop into it in that time? For over 1k each?

As I said, they are apples and oranges.

As a thief, 5 before I run out of Init.. not specced into Init either.

Zikory.6871:

Well, Healing turret isn’t a water field. (unless the wiki is wrong) So that’s why healing spring is the best water field in the game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

The turret isn’t but both the automated (Regenerating Mist) and the manual (Cleansing Burst) abilities from it are. Regenerating Mist fires every 3 seconds but the water field only lasts 1 second so it isn’t nearly as reliable as Healing Spring for blast finishers.

It is a good ability and one can argue in some scenarios better than healing spring, but IMO healing spring is still the best water field.

Only a noob would say a thief has nothing to bring to a zerg fight. lol so yes they are sill op at almost everything but high lvl dungeon farming, and lol if thats your prefered play style choice then why choose a thief to farm lol

Direwind.8409:

The Thief.

The class that is next to totally USELESS in a WvW zerg

They have the fastest blast finisher and massive aoe i have seen cluster bomb hit 6k+ on my theif. Dagger storm can put out some serious damage. Their also quite useful to res downed players in stealth.